Abp moc

[LADoc00]

Has anyone reviewed the ABP MOC requirements for 2009??

HOLY CRAP. This is absurd! And its retroactive to 2005.


Summary:
4 parts (4 parts WTF?!)...
1.) full documentation of privileges...what if you dont have privileges at the time? you are screwed?! LMAO...

2.) retesting...okay I knew this was coming but they added 35 cat1 HOURS per year, documented every 2 years! of CME. HOLY CRAP.

3.) Cognitive Expertise...lmao

4.) evaluation of performance...not retesting the exam, actual PEER EVALUATIONS! What?! WHAT??!!

this is LUNACY. Christ....

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[Pathwrath]

I'm surprised they didn't follow CAP's perennial pet project and also require "clinical rotations".

 

[112641]

Has anyone reviewed the ABP MOC requirements for 2009??

HOLY CRAP. This is absurd! And its retroactive to 2005.

WE HAVE TO VOTE THESE PEOPLE OUT OF OFFICE, like now.

Summary:
4 parts (4 parts WTF?!)...
1.) full documentation of privileges...what if you dont have privileges at the time? you are screwed?! LMAO...

2.) retesting...okay I knew this was coming but they added 35 cat1 HOURS per year, documented every 2 years! of CME. HOLY CRAP.

3.) Cognitive Expertise...lmao

4.) evaluation of performance...not retesting the exam, actual PEER EVALUATIONS! What?! WHAT??!!

this is LUNACY. Christ....

By "we" do you mean all of the trainees who are coming out of residency/fellowships and into practice in the next few years or do you mean all the attendings who were practicing for a while and had an opportunity to prevent them getting power in the first place?

 

[djmd]

By "we" do you mean all of the trainees who are coming out of residency/fellowships and into practice in the next few years or do you mean all the attendings who were practicing for a while and had an opportunity to prevent them getting power in the first place?

woooo snarky....

 

[yaah]

It is unnecessarily complicated. I was trying to read through it a few weeks ago and I gave up.

 

[Nilf]

Has anyone reviewed the ABP MOC requirements for 2009??

HOLY CRAP. This is absurd! And its retroactive to 2005.

WE HAVE TO VOTE THESE PEOPLE OUT OF OFFICE, like now.

Summary:
4 parts (4 parts WTF?!)...
1.) full documentation of privileges...what if you dont have privileges at the time? you are screwed?! LMAO...

2.) retesting...okay I knew this was coming but they added 35 cat1 HOURS per year, documented every 2 years! of CME. HOLY CRAP.

3.) Cognitive Expertise...lmao

4.) evaluation of performance...not retesting the exam, actual PEER EVALUATIONS! What?! WHAT??!!

this is LUNACY. Christ....

wow... just wow... And here is the kicker in #4: one of the evaluations must be from "technologist or pathologist’s assistant who works with the diplomate in his/her practice and is familiar with his/her professional activities". There you have it. We'll be evaluated by technologists and PAs.

So we have to retake boards every 10 years or so... It's a 'closed book' exam... So let's say you work in academia and all you sign out is skin. Or you work in a mill and all you see is prostates... You don't see much of anything else... So every ten years you have to relearn all the stuff about forensics and heme? Please correct me on this one.

 

[LADoc00]

this is totally hienous now that I really read through it.

~35 hours per year of CME, essentially a whole week of potential income gone
~10 of the hours MUST be self assessment modules, ABMS is of course willing to selling you for an astronomical fee
~the examination is well, boards part deux, a straight round kick in the nuts from Chuck Norris
~the attestation of "interpersonal skills" is laughable at best, insulting and stereotyping at worst, and this is coming from our own organization.

Numerous problems arose just by reading it,
For one, they cannot, by their own by bylaws and charter, determine a physician's licensure and scope of practice, yet can place on you on probation? With what effect?!

The fact they require to be licensed in a US state or in Canada is ridiculous, what if I was pathologist in Haiti, Dubai, Saudi Arabia etc??

The big kicker: you HAVE to be on the medical staff of a hospital. No way around it, meaning you cannot have an outpatient only pathology business and be certified by the ABP. This is beyond huge, this is gamebreaking. You cannot, under these rules, do the following:
~have an outpatient FNA clinic as your sole employment
~do office dermpath only
~be otherwise employed by a free standing POD lab as your sole source of income
This is beyond the pale big, digest this for a moment, this utterly alters the landscape of the pathology job market post 2006, permenantly. No one I have yet talked to is fully grasping this aside from a few business savvy types. This doesnt gently alter many dermpath, GU and GI business models, it OBLITERATES them.

Overall the cost of the MOC program for pathologists is FLIPPING HUGE, on the order of more than $10,000/year at least, meaning if you got a time limited cert you are at a business disadvantage vs. the grandfathered crowd on the order of at least low 5 figures.

Holy crap is all I can spew forth at the moment.

 

[listeriaismfb]

Has anyone reviewed the ABP MOC requirements for 2009??

HOLY CRAP. This is absurd! And its retroactive to 2005.

WE HAVE TO VOTE THESE PEOPLE OUT OF OFFICE, like now.

Summary:
4 parts (4 parts WTF?!)...
1.) full documentation of privileges...what if you dont have privileges at the time? you are screwed?! LMAO...

2.) retesting...okay I knew this was coming but they added 35 cat1 HOURS per year, documented every 2 years! of CME. HOLY CRAP.

3.) Cognitive Expertise...lmao

4.) evaluation of performance...not retesting the exam, actual PEER EVALUATIONS! What?! WHAT??!!

this is LUNACY. Christ....

They spell out some of each of the particulars of each facet of MOC in this ppt http://www.abpath.org/MOCWeissPres2.ppt

 

[listeriaismfb]

http://cme.medscape.com/pathology

Free online CME, if anyone is interested.

 

[LADoc00]

After a night of contemplation,
I think is HUGELY good for your typical hospital based pathology group in competing against PODs and dermpath office based practices.

I retract my statement about getting rid of the ABP leadership, there is a subtle stroke of genius behind this.

 

[trent05]

this is totally hienous now that I really read through it.

~35 hours per year of CME, essentially a whole week of potential income gone
~10 of the hours MUST be self assessment modules, ABMS is of course willing to selling you for an astronomical fee
~the examination is well, boards part deux, a straight round kick in the nuts from Chuck Norris
~the attestation of "interpersonal skills" is laughable at best, insulting and stereotyping at worst, and this is coming from our own organization.

Numerous problems arose just by reading it,
For one, they cannot, by their own by bylaws and charter, determine a physician's licensure and scope of practice, yet can place on you on probation? With what effect?!

The fact they require to be licensed in a US state or in Canada is ridiculous, what if I was pathologist in Haiti, Dubai, Saudi Arabia etc??

The big kicker: you HAVE to be on the medical staff of a hospital. No way around it, meaning you cannot have an outpatient only pathology business and be certified by the ABP. This is beyond huge, this is gamebreaking. You cannot, under these rules, do the following:
~have an outpatient FNA clinic as your sole employment
~do office dermpath only
~be otherwise employed by a free standing POD lab as your sole source of incomeThis is beyond the pale big, digest this for a moment, this utterly alters the landscape of the pathology job market post 2006, permenantly. No one I have yet talked to is fully grasping this aside from a few business savvy types. This doesnt gently alter many dermpath, GU and GI business models, it OBLITERATES them.
Overall the cost of the MOC program for pathologists is FLIPPING HUGE, on the order of more than $10,000/year at least, meaning if you got a time limited cert you are at a business disadvantage vs. the grandfathered crowd on the order of at least low 5 figures.

Holy crap is all I can spew forth at the moment.

It reads "Documentation of medical staff membership and privileges or, if not applicable, scope of practice"

The way I read it this just means that if you don't have hospital privileges than you have to document your scope of practice. For someone at a dermpath lab, this would just mean that they would have to document that derm-path lab setting as their scope of practice. I think this will have no effect on the free standing labs.

 

[Nilf]

After a night of contemplation,
I think is HUGELY good for your typical hospital based pathology group in competing against PODs and dermpath office based practices.

I retract my statement about getting rid of the ABP leadership, there is a subtle stroke of genius behind this.

I think you're reading too closely into this and seeing too much conspiracy I spoke with my director about this; the way he sees this, if you work at a podlab or mill, you just send ABP a paper that says just that. ABP rubberstamps it, and the show will go on. I don't think this is as gamebreaking as you make it.

 

[Pathwrath]

I think you're reading too closely into this and seeing too much conspiracy I spoke with my director about this; the way he sees this, if you work at a podlab or mill, you just send ABP a paper that says just that. ABP rubberstamps it, and the show will go on. I don't think this is as gamebreaking as you make it.

I agree. It would be completely out of character for the ABP to get involved in the podlab/biopsy mill crisis. As long as you PAY THE MOC FEE and jump through the assorted hoops, you're in.

It is counterintuitive for the ABP to refuse money.

 

[Pathwrath]

Plus, all the bogus MOC requirements are classic ABP--remember the tedious multipage application for the original board certification?

There is a good reason for all those hoops to jump through. It gives the whole charade gravitas, makes the fee seem less like extortion.

 

[pathstudent]

After a night of contemplation,
I think is HUGELY good for your typical hospital based pathology group in competing against PODs and dermpath office based practices.

I retract my statement about getting rid of the ABP leadership, there is a subtle stroke of genius behind this.

If you are interpreting that correctly, that is fantastic. And it is not like a POD pathologist or reference lab hemepathologist or dermpathologist can get privileges without being part of a group that has a contract at a hospital.

 

[Patholog]

Anyone know if the Oakstone stuff counts as SAM credit?

I hope so.

 

[SLUsagar]

anyone have any idea as to WHERE we have to take the exams? i.e. we gotz2fly 2 tampa, again?

 

[LADoc00]

anyone have any idea as to WHERE we have to take the exams? i.e. we gotz2fly 2 tampa, again?

Yep as far as I can tell...with the note they are "working" on having it available on computer, perhaps taking it over the web??

Yeah, I think I was reading it too closely now(snap!). My first inclination was "whoa, they are really doing something."

Nope, the MOC process is basically a breeze now I actually fully investigated it. All you need to do is submit a check, a 2 page CME document and you are done. All the minutiae that worried me (aka SAMs hours), is suspended until 2010 and perhaps beyond.

 

[Nilf]

Yep as far as I can tell...with the note they are "working" on having it available on computer, perhaps taking it over the web??

Yeah, I think I was reading it too closely now(snap!). My first inclination was "whoa, they are really doing something."

Nope, the MOC process is basically a breeze now I actually fully investigated it. All you need to do is submit a check, a 2 page CME document and you are done. All the minutiae that worried me (aka SAMs hours), is suspended until 2010 and perhaps beyond.

Exactly.

Drawing analogy to a waste management industry: podlab pathologists are cheap crackwhores, and ABP is a small-time pimp who gets a cut. However, ABP cannot stand up to the Ameripath and other mills, real bosses of the underworld.

 

[malchik]

I don't think this will be trivial, especially for all the AP/CP people who rarely/never use CP. It seems likely that this will lead to people dropping their CP, leaving a greater number of AP only types in the marketplace. If so, would this lead to greater demand for CP onlies in the private world??

 

[mlw03]

i'm gonna bump this up since it's been a while. for those of us who'll be starting to deal with MoC soon, any comments from folks who've been dealing with it the last few years? i've always figured they can't make it too hard or there won't be anyone to actually work, but i'm probably being my naive young self on that one.

 

[Torsed]

I dread thinking about it. May just drink myself into oblivion. I know someone who grandfathered out of the AP MOC, but has to do it for Cytopathology. He has been "in communication" (screaming?) with some one at the boards and refusing to do any of the MOC and he would rather just take the Cyto boards again in 10 years, his rationale being after 10 years of practice he better be able to pass whatever they toss at him, and it would be much less time consuming and costly verus the whole MOC stuff. Naturally the ABP says he can't do this.

I like the previously mentioned crack ******/small time pimp reference. Maybe I can retire in 9 years and not worry about all of it....

At least we in the field where we can send them body parts in the mail right?

 

[yaah]

The first step (two years out for me) was very easy. Filled out a form and returned it with a fee (not a terrible fee but still a fee). The biggest problem I had was not really getting much in the way of confirmation or whatever until way past the deadline when an acknowledgement email was received. I received the email in July, the deadline was january I think. So I really had no way of knowing if what I submitted was adequate.

 

[sirenomelia]

I'd be fine with whatever recert paradigm they want on two conditions:

1) Same standard applies to everyone. It makes no sense if you were boarded in 2001 vs 2011 that the first group is done, and the new pathologists have to bear this extra $hit and expense. If the dinosaurs cant study and pass these stupid new tests than why should I? These new decisions were made, ofcourse, by self-centered *******s who allowed the changes to burden new pathologists who didnt exist yet and couldnt speak for themselves with these old fuchers knowing they were going to exempt themselves.

2) They have windows set up in Tampa that after you complete the tests have the ABP jackasses who correspond/ email sitting in the windows so you can punch them in the face on your way out. Actually I would pay extra for that.

 

[lipomas]

The boards really needs to get their act together. I did the moc thing too like yaah said. It was pretty trivial. You had to state that you had a certain number of CME and SAM credits, but didn't have to provide proof "at this time." You also have to indicate your lab compliance with some sort of QA program like the ASCP non gyn or gyn slides. And then about 5 months later you get an email saying you're ok. I don't really know what would happen if you weren't ok and you missed the deadline. I have pretty low confidence in the boards.

By the way, it is your responsibility to make sure the boards has your correct address on file. Did you know that? If you move, tell the boards.

 

[pathstudent]

Again the people prior to 2008 were given lifetime certificates. You can't ungive them that.

Secondly, these dinosaurs you refer to (e.g. Someone who graduated in 2007) probably could pass it again and an old timer could probably pass it without studying based on my interactions with old timers.

Thirdly, this just gets path in line with other specialties that all have time limited certificates.

With respect to those points you really come across as an unknowledgable douche bag.

However your point regarding expense is a valid one. I don't understand why moc and SAMs have to cost as much as they do and sometimes it seems like just another revenue source for cap, ascp, abp, various other entities. Moc and sams should be free.

I'd be fine with whatever recert paradigm they want on two conditions:

1) Same standard applies to everyone. It makes no sense if you were boarded in 2001 vs 2011 that the first group is done, and the new pathologists have to bear this extra $hit and expense. If the dinosaurs cant study and pass these stupid new tests than why should I? These new decisions were made, ofcourse, by self-centered *******s who allowed the changes to burden new pathologists who didnt exist yet and couldnt speak for themselves with these old fuchers knowing they were going to exempt themselves.

2) They have windows set up in Tampa that after you complete the tests have the ABP jackasses who correspond/ email sitting in the windows so you can punch them in the face on your way out. Actually I would pay extra for that.

 

[Autopsy101]

Again the people prior to 2008 were given lifetime certificates. You can't ungive them that.

I agree with your point, but time limited certificates were first given in 2006. This was the last residency class required to complete 5 year residency, and first class required to submit to MOC and recertification.

 

[pathstudent]

I agree with your point, but time limited certificates were first given in 2006. This was the last residency class required to complete 5 year residency, and first class required to submit to MOC and recertification.

Thanks for the correction. So the first time limited certificates were those that passed the exam in 2007.

How bummed would you be if you failed it by one chemistry question in 2006 and passed it in 2007. That one question would have cost you a lifetime board certificate and about 25,000 in expenses over your career to maintain the crappy ten year certificate.

 

[deleted314957]

Thanks for the correction. So the first time limited certificates were those that passed the exam in 2007.

How bummed would you be if you failed it by one chemistry question in 2006 and passed it in 2007. That one question would have cost you a lifetime board certificate and about 25,000 in expenses over your career to maintain the crappy ten year certificate.

The same scam has hit even us "old timers" with non-limited certificates.
For credentialing/re-crededentialing many hospitals/surgi-centers,etc. now want documentation and scores on the ASCP check path (AP,CP,HP and CP) or CAP PIP program. As an aside, i participate in all 4 and the blood bank stuff sometimes gets a little "hairy" for the typical lab med director (me) who spends the vast majority of time at the scope.
this triple package cost about $3000/yr and it comes out of my "book/cme" fund. Also, there is the "thing" about "voluntary" re-cert for us old timers.
I did it and it cost as much as the "regular" boards and many payors are pushing for all of us old "dinosaurs" to continue a voluntary re-cert path.
So the "ABP and company" continue to get our money.
What is a real pisser is that 80%-90% of would have done the appropriate CME without the gun to our heads--that is our nature--we are active, inquisitive physician/scientists/business persons who would do this on our own volition. As for you younger and somewhat bitter folks, give us any exam---I've done this DAILY for (AP and CP) for 30+ years.

 

[KCShaw]

The lack of a system is still a problem -- delays after submission, moving targets in terms of what we have or might have to do, lack of appropriate SAM's in particular, etc., all make the thing seem like it's just been mentioned and is now floundering in committee, rather than something that went into full force approaching 5 years ago.

In the short term it's not terribly "difficult" to do the basic MOC, as it's mostly just documentation of things we were always supposed to be doing anyway...plus some money, all for purely digital submission. A fellowship will generally cover that first 2 year cycle. Exactly what re-certification will consist of is a real question; a few things have been published, but I haven't that much faith they will stand the test of time. And of course, as I'm growing uncomfortably used to, in the forensic path world many of the available SAM's (which were hard to find at all until the last year or so) and/or other requirements are weakly relevant or have no suitable correlate in an ME/coroner/private office.