ABPM and abfas exams

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
S

Shadowfax12

Full Member
2+ Year Member
Joined
May 16, 2020
Messages
28
Reaction score
13
Besides board wizards and Watkins, crozer, prisms, what should one study for these exams?
Members don't see this ad.
 
Make a list for common cases and write down your work up. I mean every exam maneuver and test. Then write your list of treatments. Compare to the practice test the cross match your choices so you know how to convert your work up the choices on the test.

There shouldn’t need to be more more prep than this.

You should already know how to evaluate and treat infection (diabetic or post op), coalitions, spastic flat foot, ocls, etc.

If you don’t know how to address off the top of your head you need to go back to school or residency. The hard part is converting your knowledge to the timed menus.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
ABFAS is mostly McGlamry and current conference/journal guidelines (ACFAS Clinical Consensus Documents, meeting, etc). You will be in good shape if you read (skim) most of McGlamry and Couglin and the ACFAS CCDs... and then do prep for the cases and practice tests. The ABFAS website examples and BoardWizards are good to get familiar with their case choice exam/test/dx/tx lists.
The ABFAS exams are no joke and should take weeks or months of study depending how much time you can put in weekly and how well you did in pod school and the quality of your residency didactics, how long since you did residency, etc. It is best not to underestimate these exams... the board qual aren't unfair, but the fail rate is high (esp RRA qual). By the time you reach the board cert exams and especially if you do the RRA cert, you are testing and evaluated against the best and brightest DPMs remaining (many have fallen off by not passing one or both qual exams, not getting cases, failing case submits, failing cert CBPS/test, etc).

ABPM and their CAQ stuff is very easy... I would imagine most decent students could pass it right out of pod school (but they can't register to take it until final year of residency). They have a practice questions app, but is honestly very easy and basic stuff mostly on par with national boards you took as a student (questions mostly straightforward, distractors are easily eliminated, etc). You could probably just sign up to take ABPM second year of residency and 'study' pocket podiatrics or PI manual or whatever in your third year (as you did as a student) for a few days before the ABPM test if you do fine on practice exams. I think Board Wizards has practice question bank for ABPM also, but unless your CME pays for it, the test so easy you can likely just do the free ABPM app and review a bit.

The real ones to watch out for are probably ABLES and ABMSP. Those are probably a very big check to write if you can't pass any real boards and you want to try to bamboozle hospitals or patients with 'certification.' 💩
 
Last edited:
ABPM Qual exam had its challenges... lots of gen med. Fair difficulty exam but very much passable.

ABPM Cert exam was case scenarios, but very common sense and straightforward.
 
MusicManMike said:
ABPM Qual exam had its challenges... lots of gen med. Fair difficulty exam but very much passable.

ABPM Cert exam was case scenarios, but very common sense and straightforward.
Click to expand...

The difficulty of the questions, or amount of general med stuff, isn’t totally relevant to anyone’s ability to pass. It really comes down to what the board has set as a passing score, which questions or how many are “test” questions, what/if anything gets thrown out because the question itself performed poorly, etc.

I didn’t think any of the didactic tests from ACFAS were more difficult than the didactic stuff for ABPM cert. I also didn’t think the ABFAS case questions were more difficult. But they are clearly “graded” differently.

I didn’t study for any of them outside of what I had already studied and worked up and performed in residency and then a year or 2 in practice. Honestly, the single best piece of study material for the computer based case simulations for ABFAS certification is a post by Adam Smasher…

Post in: 'ABFAS scores'
 
I think the ABFAS questions are much harder simply because the many negative format questions and reasonable distractor choices are much more difficult. Basically, if either test had

"49yo overweight male who admits to not visiting any primary care provider for many years presents with no open wounds yet mildly painful edematous left midfoot after using on a ladder to clean his garage gutters five days ago. What is the most likely diagnosis?" (and showed XR of diffuse fragmentation + minor sublux midtarsal joint)...

...then ABFAS might have A) Lisfranc traumatic fx, B) Charcot arthropathy, C) Chronic osteomyelitis, D) Rheumatoid arthrosis flare, E) Stage II posterior tibial tendon dysfunction
...and ABPM might have A) Gouty attack, B) Charcot arthropathy, C) Ewing sarcoma, D) Ehlers-Danlos, E) Recurrance of pediatric clubfoot

I think the big differences are mostly who you are testing against (for curve/pass/grading purposes... like dtrack said), but it is also definitely a tougher test construct in my exp. With many of the ABPM questions, all but 2 or 3 of the answers can be ruled out right away... ABFAS has you lucky if you can totally eliminate one or two choices even after some thought.

dtrack22 said:
...Honestly, the single best piece of study material for the computer based case simulations for ABFAS certification is a post by Adam Smasher…

Post in: 'ABFAS scores'
Click to expand...
I couldn't get that link to work but this one should... that was good info for sure. I agree that you can basically shotgun the labs and diag tests on ABFAS and have plenty of choices left (xray and ct and mri on basically everything... cbc, esr, crp, culture on all infection... art dopp on every vasculopath, etc). Board Wizards or reviewing the ABFAS practice case lists is very helpful to get familiar with them...
forums.studentdoctor.net

ABFAS scores

word on the street is scores should come out this Friday, anyone hear anything different?
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net
 
THe midwest podiatry conference has a lecture series specifically for this exam. Its 2-3 days of lectures. They have a good document on how to approach the mock cases section. That conference is in April in chicago so not too late to sign up.

Or do what everyone else said.
 
Sorta related question:

Does ABFAS RRA cert really mean much in the grand scheme of things, or is foot cert good enough?

Having a hard time justifying the extra cash time and stress to add on RRA when it sorta seems it doesn’t really open that many more doors. I don’t really plan to ever do supramal osteotomies or TARs.
 
Boba Foot said:
Sorta related question:

Does ABFAS RRA cert really mean much in the grand scheme of things, or is foot cert good enough?

Having a hard time justifying the extra cash time and stress to add on RRA when it sorta seems it doesn’t really open that many more doors. I don’t really plan to ever do supramal osteotomies or TARs.
Click to expand...

Get all certifications you can get. BECAUSE…

There’s always a piece of crap podiatrist who sits on the hospital privileging board that will make your life miserable. You need to put yourself in a position that no podiatrist can ever get in your way. RRA cert is important.
 
Boba Foot said:
Sorta related question:

Does ABFAS RRA cert really mean much in the grand scheme of things, or is foot cert good enough?

Having a hard time justifying the extra cash time and stress to add on RRA when it sorta seems it doesn’t really open that many more doors. I don’t really plan to ever do supramal osteotomies or TARs.
Click to expand...
I found it useful.
 
CutsWithFury said:
RRA cert is important.
Click to expand...
I disagree. If you've been given privileges for RRA cases and are doing the cases regularly, the hospital cannot deny you bc you arent certified. Experience and training is all you need to keep privileges.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
HardRoadPaved said:
I disagree. If you've been given privileges for RRA cases and are doing the cases regularly, the hospital cannot deny you bc you arent certified. Experience and training is all you need to keep privileges.
Click to expand...
Yeah that does not fly in majority of hospitals if its been written into the bylaws. Which is usually done by a podiatrist who tries to keep others out. I don't know where you practice but I assure you experience and training does not mean a lot in a lot of hospitals. You need to eventually become certified to maintain your privileges which is not uncommon. If podiatrists are still operating and have not become certified in their 7 year window then they are just lucky...or they do the majority of their cases in a surgery center (which should be following standards set forth by the hospital they are affiliated with).

Do you think an orthopedic surgeon would be allowed to keep operating forever if they never became certified? Hard no
 
When I first came to the area, ABPM or ABFAS was allowed for full surgical privileges (so long as surgical logs were adequate)... however after a year or so bylaws were rewritten and seperated non-surg/bedside procedures to ABPM and operating room to ABFAS only.

All because some podiatrist wanted to weed out others. It’s lame, but welcome to hospital politics.
 
Is this only in podiatry that we have 2 or more certifying boards? Let's say GI or ortho doesn't pass their boards, what happens to them? Are they allowed to practice at all? Or what?
 
No other specialty that I know of has 2 Boards.

I think if said specialist is not Board certified they are limited in where they can do procedures.
 
MusicManMike said:
No other specialty that I know of has 2 Boards.

I think if said specialist is not Board certified they are limited in where they can do procedures.
Click to expand...

They don’t. Podiatry is the only scam profession that has two to purposely confuse and mislead. ABPM is a money grab so people who can’t pass the ABFAS or have the numbers to sit for ABFAS can still be board certified on paper in case their patients question their credentials. In some hospitals ABPM is accepted because hospitals don’t know any better. Eventually the monopoly that is the ABFAS will eventually try and change the rules everywhere
 
What procedures are we not able to perform typically without the RRA? Mainly rearfoot osseous/ recon or soft tissue as well? Achilles, Gastroc recession, tendon transfers , infection etc
 
HardRoadPaved said:
I disagree. If you've been given privileges for RRA cases and are doing the cases regularly, the hospital cannot deny you bc you arent certified. Experience and training is all you need to keep privileges.
Click to expand...
It does matter in most places. I would concur with what CutsWith said... at basically every hospital I was on staff at or ever looked at in Mich, you have to have ABFAS qual or cert for podiatry OR privileges and produce logs for RRA. If you got on staff with qual, you have 5yrs to finish cert (or you could stay on for consults/wounds but would cede OR privileges). Some were tighter than others on RRA qual/cert... a couple "proctored" (basically just watched the first 30-60mins of cases and checked the XR) me on my first couple RRA cases since they said they'd had problems with other DPMs on staff boarding more than they could do... which was weird since I had strong logs and was Foot/RRA qual at the time, but if they want to get up extra early that's ok.

I agree you will probably not lose RRA privileges if you have at least Foot cert and are doing RRA cases well, but the problem there is that you never know when chief of podiatry/surgery/ortho might change... or when you may want to change jobs and therefore hospitals. What MusicMan said (bylaws changing due to admin changes or facility sold/acquired) or DPMs moving jobs happens all the time. It is risky to leave that problematic door cracked open by not holding the most logical and appropriate certification for all you do.

It def won't hurt anyone to study for material on the subject if they want to perform those cases, and it might be a great boon to weathering future hospital politics or getting consideration for certain jobs in the future. You never know. This stuff happens in all specialties... typically worse in metros. A new interventional cardiology group could come in from across town with a lot of cases and profit for the hospital and decide that their non-group peers (board cert) who didn't have X number of each certain type of cath within the last 3 years don't need to be doing any type of advanced caths at that facility anymore.

I think we can all agree on this: having RRA cert will never hurt you.
Just being ABFAS cert in any form (F&A, Foot, or Foot + RRA) is something about half of DPMs don't currently have (% should rise with 3yr standard), so I'm sure RRA cert puts one into one quarter or fewer.
...And yeah, we can all agree the tests are tough, it's hard to find study time, and they cost money, etc etc.

MusicManMike said:
No other specialty that I know of has 2 Boards.

I think if said specialist is not Board certified they are limited in where they can do procedures.
Click to expand...
We have 4 boards 🙂

de Ribas said:
Is this only in podiatry that we have 2 or more certifying boards? Let's say GI or ortho doesn't pass their boards, what happens to them? Are they allowed to practice at all? Or what?
Click to expand...
Yeah, they can still practice as long as they have a state license. An ortho or gen surg who fails boards (and keeps failing) is very limited on what they can do, though. They won't get hospital privileges at any major metro hospital (or won't keep if they got the OR privileges by being board eligible). Those docs will typically just take a very obscure job (rural, highly for-profit small hospital, etc that would look the other way) or a non-op job doing injects and basically sports med for the ortho or wound care and diagnostics for the general surgeon. It would not be as tough for a more minor procedure type like GI or ENT or optho to get a glorified surgery center that would still let them do work without board cert, yet they sure wouldn't have their pick of locations... but the ones who need bona fide OR are quite hosed.

I am not too sure what happens for the non-surgical IM type specialties. I would assume they have virtually 100% pass possibly after a re-take or two (since it's just a written test and anyone can pass med school and step exams can pass written boards), but if they couldn't pass, I'm sure their hospital employ or hospital staff options would be very few and far between. Nobody wants a pulmonologist who failed boards running the ICU. They could still run a fine outpatient practice, though. It is only surgical MD/DO specialties that failing boards really puts one hand behind their back in terms of capability and income. As far as I know (asked OBs, orthos, etc), none of their specialties have fake boards in the way that podiatry does, either.
 
Last edited:
100% do not let it expire.
It is extremely helpful for bylaw changes and if you want to change jobs.
Once you let it expire you can never get it back again.
Its a cost to you but its a coin in your pocket to use for a rainy day.
 
Federal law (CMS CoP) prohibits hospitals from using BC as the sole criterion in privileging decisions. They require membership and privileging decisions be based on your education (DPM), training (residency), and current experience (cases). However, BC can be an element of privileging, but it must be BC in one's primary specialty. Now that there is a single, standardized residency, both ABPM and ABFAS certifications are in your primary specialty. Honestly, we don't run into this issue often any more, but when we do, we've been 100% successful at resolving it with the hospital when the Diplomate reaches out to us. Hospitals don't want to risk their Medicare dollars or their accreditation with TJC and once the emotion of DPM vs DPM, or ortho vs DPM is taken out of the equation and it's the ABPM's general counsel speaking to the hospital's counsel, it's usually quickly resolved.
 
diabeticfootdr said:
Hospitals don't want to risk their Medicare dollars or their accreditation with TJC and once the emotion of DPM vs DPM, or ortho vs DPM is taken out of the equation and it's the ABPM's general counsel speaking to the hospital's counsel, it's usually quickly resolved.
Click to expand...
Speaking Truth. I don't see how people still argue about this fact.

However folks on this board continue to preach the false narrative of hospitals not accepting ABPM cert or rather ABPM cert is somehow inferior to ABFAS cert. If you're applying for a job then obviously having both cert will give an upper hand with all things being equal among other candidates however I believe experience and continuous education matters the most and not just some writing on a piece of paper.

It's very time consuming and a lot of financial and mental stress to keep two board certifications active for 30-40 years career span. Pick one BC and be happy with it. Once the other referring doctors in your community trust you, your patients trust you and you are confident in your work then you don't need a piece of paper to speak on your behalf.
 
619 said:
Speaking Truth. I don't see how people still argue about this fact.

However folks on this board continue to preach the false narrative of hospitals not accepting ABPM cert or rather ABPM cert is somehow inferior to ABFAS cert. If you're applying for a job then obviously having both cert will give an upper hand with all things being equal among other candidates however I believe experience and continuous education matters the most and not just some writing on a piece of paper.

It's very time consuming and a lot of financial and mental stress to keep two board certifications active for 30-40 years career span. Pick one BC and be happy with it. Once the other referring doctors in your community trust you, your patients trust you and you are confident in your work then you don't need a piece of paper to speak on your behalf.
Click to expand...
this but make it ACFAS not ABPM
 
619 said:
Speaking Truth. I don't see how people still argue about this fact.

However folks on this board continue to preach the false narrative of hospitals not accepting ABPM cert or rather ABPM cert is somehow inferior to ABFAS cert. If you're applying for a job then obviously having both cert will give an upper hand with all things being equal among other candidates however I believe experience and continuous education matters the most and not just some writing on a piece of paper.

It's very time consuming and a lot of financial and mental stress to keep two board certifications active for 30-40 years career span. Pick one BC and be happy with it. Once the other referring doctors in your community trust you, your patients trust you and you are confident in your work then you don't need a piece of paper to speak on your behalf.
Click to expand...
I get what youre saying. I also understand you could call up diabeticfootdoctor and ask him to call the hospital for denying privileges.

But push comes to shove most hospitals want ABFAS for credentialing. The hospital I am associated with "will not accept any other board". Could that be appealed? Sure. But thats more headache.

To do ankles here you have to have RRA cert or qualify. Not sure how ABPM could certify in that.
 
619 said:
Speaking Truth. I don't see how people still argue about this fact.

However folks on this board continue to preach the false narrative of hospitals not accepting ABPM cert or rather ABPM cert is somehow inferior to ABFAS cert. If you're applying for a job then obviously having both cert will give an upper hand with all things being equal among other candidates however I believe experience and continuous education matters the most and not just some writing on a piece of paper.

It's very time consuming and a lot of financial and mental stress to keep two board certifications active for 30-40 years career span. Pick one BC and be happy with it. Once the other referring doctors in your community trust you, your patients trust you and you are confident in your work then you don't need a piece of paper to speak on your behalf.
Click to expand...
You are sorta comparing apples to oranges.

LCR was talking about getting onto hospital staff and having ABPM recognized as appropriate BC. ABPM is a recognized BC for podiatry. That is important and useful. However, you are BC in podiatric medicine... so all that gets you is consults, wound care, etc at many facilities.

The tougher issue is getting OR privileges for bone and joint procedures... especially at major metro facilities. ABFAS BQ/BC is required in many of those facilities via bylaws for OR privileges (and even then, you are still limited by hospital politics, state scope, etc). Other character, past malpractice, logs, etc issues are obviously considered also.

You can PM LCR or he will clarify, but when he said "100% successful at resolving it with the hospital," he is referring to ABPM being a recognized BC - not talking about every DPM gets full surgical privileges with ABPM. Not a chance. Even ABFAS/ACFAS has has plenty of those unfortunate dead ends where a facility just doesn't have DPMs do surgery, do RRA, do ankles, etc.
 
Reading the above makes me wonder for the ABLES / ABMSP folks. I don’t see how these “Boards” are able to stay afloat?
 
MusicManMike said:
Reading the above makes me wonder for the ABLES / ABMSP folks. I don’t see how these “Boards” are able to stay afloat?
Click to expand...
Yep, they might work for 'credentialing' at a few surgery centers and small hospitals that just want $$$, and hospitals that have a hard time recruiting (highly rural, low paying, no knowledge of podiatry, etc).

When you think about it, ABLES and ABMSP cost basically nothing to run... a website and maybe two employees to return voicemails or update website or email out bogus certificates. They don't have to design real tests or MOC or check CME or verify diplomas or training or anything... since they are not recognized or held to any standards. They are very ambiguous about their 'rigorous' cert process; basically any doc can just send in some EMR notes and a check on their 'rolling' deadlines (voila... 'board certified'!).

They also highly discourage 'verification' checks with fees and auths and release forms to protect their 'certified' docs (whereas real boards have search/verify free and easy online). It is an embarrassment that doesn't really exist in other professions. I know that plastic surg has a bit of a problem with docs misrepresenting their credentials to surgery centers and small hospitals, but I think that is mostly just through crooked marketing... not sure if there are actually fake societies or certs? It's sad.
 
Feli said:
You are sorta comparing apples to oranges.

LCR was talking about getting onto hospital staff and having ABPM recognized as appropriate BC. ABPM is a recognized BC for podiatry. That is important and useful. However, you are BC in podiatric medicine... so all that gets you is consults, wound care, etc at many facilities.

The tougher issue is getting OR privileges for bone and joint procedures... especially at major metro facilities. ABFAS BQ/BC is required in many of those facilities via bylaws for OR privileges (and even then, you are still limited by hospital politics, state scope, etc). Other character, past malpractice, logs, etc issues are obviously considered also.

You can PM LCR or he will clarify, but when he said "100% successful at resolving it with the hospital," he is referring to ABPM being a recognized BC - not talking about every DPM gets full surgical privileges with ABPM. Not a chance. Even ABFAS/ACFAS has has plenty of those unfortunate dead ends where a facility just doesn't have DPMs do surgery, do RRA, do ankles, etc.
Click to expand...
I understand what you are staying. My major question is how can you get your board surgical cases/numbers if hospitals deny you from doing surgery? This is what LCR is trying to educate us on.

A fresh graduate out of residency should not be denied surgical privilege because they are not board cert after completing a 3 years surgical residency. I don't care if you attend Wycoff or JPS. A good number of new graduating residents are only pursuing ABPM cert and not even bothering about ACFAS cert. Wondering how this will play out.

Anyway this is unfortunate because it is fellow podiatrists preventing a fellow podiatrist from doing what they are trained to do. With our residency being 3 years surgical residency and standardized across the board, what is the point of gate keeping a fellow podiatrist from practicing.
 
619 said:
I understand what you are staying. My major question is how can you get your board surgical cases/numbers if hospitals deny you from doing surgery? This is what LCR is trying to educate us on.
Click to expand...
As long as you can pass the qualifying exams I dont think they can (or do)?

If you cant pass qualifying exam then you will not get any surgical privileges.
 
619 said:
So after completing three years of surgical residency, one exam will stop you from doing surgery. It's ridiculous in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Not 100% but 99% sure all surgical professions run the same way.

Not just podiatry.
 
^^^Yeah, that's how it is for anything. The state boards, specialty boards, etc are meant to set a minimum competency.

It is that way for MD/DO surgeons also (failing specialty boards means very limited on facilities or practicing as non-op). That is what I was getting at above.

Every profession regulates itself. The facilities, the states, etc cue off what laws, rules, standards, etc that the profession sets up for itself. Nobody wants an electrician, surgeon, accountant, mechanic, etc who didn't meet the standards. Most hospitals and employers won't risk that. That's just how it works.
 
619 said:
Anyway this is unfortunate because it is fellow podiatrists preventing a fellow podiatrist from doing what they are trained to do. With our residency being 3 years surgical residency and standardized across the board, what is the point of gate keeping a fellow podiatrist from practicing.
Click to expand...
Many pods have an inferiority complex and so use one exam that is widely agreed to be unnecessarily difficult to increase perceived self-worth versus others who don’t believe a multiple choice and simulated clinical exam to be indicative of surgical skill.
 
Boba Foot said:
Many pods have an inferiority complex and so use one exam that is widely agreed to be unnecessarily difficult to increase perceived self-worth versus others who don’t believe a multiple choice and simulated clinical exam to be indicative of surgical skill.
Click to expand...
Yes, but the other side of the coin becomes readily apparent when you see docs putting hemi MPJ implants in every bunion, McBrides where Lapidus was indicated, met head resections for ulcers due to equinus, hammertoe central digits arthroplasy in young highly active people, dozens of injections for heel pain or neuromas, Rx cipro for ulcers, etc. That doesn't make any of us look good.

Good (technical) surgical skill can't be easily tested (op reports or xrays only give a part of the picture), but knowledge of the basic indications, contra-indications, workup, and handling of complications can. There is the old saying "you can teach a monkey to perform a surgery, but the good surgeons know when and what surgery to do." Every medical profession from nursing to neurosurg to podiatry has multiple choice board exams. The people making board exams are largely not the adcoms at the various schools or the sole residency site reviewers; their job for the boards is just to test minimum competency that's in the standard textbooks and literature for the profession.

It would be awesome if podiatry had circa 95% board pass rate like most MD specialty boards, but our schools are still just not as selective on the front end and the gap between our good and poor residencies is a lot wider. There is no easy answer. ABPM is there as a recognized board and a good backup that's highly useful for those who don't pass ABFAS or want dual cert... most other professions (gen surg, ortho, plastics, OB, etc) don't have that sort of option.
 
Feli said:
Yes, but the other side of the coin becomes readily apparent when you see docs putting hemi MPJ implants in every bunion, McBrides where Lapidus was indicated, met head resections for ulcers due to equinus, hammertoe central digits arthroplasy in young highly active people, dozens of injections for heel pain or neuromas, Rx cipro for ulcers, etc. That doesn't make any of us look good.

Good (technical) surgical skill can't be easily tested (op reports or xrays only give a part of the picture), but knowledge of the basic indications, contra-indications, workup, and handling of complications can. There is the old saying "you can teach a monkey to perform a surgery, but the good surgeons know when and what surgery to do." Every medical profession from nursing to neurosurg to podiatry has multiple choice board exams. The people making board exams are largely not the adcoms at the various schools or the sole residency site reviewers; their job for the boards is just to test minimum competency that's in the standard textbooks and literature for the profession.

It would be awesome if podiatry had circa 95% board pass rate like most MD specialty boards, but our schools are still just not as selective on the front end and the gap between our good and poor residencies is a lot wider. There is no easy answer. ABPM is there as a recognized board and a good backup that's highly useful for those who don't pass ABFAS or want dual cert... most other professions (gen surg, ortho, plastics, OB, etc) don't have that sort of option.
Click to expand...
I think submitting cases and reaching numbers for BC, and having them reviewed by committee is legit. No complaints there. You can actually show your skill in these versus yet another didactic and the arbitrary points game of the CBPS. However, the BQ step seems like another cash grab against residents that have already had to pay for 4 boards exams as a student. If they want to have a weeding-out mechanism, just be ****ing humane about it and get it over with on boards 2 or 3. The convolution of it all just comes off as a shameless cash grab rather than a truly legitimate qualification process.
 
I had to comment on the stupidity of the postings on this thread. Let me clear some stuff up for everyone with a dose of reality. I have been division chief of podiatry for 25 + years, my wife has been chief of surgery for 25 + years (MD orthopedic surgery). We both practice in the suburbs of a large city.

As division chief, I very rarely care about a new clinician's PODIATRY board certification because people like me were grandfathered into the ABFAS (previously ABPS). There is Zero comparison between a new resident that completed at PM&S-36 vs. myself who completed at PSR 12. Furthermore, some of the DPM's that are boarded with ABFAS were "grandfathered in". Yes, some people board certified by the ABFAS NEVER completed a surgical residency. If anyone wants to deny this, I have the ABPS candidate handout from the eary 2000's I can post to illustrate the "alternative method" used to reach board certification WITHOUT completing a surgical residency. Furthermore, ABFAS/ABPM are NOT certified by the ABMS (American Board of Multiple Specialties), which is the credentialing body for the MD/DO boards. If ABFAS or ABPM would simply allow oversight, and join ABMS, this would clear up all the "special rules".

So yes, I have DPM's on staff who are board certified by ABFAS that ONLY get toes and simple bunions. I have some DPM's boarded by ABPM only (who completed PM&S-36 residencies) who full rearfoot privileges. I mean look at myself, I completed a PSR 12 and have a certificate in "foot and ankle surgery" from ABFAS. Can anyone on here comment on "A Credential You Can Trust" when I am boarded in "foot and ankle surgery", I never touched an ankle in my life. That is called fraud ladies and gentleman. A DPM that NEVER completed a surgical residency (but knew the right people to get through the alternative method) should be doing surgery but a PM&S-36 trained DPM should not? This is why no one will ever take podiatry boards serious and why my wife, as an orthopedic surgeon, will never think ABFAS as a legit organization. If anyone wants to dispute anything I said, I will gladly post materials to illustrate.

So all division chiefs out there, stop denying PM&S-36 residents from doing surgery. 99% of them are more talented than the dinosaurs (like myself) that completed PSR 12's and 24's. Its really sick how people like Feli talk on here about "the almighty ABFAS". He doesn't want you to know the "pay to play" scheme of the ABFAS. It's people like Feli that are responsible for the horrible state of our profession. As Feli if he ever attends AFOS. Ask him how orthopedics feels about the ABFAS/ACFAS. My wife, as foot and ankle orthopod, would love to hear if Feli was grandfathered into the ABFAS?
 
DPM TRUTH said:
I had to comment on the stupidity of the postings on this thread...
... I have the ABPS candidate handout from the eary 2000's I can post to illustrate the "alternative method" used to reach board certification WITHOUT completing a surgical residency. ...
... If anyone wants to dispute anything I said, I will gladly post materials to illustrate.
Click to expand...
By all means. Provide your storied info?

DPM TRUTH said:
Furthermore, ABFAS/ABPM are NOT certified by the ABMS (American Board of Multiple Specialties), which is the credentialing body for the MD/DO boards. If ABFAS or ABPM would simply allow oversight, and join ABMS, this would clear up all the "special rules".
Click to expand...
Of course podiatry boards are not under ABMS. Podiatrists are not MD/DOs. Neither are dentists. Neither are chiro, optometrists, PT, etc. ABMS might be a good model, but their organization has nothing to do with the situation and likely never will. CPME recognizes the podiatry boards (ABPM, ABFAS), and those boards are tasked with developing minimum competency tests (analogous to ABMS but not same... just as NBPME student exams would be analogous to USMLE steps but not same). Once again, every profession regulates itself.

...as to the personal attacks, there is no point to respond to it. Like LCR and some other current and past regular contributors here, I am not very secret about who I am, and I can do that without worry since I largely avoid the inflammatory stuff. Why would I engage with a new fake account created to bash ABFAS, say whatever you like about me, and to pretend you are whoever you want to be with whatever credentials and power position that you like? You are welcome to the last word if you wish.

No profession has a perfect boards system. Many have harder standards or tests than they did decades ago. In podiatry or anywhere, the smart thing to do is pass all of the recognized boards possible (NBPME steps, ABPM, ABFAS foot, ABFAS rra, ABPM CAQs if you wish) that are pertinent to what you want to do in practice... so that you will be unlikely to encounter limitations. That should be common sense.
 
He does have a point on the grandfathering in issue.

With time this will be obsolete but his point still stands. Its a crack some got through.

A counterargument ORs grant priveleges on documented experience. If you have never touched a calcaneus before they will not (likely) privilege you to do so.

Im sure some will slip through the cracks but medical professions have multiple hoops to jump through (thankfully) to ensure the provider administering care is at least minimally competent and is trained to do what he/she is proposing. This is for all professions in medicine.
 
DPM TRUTH said:
I had to comment on the stupidity of the postings on this thread. Let me clear some stuff up for everyone with a dose of reality. I have been division chief of podiatry for 25 + years, my wife has been chief of surgery for 25 + years (MD orthopedic surgery). We both practice in the suburbs of a large city.

As division chief, I very rarely care about a new clinician's PODIATRY board certification because people like me were grandfathered into the ABFAS (previously ABPS). There is Zero comparison between a new resident that completed at PM&S-36 vs. myself who completed at PSR 12. Furthermore, some of the DPM's that are boarded with ABFAS were "grandfathered in". Yes, some people board certified by the ABFAS NEVER completed a surgical residency. If anyone wants to deny this, I have the ABPS candidate handout from the eary 2000's I can post to illustrate the "alternative method" used to reach board certification WITHOUT completing a surgical residency. Furthermore, ABFAS/ABPM are NOT certified by the ABMS (American Board of Multiple Specialties), which is the credentialing body for the MD/DO boards. If ABFAS or ABPM would simply allow oversight, and join ABMS, this would clear up all the "special rules".

So yes, I have DPM's on staff who are board certified by ABFAS that ONLY get toes and simple bunions. I have some DPM's boarded by ABPM only (who completed PM&S-36 residencies) who full rearfoot privileges. I mean look at myself, I completed a PSR 12 and have a certificate in "foot and ankle surgery" from ABFAS. Can anyone on here comment on "A Credential You Can Trust" when I am boarded in "foot and ankle surgery", I never touched an ankle in my life. That is called fraud ladies and gentleman. A DPM that NEVER completed a surgical residency (but knew the right people to get through the alternative method) should be doing surgery but a PM&S-36 trained DPM should not? This is why no one will ever take podiatry boards serious and why my wife, as an orthopedic surgeon, will never think ABFAS as a legit organization. If anyone wants to dispute anything I said, I will gladly post materials to illustrate.

So all division chiefs out there, stop denying PM&S-36 residents from doing surgery. 99% of them are more talented than the dinosaurs (like myself) that completed PSR 12's and 24's. Its really sick how people like Feli talk on here about "the almighty ABFAS". He doesn't want you to know the "pay to play" scheme of the ABFAS. It's people like Feli that are responsible for the horrible state of our profession. As Feli if he ever attends AFOS. Ask him how orthopedics feels about the ABFAS/ACFAS. My wife, as foot and ankle orthopod, would love to hear if Feli was grandfathered into the ABFAS?
Click to expand...
I agree with you. Personally the board certification process in podiatry is a scam. It comes down to lobbying power. New York and Connecticut have ABFAS written into the law with the DPH. Hospitals in those states go off those laws. That's a big deal.

ABFAS is relevant because the podiatrist on staff of that hospital made it so. Not because its right. ABFAS is just a stronger entity than ABPM. The profession itself is naturally cut throat. Nobody genuinely cares about other's success. If they did we would be further along than we are as a profession.

Getting back to training/residency programs. In theory your point makes sense. The graduates with 3 years of training should be allowed to operate. That would only be true if all residency programs provided similar training experiences which sadly is not true at all. I know a lot of 3 year trained DPMs that I wouldn't even allow to cut my steak let alone allow to operate on another human being. We are still at the most basic issue here. Residency training in podiatry still sucks at a lot of programs, there is still a lot of disparity and it still causes the MD/DO world a lot of confusion when it comes privileging. Hence why this ABFAS vs ABPM issue exists. Somebody has to be the "standard" that hospitals can hang their hat on since ABMS can not regulate either.
 
I think another underlying issue (prob not best word for it) is you’re always going to have students from their first semester in school saying that they “do not want to be surgeons” but still want to be a podiatrist. Therefore, they will likely only go after ABPM and not ABFAS.

If our specialty only graduated surgeons, we would not need 2 boards.

I have seen great surgeons not being boarded or have ABPM only. Likewise, I have seen bad surgeons have ABFAS. In the end, I try to treat all colleagues with respect. I do not want to cannibalize the profession further based on board certification alone, especially since we cannibalize ourselves already with crappy job opportunities.
 
hello all, thank you for your kind words of support! we need to support our youth to keep our profession strong. Greenhouse thank you for your support and service.

deflect, deflect, defect feli......its okay, we understand. again, why are people boarded in foot surgery who never completed a surgical residency? please try to fucus and answer that question. I know its hard to not stick to the talking points you were taught. Please tell me why someone who NEVER completed at surgical residency should be boarded by ABFAS. Please focus on the question asked.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

bloxxeeey
ABPM if Already ABFAS Qualified
Replies
38
Views
3K
PeaJay
P
PTPuser
ABFAS Anki
Replies
3
Views
1K
Hybrocure
Hybrocure
bloxxeeey
ABFAS Exams
Replies
40
Views
10K
hopefulstudent55
H
D
ABFAS and ABPM CAQ
2
Replies
76
Views
9K
heybrother
heybrother
PMG03470
ABFAS Cert pass rates
Replies
16
Views
2K
HaimFeldman
HaimFeldman
Top