ABPM and abfas exams

[air bud]

hello all, thank you for your kind words of support! we need to support our youth to keep our profession strong. Greenhouse thank you for your support and service.

deflect, deflect, defect feli......its okay, we understand. again, why are people boarded in foot surgery who never completed a surgical residency? please try to fucus and answer that question. I know its hard to not stick to the talking points you were taught. Please tell me why someone who NEVER completed at surgical residency should be boarded by ABFAS. Please focus on the question asked.

How long until this account gets banned? 2 days?

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[Weirdy]

How long until this account gets banned? 2 days?

APMA meeting must've gotten pretty rowdy in DC

 

[NobodyDPM]

hello all, thank you for your kind words of support! we need to support our youth to keep our profession strong. Greenhouse thank you for your support and service.

deflect, deflect, defect feli......its okay, we understand. again, why are people boarded in foot surgery who never completed a surgical residency? please try to fucus and answer that question. I know its hard to not stick to the talking points you were taught. Please tell me why someone who NEVER completed at surgical residency should be boarded by ABFAS. Please focus on the question asked.

This is the evolution of the profession. And something that's still a thorn in my side. And truly, all about politics. We went from a profession of palliative care to "Fellowship Trained Foot and Ankle Surgeon" in a very short amount of time. And there were many growing pains along the way.

I graduated in the late 1990s and there was still a way to get "Board Certified" without a residency. A couple of my classmates went this route when they couldn't get a surgical residency, and did "surgical apprenticeships" and somehow this was enough for them to sit for the ABFAS exams at the time. We are not the only ones that allow this. Attorneys don't have to go to Law school. Or they didn't used to. If they studied with an attorney, and could pass the Bar, they were in.

To me, there is no way that this should have been a thing in our profession. This isn't the early 1900s where people did this in Surgery. Now, that being said, I don't like the current system either. I proposed a return to both one year and three year programs many years ago. The one year programs for those not interested in doing surgery in their practices. Or those that couldn't get a surgical program when there was/is a shortage of surgical programs. I was laughed at. And continue to be. There was and will be a time when there will be a surgical program shortage. The pendulum will always swing. And those that don't get any residency are SOL. The majority of states require at least one year of post graduate training to be eligible for a license to practice in that state. That's a good thing. Unless you're on the wrong side of the pendulum.

We must always honor those that come before us. Without them, there would be no us. That being side, we should also strive to learn from their mistakes as well. That can be equally as helpful.

 

[Pronation]

This is the evolution of the profession. And something that's still a thorn in my side. And truly, all about politics. We went from a profession of palliative care to "Fellowship Trained Foot and Ankle Surgeon" in a very short amount of time. And there were many growing pains along the way.

I graduated in the late 1990s and there was still a way to get "Board Certified" without a residency. A couple of my classmates went this route when they couldn't get a surgical residency, and did "surgical apprenticeships" and somehow this was enough for them to sit for the ABFAS exams at the time. We are not the only ones that allow this. Attorneys don't have to go to Law school. Or they didn't used to. If they studied with an attorney, and could pass the Bar, they were in.

To me, there is no way that this should have been a thing in our profession. This isn't the early 1900s where people did this in Surgery. Now, that being said, I don't like the current system either. I proposed a return to both one year and three year programs many years ago. The one year programs for those not interested in doing surgery in their practices. Or those that couldn't get a surgical program when there was/is a shortage of surgical programs. I was laughed at. And continue to be. There was and will be a time when there will be a surgical program shortage. The pendulum will always swing. And those that don't get any residency are SOL. The majority of states require at least one year of post graduate training to be eligible for a license to practice in that state. That's a good thing. Unless you're on the wrong side of the pendulum.

We must always honor those that come before us. Without them, there would be no us. That being side, we should also strive to learn from their mistakes as well. That can be equally as helpful.

Agree 100%. 1 year program and you graduate as a chiropodist. 3 year program and you graduate as a podiatrist.

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Pronation I have one for you. My wife, as an foot and ankle orthopod, can change your status from the department of surgery to the department of podiatry. Funny huh. Why, because she says so. Did you go to MD school? Ortho can put a line through your name, instead of under it. That's what happens when you go to "chiropodist School" vs. Medical School. Follow Me Pronation? Wouldn't talk so smart as as DPM.

Great Post NobodyDPM, but you make me feel really ancient - I graduated from the Pennslyvania School 20 years before you! Everything you said was right on and I could not agree more. I also have seen the pendulum swing, I just can't ever remember being it this far on the side of nastiness in the profession. 40 years in the profession, never seen the jerks out there like I see them now.

Funny how all the "mavericks" on this board (who on previous post you would think are foot and ankle orthopods) suddenly quiet when they know Ortho Foot and Ankle is looking over their posts with me.

 

[Pronation]

Pronation I have one for you. My wife, as an foot and ankle orthopod, can change your status from the department of surgery to the department of podiatry. Funny huh. Why, because she says so. Did you go to MD school? Ortho can put a line through your name, instead of under it. That's what happens when you go to "chiropodist School" vs. Medical School. Follow Me Pronation? Wouldn't talk so smart as as DPM.

Great Post NobodyDPM, but you make me feel really ancient - I graduated from the Pennslyvania School 20 years before you! Everything you said was right on and I could not agree more. I also have seen the pendulum swing, I just can't ever remember being it this far on the side of nastiness in the profession. 40 years in the profession, never seen the jerks out there like I see them now.

Funny how all the "mavericks" on this board (who on previous post you would think are foot and ankle orthopods) suddenly quiet when they know Ortho Foot and Ankle is looking over their posts with me.

Inferiority complex...

I'm a partner in an MSG. What you've mentioned above would never fly. Welcome to 2022.

 

[Weirdy]

Pronation I have one for you. My wife, as an foot and ankle orthopod, can change your status from the department of surgery to the department of podiatry. Funny huh. Why, because she says so. Did you go to MD school? Ortho can put a line through your name, instead of under it. That's what happens when you go to "chiropodist School" vs. Medical School. Follow Me Pronation? Wouldn't talk so smart as as DPM.

Great Post NobodyDPM, but you make me feel really ancient - I graduated from the Pennslyvania School 20 years before you! Everything you said was right on and I could not agree more. I also have seen the pendulum swing, I just can't ever remember being it this far on the side of nastiness in the profession. 40 years in the profession, never seen the jerks out there like I see them now.

Funny how all the "mavericks" on this board (who on previous post you would think are foot and ankle orthopods) suddenly quiet when they know Ortho Foot and Ankle is looking over their posts with me.

I agree with some of your points, but please remember to keep it courteous.

We are based as a whole on our weakest. Nothing comes from diluting or further splitting our training.
There are fantastic DPMs who have been grandfathered in, and there are extremely weak DPMs who have done a fellowship.

The quicker people put their egos aside and realize this, the easier it will be to move future standards as a WHOLE applied to EVERYONE- starting with podiatry school -forward.

-Naive intern

 

[CutsWithFury]

Pronation I have one for you. My wife, as an foot and ankle orthopod, can change your status from the department of surgery to the department of podiatry. Funny huh. Why, because she says so. Did you go to MD school? Ortho can put a line through your name, instead of under it. That's what happens when you go to "chiropodist School" vs. Medical School. Follow Me Pronation? Wouldn't talk so smart as as DPM.

Great Post NobodyDPM, but you make me feel really ancient - I graduated from the Pennslyvania School 20 years before you! Everything you said was right on and I could not agree more. I also have seen the pendulum swing, I just can't ever remember being it this far on the side of nastiness in the profession. 40 years in the profession, never seen the jerks out there like I see them now.

Funny how all the "mavericks" on this board (who on previous post you would think are foot and ankle orthopods) suddenly quiet when they know Ortho Foot and Ankle is looking over their posts with me.

Your wife could make podiatrist's lives very painful within the hospital walls but I could report her to HR for harassment/intimidation and get admin involved. If you want to play that game. As long as I am getting good outcomes and making the hospital money they will tell her to stop. Admin rules the hospitals. Doctors do not. Doctors have little to no say. If you get out line admin is particularly good at creating a file for "behavior/sham peer review" that they can always use against you.

Trust me I've been through this with other orthopedists who repeatedly tried to mess with me at my last hospital job.

 

[heybrother]

There is no world where some septugenarian podiatrist and his ortho wife (real common, also ) are sitting here reading this forum setting the world right about the unfairness of boards and ABFAS's hypocrisy.

Nobody said he went to school in the late 90s. This guy says he's 20 years before that. Its 2022 people. Guy claimed he was going to post stuff to show Feli up - didn't happen. Attacking Feli is pretty funny btw since he's the most open person on this forum about his identity.

I've had the misfortunate of meeting a LOT of old podiatrists. They aren't fighting it out on the internet.

They are desperate to hear what young people are doing.

They have tons of old garbage that they hope someone would want like little foot statues or old projector slides they gave at a lecture once.

If they are still practicing they use old broken nail nippers tied together with coban and they reuse #15 blades that they leave on the handle and stick in the little buckets in the room.

They blather on about "in my day I used to work on all the nurses and other doctor's wives."

They go to APMA style events hoping to meet old friends and pods they knew from the distant past because its all they have left.

In general they support the profession because its ground them down. The people who kept practicing were usually board certified because everyone else dropped out along the way.

But please. Hunt and peck up a response.

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Yes Cutswithfury, I agree and you also illustrated my point.

So let's extrapolate what you said to real life now. You rightly stated: "As long as I am getting good outcomes and making the hospital money they will tell her to stop. Admin rules the hospitals. Doctors do not. Doctors have little to no say." So what happens to a non-boarded DPM after their 7 year qualification runs out with ABFAS? Say this DPM wanted to only do simple bunions and toes. No trauma, no impatient work, just healthy elective simple toe procedures. Say he or she has no discipline or legal history. What if he or she was getting great outcomes, making the hospital a lot of money and was well liked among staff and OR. Should he or she be kicked off the surgery staff because they are not boarded after 7 years. Where do "these people" go? If they have a thriving practice doing simple toes and bunions, why should we stop then from doing their simple procedures? If their practice is not set up for midfoot procedures (abfas case minimums), why not let them do what procedures work for their practice?

 

[GreenHousePub]

They have tons of old garbage that they hope someone would want like little foot statues or old projector slides they gave at a lecture once.

I borrowed a cassette tape series from the 1970's from a retiring pod one time - it was a lecture on biomechanics given by Root and some other guys. It was interesting hearing it almost 50 years later.

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Hey brother I'm sorry you had the "misfortunate" of meeting a lot of old DPMs. A lot of us worked very hard to get podiatry into the OR 30 years ago. You have a lot condensemding views of us old PSR-12 trained podiatrist. Yours (and others) appreciation is noted though.

I also had the "misfortunate" experience of going to AOFAS recently. Anyone on this board wanna tell everyone what the DPM section agenda was like at AOFAS? Anyone on this board wanna tell everyone how many DPMs lecture at AOFAS? Why is that? I encourage all the residents to check out the DPM agenda at AOFAS.

You would think, after years of hotshots like heybrother banging out awesome foot cases, eventually they would welcome us at AOFAS? Maybe 1 lecture? Maybe it's because orthopedic surgeons can't become orthopedic surgeons without completing an orthopedic surgery residency. Imagine that, huh? There are no orthopedic surgeons at AOFAS that "got grandfathered in".

But hey, keep acting like "this doesn't exist" youngins. Keep bashing us septariuns! You always have ACFAS next feb to have your "podiatry friends" to pat you on the back. They will ALWAYS tell you how great you are.

I'm waiting for more deflections. More personal shots about my age, wife, practice style. Again all I wanna know is why we have people boarded that NEVER completed a surgical residency. Who ran "that process"? Answer that first, then u can send the personal insults.

 

[Scrantonicity]

Hey brother I'm sorry you had the "misfortunate" of meeting a lot of old DPMs. A lot of us worked very hard to get podiatry into the OR 30 years ago. You have a lot condensemding views of us old PSR-12 trained podiatrist. Yours (and others) appreciation is noted though.

I also had the "misfortunate" experience of going to AOFAS recently. Anyone on this board wanna tell everyone what the DPM section agenda was like at AOFAS? Anyone on this board wanna tell everyone how many DPMs lecture at AOFAS? Why is that? I encourage all the residents to check out the DPM agenda at AOFAS.

You would think, after years of hotshots like heybrother banging out awesome foot cases, eventually they would welcome us at AOFAS? Maybe 1 lecture? Maybe it's because orthopedic surgeons can't become orthopedic surgeons without completing an orthopedic surgery residency. Imagine that, huh? There are no orthopedic surgeons at AOFAS that "got grandfathered in".

But hey, keep acting like "this doesn't exist" youngins. Keep bashing us septariuns! You always have ACFAS next feb to have your "podiatry friends" to pat you on the back. They will ALWAYS tell you how great you are.

I'm waiting for more deflections. More personal shots about my age, wife, practice style. Again all I wanna know is why we have people boarded that NEVER completed a surgical residency. Who ran "that process"? Answer that first, then u can send the personal insults.

Well, sir, with all due respect--your condescending air and trying to (scare?) us by telling us your ortho wife is reading these boards with you (I mean, I guess ortho wives need hobbies, too), has been quite entertaining. I'm not even 100% sure what point you are trying to get across with all this bitterness, but it's fun to read. I mean, I know you are saying Boards are kinda useless---but what's your solution? I just hope to be entertained some more...that's all I got. With all due respect. Also, thanks for getting us in the OR, sir. I only hope that one day we can actually get paid for the work we do there...guess that's for another generation.

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Scrantonicity - your welcome about OR. To answer your previous question,

I'm not even 100% sure what point you are trying to get across with all this bitterness?

Sorry for being aggressive on here but im really upset. I'm sick of getting calls from previous well trained podiatrists (my previous residents) that tell me they are getting thrown off staff due to board issues. I'm sick of residents and new practioneers being extorted thousands of dollars to "get a second look" at abfas case review. The residents come out 200k in debt (not like our 2k/tuition), the last thing we need to do is charge them more
The BQ/BC is thousands now. It was NEVER that amount of money. Am I missing something?

 

[Scrantonicity]

Scrantonicity - your welcome about OR. To answer your previous question,

I'm not even 100% sure what point you are trying to get across with all this bitterness?

Sorry for being aggressive on here but im really upset. I'm sick of getting calls from previous well trained podiatrists (my previous residents) that tell me they are getting thrown off staff due to board issues. I'm sick of residents and new practioneers being extorted thousands of dollars to "get a second look" at abfas case review. The residents come out 200k in debt (not like our 2k/tuition), the last thing we need to do is charge them more
The BQ/BC is thousands now. It was NEVER that amount of money. Am I missing something?

I get it. We all do, and we've beaten this dead horse so many times in other threads. In our profession's haste to achieve "parity", we've screwed ourselves in many ways. Again, what's the solution? This has become our reality today, and I don't really see a way to get around it.

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Hi Scrantonicity - I don't know what the solution is. I feel like as a profession we have been searching for the "perfect solution" for decades (my generation didnt have it). I just know the way things are going now, is not working well. I hope the next generation can figure it out though, I try want to see the profession do well.

Lastly, I do think board certification is important. I think it is one tool to use though, not the only one. I hope I can help contribute in the future to some constructive pod talk.

Truly sorry for beating the dead horse here guys, not that forum savy at my age!

 

[Scrantonicity]

Hi Scrantonicity - I don't know what the solution is. I feel like as a profession we have been searching for the "perfect solution" for decades (my generation didnt have it). I just know the way things are going now, is not working well. I hope the next generation can figure it out though, I try want to see the profession do well.

Lastly, I do think board certification is important. I think it is one tool to use though, not the only one. I hope I can help contribute in the future to some constructive pod talk.

Truly sorry for beating the dead horse here guys, not that forum savy at my age!

Nah, it's good to get perspective from someone that's been out as long as you have--we certainly don't have much of that here...you just went at it a little aggressively--but that's the internet.

 

[Boba Foot]

Nah, it's good to get perspective from someone that's been out as long as you have--we certainly don't have much of that here...you just went at it a little aggressively--but that's the internet.

Like a boomer on Facebook.

 

[Weirdy]

We did it guys. We've found world peace.

Will keep this thread up for now. Thank you for getting to the point, being honest, and playing nice for the most part.

 

[dtrack22]

I do think board certification is important.

I don’t. Board certification only serves 2 purposes any more. It reduces a hospitals liability (slightly) and it enriches the salaried employees of the board and the board leadership.

It doesn’t improve patient safety or improve outcomes. Privileging should be based on training, scope of practice and then on the surgeons experience/outcomes while in practice. The hospital should be reviewing cases and outcomes and updating privileges as needed and according to the aforementioned criteria.

I think we should get rid of all board certification. It’s meaningless and any poor work can be dealt with by the facility and state medical board. But that will never happen, it’s way too engrained in medical culture at this point. Unfortunately.