Academia

[PharmRX0308]

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How can we step into the field of academia without a formal residency training? Has anyone been able to achieve this? Please share your advices. Thanks.

 

[bittersugar600]

How can we step into the field of academia without a formal residency training? Has anyone been able to achieve this? Please share your advices. Thanks.

Reach out to the school you graduated from. There are many professors that teach patient care and pharmacy operations that are not residency trained .

 

[PharmRX0308]

Reach out to the school you graduated from. There are many professors that teach patient care and pharmacy operations that are not residency trained .

I will reach out to my school! Thank you for the advice!

 

[Rouelle]

What kind of position are you looking for? Virtually all new clinical faculty are residency trained. If you want to do science (med chem, pharmacology, etc) you’ll need a PhD +/- postdoctoral experience. There may be an occasional odd position where you carve out a little niche position with an MHS, but for the most part these jobs are few and far between and generally require some unusual experience (say, you directed the state Medicaid program or you worked several years for Poison Control or something weird like this). In general, staff hospital or retail pharmacists are not usually hired for faculty positions anymore. The shortest distance to faculty is via the residency route.

Are you looking for tenure track positions? That matters quite a bit.

@lord999 might have some good insight.

 

[lord999]

Ok, I have an informal type scale from least commitment to most commitment:

Clinical:
1. Site Preceptor to Site RPD: If you like teaching students and residents and are fairly open in terms of practice assignment, but don't want to get involved with trying to fund a clinic or do bureaucracy work, get a residency, go to work for some academic medical center or university hospital, and you will be loved for taking students. Most of the people I know at this level are happy with this, and I am happy for them.

2. Clinical Assistant/Associate Professor (CAP): Like 1, except you are particular about your practice assignment and conditions, do a residency and join as a Clinical Assistant Professor. In exchange, you'll have to do the bureaucracy work of starting your own clinic according to the university practice model, but if you play that game, you get the power to determine your practice circumstances. Especially essential for practices that are not revenue generating like Drug Information or Professional Development. Most of the early track career CAPs are not happy because they have to put up with lots of BS, but feel that it's worth it midcareer after that initial setup as they get inured to the bureaucracy but like the power or the peculiar practice.

3. Clinical Professor: Like 2, but in additional, go full out and make your practice also your research. Nowadays, you can't do that successfully without some PhD partner with you. Many of the successful ones are espoused (husband and wife, husband and husband, and wife and wife teams, there's two teams that are at a Big 10 university that's polyamorous), and the others have major industry ties (Purdue, The Ohio State, and Michigan are the archetypes). Most are really niche sort of people without serious money, I consider them the bohemians in the business.

Tenure-Track
4A. Assistant/Associate/Professor of Practice: Like 3, but you need serious money to the tune of $300-500k in personnel dollars a year. This is really not easy, and I know of no successful ones in the past 15 years. That was a generation ago.

4B. Assistant/Associate/Unendowed Professor: Unlike 1-4A, you go for the PhD on top of the PharmD. You're a great teacher but marginal researcher, and you'll get Associate Professor if you're not a sociopath but won't promote further. You'll be making about 85-95% of a chain pharmacist, but you only work 20 hours a week and spend the rest of the time indulging in occupational hobbies. Most of the people I know are happy if they chose this willingly, but if they are here because they are just failed researchers and not just marginal, well, it's kind of a limbo sort of hell. (This was what I wanted, and I got this except...)

5. Assistant/Associate/Unendowed Professor AND "Hobbies": Like 4B, but you're a little more ambitious, and you start a sideline business by working as well for the government, contracting with industry, or full-on work for industry. I know of no one who is unhappy at this except for the grousing that time becomes a rare commodity and envy of Tpye 6. Sometimes, you might be even endowed by the business.

6. Serious Associate/Endowed Professor and Administration: Like 5, except, you're in it to win it. You cut the throats, you play the games, you take it all. Usually only one in a department, because Randian heroes destroy other Randian heroes. They are never satisfied, it's never enough, which makes them the most successful. The problem with Type 6 is that they get to the point where they are untouchable, and with their unchecked desires, then you get regressed adolescent behavior like this:

AI Researchers Fight Over Four Letters: NIPS

There's someone on this Board well on his way to that sort of "fame" through his arrogance and exposed performance, and I do feel vindicated that I never took that path with my career. I would do no better than he, but I know better than to wreck other people's lives for my ego (there's more than enough stuff to go around).

 

[greenteapanacea]

How can we step into the field of academia without a formal residency training? Has anyone been able to achieve this? Please share your advices. Thanks.

I'm assuming you're talking about clinical professor positions; I don't know anything about research (PhD) tenure track.

One of my professors started off as a hospital staff pharmacist and worked their way into the intensive care satellite, kept up with literature and practice guidelines enough to impress management and residency-trained colleagues, and finally became a full-time clinical pharmacist at a smaller community hospital. She gradually worked her way into a professorship after being a preceptor and setting up some great pharmacy-led programs. Sadly most clinical professors are capped at associate professor level in my school.

 

[lord999]

I'm assuming you're talking about clinical professor positions; I don't know anything about research (PhD) tenure track.

One of my professors started off as a hospital staff pharmacist and worked their way into the intensive care satellite, kept up with literature and practice guidelines enough to impress management and residency-trained colleagues, and finally became a full-time clinical pharmacist at a smaller community hospital. She gradually worked her way into a professorship after being a preceptor and setting up some great pharmacy-led programs. Sadly most clinical professors are capped at associate professor level in my school.

No, ACPE forbids that as does the regional accreditation that governs all academic departments, all academic ranks have to be accessible with clear standards. If they find that a university specifically runs through staff like that, they get sanctioned hard (Touro has had their Dean removed over this as well as landing them in Probation with regional accreditation in jeopardy). It's just that there are very few clinical track faculty that can get a portfolio sufficient to make full professor due to the "National Reputation" requirement in most rank standards. For clinical track faculty, I think that you have to play the Association game with APhA or ASHP to get that reputation sufficient to promote.

 

[greenteapanacea]

You're right. I think there's only 3 or 4 professors with "full professor" status. Do you personally think clinical professorships are worth it compared to becoming a non-academically affiliated clinical pharmacist?

 

[lord999]

You're right. I think there's only 3 or 4 professors with "full professor" status. Do you personally think clinical professorships are worth it compared to becoming a non-academically affiliated clinical pharmacist?

Read above. Depends entirely on your motivations. I don't think Type 6 is something you choose, it's something you are. Everything else is a choice. I think most people in Types 1, 2, and 4B are at least satisfied if not happy with their career choices and balance. Types 4A and 6 are the ones that are the least satisfied but get the most done and reap the highest rewards, but all of that including the categories is anecdotal.

 

[PharmRX0308]

Ok, I have an informal type scale from least commitment to most commitment:

Clinical:
1. Site Preceptor to Site RPD: If you like teaching students and residents and are fairly open in terms of practice assignment, but don't want to get involved with trying to fund a clinic or do bureaucracy work, get a residency, go to work for some academic medical center or university hospital, and you will be loved for taking students. Most of the people I know at this level are happy with this, and I am happy for them.

2. Clinical Assistant/Associate Professor (CAP): Like 1, except you are particular about your practice assignment and conditions, do a residency and join as a Clinical Assistant Professor. In exchange, you'll have to do the bureaucracy work of starting your own clinic according to the university practice model, but if you play that game, you get the power to determine your practice circumstances. Especially essential for practices that are not revenue generating like Drug Information or Professional Development. Most of the early track career CAPs are not happy because they have to put up with lots of BS, but feel that it's worth it midcareer after that initial setup as they get inured to the bureaucracy but like the power or the peculiar practice.

3. Clinical Professor: Like 2, but in additional, go full out and make your practice also your research. Nowadays, you can't do that successfully without some PhD partner with you. Many of the successful ones are espoused (husband and wife, husband and husband, and wife and wife teams, there's two teams that are at a Big 10 university that's polyamorous), and the others have major industry ties (Purdue, The Ohio State, and Michigan are the archetypes). Most are really niche sort of people without serious money, I consider them the bohemians in the business.

Tenure-Track
4A. Assistant/Associate/Professor of Practice: Like 3, but you need serious money to the tune of $300-500k in personnel dollars a year. This is really not easy, and I know of no successful ones in the past 15 years. That was a generation ago.

4B. Assistant/Associate/Unendowed Professor: Unlike 1-4A, you go for the PhD on top of the PharmD. You're a great teacher but marginal researcher, and you'll get Associate Professor if you're not a sociopath but won't promote further. You'll be making about 85-95% of a chain pharmacist, but you only work 20 hours a week and spend the rest of the time indulging in occupational hobbies. Most of the people I know are happy if they chose this willingly, but if they are here because they are just failed researchers and not just marginal, well, it's kind of a limbo sort of hell. (This was what I wanted, and I got this except...)

5. Assistant/Associate/Unendowed Professor AND "Hobbies": Like 4B, but you're a little more ambitious, and you start a sideline business by working as well for the government, contracting with industry, or full-on work for industry. I know of no one who is unhappy at this except for the grousing that time becomes a rare commodity and envy of Tpye 6. Sometimes, you might be even endowed by the business.

6. Serious Associate/Endowed Professor and Administration: Like 5, except, you're in it to win it. You cut the throats, you play the games, you take it all. Usually only one in a department, because Randian heroes destroy other Randian heroes. They are never satisfied, it's never enough, which makes them the most successful. The problem with Type 6 is that they get to the point where they are untouchable, and with their unchecked desires, then you get regressed adolescent behavior like this:

AI Researchers Fight Over Four Letters: NIPS

There's someone on this Board well on his way to that sort of "fame" through his arrogance and exposed performance, and I do feel vindicated that I never took that path with my career. I would do no better than he, but I know better than to wreck other people's lives for my ego (there's more than enough stuff to go around).

Thank you so much for breaking it down for me. I really appreciate it. At this point, I'm leaning toward path 4B since I know I love teaching and having a strong interest in doing research. I don't mind not having as much patient interaction, but being able to help students achieve their goals is my passion. I love giving people advices and becoming a mentor at one point. I will look into the PhD programs in pharmacotherapy or toxicology then. I think the major reason that is holding me back is the time commitment to the PhD program and the financial stress. Do you know anyone who has chosen this path and how they justify their decision? Thanks again for your help.

 

[TranslationalRPh]

Thank you so much for breaking it down for me. I really appreciate it. At this point, I'm leaning toward path 4B since I know I love teaching and having a strong interest in doing research. I don't mind not having as much patient interaction, but being able to help students achieve their goals is my passion. I love giving people advices and becoming a mentor at one point. I will look into the PhD programs in pharmacotherapy or toxicology then. I think the major reason that is holding me back is the time commitment to the PhD program and the financial stress. Do you know anyone who has chosen this path and how they justify their decision? Thanks again for your help.

Did PhD in Clinical Pharmaceutical Sciences (Pharmacotherapy) but chose the industry path.

It did take dedication and several years, but I was either on the PG1, PG2 + Fellowship path or a PhD. I obviously chose the latter. Also, I did originally plan on going to academia, just like you. However, once I got heavily involved in research, I began to really enjoy research too.

Financially, I earned less than residents and fellows although I did also work retail and hospital while in graduate school. However, I did have the luxury of doing this directly after pharmacy school, so I didn't really miss full-time pharmacist income to do this, because at that point, I had not worked full-time beyond a few months.

Hope this helps.

 

[Sabril]

This is off topic but as a student before and now someone seeking for quality CEs, I rather listen to those who can tell me, "this is what you will see in practice", "this is what you need to know in the real world." I mean I respect my PhD professors and all but there's nothing like learning from someone who's been there and done that in actual practice, and willing to take the extra effort to pass it on. But those are few and far between and most just don't seem to last around for long.

 

[lord999]

Thank you so much for breaking it down for me. I really appreciate it. At this point, I'm leaning toward path 4B since I know I love teaching and having a strong interest in doing research. I don't mind not having as much patient interaction, but being able to help students achieve their goals is my passion. I love giving people advices and becoming a mentor at one point. I will look into the PhD programs in pharmacotherapy or toxicology then. I think the major reason that is holding me back is the time commitment to the PhD program and the financial stress. Do you know anyone who has chosen this path and how they justify their decision? Thanks again for your help.

Well, Tox is a weird one. It's a well-known path from pharmacy, but the placement between a School of Pharmacy, or the School of Public Health, or the Environmental Programs are that. I am personally not aware of any advanced Toxicology graduates who have a patient care focus at all (the Tox stuff is done by residents and fellowship trained pharmacists). I am aware of industry work in that area. The PhD is the union card, and it's a long, long slog.

 

[lord999]

This is off topic but as a student before and now someone seeking for quality CEs, I rather listen to those who can tell me, "this is what you will see in practice", "this is what you need to know in the real world." I mean I respect my PhD professors and all but there's nothing like learning from someone who's been there and done that in actual practice, and willing to take the extra effort to pass it on. But those are few and far between and most just don't seem to last around for long.

No, because anyone who has those sort of skills either figures out to carve their niche out or get hijacked by industry as those sorts of communication skills are highly valued in the CT and triple R departments in PhRMA. Most of the most humanistic faculty that had it all (practice and research chops) are recruited to good jobs outside the academy.