Academic Dishonesty and Chances of Admission

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UpTheCreek

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I am currently a freshman at a public university who was recently caught for academic dishonesty for having gotten answers for a notebook quiz in my Chemistry lab. I'm among several other hundred students who are receiving a zero for the assignment (another student posted the questions to the group me and I used them to write down the pertinent information in my notebook) but there will be no mark on my transcript.

How much of a deal breaker will this be for a med school should I maintain good grades, not receive any other such violation, and prove myself to be an honest, hard working student in the years to come?
 
If there's no mark on your transcript then the only blemish will be the grade in your chemistry lab, correct? Non-issue in my opinion.
 
FutureHopeful? said:
Technically you'll be ok if you stick to what you said above.

Realistically, if you cheat on something so mundane like a quiz...... like come on.
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When I was in undergrad, I don't think there was a single student that didn't do something that could be considered cheating by someone. I don't think copying someone's lab notebook should be viewed in the same light as cheating on an exam nor do I think it makes someone innately immoral.

Hell we had an online music appreciation class that had a widely circulated PDF with every test/quiz answer, and the teachers all knew about it. It was one of those classes where the school feigned ignorance to inflate the GPAs of our athletes. I would estimate over the years about 100,000 students (including plenty of future doctors) have taken this class, accepted the free A, and saved 100 hours in the process.
 
Azete said:
When I was in undergrad, I don't think there was a single student that didn't do something that could be considered cheating by someone. I don't think copying someone's lab notebook should be viewed in the same light as cheating on an exam nor do I think it makes someone innately immoral.

Hell we had an online music appreciation class that had a widely circulated PDF with every test/quiz answer, and the teachers all knew about it. It was one of those classes where the school feigned ignorance to inflate the GPAs of our athletes. I would estimate over the years about 100,000 students (including plenty of future doctors) have taken this class, accepted the free A, and saved 100 hours in the process.
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Can verify, this happens fairly often, even at smaller colleges.

Anyways, if there's no mark on your transcript you'll be fine. However, I would consider this your only get-out-of-jail-free card. You dodged a bullet you fired at yourself.

whatever5 said:
Right? Like who realistically thinks "Well he cheated on my quiz, so killing a patient is to be expected"
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Honestly I feel like 3/4 of SDN.
 
There's good data to support the observation that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.

This is why my clinical colleagues take professionalism so seriously.

OP, if the IA is on your transcripts, then your medical career is over.



whatever5 said:
Right? Like who realistically thinks "Well he cheated on my quiz, so killing a patient is to be expected"
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Goro said:
There's good data to support the observation that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.

This is why my clinical colleagues take professionalism so seriously.

OP, if the IA is on your transcripts, then your medical career is over.
Click to expand...

While I understand that ignorance is no excuse, I had no clue that copying the colors of certain solutions and molarities of acids used in lab that I had forgone due to my seeing them as nonessential information. While I received a zero for the quiz, the violation is not on my transcript, but is on my academic file.

I understand that one could argue my lack of reporting my friend could also be grounds for dishonesty, but I'd hate to see myself written off with the likes of those who steal exams, copy other student's answers, and plagiarize the work of others.
 
UpTheCreek said:
While I understand that ignorance is no excuse, I had no clue that copying the colors of certain solutions and molarities of acids used in lab that I had forgone due to my seeing them as nonessential information. While I received a zero for the quiz, the violation is not on my transcript, but is on my academic file.

I understand that one could argue my lack of reporting my friend could also be grounds for dishonesty, but I'd hate to see myself written off with the likes of those who steal exams, copy other student's answers, and plagiarize the work of others.
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You cheated. You were caught. The million dollar question is whether the school took an "institutional action" or not. Some schools will let you "plea bargain" to a lighter punishment (getting a zero on the quiz) but you avoid being hauled before a school committee and perhaps having a worse punishment and you don't have the right to an appeal (almost like foregoing a trial in a criminal matter). So the question is: did the school take an institutional action or did they let you off without "institutional action" and just left it to the professor to punish you. A punishment by a professor alone is not, perhaps, an "institutional" action. This slight of hand then saves students who would have their futures derailed by records of institutional action. So check into it and don't screw up again. Changes are you can get treated with leniency once but not on the second offense.
 
Thanks, LizzyM. I've already contacted the department at my university that deals matters of academic dishonesty, and, while I do not have to go in front of a committee and have "institutional action" taken against me, the incidence is on my record.
 
UpTheCreek said:
Thanks, LizzyM. I've already contacted the department at my university that deals matters of academic dishonesty, and, while I do not have to go in front of a committee and have "institutional action" taken against me, the incidence is on my record.
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Ouch...

Edit: your record just at your school or on your transcript?

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
 
FYI—It doesn't matter if the incident is recorded on your transcript or your "record," whatever that constitutes. On med school apps you have to answer whether or not you have any "record" of misconduct. Doesn't matter where it's recorded.
 
If an action was taken because of a conduct violation, you have received an institutional action. This what AMCAS says about reporting: "You must answer Yes to this question if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. You must answer Yes even if the action does not appear on or has been deleted from your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition."
italics, mine
 
gyngyn said:
If an action was taken because of a conduct violation, you have received an institutional action. This what AMCAS says about reporting: "You must answer Yes to this question if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. You must answer Yes even if the action does not appear on or has been deleted from your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition."
italics, mine
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Thanks for the explanation. Would you say that the very existence of institutional action on my record is enough to bar me from acceptance into any medical school regardless of my overall performance?
 
UpTheCreek said:
Would you say that the very existence of institutional action on my record is enough to bar me from acceptance into any medical school regardless of my overall performance?
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No. Failure to report it might.
 
gyngyn said:
If an action was taken because of a conduct violation, you have received an institutional action. This what AMCAS says about reporting: "You must answer Yes to this question if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. You must answer Yes even if the action does not appear on or has been deleted from your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition."
italics, mine
Click to expand...

Doesn't the action have to be taken by the "Institution". If the professor gives a grade, which they do anyway, but the institution stays out of it, is it an institutional action? I do think this is a loop hole which some schools provide because 1) it protects an otherwise good student from having a "record" and 2) for the institution, these honor courts are an administrative drain.

I've seen these play out in with graduate students at my own institution and I believe it could be said of them that they had no "institutional action" even if I flunked them from my class.
 
LizzyM said:
Doesn't the action have to be taken by the "Institution". If the professor gives a grade, which they do anyway, but the institution stays out of it, is it an institutional action? I do think this is a loop hole which some schools provide because 1) it protects an otherwise good student from having a "record" and 2) for the institution, these honor courts are an administrative drain.

I've seen these play out in with graduate students at my own institution and I believe it could be said of them that they had no "institutional action" even if I flunked them from my class.
Click to expand...
Where I work, a professor's action (based on unacceptable conduct) is considered an action of the institution. I can see why wiggle room might make sense in some cases, but our lawyers have focused on the word "action." If a grade was changed because of behavior, an institutional "action" occurred.
 
And there is always the risk that a LOR writer will inadvertently let slip what you did. As in "Upthecreek has grown so much as a person and student since the cheating incident"

My school has seen things like this, and outright rejected them in the Adcom meeting.


Person1345 said:
FYI—It doesn't matter if the incident is recorded on your transcript or your "record," whatever that constitutes. On med school apps you have to answer whether or not you have any "record" of misconduct. Doesn't matter where it's recorded.
Click to expand...
 
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Thank God no one ever caught me cheating.

Kappa

@UpTheCreek It seems that there is enough controversy that you might as well take a chance if you really want to do medicine. In no way can you sugarcoat the fact that you completed an assignment without doing the work yourself, but everyone makes mistakes and if you can demonstrate academic excellence, integrity, and honesty medical schools might take the chance. It's a good lesson for honesty seeing how big the consequences might be.
 
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Not to derail the thread, but it's a bit hypocritical for students to be held to such a high academic integrity standard while the institutions administering these courses are blatantly exploiting said students for financial gain.

Think about it, why does a bachelors require 120+ credits? They say it's to develop a well-rounded student/person, but I can't think of a single profession (or graduate school) that would require more than 60 credits worth of courses to be successful. That music appreciation class certainly didn't help anybody become a better engineer, and how much chemistry do you think those business majors even remember? I can't even regurgitate a single fact from the three social science courses I took. There's a reason the base salary for many 2-year certification programs is higher than the average for 4-year degrees.

So, yeah, when I was forced to take courses outside of my major, and the opportunity presented itself, I cheated my ass off and I would do it again. I didn't do it because I was an inherently dishonest person, I did it because these were courses that did not benefit me whatsoever and were designed to merely occupy time in order to keep me at their school an extra two years. I didn't want to take these courses, none of the material was relevant to my success as a professional, and if they're already stealing my money I sure as hell wasn't going to allow them to steal my time too.

Too many folks drinking the koolaid school administrators sell them.
 
Furan said:
Not to derail the thread, but it's a bit hypocritical for students to be held to such a high academic integrity standard while the institutions administering these courses are blatantly exploiting said students for financial gain.

Think about it, why does a bachelors require 120+ credits? They say it's to develop a well-rounded student/person, but I can't think of a single profession (or graduate school) that would require more than 60 credits worth of courses to be successful. That music appreciation class certainly didn't help anybody become a better engineer, and how much chemistry do you think those business majors even remember? I can't even regurgitate a single fact from the three social science courses I took. There's a reason the base salary for many 2-year certification programs is higher than the average for 4-year degrees.

So, yeah, when I was forced to take courses outside of my major, and the opportunity presented itself, I cheated my ass off and I would do it again. I didn't do it because I was an inherently dishonest person, I did it because these were courses that did not benefit me whatsoever and were designed to merely occupy time in order to keep me at their school an extra two years. I didn't want to take these courses, none of the material was relevant to my success as a professional, and if they're already stealing my money I sure as hell wasn't going to allow them to steal my time too.

Too many folks drinking the koolaid school administrators sell them.
Click to expand...

You probably don't know anything because........... gasp............ you didn't actually learn anything.

Go figure for a cheater to not learn.

The administrator didn't have to sell me good ethics........ It's common sense to me (but not for most people apparently)

Honestly you sounded like a tool and I fear for the patients you may see in the future.
 
FutureHopeful? said:
You probably don't know anything because........... gasp............ you didn't actually learn anything.

Go figure for a cheater to not learn.

The administrator didn't have to sell me good ethics........ It's common sense to me (but not for most people apparently)

Honestly you sounded like a tool and I fear for the patients you may see in the future.
Click to expand...

What you think of as "ethical" is merely being a pawn for making money. When the student loan bubble pops, and students don't have access to unlimited financial aid, these filler courses won't even be part of the curriculum anymore. Think about all the money you've spent on classes that are not even remotely relevant to medicine or science.

Being naive and being ethical are two entirely different things and unfortunately we've clouded the two in this country. And, *gasp*, what do you know, not learning the nonsense material in these classes had zero impact on my MCAT score or ability to enter medical school.
 
gyngyn said:
Where I work, a professor's action (based on unacceptable conduct) is considered an action of the institution. I can see why wiggle room might make sense in some cases, but our lawyers have focused on the word "action." If a grade was changed because of behavior, an institutional "action" occurred.
Click to expand...
You do realize that many if not the majority of students will simply avoid reporting said "institutional" action if there is no evidence on record? I hope your opinion of medical school applicants is not that high 😛
 
ZedsDed said:
You do realize that many if not the majority of students will simply avoid reporting said "institutional" action if there is no evidence on record? I hope your opinion of medical school applicants is not that high 😛
Click to expand...

Yeah Im kind of curious about this as well. I think the big thing here is there is no documentation or way of proving an IA like this. If there is no record of it there is no way of verifying it which would be the call if a professor is just making a judgment call on their own. Obviously very few will lie about saying they have an IA when in fact they really dont but it gets to the general point of if an IA isnt documented or verifiable in anyway, we're getting into rather murky waters. Every IA should be verified in some way if for no other reason to make sure there isnt more of an IA that the applicant is simply not disclosing or is misconstruing in some way. Cant really do that with these IAs that arent documented in anyway.
 
ZedsDed said:
You do realize that many if not the majority of students will simply avoid reporting said "institutional" action if there is no evidence on record? I hope your opinion of medical school applicants is not that high 😛
Click to expand...

This. If saying yes will get you auto-rejected from medical school, and saying no will get you rejected from medical school only in the small chance you get caught, why the **** would anyone ever say yes to that question?
 
ZedsDed said:
You do realize that many if not the majority of students will simply avoid reporting said "institutional" action if there is no evidence on record? I hope your opinion of medical school applicants is not that high 😛
Click to expand...
What often happens is that a helpful letter writer mentions the event, to explain how much the applicant has grown. We would likely overlook an early, minor infraction.
Nondisclosure, however, results in an investigation that reveals the undisclosed IA. The minor IA now becomes a deal-breaker, not only at the first school that inquires, but when AMCAS gets involved, everywhere.
 
gyngyn said:
What often happens is that a helpful letter writer mentions the event, to explain how much the applicant has grown. We would likely overlook an early, minor infraction.
Nondisclosure, however, results in an investigation that reveals the undisclosed IA. The minor IA now becomes a deal-breaker, not only at the first school that inquires, but when AMCAS gets involved, everywhere.
Click to expand...
I understand that people get caught anyway. I'm just pointing out that those who felt justified in cheating as an undergrad will likely feel justified lying to you about it (see our cynical friend above.) Personally, I can think of at least 3 people who I know for a fact have cheated at some point in their academic career to greater or lesser extents that are currently in medical school. In Ca, no less. As I've said before, I think AdCom members are a bit naive if they assume that they some how weed out the majority of gunners who aren't above unethical shortcuts. The majority of students cheat at some point in high school. A slight minority of students think cheating is an "issue." These stats should terrify anyone who is concerned with academic integrity as I doubt they simply morph into different people when they hit 18.
https://web.stanford.edu/class/engr110/cheating.html

Also, I'm a bit surprised at your admission that you would probably overlook a minor cheating infraction. This seems to run counter to SDN orthodoxy.
 
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Furan said:
Not to derail the thread, but it's a bit hypocritical for students to be held to such a high academic integrity standard while the institutions administering these courses are blatantly exploiting said students for financial gain.

Think about it, why does a bachelors require 120+ credits? They say it's to develop a well-rounded student/person, but I can't think of a single profession (or graduate school) that would require more than 60 credits worth of courses to be successful. That music appreciation class certainly didn't help anybody become a better engineer, and how much chemistry do you think those business majors even remember? I can't even regurgitate a single fact from the three social science courses I took. There's a reason the base salary for many 2-year certification programs is higher than the average for 4-year degrees.

So, yeah, when I was forced to take courses outside of my major, and the opportunity presented itself, I cheated my ass off and I would do it again. I didn't do it because I was an inherently dishonest person, I did it because these were courses that did not benefit me whatsoever and were designed to merely occupy time in order to keep me at their school an extra two years. I didn't want to take these courses, none of the material was relevant to my success as a professional, and if they're already stealing my money I sure as hell wasn't going to allow them to steal my time too.

Too many folks drinking the koolaid school administrators sell them.
Click to expand...

I sorta hear what you're saying

but I run completely counter to this
but I see being a physician as a profession where your job is to treat the *whole* person, and I think I learned things from reading Don Quixote in the original language that have served me in that capacity
if one doesn't think that music appreciation will do the same for them, then they should take a different class

perhaps that business major will know enough from their intro to chem class to know that chemicals aren't inherently scary
for example, did you know that dihydrogen monoxide has is present in 100% of tumors?? the sort of person educated enough not to fall for that one, well
knowing that could be the difference between a vegan that is willing to take a synthetic B12 supplement and one that doesn't and develops neuropathy

to me, people that rail against a liberal arts education are lacking qualities I think serve the medical profession well
-imagination
-thirst for broad knowledge
-interest in whole range of human experience
-facility with both the social/psychological and the mathematical/technical
 
med schools can't take people with a history of cheating for good reason

if you have relied on cheating to get to where you are, the gigantic body of knowledge that is medical school will quickly overwhelm you
you will not survive and it will waste so much time and resources for all involved

there's no way for them to know if this is a "one time" infraction or not so it's typically a dealbreaker
waaay more qualified candidates than slots, many of whom at the least were able to not be caught

think what it says about you? cuts a corner when it's easy and no big deal? not really inspiring
cuts a corner when it counts and it's hard? not really a win there either

it's really a matter of total practicality that they don't tolerate any bull****

OP - the very fact there is debate if this is IA, I would check with school to see how this might come out, and if it won't, I would answer no on AMCAS. As far as investigation taking you down, anytime you checkbox a question and later it looks wrong, you always must maintain you believed the answer to be true or just total ignorance. Definitely don't ask this professor for an LOR. In fact, I would get to know the departments well enough to know which professors seem to know each other and get LORs as far from this prof as possible. I know it's jacked I'm telling you to hide this if it's not something that's going to come out from your school if they are asked about IAs or on your transcript, but, well, that's a matter of practicality too. The chances of this coming out and ****ing you is much smaller in that case than if you checkbox yes on IAs.
 
@Crayola227 Do physicians really treat the whole person? More pressing question, in a vegan avoiding fortified foods wouldn't neuropathy be a secondary cause of concern in lieu of issues like anemia / heart and blood vessel disease being first indicators to a potential long term issue down the road?
 
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All I know is that I think there was a lot of cheating going on for some subjects at my school and it really pissed me off because I never cheated.
 
Sardinia said:
@Crayola227 Do physicians really treat the whole person? More pressing question, in a vegan avoiding fortified foods wouldn't neuropathy be a secondary cause of concern in lieu of issues like anemia / heart and blood vessel disease being first indicators to a potential long term issue down the road?
Click to expand...
:hijacked:

:prof: Vitamin B12 is found only in animal products. Vegan diets are deficient in B12. Megaloblastic anemia is a sign of B12 deficiency but peripheral neuropathy is often symptom. The point is, a broad education helps physicians communicate with people of different backgrounds or who lack scientific education.
 
As you can see, this happens at schools other than my own.

Still wanna not mention the event, OP?


gyngyn said:
What often happens is that a helpful letter writer mentions the event, to explain how much the applicant has grown. We would likely overlook an early, minor infraction.
Nondisclosure, however, results in an investigation that reveals the undisclosed IA. The minor IA now becomes a deal-breaker, not only at the first school that inquires, but when AMCAS gets involved, everywhere.
Click to expand...
 
Crayola227 said:
I sorta hear what you're saying

but I run completely counter to this
but I see being a physician as a profession where your job is to treat the *whole* person, and I think I learned things from reading Don Quixote in the original language that have served me in that capacity
if one doesn't think that music appreciation will do the same for them, then they should take a different class

perhaps that business major will know enough from their intro to chem class to know that chemicals aren't inherently scary
for example, did you know that dihydrogen monoxide has is present in 100% of tumors?? the sort of person educated enough not to fall for that one, well
knowing that could be the difference between a vegan that is willing to take a synthetic B12 supplement and one that doesn't and develops neuropathy

to me, people that rail against a liberal arts education are lacking qualities I think serve the medical profession well
-imagination
-thirst for broad knowledge
-interest in whole range of human experience
-facility with both the social/psychological and the mathematical/technical
Click to expand...

I hate to break it to you, but about 99.9% of that *holistic* knowledge you wasted time and effort learning in college will be completely useless especially if you have a liberal arts degree (unless you took spanish, in which case good job). Undergrad is just an overly expensive (in time and money) audition for medical school
 
Furan said:
So, yeah, when I was forced to take courses outside of my major, and the opportunity presented itself, I cheated my ass off and I would do it again. I didn't do it because I was an inherently dishonest person, I did it because these were courses that did not benefit me whatsoever and were designed to merely occupy time in order to keep me at their school an extra two years. I didn't want to take these courses, none of the material was relevant to my success as a professional, and if they're already stealing my money I sure as hell wasn't going to allow them to steal my time too.
Too many folks drinking the koolaid school administrators sell them.
Click to expand...

You took a Medical Biochemistry at UNE online in Spring of 2016 and you made a MCAT score of such. I wouldn't admit so flagrantly to cheating when one can identify you.

upload_2016-5-11_13-46-38.png


upload_2016-5-11_13-47-13.png
 
Just be honest and report it! None of my IA's are on my official transcript, but I still plan to report it.

I was placed on academic probation following my first semester due to a <2.0 gpa. I did well and got out of it the very next semester. That same year, I received two dorm-room alcohol violations, for simply being in the same room as those who were drinking. I was placed on disciplinary probation for the remainder of my time at my university and was suspended from summer classes that summer. I ended up retaking a class at my local community college and all is well.

I plan on reporting all of that in the IA section. Unless someone should convince me otherwise, that is. None of them are on my official transcript. I guess I'm curious as to how else they would find this out.
 
Goro said:
There's good data to support the observation that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.

This is why my clinical colleagues take professionalism so seriously.

OP, if the IA is on your transcripts, then your medical career is over.
Click to expand...

But what if someone cheated in like middle school? Isn't that like way too long ago?
 
LoveBeingHuman:) said:
But what if someone cheated in like middle school? Isn't that like way too long ago?
Click to expand...

Thank God all that is required is to report what happened from the time you started college. Full confession: I copied from my neighbor's spelling paper in sixth grade.
 
LizzyM said:
Thank God all that is required is to report what happened from the time you started college. Full confession: I copied from my neighbor's spelling paper in sixth grade.
Click to expand...

So AMCAS does not require it, even for high school? I'm sure some med schools might
 
LizzyM said:
Thank God all that is required is to report what happened from the time you started college. Full confession: I copied from my neighbor's spelling paper in sixth grade.
Click to expand...
The LizzyM humor always makes my day [emoji4]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
 
My favorite part about this is that the adcoms were telling the guy who was ADDICTED TO HEROIN and just got clean THREE YEARS AGO (and was addicted for YEARS, at the sound of it) that he would get into a med school, but if this guy gets ONE academic dishonesty put on his transcript [freshman year] then his "medical career is over". Is that not the most insane thing that anyone's ever heard? And don't give me that "you don't now how many times he cheated" or "once a cheater, always a cheater" BS. If @UpTheCreek is to be believed, HUNDREDS of students got caught with the guide, so I guess you might as well disqualify his whole school for becoming a doctor at that point.
 
And you know what, I think I'll keep going. How come @LizzyM can OPENLY ADMIT that students in her classes get caught cheating and don't receive institutional action (albeit with a zero on the assignment), and that's perfectly fine not to put on your application. But if the EXACT SAME THING happened at a different school, and the school gave the student a zero AND they received an institutional action, then @LizzyM would reject that student from her medical school almost without question. I mean, are you kidding me? How do you even justify that kind of logic?
 
joe_smo said:
And you know what, I think I'll keep going. How come @LizzyM can OPENLY ADMIT that students in her classes get caught cheating and don't receive institutional action (albeit with a zero on the assignment), and that's perfectly fine not to put on your application. But if the EXACT SAME THING happened at a different school, and the school gave the student a zero AND they received an institutional action, then @LizzyM would reject that student from her medical school almost without question. I mean, are you kidding me? How do you even justify that kind of logic?
Click to expand...

Except its the SCHOOL that chooses to uses the loophole to either apply a IA or not. There are more candidates then there are seats, and with such a blemish, why buy something stained rather then something clean? That being said, anything can be said on the internet, but whether the heroin addict actually gets in is debatable.

Referencing: http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2011/06/among_oregon_health_science_un.html

All I see is "She wrote frankly about her years as a street kid." That being said, unless the actual essay is posted, no one knows if she actually wrote about using it.

That being said, she cleaned up her life BEFORE she started the journey to medical school, committing to that change to be a better / virtuous / noble whatever person. Now of course she regressed and whatever, but that was AFTER she was accepted.

Compare that against the person who is on the pathway and then has a IA. While both isn't admirable, one just has much poorer timing.
 
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@joe_smo I agree with a lot of what you're staying but you need to simmer down, man. Did you really make a new account just to post here? lol
 
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