Academic IA?

[prepabostongirl]

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[Moko]

So my question although the dean's office is notified of the professor's sanctions because this is not going through a formal hearing (since I am not appealing it), is this incident that occurred in Orgo 2 considered an academic institutional action (IA)?

Ask the institution whether this constitutes an IA. Only they can tell you for sure.

Even if this wasn't an IA though, that F is going to stand out.

 

[prepabostongirl]

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[ciestar]

Yes I'm aware but I'm hoping to retake the course at my main institution. If it was an IA, how badly did I tank my chances of going into a pre-health profession? is there any coming back from this or damage control?

You cheated not once but twice. It will hurt you.

 

[drgweeds]

when schools ask about IAs they want to know if you have been sanctioned by your institution for violating your school’s code of conduct. They ask this because they want to ensure that you are a person of character and if you have a blemish, that you have an opportunity to comment. Report what you want, just know that you may be committing yourself to a certain characterization if you choose to hide/obscure aspects of your history as a student. Especially schools hear differently from your institution.

 

[Moko]

Yes I'm aware but I'm hoping to retake the course at my main institution. If it was an IA, how badly did I tank my chances of going into a pre-health profession? is there any coming back from this or damage control?

I could not care less about the clicker thing. But willfully and intentionally cheating on the exam cannot be excused. If you are required to report this as an IA, you would be DOA at my school for the foreseeable future. There are many things that we can and do overlook, but academic dishonesty is not one of them.

 

[PA_dud3]

Man, twice. Ouch.

 

[RedRoses]

I would contact the presiding dean for clarification on how this second incident was documented. It does seem that it was recorded as cheating somewhere in your academic record. But still, it would be best to clarify just in case.

Second, you might want to take a gap year or two to put this behind you after retaking the course and completing your degree. You should procure experiences that allow you to demonstrate your integrity and reestablish your integrity.

Third, when you’re applying, and if you are so fortunate enough to get an interview, you must show your remorse and growth from this situation, if it is indeed an IA that will be submitted to AMCAS by said institution.

 

[prepabostongirl]

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[prepabostongirl]

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[prepabostongirl]

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[prepabostongirl]

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[prepabostongirl]

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[RedRoses]

Okay I really appreciate this genuine response without any bashing. I am Pre-PA but I was planning on taking a gap year or two anyways to get clinical hours. Grades are not out right now so I don't think I will get a definite answer but I'll ask my department head about the situation more in depth and see what he has to say. I think the form was just a formality to show that I did commit academic integrity violation. Is it possible to request a copy of disciplinary records?

That all depends on the institution’s policies. Plead with the dean, let them know you aren’t attempting to dispute anything and that you just want to know where and how this is documented so you can be prepared to address it appropriately and move on from it when the time comes.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

Request an official transcript. If it is not noted on the official transcript then you have no IA. Period.

Edit for clarification: Above that semester it may/will probably say "Academic Warning" or something like that, this is as a result of your low summer semester GPA (from the F) only and not disciplinary from the honor violation.

What you don't want to see on the official transcript:
"Honor Violation"
"Dismissed - Honor"
"Disciplinary Dismissal"
etc etc etc

It is unlikely you will have an IA given there was no judiciary hearing. At most schools, this would be a violation of due process.

 

[honeybee87]

I understand, do you have any advice moving forward? Besides not cheating because I got the memo.

God **** ur luck ur not premed and decided to stick with an easier admissions program. Us premeds would have lost 5 years of our lives on that mistake (if we still wanted to stay in premed that is)

 

[Moko]

I understand, do you have any advice moving forward? Besides not cheating because I got the memo.

The tincture of time usually heals most wounds. In this case, we're talking about several years at a minimum.

Even if this doesn't need to be reported as an IA, an isolated F may still clue people in that something like this had happened. Prepare to be asked about this in interviews if you get that far, and answer truthfully. I have never felt the need to verify things, but this is one instance where I would likely call to verify the story. Just my thoughts.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

The tincture of time usually heals most wounds. In this case, we're talking about several years at a minimum.

Even if this doesn't need to be reported as an IA, the F would still clue people in that something like this had happened. Prepare to be asked about this in interviews if you get that far, and answer truthfully. I never felt the need to verify things, but this is one instance where I would call to verify the story. Just my thoughts.

Surprised by this answer. I don't think an F is a clue to an honor violation at all. I have recieved a few Fs in my day - from blowing off class, unrealistically thinking I could "catch up" instead of just taking the W, etc. Never from cheating.

Calling to verify the story?? Seriously? My god...... You must not see very many Fs!

 

[honeybee87]

Surprised by this answer. I don't think an F is a clue to an honor violation at all. I have recieved a few Fs in my day - from blowing off class, unrealistically thinking I could "catch up" instead of just taking the W, etc. Never from cheating.

Calling to verify the story?? Seriously? My god......

The problem is it’s one F, probably in a seas of As (s/o to goro for the quote). in other words, it’ll stand out more than a yellow bumble bee (me) on top of a large purple flower, such that the flower takes up the entire view and the bee (let’s assume it is all yellow for sake of this analogy), is but a small dot in the landscape

Purple: good grades (A, B)
Yellow: the isolated F

Yet even though the entire view is purple, your eyes (adcoms eyes) are drawn towards the yellow (the F)

EDIT: if you can’t tell, I’m bored out of my mind and don’t wanna go back to writing secondaries SOS

 

[Moko]

Surprised by this answer. I don't think an F is a clue to an honor violation at all. I have recieved a few Fs in my day - from blowing off class, unrealistically thinking I could "catch up" instead of just taking the W, etc. Never from cheating.

Calling to verify the story?? Seriously? My god...... You must not see very many Fs!

Depends on the context. An isolated F in an otherwise perfect record would make me curious. This is something that I haven't seen over the past year (though my view is likely biased by where I work).

If this F was part of a semester of poor grades, or part of a mediocre academic record (as is sometimes the case for non-trads / "reinventors"), I wouldn't bat an eye.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

The problem is it’s one F, probably in a seas of As (s/o to goro for the quote). in other words, it’ll stand out more than a yellow bumble bee (me) on top of a large purple flower, such that the flower takes up the entire view and the bee (let’s assume it is all yellow for sake of this analogy), is but a small dot in the landscape

Haha wait what about goro?

Depends on the context. An isolated F in an otherwise perfect record would make me curious.

I would just assume they got exhausted in summer school and gave up for the summer lol

 

[honeybee87]

Haha wait what about goro?

I think he (or she?) was the one who coined the term “An F in an otherwise sea of good grades is cause for alarm” or something like that

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

I think he (or she?) was the one who coined the term “An F in an otherwise sea of good grades is cause for alarm” or something like that

Makes sense but I would rather have 1 F than 4........

 

[honeybee87]

Makes sense but I would rather have 1 F than 4........

Yeh but would you rather have 1F and 1IA as OP does or 4Fs?!?!?! I would choose 7Fs over 1IA any day

EDIT: also, in keeping with my analogy, 4 yellow dots is less distracting than 1 lool

 

[drducky.]

Request an official transcript. If it is not noted on the official transcript then you have no IA. Period.

Edit for clarification: Above that semester it may/will probably say "Academic Warning" or something like that, this is as a result of your low summer semester GPA (from the F) only and not disciplinary from the honor violation.

What you don't want to see on the official transcript:
"Honor Violation"
"Dismissed - Honor"
"Disciplinary Dismissal"
etc etc etc

It is unlikely you will have an IA given there was no judiciary hearing. At most schools, this would be a violation of due process.

I’m pretty sure you can have an IA record in the school database even if its not on your transcript. I know my school doesnt put disciplinary history on the transcript.

 

[Moko]

I would just assume they got exhausted in summer school and gave up for the summer lol

Even if that's the most likely explanation, we still need to do our due diligence to ensure that nothing more had happened. A school's reputation can be easily damaged by a single graduate (cue Nassar and MSUCOM).

 

[prepabostongirl]

Request an official transcript. If it is not noted on the official transcript then you have no IA. Period.

Edit for clarification: Above that semester it may/will probably say "Academic Warning" or something like that, this is as a result of your low summer semester GPA (from the F) only and not disciplinary from the honor violation.

What you don't want to see on the official transcript:
"Honor Violation"
"Dismissed - Honor"
"Disciplinary Dismissal"
etc etc etc

It is unlikely you will have an IA given there was no judiciary hearing. At most schools, this would be a violation of due process.

Oof. Thank you, I'll definitely check my transcript once grades are out.

 

[prepabostongirl]

The tincture of time usually heals most wounds. In this case, we're talking about several years at a minimum.

Even if this doesn't need to be reported as an IA, an isolated F would still clue people in that something like this had happened. Prepare to be asked about this in interviews if you get that far, and answer truthfully. I have never felt the need to verify things, but this is one instance where I would likely call to verify the story. Just my thoughts.

Ok, thank you for this. I'm not saying I'm straight A student but I have never failed a course and orgo is one of the hardest undergraduate courses, I'm not sure why this would clue anyone in that the F alone is academic violation?

 

[prepabostongirl]

I’m pretty sure you can have an IA record in the school database even if its not on your transcript. I know my school doesnt put disciplinary history on the transcript.

I read this somewhere else as well. Do you graduate programs require you to disclose these records?

 

[Moko]

Ok, thank you for this. I'm not saying I'm straight A student but I have never failed a course and orgo is one of the hardest undergraduate courses, I'm not sure why this would clue anyone in that the F alone is academic violation?

I meant to say "may still clue". 😳

Orgo is hard, but it's not so hard where an otherwise competitive student would fail it. There are almost always stories and reasons (not always nefarious) for isolated bad grades, and bad semesters or years. Just my thoughts.

 

[prepabostongirl]

I meant to say "may still clue". 😳

Orgo is hard, but it's not so hard where an otherwise competitive student would fail it. Just my thoughts though.

Oh sorry I misunderstood... but yeah I agree, Orgo 2 is tough but had I made a smarter and more ethical choice, I could've ended in the B range. Gotta learn one way I guess.

 

[prepabostongirl]

God **** ur luck ur not premed and decided to stick with an easier admissions program. Us premeds would have lost 5 years of our lives on that mistake (if we still wanted to stay in premed that is)

I would hardly say PA admissions is any easier to a great extent. But since I have to get my clinical hours which could take 1-3 years to compensate for what happened, it doesn't deter my plans too much but i still feel it does.

 

[Moko]

Oh sorry I misunderstood... but yeah I agree, Orgo 2 is tough but had I made a smarter and more ethical choice, I could've ended in the B range. Gotta learn one way I guess.

Live and learn. We all make mistakes. And if your only punishment is not being allowed to apply to certain professional schools, it could be worse. Good luck with everything.

 

[prepabostongirl]

Live and learn. We all make mistakes. And if your only punishment is not being allowed to apply to certain professional schools, it could be worse. Good luck with everything.

This is true. Thank you for all the advice

 

[ciestar]

Pretty sure the first time will not be shown only the more severe offense (the regrade conflict). Regardless, do you have any genuine advice?

Im not an adcom but also not pre-PA, so I honestly don’t have much to provide for you

 

[Goro]

I could not care less about the clicker thing. But willfully and intentionally cheating on the exam cannot be excused. If you are required to report this as an IA, you would be DOA at my school for the foreseeable future. There are many things that we can and do overlook, but academic dishonesty is not one of them.

Ditto at my school. There is data that shows that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students. My clinical colleagues take professionalism VERY seriously.

OP, the problem you face from ANY admissions committee at any professional school will be the mindsets of:
1) Why should we admit this person when we have so many other applicants who didn't cheat?
2) Do we want THIS person as one of our students?

 

[Goro]

I read this somewhere else as well. Do you graduate programs require you to disclose these records?

Our SMP requires you to report felonies, military infractions and IAs.

 

[prepabostongirl]

Ditto at my school. There is data that shows that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students. My clinical colleagues take professionalism VERY seriously.

OP, the problem you face from ANY admissions committee at any professional school will be the mindsets of:
1) Why should we admit this person when we have so many other applicants who didn't cheat?
2) Do we want THIS person as one of our students?

I get that but isn't a bit draconian to not let fellow students to redeem themselves after a few years or with no record of anything happening onwards?

 

[Goro]

I get that but isn't a bit draconian to not let fellow students to redeem themselves after a few years or with no record of anything happening onwards?

For med schools, it's a seller's market. We can afford to take a pass on you.
That said, having as much time as possible pass between your infractions and app time is good, especially if that time is spent in positions of responsibility. there are Adcom members who believe in redemption.

 

[Dantes]

Kind of ambiguous but based on your school's policies I'm leaning towards no IA. Check your official transcript and your disciplinary record to make sure.

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

Request an official transcript. If it is not noted on the official transcript then you have no IA. Period.

Don’t give advice on this site if you don’t know what you’re talking about. The above quote is just not true and luckily other people have already contradicted it with more accurate advice about also checking the disciplinary record and not just the transcript. But just in case there are lurkers on this thread who don’t know about IAs and don’t know your comment is wrong: not all official IAs get noted on transcripts.

 

[LizzyM]

So my question although the dean's office is notified of the professor's sanctions because this is not going through a formal hearing (since I am not appealing it), is this incident that occurred in Orgo 2 considered an academic institutional action (IA)? I know PA and Med schools (and most graduate schools) have a section in which you have to disclose an IA even if it's expunged?
I am unsure if this is an IA and would need to be reported.

You may have dodged a bullet by taking a plea deal that avoided the formal hearing and the opportunity to appeal. You will need to read the instructions for the application(s) you will be submitting (whatever-CAS) and follow them. If you were applying through AMCAS you would be instructed to check with your university regarding any IAs even if they do not appear on your transcript or if they have been expunged. Whatever degree program you apply to may have a different policy; you'll need to check it out through the instruction manual published the year you apply.

You may be asked in an interview what happened in o-chem (the F on the transcript) and what you learned from that experience. Be thinking about how you will react and respond.

 

[prepabostongirl]

You may have dodged a bullet by taking a plea deal that avoided the formal hearing and the opportunity to appeal. You will need to read the instructions for the application(s) you will be submitting (whatever-CAS) and follow them. If you were applying through AMCAS you would be instructed to check with your university regarding any IAs even if they do not appear on your transcript or if they have been expunged. Whatever degree program you apply to may have a different policy; you'll need to check it out through the instruction manual published the year you apply.

You may be asked in an interview what happened in o-chem (the F on the transcript) and what you learned from that experience. Be thinking about how you will react and respond.

If asked should I just come clean if asked about the F and that's it?

And also, I went to the dean's office and was informed the person in charge of handling the report did not receive the conduct report yet but I was informed since no further action (an appeal/hearing) was requested so it'll just have the F on the transcript and it will not say it was an academic conduct violation. However, I was told for my disciplinary records that I have to go to the Student affairs office and check with them on Monday. If the student affairs office tells me that it is no IA according to their policy, should I get it in writing possibly in case something comes in the future if i do not disclose? Hoping for the best.

 

[prepabostongirl]

Don’t give advice on this site if you don’t know what you’re talking about. The above quote is just not true and luckily other people have already contradicted it with more accurate advice about also checking the disciplinary record and not just the transcript. But just in case there are lurkers on this thread who don’t know about IAs and don’t know your comment is wrong: not all official IAs get noted on transcripts.

Are disciplinary records forwarded to AMCAS, CASPA, etc?

 

[LizzyM]

Are disciplinary records forwarded to AMCAS, CASPA, etc?

Only with your written permission. Your file is confidential, under federal law, unless you authorize its release.

 

[Seihai]

Are disciplinary records forwarded to AMCAS, CASPA, etc?

To add to the above, it is easy to see a letter of evaluation offhandedly mentioning this incident or a transcript mentioning this information. Many schools will also expect you to explain poor grades on a transcript if not addressed anywhere else in your application. Not doing so is incredibly suspicious, and the only alternative to telling the truth about your infractions is to lie, which is strongly not recommended for obvious reasons.

Lying on your application is enough to get you rejected easily, but the real worst-case scenario is you getting in and attending for one or two years, having paid tuition, then the school finds out in some way that you lied on your application and then you are expelled from the school.

 

[prepabostongirl]

Only with your written permission. Your file is confidential, under federal law, unless you authorize its release.

I think i misworded my question. Will CAPSA, AMCAS, etc REQUEST these files? Or is it more of a like honor system and i should disclose it anyways?

 

[prepabostongirl]

To add to the above, it is easy to see a letter of evaluation offhandedly mentioning this incident or a transcript mentioning this information. Many schools will also expect you to explain poor grades on a transcript if not addressed anywhere else in your application. Not doing so is incredibly suspicious, and the only alternative to telling the truth about your infractions is to lie, which is strongly not recommended for obvious reasons.

Lying on your application is enough to get you rejected easily, but the real worst-case scenario is you getting in and attending for one or two years, having paid tuition, then the school finds out in some way that you lied on your application and then you are expelled from the school.

I see... I mean again Orgo is a difficult subject which people DO fail and it's not out of the ordinary. But I get what you're saying. Realistically will this hurt me a lot if it is an IA (that may get expunged later) that I disclose in the application or will they respect that I told the truth despite them possibly never finding out anyways?
I've read mixed things but i do find out this is an IA and disclose it, should i just mention in the application box or should I mention in personal statement as well?

 

[Seihai]

I think i misworded my question. Will CAPSA, AMCAS, etc REQUEST these files? Or is it more of a like honor system and i should disclose it anyways?

I am not really sure what CAPSA is, but AMCAS explicitly asks you to disclose all academic sanctions (regardless of whether they appear on your transcript or not). I would recommend you disclose them.

I see... I mean again Orgo is a difficult subject which people DO fail and it's not out of the ordinary. But I get what you're saying. Realistically will this hurt me a lot if it is an IA (that may get expunged later) that I disclose in the application or will they respect that I told the truth despite them possibly never finding out anyways?
I've read mixed things but i do find out this is an IA and disclose it, should i just mention in the application box or should I mention in personal statement as well?

As I mentioned above, I'd recommend you disclose them. The moral reasoning being that it's the right thing to do and owning up to your actions is an incredibly important part of being a physician. If you want to get to practical reasons (which I hate to use because it implies that ignoring the moral reasons is acceptable, but I say them all the same): you don't want to go through medical school, residency, and your future career with the fear of this getting out and ruining you hanging over your head forever.

 

[Moko]

AMCAS explicitly asks you to disclose all academic sanctions (regardless of whether they appear on your transcript or not).

Personally I agree with your interpretation, but what AMCAS actually asks is "if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment, require you to withdraw, or does not appear on your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition".

So it would seem that unacceptable conduct violations in themselves do not necessarily need to be reported, unless they resulted in an institutional action. Best way to know is to ask the school whether they considered a particular punishment to be an institutional action. I wish the wording of this was changed to avoid people getting off on a technicality.