Academic IA?

[Seihai]

Personally I agree with your interpretation, but what AMCAS actually asks is "if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment, require you to withdraw, or does not appear on your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition".

So it would seem that unacceptable conduct violations in themselves do not necessarily need to be reported, unless they resulted in an institutional action. Best way to know is to ask the school whether they considered a particular punishment to be an institutional action. I wish the wording of this was changed to avoid people getting off on a technicality.

This is fair. I interpreted "institutional action" as any action by any administrator/professor acting as a representative of the institution or by the institution itself (through a judiciary board or committee) that resulted in some kind of sanction (reduction in grades, 0 on an exam, etc.) rather than a warning.

I find that leaving it up to an institution to determine whether or not what they did constituted an "institutional action" is extremely subjective and inconsistent from school to school. I agree that AMCAS probably needs to change the wording on this question or more clearly define what medical schools consider to be an institutional action. Then again, I'm an applicant, so I'm a bit biased in that I would always like to have more clarification on everything.

Until then, we'll probably continue to see the standard drop-down/multiple-choice question on a secondary that asks this question in more detail (for some schools).

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[prepabostongirl]

I am not really sure what CAPSA is, but AMCAS explicitly asks you to disclose all academic sanctions (regardless of whether they appear on your transcript or not). I would recommend you disclose them.




As I mentioned above, I'd recommend you disclose them. The moral reasoning being that it's the right thing to do and owning up to your actions is an incredibly important part of being a physician. If you want to get to practical reasons (which I hate to use because it implies that ignoring the moral reasons is acceptable, but I say them all the same): you don't want to go through medical school, residency, and your future career with the fear of this getting out and ruining you hanging over your head forever.

Fair. Is there anything you would suggest I should do to show admissions that I grew from this situation? I'm not sure how to potentially recover. I was advised to take a few years off for damage control in case this is an IA that I do have to disclose. (CASPA is just for PA school application which i believe asks the same question the AMCAS does about IAs.)

 

[Seihai]

Fair. Is there anything you would suggest I should do to show admissions that I grew from this situation? I'm not sure how to potentially recover. I was advised to take a few years off for damage control in case this is an IA that I do have to disclose. (CASPA is just for PA school application which i believe asks the same question the AMCAS does about IAs.)

I'm just another student applying to medical school. Since you're applying to PA school and Nursing school, you're probably best off asking adcoms like @Moko or @Goro who might have some idea of how their admissions protocols translate to PA/Nursing admissions.

Personally, I think that your showing that you grew from this situation kind of flew out the window when you got a second violation. Taking a few years off to try to separate yourself from the person who cheated and showing maturity in a job/position of responsibility is probably the only real option you have. From what I've read in the past by adcoms, they usually recommend >5 years in such a role to show that you are actually a different person and that you have matured past what you did in your college years.

 

[Moko]

I'm just another student applying to medical school. Since you're applying to PA school and Nursing school, you're probably best off asking adcoms like @Moko or @Goro who might have some idea of how their admissions protocols translate to PA/Nursing admissions.

I know nothing about PA or nursing schools 🙂

 

[Seihai]

I know nothing about PA or nursing schools 🙂

I guessed as much. Tossed a tag out there in hopes that someone might have an idea, but I doubt that OP will get a very good answer here as it related to PA or Nursing specifically unless there is a PA/Nursing adcom lurking about somewhere.

 

[prepabostongirl]

I'm just another student applying to medical school. Since you're applying to PA school and Nursing school, you're probably best off asking adcoms like @Moko or @Goro who might have some idea of how their admissions protocols translate to PA/Nursing admissions.

Personally, I think that your showing that you grew from this situation kind of flew out the window when you got a second violation. Taking a few years off to try to separate yourself from the person who cheated and showing maturity in a job/position of responsibility is probably the only real option you have. From what I've read in the past by adcoms, they usually recommend >5 years in such a role to show that you are actually a different person and that you have matured past what you did in your college years.

Perhaps... not to excuse the clicker incident but that was a genuine misunderstanding of course policy as I had never used clickers in any of my previous classes at my main institution. However, to grad school apps this I would not disclose because this was never formally reported anywhere; the professor himself and the department chair has a record of what happened but that's it.

The more recent incident I'm very embarrassed for and I'm ashamed of. As I said it was a low point in my life and many personal issues going on at home that led me to crack under the pressure. But I'm hoping I can move to a future to grad school fairly soon 2-3 years if possible.

 

[prepabostongirl]

I guessed as much. Tossed a tag out there in hopes that someone might have an idea, but I doubt that OP will get a very good answer here as it related to PA or Nursing specifically unless there is a PA/Nursing adcom lurking about somewhere.

Well the PA/Nursing/Med school apps are very similar in their format and what they ask so I figured I could ask what I needed to here. I was referred to this forum from reddit and I think it has been fairly helpful. Not sure about NursingCAS (the nursing school app), but CASPA (PA school app), the question is exactly the same regarding IAs.

 

[honeybee87]

Personally I agree with your interpretation, but what AMCAS actually asks is "if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment, require you to withdraw, or does not appear on your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition".

So it would seem that unacceptable conduct violations in themselves do not necessarily need to be reported, unless they resulted in an institutional action. Best way to know is to ask the school whether they considered a particular punishment to be an institutional action. I wish the wording of this was changed to avoid people getting off on a technicality.

Unfortunately, the people who would cheat in the first place would not honor such a term and would click on “no, I have never cheated”

 

[Moko]

Unfortunately, the people who would cheat in the first place would not honor such a term and would click on “no, I have never cheated”

The consequences of lying though are hopefully sufficiently high to discourage such behavior, ie being kicked out of medical school after matriculation with no degree and a mountain of debt

 

[prepabostongirl]

The consequences of lying though are hopefully sufficiently high to discourage such behavior, ie being kicked out of medical school after matriculation with no degree and a mountain of debt

Has this actually ever happened?

 

[Moko]

Has this actually ever happened?

I've heard of one case before. It was before my time though

 

[ciestar]

Perhaps... not to excuse the clicker incident but that was a genuine misunderstanding of course policy as I had never used clickers in any of my previous classes at my main institution. However, to grad school apps this I would not disclose because this was never formally reported anywhere; the professor himself and the department chair has a record of what happened but that's it.

The more recent incident I'm very embarrassed for and I'm ashamed of. As I said it was a low point in my life and many personal issues going on at home that led me to crack under the pressure. But I'm hoping I can move to a future to grad school fairly soon 2-3 years if possible.

If you had to disclose that, this is a bad way to phrase it. Logically, nobody should have needed to say you were cheating. You were getting points when you werent actually present. How is that not cheating when you think about it?

I only had one class that used clickers. It said plain as day in the syllabus that this was cheating.

 

[prepabostongirl]

If you had to disclose that, this is a bad way to phrase it. Logically, nobody should have needed to say you were cheating. You were getting points when you werent actually present. How is that not cheating when you think about it?

I only had one class that used clickers. It said plain as day in the syllabus that this was cheating.

Well my syllabus didn't. It had a section of academic dishonesty but did not elaborate as to what constitutes as it and this was a relatively normal occurence (clicking in for others) in the class. Although I was at fault, I genuinely thought it would be not constitute as academic dishonesty. But I'm pretty sure I don't have to disclose this, I have to disclose the exam regrade alteration (i think)

 

[prepabostongirl]

I've heard of one case before. It was before my time though

What exactly happened?!

 

[Goro]

Unfortunately, the people who would cheat in the first place would not honor such a term and would click on “no, I have never cheated”

You would be surprised how often some people get outed by LOR writers who say something like "Honeybee has grown so much since the cheating incident"

And we look for the IA where it's supposed to be checked off...and ...nada.

These people not only get rejected, but AACOMAS gets notified, and they get blacklisted.

Our radar also goes off when we see an F in an otherwise nice sea of As and Bs. Things like that get asked about to the candidate at interview.

 

[prepabostongirl]

First off, I would not just assume that this does not require reporting. It sounds like there was a sanction for the clicker issue, and that may count as an institutional action even if higher-ups were not involved depending on how your school does things and what exactly your professor did. It sounds like you're planning on checking in with your Dean's office already and I would confirm whether this event is an IA this as well.

Second...you mentioned that you received a significant amount of points/credit for doing the clicker questions in class. You had someone else doing your clicker questions for you, and vice versa. This is essentially the same as having someone else do your homework or write your essay. Even without a specific policy about clicker questions on the syllabus, it should really be common sense that having someone else do the work for your grade is not appropriate. I don't intend to be rude or bash you here, so I apologize if this comes off as harsh. I'm just hoping that if you do need to explain the situation on an application, this perspective will help you do so in a way that will come across as mature, thoughtful, and reflective. I wish you the best with your career goals.

You're not coming off harsh at all! I want the honesty but like I said this was a genuine mistake and I have no reason to lie- it's over with and many others in my class didn't understand/know it was academic dishonesty as well. I don't think it was an IA as it wasn't formally reported like this recent incident but I am definitely checking with the Student Affairs on Monday. There was an informal sanction (handled between professor and my department head) but thank you I really appreciate this. On the topic of grad school apps, do you think the box that asks for IAs is the only place I should talk about this or in my personal statement as well?

 

[prepabostongirl]

You would be surprised how often some people get outed by LOR writers who say something like "Honeybee has grown so much since the cheating incident"

And we look for the IA where it's supposed to be checked off...and ...nada.

These people not only get rejected, but AACOMAS gets notified, and they get blacklisted.

Our radar also goes off when we see an F in an otherwise nice sea of As and Bs. Things like that get asked about to the candidate at interview.

How would a professor or a person writing the LOR know this though? Unless you asked the professor in which the incident occurred...

 

[Goro]

How would a professor or a person writing the LOR know this though? Unless you asked the professor in which the incident occurred...

LOR writers usually know their students. And Faculty talk amongst themselves about problematic students.

 

[LizzyM]

LOR writers usually know their students. And Faculty talk amongst themselves about problematic students.

true but this student was taking a summer course at another institution. Not likely to be reported in a LOR. Not saying she should fail to report an IA if it is, indeed, an IA but I wouldn't worry about a letter giving things away.

 

[prepabostongirl]

LOR writers usually know their students. And Faculty talk amongst themselves about problematic students.

I see. The LOR writers I'm getting from are from my main institution, not where I took orgo so I guess I don't have this issue. Also aren't professors not allowed to talk to other professors about student's academic history, etc?

 

[prepabostongirl]

Even if a lot of people were confused about the policy, explaining it in that way will not reflect well on you. Imagine, for instance, an attending physician who signs off on the note of a resident, PA, or NP without having actually seen the patient - it may not be uncommon, but it's still fraud, bad for the patient, and can get you in big trouble. In your explanations, I would just stick to basically "We had clickers, a friend and I did each others' clickers when we were not present in class, my punishment was X, I recognize that what I did was wrong and academically dishonest and I have grown since then."

This is just from my own experience being involved with the application process at my own med school while I was there, so take it with a grain of salt. I would say no, don't put it in your personal statement. Your PS is supposed to be about who you are and why you're interested in that career/program. I don't think talking about your history of academic dishonesty answers either of those questions.

Fair. Like I said, if i mention anything it's going to be this most recent incident because if anything is documented it is this incident. Not the clicker one. But thank you

 

[Goro]

I see. The LOR writers I'm getting from are from my main institution, not where I took orgo so I guess I don't have this issue. Also aren't professors not allowed to talk to other professors about student's academic history, etc?

To a degree we're not, but we do.

 

[honeybee87]

You would be surprised how often some people get outed by LOR writers who say something like "Honeybee has grown so much since the cheating incident"

And we look for the IA where it's supposed to be checked off...and ...nada.

These people not only get rejected, but AACOMAS gets notified, and they get blacklisted.

Our radar also goes off when we see an F in an otherwise nice sea of As and Bs. Things like that get asked about to the candidate at interview.

Lol thanks for tell me goro I just posted a thread on my insecurities for one of my LOR

 

[siliso]

Mentioning your grandma dying is actually a sign that you Don’t really take responsibility for what you did. Lots of people’s grandmas die (mine did) and they don’t cheat on tests as a result. It’s a revelation of what you personally are apt to do when you are under pressure and don’t get what you want: cheat. What have you done to show that you’ve changed?

 

[prepabostongirl]

Mentioning your grandma dying is actually a sign that you Don’t really take responsibility for what you did. Lots of people’s grandmas die (mine did) and they don’t cheat on tests as a result. It’s a revelation of what you personally are apt to do when you are under pressure and don’t get what you want: cheat. What have you done to show that you’ve changed?

Sheesh I didn't say it excused what I did, I said it was a very weak time for me BECAUSE of that which resulted in a lapse in judgment and I accept responsibility and I'm actually embarrassed/ashamed of what I did. This is the first time I cheated on an exam (although you don't have to believe me) and I fully regret it.

Not sure how that translated to "My grandpa died during the class so that gave me the 'okay' to cheat". If I truly didn't take responsibility for it, I wouldn't have come on this forum to ask how to better myself for my well-being and grad school apps.

 

[prepabostongirl]

To a degree we're not, but we do.

Not exactly the same situation, but I failed a prereq the first time I took it and didn't do much better the second time. An adcom straight up told me that it's ok, but just don't give excuses when it comes time to interview. State what you did wrong the first time and what you've learned from the mistake and move on. Bringing in the grandparent is completely unnecessary IMO. Simply stating you had a lapse of judgement and taking ownership of your mistake and providing evidence of how you have grown from that situation is all you need to say. Otherwise it comes off as an excuse and shows your lack of maturity and inability to take responsibility for your own wrongdoings.

Fair, I'll keep this in mind. I'm just lost as how to do this as this just happened and it will definitely deter future plans to an extent.