Acceptance rates for MD-PhD programs for top medicine-oriented schools?

[Macromind101]

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Like the title implies, can you guys give me an idea of what the acceptance rates for MD-PhD programs are looking like for top medicine-oriented schools like Johns Hopkins, Wash U in St. Louis and UC San Francisco?

Also, can you guys tell me what MD-PhD programs look for in applicants? I know that you definitely need stellar GPA & MCAT scores but can someone tell me within what range I need to even stand a chance? Also, what kinds of activities do MD/PhD programs look for? I already plan on volunteering at the University campus hospital, getting a research position in a clinical lab and working as a nursing aide after becoming CNA certified. I really could use some advice. Thank you!

 

[Psai]

Very low acceptance rates.
They're looking for research (abstracts, publications) and high GPA/MCAT
3.8/35
They want to see all activities that demonstrate that you're interested in medicine and interested in research.

You're welcome.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Moving to Pre-Allo.

 

[Cambover]

They have fewer applicants than regular admissions but also proportionally fewer matriculants. I had the stats at one point but think they were all <10%

Edit: A few years ago Hopkins had 575 applicants for 10 spots but even Nebraska had 64 applications for 4 openings.

 

[Anicetus]

Can't you apply for MD,PhD in the 2nd year at some schools after being admitted to the MD program?

 

[gyngyn]

Can't you apply for MD,PhD in the 2nd year at some schools after being admitted to the MD program?

Yes.

 

[Anicetus]

Yes.

Do you know if it is competitive to be submitted to the MD,PhD program that way or if they just revert back to your GPA/MCAT scores even if it's one year into Medical school?

 

[masaraksh]

Like the title implies, can you guys give me an idea of what the acceptance rates for MD-PhD programs are looking like for top medicine-oriented schools like Johns Hopkins, Wash U in St. Louis and UC San Francisco?

Also, can you guys tell me what MD-PhD programs look for in applicants? I know that you definitely need stellar GPA & MCAT scores but can someone tell me within what range I need to even stand a chance? Also, what kinds of activities do MD/PhD programs look for? I already plan on volunteering at the University campus hospital, getting a research position in a clinical lab and working as a nursing aide after becoming CNA certified. I really could use some advice. Thank you!

That (+ averageish MCAT/GPA) is about par for the course and may not even guarantee you an MD acceptance at all (let alone at a top school). Even all that with really good MCAT/GPA will not really standout among MD-PhD applicants.

Oh, and I can't see how the nursing aid thing will help an MD-PhD app. I'd say drop that. 'clinical lab' - what do you mean by this? Clinical research? Helping with outcomes papers and chart review? (because, thats on the very fluffy side of research).

The guys I've met that went MD-PhD became involved in serious basic science/biomedical engineering/translational research labs, labs that recieved grants like R01s. Got published. etc.

 

[masaraksh]

Can't you apply for MD,PhD in the 2nd year at some schools after being admitted to the MD program?

One thing that I've heard of actually is that students who go MEMP (PhD) can actually apply in and get an HMS MD. But, its not easy to get into MEMP.

 

[gyngyn]

Do you know if it is competitive to be submitted to the MD,PhD program that way or if they just revert back to your GPA/MCAT scores even if it's one year into Medical school?

Schools that select MD/PhD candidates from the admitted MD students tend to use your medical school performance and research potential demonstrated while in medical school instead of just your gpa/MCAT.

 

[Macromind101]

That (+ averageish MCAT/GPA) is about par for the course and may not even guarantee you an MD acceptance at all (let alone at a top school). Even all that with really good MCAT/GPA will not really standout among MD-PhD applicants.

Oh, and I can't see how the nursing aid thing will help an MD-PhD app. I'd say drop that. 'clinical lab' - what do you mean by this? Clinical research? Helping with outcomes papers and chart review? (because, thats on the very fluffy side of research).

The guys I've met that went MD-PhD became involved in serious basic science/biomedical engineering/translational research labs, labs that recieved grants like R01s. Got published. etc.

I've read on another thread that any kind of clinical occupation experience (even the "low-position" ones, as long as they are hands-on clinical occupations to an extent) will help with med school applications (idk about MD-PhD programs, though). And I was planning on nursing aide positions because it seems that they are pretty easy to get. Other occupations open to (certified) undergraduate students, like EMT's, are either not open at the university hospital that I'm looking at or certification requirements are way too hardcore and expensive (mostly expensive) for my limits. I don't know what else I can do other than nursing aide.

When I say clinical research, I mean an internship position in a clinical hospital lab (the volunteer program at the university hospital has the clinical research lab as an option). I suppose that opportunities within the hospital lab that I'm talking about is fairly limited to newcomers with no experience but I actually do have bench research internship & biotechnology experience from high school so hopefully, that will give me some credibility to start off with something that's higher than washing dishes and test tubes.

 

[Prion13]

I've read on another thread that any kind of clinical occupation experience (even the "low-position" ones, as long as they are hands-on clinical occupations to an extent) will help with med school applications (idk about MD-PhD programs, though). And I was planning on nursing aide positions because it seems that they are pretty easy to get. Other occupations open to (certified) undergraduate students, like EMT's, are either not open at the university hospital that I'm looking at or certification requirements are way too hardcore and expensive (mostly expensive) for my limits. I don't know what else I can do other than nursing aide.

When I say clinical research, I mean an internship position in a clinical hospital lab (the volunteer program at the university hospital has the clinical research lab as an option). I suppose that opportunities within the hospital lab that I'm talking about is fairly limited to newcomers with no experience but I actually do have bench research internship & biotechnology experience from high school so hopefully, that will give me some credibility to start off with something that's higher than washing dishes and test tubes.

Successful MD/PhD applicants in any program (not just top ones) have at least a couple years of basic (or basic-heavy translational) research minimum (ideally with your own independent project), and research is by far the most important extracurricular. It sounds to me that you do not have much basic research at this time and that the clinical research lab would not likely give you sufficient research experience, especially if you are only doing it on the side of a nursing aide position. Are you sure that you really want to be an Md/PhD student without having really testing your interest with an intensive research experience, or would an MD-only pathway be more suitable? Four extra years is a lot, and you can do a lot of research in med school even without doing an MD/PhD, including taking an extra fifth year for research which many schools will waive tuition for that year for you to do it. If you do decide to, realize that you will need a lot more research experience, and check out the Physician Scientist subforum for more info on applying MD/PhD.

 

[Macromind101]

Successful MD/PhD applicants in any program (not just top ones) have at least a couple years of basic (or basic-heavy translational) research minimum (ideally with your own independent project), and research is by far the most important extracurricular. It sounds to me that you do not have much basic research at this time and that the clinical research lab would not likely give you sufficient research experience, especially if you are only doing it on the side of a nursing aide position. Are you sure that you really want to be an Md/PhD student without having really testing your interest with an intensive research experience, or would an MD-only pathway be more suitable? Four extra years is a lot, and you can do a lot of research in med school even without doing an MD/PhD, including taking an extra fifth year for research which many schools will waive tuition for that year for you to do it. If you do decide to, realize that you will need a lot more research experience, and check out the Physician Scientist subforum for more info on applying MD/PhD.

Alright, then what would you define as "an intensive research experience"? The reason that I do not have much basic research at this time is because I just recently graduate from high school and I have yet to enter my first semester in college. I think that being in two research labs at the same time (if that's what you were indicating) is not a smart idea as it would be too time-consuming for a full-time student. I would much prefer to work in a clinical lab setting since it is most closely correlated to what I want to do as a career and if I am indeed successful in obtaining a dual degree in MD-PhD, then I will most likely work in a clinical lab setting along with being a physician (a neurosurgeon is currently my career plan). And since I am in the honors college at my university and the honors college requires you to publish a thesis by the end of your senior year, I will probably do neuroscience/biochemistry research at the clinical lab setting in my senior year (I am planning on double-majoring in neuroscience/biochemistry) so that I can publish my thesis and graduate with honors. Does that seem like enough for a MD-PhD candidate?

 

[masaraksh]

Maybe I'm just old, but I just 🙄 when I see a college freshman talk about MD-PhD and being a neurosurgeon.

But, putting that aside, I'll give some actual advice. No, I do not think that high school research + a 'lax clinical research gig' + an honors thesis as part of your coursework is going to make you stand out as an MD-PhD applicant. Pretty much no one will list the high school stuff on their app.

Top MD-PhD applicants are intense. A guy I know who got into an Ivy MD-PhD, was a HYP Biomed Engineering grad with research experiences during ugrad, + 2 years post college at a top consulting firm + 2 more years of medical research at a hospital + the obvious good grades/MCAT

 

[Reckoner]

Hi @Macromind101, take a look at this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/what-are-my-chances-read-before-asking.539268/

And peruse this entire forum, including the stickies: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/physician-scientists.32/

To answer your question about competitiveness, take a look at this table: https://www.aamc.org/download/321544/data/2013factstable33.pdf
(in short, extremely competitive. The applicant pool is a pretty high-achieving group as a whole, meaning your 3.9/38 or similar isn't going to set you apart at big brand name schools)

I would much prefer to work in a clinical lab setting since it is most closely correlated to what I want to do as a career and if I am indeed successful in obtaining a dual degree in MD-PhD, then I will most likely work in a clinical lab setting along with being a physician (a neurosurgeon is currently my career plan).

But based on this statemnt, it doesn't sound to me like the dual degree is the best option for you. These programs are often frank about their desire to train basic scientists, and the general consensus on the physician scientist boards is that a PhD is not necessary to do clinical research.

 

[NervousNerd]

Alright, then what would you define as "an intensive research experience"? The reason that I do not have much basic research at this time is because I just recently graduate from high school and I have yet to enter my first semester in college. I think that being in two research labs at the same time (if that's what you were indicating) is not a smart idea as it would be too time-consuming for a full-time student. I would much prefer to work in a clinical lab setting since it is most closely correlated to what I want to do as a career and if I am indeed successful in obtaining a dual degree in MD-PhD, then I will most likely work in a clinical lab setting along with being a physician (a neurosurgeon is currently my career plan). And since I am in the honors college at my university and the honors college requires you to publish a thesis by the end of your senior year, I will probably do neuroscience/biochemistry research at the clinical lab setting in my senior year (I am planning on double-majoring in neuroscience/biochemistry) so that I can publish my thesis and graduate with honors. Does that seem like enough for a MD-PhD candidate?

I have the same setup for a program at my school, required research and thesis for a program I was awarded. DONT WAIT FOR THIS TO START.

Find a lab now. Get a publication if you can. PM me and I can talk more if you'd like.

 

[DrowningInWork]

Maybe I'm just old, but I just 🙄 when I see a college freshman talk about MD-PhD and being a neurosurgeon.

Actually, my sister decided she was going to do MD/PhD and hem/onc when she was 15, and she's currently at a top 10 MSTP doing research in that area. Don't be so skeptical just because someone is young.

 

[Reckoner]

Actually, my sister decided she was going to do MD/PhD and hem/onc when she was 15, and she's currently at a top 10 MSTP doing research in that area. Don't be so skeptical just because someone is young.

Your sister is exceptional. Being skeptical in this regard is very well justified.

 

[Aerus]

Like the title implies, can you guys give me an idea of what the acceptance rates for MD-PhD programs are looking like for top medicine-oriented schools like Johns Hopkins, Wash U in St. Louis and UC San Francisco?

Also, can you guys tell me what MD-PhD programs look for in applicants? I know that you definitely need stellar GPA & MCAT scores but can someone tell me within what range I need to even stand a chance? Also, what kinds of activities do MD/PhD programs look for? I already plan on volunteering at the University campus hospital, getting a research position in a clinical lab and working as a nursing aide after becoming CNA certified. I really could use some advice. Thank you!

You should do MD only. It's a much better path if you want to do clinical research. MD/PhD programs are geared towards producing basic science researchers. Your high school research, clinical research, and senior thesis won't make yourself stand out, which is something you want to do in such a selective process. I know many students who did a lot of research in high school and even published in basic science while in undergrad and they are worried about not getting into an MD/PhD program.

 

[DrowningInWork]

Your sister is exceptional. Being skeptical in this regard is very well justified.

God, why is everyone on sdn so cynical? If someone wants to go into medicine, I say good on them, even if they haven't YET proven they have what it takes. Is it SO difficult to be encouraging to kids who are interested in this career path, rather than doubting their abilities before you know anything about their intelligence, drive, and commitment? Geez.

 

[capnncrunch]

I would bet that many people like the OP that have done research and such in high school go on to get into medical school. In high school, I was just a kid enjoying spending time with friends and girlfriends. I never even thought about research nor knew people could do such a thing so young. Props to OP for dreaming big.

 

[Aerus]

I would bet that many people like the OP that have done research and such in high school go on to get into medical school. In high school, I was just a kid enjoying spending time with friends and girlfriends. I never even thought about research nor knew people could do such a thing so young. Props to OP for dreaming big.

No, that isn't a correct assumption. I know a lot of people who did research in high school (was published and had multiple prestigious awards) who are struggling right now in my school. If they don't do something to change their study habits, they won't even pass the filters for med school, let alone be competitive.

 

[Reckoner]

God, why is everyone on sdn so cynical? If someone wants to go into medicine, I say good on them, even if they haven't YET proven they have what it takes. Is it SO difficult to be encouraging to kids who are interested in this career path, rather than doubting their abilities before you know anything about their intelligence, drive, and commitment? Geez.

Who said anything about not being encouraging? And is it really cynicism to doubt the commitment of an 18 year old (or younger, in your sister's case) to a training pathway that could take more time than they've been alive? Based on the number of people who actually follow through on those plans I would call it justified skepticism. It's not even a matter of doubting ability - plenty of extremely able people decide at some point that the years in school, difficulty competing for grants, and decreased pay are not worth it to them.

I'll argue that SDN's skepticism is a good thing. Having your motives questioned can be much more informative than blind enthusiasm. Case in point: the OP, whose interests don't even appear to line up with dual degree training.

 

[capnncrunch]

No, that isn't a correct assumption. I know a lot of people who did research in high school (was published and had multiple prestigious awards) who are struggling right now in my school. If they don't do something to change their study habits, they won't even pass the filters for med school, let alone be competitive.

I said I'd bet. I didn't say I'd win money ! Anyways, I'm assuming you're at a fairly prestigious school? Maybe I'm just giving people too much credit based on the people I've seen get into medical school.

 

[LizzyM]

Like the title implies, can you guys give me an idea of what the acceptance rates for MD-PhD programs are looking like for top medicine-oriented schools like Johns Hopkins, Wash U in St. Louis and UC San Francisco?

Also, can you guys tell me what MD-PhD programs look for in applicants? I know that you definitely need stellar GPA & MCAT scores but can someone tell me within what range I need to even stand a chance? Also, what kinds of activities do MD/PhD programs look for? I already plan on volunteering at the University campus hospital, getting a research position in a clinical lab and working as a nursing aide after becoming CNA certified. I really could use some advice. Thank you!

What you are asking is "what does it take to get into a PhD program at a top school and to get admitted to a top medical school at the same time?" As you might imagine, it takes top grades and scores, more so for the MD than the PhD. The MD side is going to expect some exposure to patient care settings and some indication that you are familiar with what physicians do, not just the time spent with patients but the other parts of the day as well. This experience can be acquired by shadowing physicians and, for candidates for MD/PhD programs, ideally you will have shadowed an MD/PhD in both lab and clinic to get an idea of the realities of that career path. Because medicine is a service industry, you should have some evidence that you enjoy being of service to others, so try to get some period of volunteering in your community. MD/PhD folks are also expected to teach so you can get a tw0-for-one by doing volunteer service as a tutor in a HS or college setting after you have some college under your belt. Being a teaching assistant (TA) in college is also a good teaching experienc.e

The PhD admissions side of the equation will be looking for research experience throughout college meaning you should aim to get into a research lab during the summer after freshman year, through the next two academic years and summers and perhaps to take a year or two off after college to work full-time in a research lab at the NIH or an academic medical center. Your aim should be publications of your work, presentations at national meetings, and outside funding of your work. Your goal should be to acquire laboratory skills that are transferable to other lab settings.

As you go through the next 3-4 years of school, you'll get a better idea of whether a MD/PhD is a good choice for you. Don't choose it just because it covers tuition and living expenses. You "pay" for that with additional years in school. If your ideal career is to be in clinical settings for 20% of your time and in the lab 80% (one half day week in operating suite and one half-day per week in pre-op/post-op clinic with the rest of the time in lab) then MD/PhD might be the right path for you. Otherwise, you are better off doing MD and getting research training during a fellowshp. This might include a MS in clinical research that will be paid for by your fellowship program.

 

[karayaa]

Don't choose it just because it covers tuition and living expenses. You "pay" for that with additional years in school.

OP, also keep in mind that most MD/PhDs work at academic medical centers, where the pay is substantially lower than private practice. You won't be making neurosurgery dollars, you'll be making research professor dollars (unless you're a rockstar professor but even so). So don't do it just for financial security. 75% of MDs take out loans and they don't go bankrupt unless they really mismanage their money.

 

[gettheleadout]

What is a "medicine-oriented school?"


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[Aerus]

I said I'd bet. I didn't say I'd win money ! Anyways, I'm assuming you're at a fairly prestigious school? Maybe I'm just giving people too much credit based on the people I've seen get into medical school.

Research in high school is becoming more and more common nowadays and is more correlated with connections and/or affluence rather than intelligence or ability to succeed in a college environment. That isn't to say these are mutually exclusive, that high school kids who do research aren't intelligent or don't have the ability to succeed academically in college, but I wouldn't hold everyone who did research in high school on a pedestal.