Accepted to a Top 10.... BUT...

[OldSpice]

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Accepted to a top 10 medical school BUT, it is specifically for combined degree program (5 years). I did some soul searching and would prefer that my medical training be completed as soon as possible so that I can get on with my life... I'm not very interested in spending this extra year working towards the completion of another Masters degree (I already have one). (Note: this extra degree will be paid for in full by the university... so it won't cost me $$, only time)

Also accepted to a lesser known but top 50(research)/top 25(primary care) 4yr MD program. (Accepted to some other schools too, but not interested in any of them).

Both acceptances are in very desirable geographic locations. Curriculum at both schools are nearly identical.

I know that rankings can be arbitrary and therefore, should not carry much weight in such a decision... but the reality is this - name recognition CAN in some capacity be beneficial, whether people choose to believe it or not.

Question: Would it be foolish to turn down an acceptance to a "Top 10" program (with a free Masters degree) given my options/preferences?
Do I complete the 5 year pathway so that I can somehow reap the unforeseen benefits of "prestige" in the future? What would you do?

(My prediction is that the majority of SDN'ers will opt for school 2 because it's a more politically correct choice... but we'll see) (Also, I in NO way take for granted these opportunities... I consider myself to be extremely lucky)

 

[ApoK]

I vote combined program. Ultimately, it will benefit you in the long run. One year isn't the end of the world, particularly if you don't have to pay for it.

 

[sarahl86]

Is there no way to opt out of the 5th year program? It seems odd if you couldn't. I'd stick with the dual degree if I were you, regardless of if you already have one unless they're in the same field. It will likely help you in the long run.

 

[Bacchus]

Accepted to a top 10 medical school BUT, it is specifically for combined degree program (5 years). I did some soul searching and would prefer that my medical training be completed as soon as possible so that I can get on with my life... I'm not very interested in spending this extra year working towards the completion of another Masters degree (I already have one). (Note: this extra degree will be paid for in full by the university... so it won't cost me $$, only time)

Also accepted to a lesser known but top 50(research)/top 25(primary care) 4yr MD program. (Accepted to some other schools too, but not interested in any of them).

Both acceptances are in very desirable geographic locations. Curriculum at both schools are nearly identical.

I know that rankings can be arbitrary and therefore, should not carry much weight in such a decision... but the reality is this - name recognition CAN in some capacity be beneficial, whether people choose to believe it or not.

Question: Would it be foolish to turn down an acceptance to a "Top 10" program (with a free Masters degree) given my options/preferences?
Do I complete the 5 year pathway so that I can somehow reap the unforeseen benefits of "prestige" in the future? What would you do?

(My prediction is that the majority of SDN'ers will opt for school 2 because it's a more politically correct choice... but we'll see) (Also, I in NO way take for granted these opportunities... I consider myself to be extremely lucky)

Can you matriculate at the top 10 and opt out of the masters degree? You'd be saving the school money.

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

Is there no way to opt out of the 5th year program? It seems odd if you couldn't. I'd stick with the dual degree if I were you, regardless of if you already have one unless they're in the same field. It will likely help you in the long run.

i agree with this.

would you mind sharing how you got into this situation? did you apply for this program and then just have a change of heart?

 

[sarahg]

If it costs you a year it essentially costs you at least $100k, depending on what specialty you eventually choose. If you can't opt out, and you don't think you'll use the degree anyways, and the curriculums and locations are comparable, I say only go to the top 10 if you think you'll be interested in the most competitive specialties or in doing academic work later.

If you can opt out, or if you think you'll want to do work that the degree will be helpful for, go ahead and go to the top 10. You might change your mind in 4 years and want the degree anyways.

 

[drizzt3117]

I'd go with the top tier school, personally. I wasn't aware of any top tier schools (with the exception of CCLCM, which is totally free in any case) that require a 5th year (unless you're talking about stanford)

 

[NotAndrew]

I say go with the 4 year, not because it is politically correct, but because 4 Years>5 Years.

 

[Moonspun]

Sounds like UCSF/UC Berkeley JMP. My question is, why would you have applied to the 5 year program originally? Clearly you deemed it of worth at one point in time. 1 extra year isn't really a waste of time, especially if it isn't putting you into debt and it is a really really well respected program. Plus, JMP sounds really cool.

In the end, of course, it is your call. You should decide if the factors emphasized in the 5 year program are of worth to you in the long run, whichever program it may be. Medicine is a long road; one year that may give you research connections and may enhance your medical education is not going to break you if you find it of some value.

 

[airplanes]

Sounds like UCSF/UC Berkeley JMP. My question is, why would you have applied to the 5 year program originally? Clearly you deemed it of worth at one point in time. 1 extra year isn't really a waste of time, especially if it isn't putting you into debt and it is a really really well respected program. Plus, JMP sounds really cool.

In the end, of course, it is your call. You should decide if the factors emphasized in the 5 year program are of worth to you in the long run, whichever program it may be. Medicine is a long road; one year that may give you research connections and may enhance your medical education is not going to break you if you find it of some value.

It's one year, don't worry about it.

 

[BlueElmo]

I would also go with the 4 year degree. No one wants to stay in school for that long.

 

[nabeel76]

Most programs at the top tiers that allow you to complete an MBA or another masters degree etc. are designed so that you complete the 1 year master's program either after your 2nd year of medical school, prior to your rotations, or more commonly with an additional year after you complete your 4 years of medical school. Any required research can be done during the summers. In other words your first year of medical school will just be medical school.

This being the case I am sure if you matriculate at the school and then indicate that you want to withdraw from the masters program after you have already started then you will have invested no additional time in pursuit of the masters, thus effectively turning the 5 year program back into a 4 year program. I am also pretty sure that they will not force you to withdraw from the medical school concidering you've already taken a seat in the class that cannot be given to someone else etc. Another benefit in withdrawing after you've started is that it will also give you more time to think about whether you really want to withdraw from the masters or not. If its only an additional year than I wouldn't be so quick to conclude that you don't want to go through it just yet if its only a question of time.

 

[Red Leader]

Combined. Then try to drop the MS part of the combined program. If you fail, just put in the year.

 

[chief illiniwek]

it sounds like you would rather be in the four-year program at the less-reputable school. so, the question is: how much do you care about going to a "top 10"? in all honesty, unless the match statistics for the two programs are completely incomparable, the reputation of your school or an extra masters won't do much for you as long as you perform well in med school and plan on going the traditional route with your career. hope that helps.

and good luck with your decision.

 

[OldSpice]

Is there no way to opt out of the 5th year program? It seems odd if you couldn't. I'd stick with the dual degree if I were you, regardless of if you already have one unless they're in the same field. It will likely help you in the long run.

I can't opt out of the 5th year. And yeah, I suppose it could help later down the road but there is also the possibility that the MS/MBA/MPH/etc. won't make any difference in job/residency opportunities. But of course, that's only my speculation - though, it might be a good question for a separate thread. Also, another degree could always be be added on at the school 2 (top 50/top 25) if I so choose.

i agree with this.

would you mind sharing how you got into this situation? did you apply for this program and then just have a change of heart?

I'd rather not get into the details of the school/program. Since the accepted cohort is small, I'm trying my best to maintain anonymity. And yes, while applying and interviewing - it sounded great... but just recently I had a change of heart.

I've been looking more closely into different residency options and it is becoming so much clearer now how LONG and ARDUOUS the entire process really is. Right now, my interest is in surgery (yes, it'll most likely change, I know) and surgical residencies can be lengthy.

Sounds like UCSF/UC Berkeley JMP...

....................................................



Essentially, I'm afraid that my commitment to the advanced degree will dwindle and I'll just hate life for that entire year... But then again, it could be a nice little break from medical school coursework.

I guess what it really comes down to is this:
How valuable is it to have graduated from a "Top 10" medical school? How much will residency programs care about name-brand training?

 

[GeraldMonroe]

How much will residency programs care about name-brand training?

They care enough that they'll take you 1.23 times more over someone who isn't from a name brand program.
https://services.aamc.org/Publicati...ion=Product.displayForm&prd_id=197&prv_id=238

That's not a huge difference, and probably isn't worth a year from a sheer probability perspective. See, the expected value of taking an extra year is -$170,000 + loan interest. More than that if you have your heart set on surgery.

However, there's a small chance you could fail to match into your desired residency. For instance, what if you wanted plastic surgery, which U.S. seniors have a 63% chance of matching. If you came from a top 40 school, you'd have a 70% chance of matching. Thus, there's a 7% increased chance you might have to reapply if you went to a less than top 40 school. For the sake of simplifying the math, let's say you are 100% sure you'd get accepted if you reapplied the next year (not at all true for a borderline candidate, but you won't be one of those, right?)

If you heart were set on plastic surgery, and you went to the lower ranked school, you'd gain $189,000 (expected value of taking one less year by multiply 63% * average salary of a plastic surgeon) but there's a chance you wouldn't match, taking 7% away from the 189k. So, if you went to a lower tier school, wanted to be a plastic surgeon from day 1 and did the work to make yourself a top tier candidate, you'd come out ahead by an expected value of $168k. The same math works for all the other specialties.

 

[scarletgirl777]

If this is a PRIME program for example, then I think you can't opt out.

Something made you apply to this program. Presumably there were extra essays and there was extra benefit so you didn't apply and get accepted on a whim. Extra degrees can also be really helpful in making you more marketable post residency on the job market. I would personally take the plunge and go in the five year program.

 

[airplanes]

I would also go with the 4 year degree. No one wants to stay in school for that long.

13 years of K-12. Let's say 4 years of undergrad if you go straight through without any additional degrees. What's the difference between adding 4 instead of 5 more years to that total? less than 5%. If you really don't want the degree then try to opt out of it, but one measly year shouldn't be your deciding factor.

 

[OldSpice]

Generally speaking, I hear medical school reputation doesn't make much difference for residency placement... but I wonder if this still holds for graduates of "Top 10" programs. To my understanding, "name recognition" can be valuable for a handful of reasons. While I understand that "prestige" won't compensate for a low board score or lack of meaningful experiences pertinent to a specific career path, it could send the message "hey, she must have SOMEthing special/worthy/unique/admirable if she was accepted to and has recently graduated from XYZ school." I could be completely wrong but nevertheless, I'm just looking for what OTHER people would do if they were in my shoes.

 

[CeeLos]

Accepted to a top 10 medical school BUT, it is specifically for combined degree program (5 years). I did some soul searching and would prefer that my medical training be completed as soon as possible so that I can get on with my life... I'm not very interested in spending this extra year working towards the completion of another Masters degree (I already have one). (Note: this extra degree will be paid for in full by the university... so it won't cost me $$, only time)

Also accepted to a lesser known but top 50(research)/top 25(primary care) 4yr MD program. (Accepted to some other schools too, but not interested in any of them).

Both acceptances are in very desirable geographic locations. Curriculum at both schools are nearly identical.

I know that rankings can be arbitrary and therefore, should not carry much weight in such a decision... but the reality is this - name recognition CAN in some capacity be beneficial, whether people choose to believe it or not.

Question: Would it be foolish to turn down an acceptance to a "Top 10" program (with a free Masters degree) given my options/preferences?
Do I complete the 5 year pathway so that I can somehow reap the unforeseen benefits of "prestige" in the future? What would you do?

(My prediction is that the majority of SDN'ers will opt for school 2 because it's a more politically correct choice... but we'll see) (Also, I in NO way take for granted these opportunities... I consider myself to be extremely lucky)

If you are already having doubts... then I think you should go with the 4 year. My brother personally was going the same route in med school, then had a change of heart because he wanted to get to work as soon as possible. He regretted taking that year off. Especially if you want to go into surgery, I would stick with your gut instinct (especially if you have a masters already) and stick with the other acceptance. Besides, ultimately it comes down to how well you do on USMLE and your rotations. Judging by your multiple acceptances, your a pretty smart person and I know you will get into your top choices for residency regardless of your school

Dont listen to everyone here... just listen to yourself.

 

[dropofTapioca]

OldSpice,

Why don't you look at the residency track record of the 2 schools you are considering? That should give you some directly relevant data. Some of the schools I am considering have already given me this information.

 

[dropofTapioca]

Ok, now as for what I would do: For the sake of discussion, let's say that the Top 10 school is Johns Hopkins, and that the Top 50 school is University of Utah (ranked 50th by research in recent US News & World Report rankings). If I were in that position, I would definitely go to Hopkins over the University of Utah. No question.

In my mind, the cost of spending 1 extra year would be far outweighed by the benefits of attending Hopkins over the University of Utah. These benefits would be:

1) Residency Choice: Of course, I would get some hard data on the track records of the 2 schools you are looking at. But I have a strong feeling that going to Hopkins over Utah(as in this particular example) will make it more likely that you will get your residency of choice, at a top tier school to boot. And getting your first choice residency is very important....because that will be your work for the rest of your career! Spending 1 extra year to ensure the next ~30 years is definitely a good deal.

Another poster previously mentioned it would be more financially productive to graduate in 4 years from a school like Utah, rather than in 5 years from a school like Hopkins. I highly disagree. The choice of specialty is the dominating factor in future salary. A year is not much compared to the salary differences that people in different specialties make. And again, spending an extra year at Hopkins puts the choice more into your hands.

2) Future Career Opportunities: a) Being from Hopkins, rather than Utah, will make you a stronger applicant when applying to jobs post-residency or post-fellowship. (I admittedly have no data on this, but come on) b) Similarly, patients are more likely to choose you as their doctor if you're in private practice. c) Nurses, technicians, other doctors, the head of the hospital, you name it, will treat you differently if you are a Hopkins graduate versus a Utah graduate. Why not get the respect you deserve?

3) Fun(?): Going to Hopkins will certainly expose you to some of the cutting edge/best stuff being done in medicine, so that's where I would go. Then again, Utah may have some specific strengths that I don't know about, so this might be worth comparing.

Conclusion: Despite what I've said, med school isn't everything. I'm not convinced that going to Hopkins will necessarily make a you a better doctor than going to Utah. IMO, that will depend more on you than on the school's pedigree. But if all else is equal, then spending an extra year at the Top 10 school is definitely worth it.

And a final note: I apologize to anyone who attends Utah or is headed there. I did not mean to give offense, but to merely make a point. I know that this is a difficult time for some of us who are considering med schools that were not necessarily our first choice, and I hope that this post is not the source of any discouragement.

 

[WannaBePreMed]

UCSF 👍 do it

 

[OldSpice]

dropofTapioca,

Law2Doc, has written a ton of posts explaining how match lists are often misinterpreted and poorly understood by lay pre-meds. Essentially, they aren't very good markers for postgraduate opportunities. How do we really know which schools are "good" for, say, dermatology? Meharry or Howard may have the "best" derm residency out there but our lack of experience would immediately lead most of us to believe otherwise.

Nevertheless, I was very, very impressed by the match list from the top 10 school... school 2's program on the other hand seemed more "average." I make this comment based solely on my very superficial understanding of what I know to be "competitive" (# of optho, anesth, surg, uro, neurosurg, etc) @ (ucsf, hopkins, stanford, mayo, etc.)

 

[OldSpice]

They care enough that they'll take you 1.23 times more over someone who isn't from a name brand program.
https://services.aamc.org/Publicati...ion=Product.displayForm&prd_id=197&prv_id=238

That's not a huge difference, and probably isn't worth a year from a sheer probability perspective. See, the expected value of taking an extra year is -$170,000 + loan interest. More than that if you have your heart set on surgery.

However, there's a small chance you could fail to match into your desired residency. For instance, what if you wanted plastic surgery, which U.S. seniors have a 63% chance of matching. If you came from a top 40 school, you'd have a 70% chance of matching. Thus, there's a 7% increased chance you might have to reapply if you went to a less than top 40 school. For the sake of simplifying the math, let's say you are 100% sure you'd get accepted if you reapplied the next year (not at all true for a borderline candidate, but you won't be one of those, right?)

If you heart were set on plastic surgery, and you went to the lower ranked school, you'd gain $189,000 (expected value of taking one less year by multiply 63% * average salary of a plastic surgeon) but there's a chance you wouldn't match, taking 7% away from the 189k. So, if you went to a lower tier school, wanted to be a plastic surgeon from day 1 and did the work to make yourself a top tier candidate, you'd come out ahead by an expected value of $168k. The same math works for all the other specialties.

That's an awesome point. Essentially, one less year of practice equals one less year of earning power as a full-fledged physician. These days, you can get a pretty darn good house for 170K.

But in the grand scheme of things... if Physician X has worked for 25 years and Physician Y has worked for 26 years... will there really be much difference?

(I know, I take a very Socratic approach to finding answers)

 

[Greonis]

Ok, now as for what I would do: For the sake of discussion, let's say that the Top 10 school is Johns Hopkins, and that the Top 50 school is University of Utah (ranked 50th by research in recent US News & World Report rankings). If I were in that position, I would definitely go to Hopkins over the University of Utah. No question.

In my mind, the cost of spending 1 extra year would be far outweighed by the benefits of attending Hopkins over the University of Utah. These benefits would be:

1) Residency Choice: Of course, I would get some hard data on the track records of the 2 schools you are looking at. But I have a strong feeling that going to Hopkins over Utah(as in this particular example) will make it more likely that you will get your residency of choice, at a top tier school to boot. And getting your first choice residency is very important....because that will be your work for the rest of your career! Spending 1 extra year to ensure the next ~30 years is definitely a good deal.

There are two problems with that notion. First of all, as has been mentioned, residency placement is overwhelmingly based on many factors that are unrelated to a school's prestige. Location, the specialty preferences of the particular class in question, and local influences (for example, a professor who inspires many students to pursue a particular specialty) are three examples that are far more likely to matter during the course of a medical student's studies than the school's name. The second problem is that the best residencies are not necessarily at "top" schools. A residency, even if it does have a well-known name attached, may very well not be the best at preparing residents for practice or getting them the highest starting salaries. Thus, depending on the specialty that the OP ultimately chooses, it is not impossible that he/she would find better options closer to Utah than in Baltimore.

2) Future Career Opportunities: a) Being from Hopkins, rather than Utah, will make you a stronger applicant when applying to jobs post-residency or post-fellowship. (I admittedly have no data on this, but come on) b) Similarly, patients are more likely to choose you as their doctor if you're in private practice. c) Nurses, technicians, other doctors, the head of the hospital, you name it, will treat you differently if you are a Hopkins graduate versus a Utah graduate. Why not get the respect you deserve?

To point A, your residency placement is going to be of far greater importance. In all practices that I've had exposure to, not one iota of attention is paid to the medical school that the physicians went to (and I've seen practices with mixtures of physicians from "top" programs and "average" programs). To point B, unless you are going into an outlier career (for example, striving to be the personal physician of a celebrity), few - if any - patients will care about where you went to school. Medical educations are standardized for a reason, as are residencies, and most people are going to be too preoccupied with just seeing any qualified physician/getting their problem solved to stop and ask where their physician went to medical school many years ago. In my experience, people tend to look for institutions (IE: specific hospitals) that are well known for a particular treatment, and the physicians who work for said institution are associated with the institution, and never their individual medical schools that they graduated from. Point C is completely untrue; your qualities as a person are going to be infinitely more important than your medical school name at determining the amount of respect that you receive from your peers.

3) Fun(?): Going to Hopkins will certainly expose you to some of the cutting edge/best stuff being done in medicine, so that's where I would go. Then again, Utah may have some specific strengths that I don't know about, so this might be worth comparing.

I assume here that you're referring to research. I won't deny that Hopkins is likely to have more research going on at any given time, but as a medical student not seeking an additional research-related degree, just how much exposure to said "cutting edge/best stuff" do you think you'll have over your four years? Probably not enough to explore all of that research. The exception, of course (and I'm not sure if Hopkins falls into this category), are schools that strongly emphasize research within their curricula. Were the OP to express a strong interest in research, and were the school with more research funding to offer a more research-intensive program, then I would certainly support their enrolling in the top school. Research, after all, is one area where prestige has the potential to play a larger role. But even then, that decision is based on far more than just the name (in this case, preferences).

Conclusion: Despite what I've said, med school isn't everything. I'm not convinced that going to Hopkins will necessarily make a you a better doctor than going to Utah. IMO, that will depend more on you than on the school's pedigree. But if all else is equal, then spending an extra year at the Top 10 school is definitely worth it.

All else is never equal, and you aren't convinced of that because you are right: your medical school name will not determine how good of a doctor you become, which I assume means how well you can relate to patients and treat them. That will likely be determined by your personal qualities and your residency.

 

[ACSurgeon]

That's an awesome point. Essentially, one less year of practice equals one less year of earning power as a full-fledged physician. These days, you can get a pretty darn good house for 170K.

But in the grand scheme of things... if Physician X has worked for 25 years and Physician Y has worked for 26 years... will there really be much difference?

(I know, I take a very Socratic approach to finding answers)

It's simple. Are you interested in the second masters degree? Yes==> go to 'top 10' school. if no ==> go to 4 year program, aka 'top 50'.

 

[Jolie South]

For me, it comes down to: do you want to spend an extra $40-50K for a degree that you're not interested in?

 

[RoadRunner17]

For me, it comes down to: do you want to spend an extra $40-50K for a degree that you're not interested in?

No, I think it's more of:

Do you want to spend an extra $40-50K to NOT get a degree that you're not interested in?

 

[Jolie South]

No, I think it's more of:

Do you want to spend an extra $40-50K to NOT get a degree that you're not interested in?

oh yea, just quickly scanned the first part of the post. 😳

well, for me, spending a year getting a degree that i don't want seems like a waste of time, regardless of the reputation of the school.

 

[AdmiralChz]

Unless you can opt out of the program, I'd say go to school 2. You're right - rankings are pretty arbitrary. I opted for a "lower ranking" myself - I'm pretty sure I'll be happier though.

 

[Wylde]

You will probably get a better residency location coming from the Top10, but is that worth an additional year of your life?

My (limited) understanding is that where you do your residency is that important if you going into private practice. If you want to go into academia, go to the top 10.

I would probably attend the top 10 myself, but I am easily influenced by prestige! 🙁

PS: I know this post sounds very ambivalent/confusing. If you think the more competitive residency or enjoyment at school 1 is worth an additional year, then attend school 1; if not, attend school 2.

 

[Morozovo]

OldSpice - I sent you a PM. I'm also considering this program but have reservations as well. Would love to hash them out with you.

 

[pianola]

OP, I'm certainly sensitive to your time concerns.

Part of the decision for me would be "how old am I?" and "do I have a family?" I'm guessing you're a guy based on the username, and that definitely helps, I would say -- if you are a single guy who is not particularly concerned about starting a family in the immediate future, I would probably say go for the extra year. An extra year is not that bad and isn't going to materially alter your chances of having a child in the future (if that is a consideration for you).

However, I'm a woman in a serious relationship and I would like to have children after finishing residency. I'm in your shoes in that I'm non-trad and I keep *considering* taking more and more years off (e.g. deferring a year and/or taking an optional research year). Essentially, doing both would mean that I will graduate at the same time as a 22 year old entering and MD-PhD program. That, for me, is a frustrating thought. Perhaps it's not that important, but it is still frustrating.

I'm not sure what I would do in your shoes because it would depend on the two schools in question and how you felt about each one. Other than the rankings, how do you feel about the cost? Location? Atmosphere? Etc.

 

[drizzt3117]

If you can get any one year masters (MBA isn't one year, but maybe you could condense it as such with summers, etc) it could certainly be of value to you, in addition to the boost you'd get from going to a top 5 school. I would do the combined program, personally.

 

[scarletgirl777]

UCSF 👍 do it

Really? I was thinking UCLA.

Missed the part about the poster already having a master's...guess that changes things a bit in terms of understanding not wanting the extra year. But the UCLA PRIME program allows for a lot of different master's degrees (if that is in fact what we're talking about, probably not 😀)