Accepted to expensive MD vs much cheaper DO school

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FutureRomanianDoc

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Hey everyone,

I have received an acceptance to an out-of-state school (East Tennessee State) and also to
an in-state osteopathic medical school (Campbell). I felt like I could thrive in either schools, but the
biggest problem is that ETSU has an out of state tuition around 60k, whereas Campbell offered me a
scholarship, putting my tuition around 30k.

I'd love advice about which to attend. At this point in time, I'm not fixed on any particular specialties,
but I'm interested in internal medicine, GI, cardiology or neurology. I many DO schools have an inclination towards primary care, but at this point in time, I can't really say whether I would want to go in that direction or not.

Money is definitely an issue, but suggestions and different perspectives would be appreciated!
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I'd personally choose the MD school. I wanted to do primary care as a premed, but after my rotations I only considered applying to anesthesia, radiology, and pathology, which, luckily for me, we're all obtainable with a DO degree. People's plans change. It would be unfortunate if you discover a passion for, say, urology, or some other competitive speciality, andyour degree was the only thing holding you back. I think the extra money is worth not having to deal with that potential situation. There is more to life than money. I'd rather be practicing in my specialty of choice for 40 years than dying with an extra $100k.

With that said IM, cardiology, and neurology are reasonable goals for osteopathic students. GI is also possible, but about 1/3 of DOs applying for ACGME GI fellowships match.

Disclaimer: I don't have any loans, so I'm not sure how burdensome they are.
 
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From a financial standpoint, I am sure you can do the math. Loans rack up interest very quickly (assuming you are getting a loan) and much of your early payments will be towards the interest. Factor in cost of living expenses, etc, and it is going to be expensive either way but, a $120,000 difference is quite a bit. You will make doctor money with a D.O. just as you would with an M.D. You obviously understand the fact that D.O.'s tend to have tougher matches into certain specialties, but know it is not impossible. Unless you feel you couldn't live without an M.D. degree, take the cheaper tuition option and run with it.
 
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MD and run. Will you match IM as a DO? Obviously. Will you look better to PDs are more competitive IM residencies given identical applications except for the MD over DO, sadly yes because this is America and America is competitive and shallow.
 
MD. Hands down.

Campbell is a newer DO school. If it were one of the original 5 or a DO school with a state affiliation I would situationally play the devil's advocate to the majority, but it's not.

There are ways to pay off debt; don't worry about that in this situation (IMO).
 
It might be worth the extra cost if you're thinking of a GI or cards fellowship. I mean I think ETSU is pretty mission-driven so maybe the majority of your peers would pursue primary-care but I think the MD might open a few doors for fellowships.

Aside from that, I think most of your interests are reasonable from the DO side. Both will lead you to become a great physician--but Campbell is still a newer school with mandatory attendance and that might be an issue for some.
 
I read your post because as a (near) Campbell grad, it caught my attention. That's my disclaimer!
With that said, it sounds like your question is which place is right for you? Obviously, this isn't a popularity contest or an MD diploma
would be a sdn favorite. Money isn't everything to consider but keep in mind, just as some posters are arguing a DO vs MD may create barriers we also live
in the real world where money and debt also creates barriers. The question isn't which one doesn't come without a downside but what downside would
you rather live with. Keep in mind, statistics show specialty choices and career dreams change. So do life circumstances. 5 years from now you may be in a very different life decision and debt can limit other non-job related issues related to your life. Keep that big picture in mind. With that said, I say go where you feel most comfortable with the people around you

EDIT: Youll be able to go internal medicine without a problem. I wouldn't consider that to be a very important determinant
 
To add to the above. Let's say you decide you want to go from IM to ENT or Urology. I am sure you can guess which degree will make it easier to find leaders in that field, rotate, apply and actually get into strong research fellowships, have a affiliated teaching university to mentor from those in that dept with their fellows/residents.

Take the debt. If you're wise with your money (which I can assume is easier to do when you get into the specialty you actually want) you can pay off your loans and there are a multitude of ways to utilize federal programs like PAYE to help with that.


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AlteredScale said:
To add to the above. Let's say you decide you want to go from IM to ENT or Urology. I am sure you can guess which degree will make it easier to find leaders in that field, rotate, apply and actually get into strong research fellowships, have a affiliated teaching university to mentor from those in that dept with their fellows/residents.

Take the debt. If you're wise with your money (which I can assume is easier to do when you get into the specialty you actually want) you can pay off your loans and there are a multitude of ways to utilize federal programs like PAYE to help with that.


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I don't disagree with the first part of this in regards to the benefit of having those departments and faculty at an affiliated academic medical centers. We are talking about a state school in ETSU though who also is largely focused on rural and primary care medicine and doesn't have that kind of research and specialization structure in place. I have a close friend who got her MD from here and she has told me that before as well.
ENT and Uro candidates are unquestionable top caliber students whether MD or DO and no one waltzes into a residency regardless. If someone is confident they want to go into one of these or even ophtho I'd definitely be shooting for an acceptance from a school that has these programs in house.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
FTFY.

MD for a multitude of reasons. Even if it were another DO school I would go there just to avoid the mandatory lectures.
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Okay, so in ALL it is tougher to get into, not impossible, and definitely doable. If the tuition cost were the same, I would suggest M.D. as well just to make life easier. But again, $120,000 worth of extra debt (with interest), is a reality that OP has to think about. Carrying that extra debt for pride or because you may not get a certain residency spot is absurd. Sure, if OP knew from day 1 they wanted to be a thoracic surgeon and a thoracic surgeon only, then go for the M.D. (That is even hard to get into for them). Yes there is an off chance that OP may get into medical school and want to go into a field that is not very D.O. friendly. OP may also get into medical school and realize that they want to go into a field that is D.O. friendly or is possible for them to get into (Don't know of any impossible residency spots for D.O.s at the moment). For everyone who says "money isn't everything" it may not be, but doctors sure as hell don't do it for free.
 
Mosonik said:
I don't disagree with the first part of this in regards to the benefit of having those departments and faculty at an affiliated academic medical centers. We are talking about a state school in ETSU though who also is largely focused on rural and primary care medicine and doesn't have that kind of research and specialization structure in place. I have a close friend who got her MD from here and she has told me that before as well.
ENT and Uro candidates are unquestionable top caliber students whether MD or DO and no one waltzes into a residency regardless. If someone is confident they want to go into one of these or even ophtho I'd definitely be shooting for an acceptance from a school that has these programs in house.
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I understand your point there however coming from an MD school, whether it is focused on primary care or not, still has an upper hand from any DO school.

For example ETSU had IM matches to Beth Israel Deaconess/Harvard, Barnes Jewish/WashU. None of these never taken a DO even from a "top tier DO program" and the odd thing there is that these are programs that are looking for stellar applicants that are at the same caliber as many surgical applicants in which a huge part of that is strong research. These MD students had the opportunity to pursue Howard Hughes research awards and other prestigious research awards (something that DO students cannot get). Additionally, ETSU has 26 NIH funded projects the majority of which are R01. This is far beyond the funding found at most DO schools and even those that are backed by a full university (source: https://projectreporter.nih.gov/reporter_SearchResults.cfm?icde=32761079). The thing is that DO students are left to fend for themselves with research and I am stating this off the experiences I have had and others have had coming to a "strong" DO schools like KCU.

At the end of the day, you can have a DO student and an MD student with the same stellar application academic, research, letters wise and the MD applicant will unequivocally receive more interviews to ACGME programs than the DO students. That is how is the current situation is. There is absolutely no downside to pursuing ETSU over a DO school because you are not closing doors form the get go.
 
dwgrubbs1s said:
Sure, if OP knew from day 1 they wanted to be a thoracic surgeon and a thoracic surgeon only, then go for the M.D. (That is even hard to get into for them). Yes there is an off chance that OP may get into medical school and want to go into a field that is not very D.O. friendly. OP may also get into medical school and realize that they want to go into a field that is D.O. friendly or is possible for them to get into (Don't know of any impossible residency spots for D.O.s at the moment).
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I don't understand this sentiment. If he goes DO and starts killing classes and boards and says "man, I really want to do neurological surgery" then tough luck, because a 260 doesn't get you there. Research in the field (many MD students eyeing for nsx start doing research year 1 with clinician scientist, something that is almost non existent amongst DO's), letters from physicians who carry weight in the field (so for the DO student, that neurosurgery preceptor from the small community hospital won't mean much against the letter from the MD PhD mentor whom the MD student rotated and did research with), and simply bias (currently, the american board of neurosurgery is still one of the few boards that do not accept AOA neurosurgery grads as eligible for fellowship) are up against a student who in many ways is "behind" among their MD colleagues with the same academic accolades.

Here are some programs that have never accepted a DO for IM: UCSF, UCSD, UCLA-RR, Stanford, UTSW, Vandy, Tufts, BMC, BJW, BWH, MGH, BIDMC, Yale, Duke, UNC, Tulane, UUtah, UColorado, HUP/UPenn, Johns Hopkins, UMichigan, Columbia, Cornell, NYU-Langone, NorthwesternU, Emory, UAB, UPMC, UVA, Thomas Jefferson, Albert Einstein/Montefiore, Icahn SOM Hospital, UMiami. That my friend is not "oh well it's tougher but not impossible as a DO". You look at any IM match for a DO school and you'll come to realize there are almost never any strong university IM programs (I expect a rebuttal of "well it's because DO students self select for community programs and don't care").

Now I know the refutation will be "well it's difficult for MD's to get into there too!" but I counter with the fact that at many of these programs, you have MD's coming from MD schools that are mid and low tier MD schools. If these lower tier MD schools are considered to be on par with many stronger DO schools and have students of a caliber that would make them academically equal to the top performers at the MD school, then why aren't there any DO grads in these programs? To this day, it is still definitely apparent that program directors perceive perceive their program to be weaker with DOs in it and/or they have not been impressed with the DO students who have rotated through for their SubI's which I have heard happened many times at my school with regards to the feedback that is given by KU Med and UMKC.
 
AlteredScale said:
I don't understand this sentiment. If he goes DO and starts killing classes and boards and says "man, I really want to do neurological surgery" then tough luck, because a 260 doesn't get you there. Research in the field (many MD students eyeing for nsx start doing research year 1 with clinician scientist, something that is almost non existent amongst DO's), letters from physicians who carry weight in the field (so for the DO student, that neurosurgery preceptor from the small community hospital won't mean much against the letter from the MD PhD mentor whom the MD student rotated and did research with), and simply bias (currently, the american board of neurosurgery is still one of the few boards that do not accept AOA neurosurgery grads as eligible for fellowship) are up against a student who in many ways is "behind" among their MD colleagues with the same academic accolades.

Here are some programs that have never accepted a DO for IM: UCSF, UCSD, UCLA-RR, Stanford, UTSW, Vandy, Tufts, BMC, BJW, BWH, MGH, BIDMC, Yale, Duke, UNC, Tulane, UUtah, UColorado, HUP/UPenn, Johns Hopkins, UMichigan, Columbia, Cornell, NYU-Langone, NorthwesternU, Emory, UAB, UPMC, UVA, Thomas Jefferson, Albert Einstein/Montefiore, Icahn SOM Hospital, UMiami. That my friend is not "oh well it's tougher but not impossible as a DO". You look at any IM match for a DO school and you'll come to realize there are almost never any strong university IM programs (I expect a rebuttal of "well it's because DO students self select for community programs and don't care").

Now I know the refutation will be "well it's difficult for MD's to get into there too!" but I counter with the fact that at many of these programs, you have MD's coming from MD schools that are mid and low tier MD schools. If these lower tier MD schools are considered to be on par with many stronger DO schools and have students of a caliber that would make them academically equal to the top performers at the MD school, then why aren't there any DO grads in these programs? To this day, it is still definitely apparent that program directors perceive perceive their program to be weaker with DOs in it and/or they have not been impressed with the DO students who have rotated through for their SubI's which I have heard happened many times at my school with regards to the feedback that is given by KU Med and UMKC.
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So this sounds like the D.O. schools in America need to step it up drastically. The landscape is changing and will continue to change. I am not an expert on the merger, but from everything that is out there, it appears it will put MD/DO on the same playing field (in some perspective). Yes, there will still be programs that look down on the D.O. applicant compared to M.D., but at some point in the future, the lines will become more blurred. Baby boomers are getting older, the population is growing, and there is not enough hands on deck (or it is projected). Sure, the really nice residency/fellowships will go to the gifted of the gifted, but the field as a whole will become watered down as the healthcare demands increase and schools start popping up left and right. Programs will essentially become less picky, or more programs will emerge Not that I think that this a great thing. Many states are already handing the car keys to many NP's. The are doing this for several reasons. One of which, is because many doctors have up and left primary care for more specialized areas (medicine has also seen a rapid increase in specialties and I assume the trend will continue). Another in which involves the rapid growth of the population (and not enough doctors. Also probably some political issues/lobbying that has led to their increased autonomy but that is a whole other discussion). I may be completely off base in my thinking of how the future for doctors will be, but it seems the days of prestige are starting to go out of the window. Again, if there wasn't a large tuitional difference, I would be advising O.P. to go M.D. all day. It is clear that many M.D. schools have better clinical rotations, research, etc. compared to the average D.O. school. But the way the future is looking, unless you are incredibly special and only want the best of the best, a doctor will be a doctor.
 
Mosonik said:
I don't disagree with the first part of this in regards to the benefit of having those departments and faculty at an affiliated academic medical centers. We are talking about a state school in ETSU though who also is largely focused on rural and primary care medicine and doesn't have that kind of research and specialization structure in place. I have a close friend who got her MD from here and she has told me that before as well.
ENT and Uro candidates are unquestionable top caliber students whether MD or DO and no one waltzes into a residency regardless. If someone is confident they want to go into one of these or even ophtho I'd definitely be shooting for an acceptance from a school that has these programs in house.
Click to expand...

dwgrubbs1s said:
Okay, so in ALL it is tougher to get into, not impossible, and definitely doable. If the tuition cost were the same, I would suggest M.D. as well just to make life easier. But again, $120,000 worth of extra debt (with interest), is a reality that OP has to think about. Carrying that extra debt for pride or because you may not get a certain residency spot is absurd. Sure, if OP knew from day 1 they wanted to be a thoracic surgeon and a thoracic surgeon only, then go for the M.D. (That is even hard to get into for them). Yes there is an off chance that OP may get into medical school and want to go into a field that is not very D.O. friendly. OP may also get into medical school and realize that they want to go into a field that is D.O. friendly or is possible for them to get into (Don't know of any impossible residency spots for D.O.s at the moment). For everyone who says "money isn't everything" it may not be, but doctors sure as hell don't do it for free.
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AlteredScale said:
Here are some programs that have never accepted a DO for IM: UCSF, UCSD, UCLA-RR, Stanford, UTSW, Vandy, Tufts, BMC, BJW, BWH, MGH, BIDMC, Yale, Duke, UNC, Tulane, UUtah, UColorado, HUP/UPenn, Johns Hopkins, UMichigan, Columbia, Cornell, NYU-Langone, NorthwesternU, Emory, UAB, UPMC, UVA, Thomas Jefferson, Albert Einstein/Montefiore, Icahn SOM Hospital, UMiami. That my friend is not "oh well it's tougher but not impossible as a DO". You look at any IM match for a DO school and you'll come to realize there are almost never any strong university IM programs (I expect a rebuttal of "well it's because DO students self select for community programs and don't care").
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This right here. This is IM, a "DO friendly field". Having the MD opens doors in every single specialty! Why do people have such a hard time understanding this? Say OP wants to go GI after his IM residency, well only 1/3 of DOs matched that fellowship. An average MD, is still well placed to get into a solid university IM program that will set him up to specialize in whatever he wants. An average DO does not have that opportunity. And I won't even get into the competitive specialties.

dwgrubbs1s said:
it appears it will put MD/DO
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Nope. Why would it?

I do expect more lines to be blurred, but way after OP (and the rest of us) graduate and are attendings saving for retirement.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
This right here. This is IM, a "DO friendly field". Having the MD opens doors in every single specialty! Why do people have such a hard time understanding this? Say OP wants to go GI after his IM residency, well only 1/3 of DOs matched that fellowship. An average MD, is still well placed to get into a solid university IM program that will set him up to specialize in whatever he wants. An average DO does not have that opportunity. And I won't even get into the competitive specialties.



Nope. Why would it?

I do expect more lines to be blurred, but way after OP (and the rest of us) graduate and are attendings saving for retirement.
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There is also a long list of IM residencies that have accepted D.O.'s and do so often. And why would it? Look at the rapid rise of NP's to stardom (not saying D.O.s and NPs are the same). It will happen quicker than most think. I do agree that in 4-5 years, it will still be somewhat distinct at some of the elite places, but most everywhere else will become a little more color blind (Hence the new AACOMAS calculation system). Either way, I think we will all make some money in the end. Anything is better than what I make right now :laugh:
 
El Pollo Loco all the way 🙂
 
RamsFan&FutureDO said:
Every time I go home to California I need two things: in n out and the crazy chicken!
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Lucky for you, theres actually an amazing place that is like El Pollo Loco here in KC (we can all field trip our way there). It's a bit more authentic but they seriously are like that amazing place called Pollo Loco. So good.
 
MD. If you're undecided, you'll probably change your mind a hundred times before you decide what you want to pursue. Don't shoot yourself in the foot. If you're frugal after residency that 120k wont mean much come retirement time. And if you end up falling in love with NS and match, you'll probably recoup the difference in cost in the first year as an attending (opposed to something like IM). Not saying you can't match NS as a DO, but you're essentially trying to pizza when you need to french fry. You're gonna have a bad time.
 
FutureRomanianDoc said:
Hey everyone,

I have received an acceptance to an out-of-state school (East Tennessee State) and also to
an in-state osteopathic medical school (Campbell). I felt like I could thrive in either schools, but the
biggest problem is that ETSU has an out of state tuition around 60k, whereas Campbell offered me a
scholarship, putting my tuition around 30k.

I'd love advice about which to attend. At this point in time, I'm not fixed on any particular specialties,
but I'm interested in internal medicine, GI, cardiology or neurology. I many DO schools have an inclination towards primary care, but at this point in time, I can't really say whether I would want to go in that direction or not.

Money is definitely an issue, but suggestions and different perspectives would be appreciated!
Click to expand...


When did you interview / when did they offer the scholarship?
 
Fission Chips said:
MD. If you're undecided, you'll probably change your mind a hundred times before you decide what you want to pursue. Don't shoot yourself in the foot. If you're frugal after residency that 120k wont mean much come retirement time. And if you end up falling in love with NS and match, you'll probably recoup the difference in cost in the first year as an attending (opposed to something like IM). Not saying you can't match NS as a DO, but you're essentially trying to pizza when you need to french fry. You're gonna have a bad time.
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Definitely trying to pizza with DO. Go with MD and save yourself time debating.


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Fission Chips said:
MD. If you're undecided, you'll probably change your mind a hundred times before you decide what you want to pursue. Don't shoot yourself in the foot. If you're frugal after residency that 120k wont mean much come retirement time. And if you end up falling in love with NS and match, you'll probably recoup the difference in cost in the first year as an attending (opposed to something like IM). Not saying you can't match NS as a DO, but you're essentially trying to pizza when you need to french fry. You're gonna have a bad time.
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Beautiful use of the South Park haha


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AnatomyGrey12 said:
FTFY.

MD for a multitude of reasons. Even if it were another DO school I would go there just to avoid the mandatory lectures.
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elnb.gif


https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...rtain-residency-limits.1238759/#post-18528948


opie there isn't any data to back up any of these opinions on here.
 
MD. It's not even a question. Anyone who says different is trying to self-validate/has a chip on their shoulder/has a boner for OMM.
 
JB50 said:
elnb.gif


https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...rtain-residency-limits.1238759/#post-18528948


opie there isn't any data to back up any of these opinions on here.
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Just because you choose you blind yourself to the data doesn't mean to doesn't exist. When you decide that your opinion matters a lot more than the data, or the actual experiences of medical students, residents and attendings it probably means you are wrong. You can gif me all you want but you are wrong, it is that simple.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Just because you choose you blind yourself to the data doesn't mean to doesn't exist (wut). When you decide that your opinion matters a lot more than the data, or the actual experiences of medical students, residents and attendings it probably means you are wrong. You can gif me all you want but you are wrong, it is that simple.
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We've been down this road before mane. It was a long one that ended in "there's no definitive data." I'd imagine within the last week a glory-hole of data on DO match hasn't magically appeared.


See ya as an attending boss:vomit:
 
JB50 said:
We've been down this road before mane. It was a long one that ended in "there's no definitive data." I'd imagine within the last week a glory-hole of data on DO match hasn't magically appeared.


See ya as an attending boss:vomit:
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Dude you seriously need to stop. The MD gives you better matching potential and that is inarguable. I know you are choosing DO (nothing wrong with your decisions) but stop trying to validate your decisions by spouting nonsense and get other people to make the same decision. There is a bias and it most definitely exists. Everyone should really think long and hard before choosing to go DO if they have an MD acceptance.

Go look at the recent ophthalmology match info and tell me that there isn't bias. DOs had a freaking 22% match rate.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Dude you seriously need to stop. The MD gives you better matching potential and that is inarguable. I know you are choosing DO (nothing wrong with your decisions) but stop trying to validate your decisions by spouting nonsense and get other people to make the same decision. There is a bias and it most definitely exists. Everyone should really think long and hard before choosing to go DO if they have an MD acceptance.

Go look at the recent ophthalmology match info and tell me that there isn't bias. DOs had a freaking 22% match rate.
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Don't know why you need to throw insults around there big guy. I don't need to validate anything considering I've made my own decisions against your advice and others in the past. I don't need validation from the same people I threw away advice from. Just a thought.

I'm not denying that bias doesn't exist. I simply stated that there is not data to show that the size of your boner for DO bias is as large as you make it out to be on a regular basis. There are so many barriers and variables to consider before simply waving your MD shlong around whenever you get the chance. For most people, the difference in the degrees WILL NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

(1) COMLEX vs USMLE. Can't compare outcomes due to two tests as well as the merger.
(2) match lists are ripe for subjective analysis and insertions of opinion.









There should be more for opie to consider than just the allopathic vs osteopathic eduction. I think the MD school in this case is probably a better choice because I don't think Campbell has a reputation that would stand up to even a low-tier MD. Debt is real though and theres a high likelihood opie will end up in the same specialty regardless.
























opie make your own informed decisions please don't just read sdn.
 
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JB50 said:
Don't know why you need to throw insults around there big guy. I don't need to validate anything considering I've made my own decisions against your advice and others in the past. I don't need validation from the same people I threw away advice from. Just a thought.

I'm not denying that bias doesn't exist. I simply stated that there is not data to show that the size of your boner for DO bias is as large as you make it out to be on a regular basis.
Click to expand...

No one is throwing around insults. I simply stated that there is data that show the bias is much larger than you dismiss it to be. Large enough that every applicant holding an acceptance to both should think AT LEAST twice before turning down the MD acceptance.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
No one is throwing around insults. I simply stated that there is data that show the bias is much larger than you dismiss it to be. Large enough that every applicant holding an acceptance to both should think AT LEAST twice before turning down the MD acceptance.
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Right, but flat out rejecting DO out of hand is just as stupid, no? Especially when opie could save 30 grand a year.
 
JB50 said:
Right, but flat out rejecting DO out of hand is just as stupid, no? Especially when opie could save 30 grand a year.
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By not attending the MD I had an II at (my undergrad MD) I will be saving 23k a year. Does going to KCU limit me more than going md would? Yes no doubt, but I would not have enjoyed staying at my undergrad school/state for 4 more years so I chose not to even consider it. You're right discarding DO for MD automatically without considering circumstances is a little presumptuous.
 
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