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Accepted with a 22??? UNE

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by akalin24, Apr 17, 2004.

  1. akalin24

    akalin24 Member
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    The other day I met a 3rd year med student from UNE and he said he had several students in his class including himself who scored in the low 20's? I thought 24 was the cut-off?

    Any thoughts
     
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  3. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    There have been a couple students at UNECOM that have claimed they got in with MCAT scores ranging from 19-22. I'm too lazy to find the threads.
     
  4. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    There's people everywhere that got in with scores like that.
     
  5. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    That would be a false conclusion.
     
  6. HawkeyeDO

    HawkeyeDO Junior Member

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    I'm sure it depends. My MCAT's suggested that I was cut out for a career in plunger marketing. However, a 3.8 GPA at a competative undergraduate institution in a major other than basketweaving "proved" that I was qualified to handle the workload.
     
  7. Doctor Peloncito

    Doctor Peloncito Family Physician
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    If you wake up on the wrong side of the bed the morning of the MCAT you may end up with a terrible score. Apply and if you can retake it in August, then do. Also, you will usually find a few students with horrible MCAT scores at most schools.
     
  8. OnMyWayThere

    OnMyWayThere OMS-III
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    AFter just finishing the MCAT about 3 hours ago, this thread gives me hope. That thing was haaard.
     
  9. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    I disagree - I know of students at UNECOM, NSUCOM, and LECOM who got in with sub-20 scores. I think it's a fair conclusion that other schools probably have the same - I don't see why these schools would be exceptions.
     
  10. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
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    There's notable variation in average MCAT scores among the DO schools. Some are tougher on MCAT scores than others.
     
  11. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    I don't want this thread to spiral into a MCAT score war. I simply answered the OP's question. Some UNECOM students have posted their stats in previous threads, and a couple had MCAT scores in the 19-22 range. I did not attach any negative comments to my statement.

    Your statement that all schools have students with MCATS in the 19-22 range is false. Some schools have minimum requirements and actually stick to them. The only exceptions would be if an applicant has strong political/family ties to the school. I can only speak for my school, OSU-COM. We do not accept people with MCAT's below 24 or 25.
     
  12. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    Actually you're wrong - OSUCOM's requirement is an average score of 7 on each section...ie a 21.

    http://www.osu-med.com/center/student/entrance.htm
     
  13. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    I thought the requirement was bumped up to 8 on each section starting last year. DrMom would know if this is true or not.
     
  14. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
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    That is the minimum requirement in order to submit an application...and someone getting in with that kind of score is quite the rarity (I'm told that it can happen in rare situations, but the rest of the application has to make up for it). The average for matriculants is currently something like a 27-28.
     
  15. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
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    It wasn't bumped up, but they were telling people at the prospective applicant meetings to shoot for around a 30 to be a competitive applicant.
     
  16. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    I stand corrected. Hopefully more people from UNECOM will contribute, so the OP can be assured that there is still a chance with a score in the low 20's.
     
  17. Homunculus

    Homunculus SDN Caveman Administrator
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    :wow: :scared:
     
  18. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    Of course it's the requirement in order to apply, and of course it's a rarity for someone with a score like that to be accepted. My only point was that it happens - I would venture to say everywhere, but that's just me.
     
  19. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
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    Fair enough.

    I'd be completely shocked if there are multiple people in my class with an MCAT in the low 20s. I don't know of any, but it isn't like I polled the class.
     
  20. drlexygoat

    drlexygoat Eat, Drink, and Be Merry
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    Wow. Reading that REALLY scares me. I'm well aware that not every applicant has stellar MCAT scores, but SUB-20???? Sure, they may have a great GPA and good clinicals, but the MCAT does stand for something, folks.

    Excelling on this test means that you have the capacity for quick thinking, reasoning skills, and analysis. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that a doc who scored below 20 is going to be quick on his/her feet in the ER when a patient codes on the table.
     
  21. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    I told myself I wouldn't hijack this thread and post on it again, but I agree with Homunculus and drlexygoat. There has to be a minimum level of competency for medical school. I'm not sure where the line should be drawn, but there has to be a line. Just like you need to be 16 to get a driver's license. That's not to say all kids under 16 can't be responsible drivers- but there has to be a cutoff.

    It's necessary to look at other parts of one's application, but the MCAT score should be an integral part. Not everyone is cut out to be a physician. Just like not everyone is cut out to be a navy seal, lawyer, pilot, etc. Minimum requirements have to be met to ensure some degree of competency.
     
  22. smgilles

    smgilles Senior Member
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    I agree w/you 100%, but "unfortunately schools" (DO specifically) have to fill seats. I know a lot of people are going to say that the MCAT doesn't make a good doctor and I also agree with that. Just remember these people have to pass Steps I-III. I would love to see a study done on the correlation b/t MCAT score and board scores.
     
  23. Eyecon82

    Eyecon82 Senior Member
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    I'm not a fan of the MCAT being a predictor of your success in medicine....but I honestly think that there should be a cut off of at least 24....by studying a hour a day for 4 months before the mcat is more than adequate preperation to score above a 24...
     
  24. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    As smgilles suggested, the MCAT is just one aspect of the preliminary screening of people trying to become doctors. Once they get into medical school they have to pass preclinicals, clinicals, step I, step II, step III etc. I don't have any personal interest in this - I scored well over a 20 - but I don't think that the MCATs are that crucial of a step in requirements to become a doctor.
     
  25. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    I think you are being unreasonable by suggesting that the MCAT is not important in selection. If not MCAT, then offer something else to compare applicants.

    It is the most objective tool available to compare applicants. Just like Step 1 is used to screen for residency interviews. It may not be fair or right, but it's the best we've got. If you don't agree with it, then come up with something better.

    Schools don't have the time or resources to do a "full" evaluation of every applicant. When you have several thousand applicants and a few months to pick a class, you have to use numbers to weed people out.

    I think you might be trying to live in an ideal world where applicants can be thoroughly evaluated and accepted based on everything they've done their whole life. Unfortunately, the real world cannot operate that way.
     
  26. Eyecon82

    Eyecon82 Senior Member
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    I agree with you 100%........if this were an ideal world...then we could eliminate the MCAT....but we can't...we need something to STANDARDIZE all the students.....a 3.8 gpa at UCLA is obviously stronger than a 4.0 gpa at a mid-tier state school..but we need something to standardize the applicants to compare them on one level
     
  27. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    My point was simply that I don't think selection for admission to medical school is important in the quest to becoming a physician - it's basically just giving someone the chance. When people talk about undergrad GPA and MCAT, and if people with certain numbers are qualified to become physicians, I have to laugh. Let's say someone completely unqualified was admitted to medical school - they would fail at one of the other points used to weed people out. If someone is admitted with a 20 MCAT and 2.5 GPA, and succeeds in medical school and residency, then I believe they are perfectly qualified to be a doctor. Undergrad GPA and MCAT are selection factors for medical school, not becoming a doctor. In the end, I believe who is accepted doesn't mean anything. You have to succeed once there, and that is the level playing field.
     
  28. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    Schools don't want to take a chance admitting someone who they think will get weeded out later via testing, USMLE, etc. Once that student is weeded out, the school loses all that tuition/fee money and it cannot be recouped. Therefore, schools use the MCAT as ONE of the tools designed to predict which students will successfully complete medical school (via exams, USMLE, etc.) Of course, some are going to slip through the cracks and not be able to cut it. But this is rare. Also, there are going to be well-qualified applicants that could have successfully completed medical school that will be weeded out in the application process. This is not fair, but it's the best system we got.

    It seems that your underlying argument is that the MCAT is not an accurate predictor of whether or not a student can succesfully complete medical school. You may be correct. I don't know of any studies that support or reject that idea. But medical schools obviously feel that MCAT score, along with a host of other factors (GPA, LORs, etc.) are an accurate indicator of medical school success. Or at least they are the best predictors we got.

    If someone has studies that support/reject the MCAT vs. medical school success theory, they should post them.
     
  29. PACtoDOC

    PACtoDOC 1K Member
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    The MCAT is a worthless pile of dead trees!! It tests only one's ability to remember basic science facts that you rarely ever use in medical school anyway. It is aimed at testing 20-21 year old kids who just took the pre-req courses necessary to do well on the exam. It makes no sense to require it for certain people who have already proven their ability to do well in grad school and who have had other careers since college. In July of 2001, I was a PA who had never even taken physics or organic and I applied and took the August MCAT because I had decided I wanted to go to medical school that year, and not wait to take the MCAT until I had completed the physics and organic courses. So I studied hard for the gen chem and bio sections that I already knew and understood, and I swear I put "C" on every organic or physics problem on the entire exam!! I made a 23, with 8 verbal, 9 BS, and 6 PS!! Now tell me what that says to the admissions committee? Not a damn thing!!! They had to look past that score to see a 3.9 GPA through undergrad and a Masters PA program, top grad, top board scores, and more medical experience than virtually anyone applying. It still only got me 2 interviews out of the 7 schools I applied to and eventually I had the choice between the MD and the DO school, choosing the DO school because they had treated me so kindly and immediately looked past that score. Now I am in the top 3 people of my class of 124, and on the GSBS practice USMLE I was in the 99th percentile. If I had waited another year until I had actually completed organic and physics (ended up making an A in all 4), I could have probably gone to any school in the country. Undoubtedly I believe I would have been in the mid to high 30's on the MCAT. But who the hec cares, and why can't an admissions committee see past a stupid exam when everything else is so good? Its all good though, because as I see all the high MCATs in my class, they will be looking up at my board score wondering how some ******* 23 MCATer could have done so well!!! Bottom line, it is a stupid exam, and you don't need 1% of your gen chem/organic chem/physics to do well in medical school. I would go as far as to say that I would be doing just as well right now without taking those stupid courses. What they should require for pre-reqs at all schools should be bio 1/2, biochem, genetics, patho, pharm, histo, A&P, and about 1000 hours of medical experience ranging from volunteering to working. My class is full of people who are superb MCAT takers but couldn't interview a patient without soiling their pants. It took some of them over a year to quit panicking and to be able to comfortably talk to a patient without locking up! The whole medical school admission process should be revamped to get away from the good-old-boy way of accepting students. And they should give an entry exam still but one that actually reflects things you would want to know to help you in your first year of medical school. A test full of anatomy, physio, histo, basic pharm, behavioral, and genetics would push people to worry more about those courses in undergrad to do well on the exam, and it would make 1st year so much easier.
     
  30. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    Good post PACtoDOC - however, it wouldn't really be possible to test undergrads on histo, pharm etc as opposed to bio/chem/org/phys. Most colleges don't offer those medicine-based science classes.
     
  31. PACtoDOC

    PACtoDOC 1K Member
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    Maybe you are right on the pharm course, but any respectable college with science programs offer histo, biochem, A&P, genetics, etc..
     
  32. Amy B

    Amy B I miss my son so much
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    Great points PACtoDOC!!!!

    I personally know quite a few med students that got in with 20-24 MCATs and they are great med students. In the top 10% of their classes. A low MCAT doesn't mean you aren't qualified to be a doctor. I am glad that DO schools do over look lower MCATs if the rest of an applicant's application is great.

    After you are a med student, you won't give your MCAT a second thought. At least that is what I hear from the countless number of med students I am friends with all over the county in both MD and DO schools. getting the med school to overlook your MCAT is priority, after you get in, don't ever think about it again. THe COMLEX and USMLE are the only test to worry about then.

    For those with lower MCATs, there is hope. You just have to make sure the rest of your application is great. Good luck.
     
  33. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    Good discussion with good points. Only thing I disagree with PACtoDOC on is requiring a human anatomy class in undergrad. It takes tremendous resources to invest in a ventilated lab, cadavers, and qualified professors to make the class worthwhile. Many middle-small universities/colleges could not afford to do this.
     
  34. BACMEDIC

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    But if the MCAT is so important, why is there only a .26 correlation between MCAT score and board scores? Given your arguments, one would think that the correlation would be much higher.

    I agree that there has to be a minimum, but there also has to be SOMETHING that really does correlate to how one will do on the boards.
     
  35. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    Could you post the study for this?

    As I stated earlier, I'm not sure whether MCAT scores are good predictors of medical school success. I'm just ASSUMING there is some correlation or else medical schools wouldn't use them as part of the selection process. I have no evidence to support it.

    Also, remember that MCAT scores are only part of a host of factors that are evaluated in the application process.
     
  36. DrSmiles

    DrSmiles Senior Member
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    I have always been told that how you perform in medical school is the strongest indicator for board performance- which makes perfect sense. I agree with PACTO DOC, the MCAT is a pile of crap and only one more loophole to jump through. I know so many people that did crappy on the MCAT and graduated at the top of their class in medical school. I agree you need a way to weed out individuals that will not perform up to par in medical school, and maybe this can be shown by taking a difficult upper level science class like biochem or genetics. Any self-respecting undergrad school will have these types of classes. I just don't think there is any significant relevance to the MCAT and how it compares to medical school.
    I even have to wonder if the system is outdated. Years ago physicians were trained to be scientists first and physicians second. We know this isn't the case anymore because we see many students with backgrounds such as liberal arts and history majors that do very well if not better than students with the traditional science background. I don't remember the last time I thought about general chem, organic chem or physics when coming up with a differential diagnosis for a patient on an exam question, or memorizing the long list of drugs we need to know (without needing to know the organic structures). Why? Because it simply isn't relevant. And neither is the MCAT.
     
  37. PACtoDOC

    PACtoDOC 1K Member
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    A&P is taught is high schools all over the country. Most undergrad schools (hec even community colleges for that matter) offer A&P and it has no cadaver component at all. Its just the best course for learning terminology and basic human stuff. It just makes no sense to require physics when A&P is such a huge issue the first year. I think there were like 2 physics formulas in cardiology and 2 in renal, but except for that, physics was a big waste of a year!! Let the physics geeks take this mess.
     
  38. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    I thought you were referring to a human cadaver anatomy class. A&P is definitely worthwhile to take before entering medical school.
     
  39. LP1CW

    LP1CW Senior Member
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    The MCAT does have predictive value, do a search you'll find tons of studies, and it also serves as a way of comparing students from different schools and backgrounds. That said, I hated the MCAT. However, they still need to find a way to compare thousands of applicants.

    I'm happy for PactoDoc, but this is one person. You can't infer much from the experiences of one or a few people. Generally, the lower the MCAT score, the lower your chances of success. But there are always exceptions and I hope that adcoms can discern the differences.
     
  40. NMH2001

    NMH2001 Ferret Momma
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    I'm not a fan of posting stats but if this will put your mind at ease then here you go. MCAT-22Q (8p,9B,5V). No outstanding app package either.
    Accepted to UNE, DMU,UHS, LECOM
    Declined interviews to NYCOM, KCOM

    Am now a first year in UNE and doing fine.

    During the app process everyone told me I didn't have a chance in hell. Good thing I didn't listen.
     
  41. RasputinDO

    RasputinDO Senior Member
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    I think the most amusing thing is that people refer to the MCAT scores in the 20-24 range as low. I hate to tell people but if you look at your little MCAT score card the mean score is 23-24. However, aside from that like people have pointed out on here before even if the average matriculant MCAT score is 28 that means for every 32 admitted there is theoretically someone with a 24 that gets admitted also. Now this obviously doesn't mean that half the students walking around there have 24's as most of the scores are probably in the 26-30 range BUT what that does say is that statistically speaking (which alot of people seem to like to do) the probability of the numbers says that at most school there are people that get in with 23 and 24 and maybe even a little lower. Just thought I'd add that.

    Joshua
     
  42. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    So who's the bonejob that gave me bad karma for posting insightful and positive ideas on this thread?

    Probably someone with a MCAT in the low 20's. :rolleyes:
     
  43. Doctor Peloncito

    Doctor Peloncito Family Physician
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    Interestingly enough, acording to my Kaplan MCAT instructor, studies show that the SAT is a better predictor of medical school success than the MCAT. This is heresay and I can't cite any sources other than him. But it is interesting, nonetheless.
     
  44. doc3341

    doc3341 Senior Member
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    A friend of mine got accepted this past January with a 3.44 and a 21 MCAT. ---It is possible!!! :D :D :D :D
     
  45. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    This makes absolute sense to me - the SAT, in my mind, is more of an IQ type test. It is based on aptitude, so it puts differences in motivation and time spent studying aside for the most part. The MCAT, on the other hand, tests on material that must be learned. Someone could be brilliant, but not have spent a lot of time studying as an undergrad or for the exam, and gotten a poor score as a result.
     
  46. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    To all you insecure asshats with low MCAT scores that can't deal with a legitimate discussion, take some reading comprehension classes and some antidepressants. It's called Paranoid Personality Disorder - you take legitimate arguments and spin them as personal attacks because you have no self-esteem. (FYI, this is a personal attack) No wonder you scored so low on the MCAT; your verbal reasoning was probably a 4. I'm embarrassed to have you as future colleagues. Hopefully you'll be weeded out by the boards.

    I guess that's what I get for talking with a bunch a premeds who don't their ass from their face.

    And if you're going to leave negative comments, at least have the balls to sign your name.
     
  47. PACtoDOC

    PACtoDOC 1K Member
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    Hey DireCub,

    I hope you are ready to put your money where your mouth is. I'll put in escrow today 500 big ones that says if you beat me on the boards that I will gladly turn it over to you. The only problem is that you will be required to put in escrow the same amount. Are you big enough to step up to that challenge big boy. My boards are in 2 months, and I am willing to put the money into a web based escrow fund tonight if you wish. Step back from your attitude long enough to accept my challenge, or kindly address specific people here without lumping everyone into one broad category. People like you with your Daddy-paid Kaplan MCAT review who happened to pull a good score out your a#s still look up the a&s end at people like me in class rank. And guess what, class rank has been shown to correlate with boards greater than any other predictor to date. Your argument holds no water, only hot air.
     
  48. happiness4me

    happiness4me Junior Member
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    i have a 22 and i was accepted to nycom, lecom, waitlisted at unecom...theres hope
     
  49. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
    Physician Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    You guys need to keep this a civil discussion, please.
     
  50. Amy B

    Amy B I miss my son so much
    Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    How dare you come on here and attack posters the way you have. That is not what SDN is all about. We are here to help people. You have absolutely NO right to pass judgement on anyone who may or may not have a lower than average MCAT. Thank God you aren't on any medical school admissions commitee. The MCAT is just a piece of the overall puzzle. It is ONLY a PIECE.

    I have been on SDN a long time, so most people know I don't usually get angry at posters or what they say, but you have been rude and totally out of line here.

    Get off your high horse and come down and join the rest of us mortals.
     
  51. DireWolf

    DireWolf The Pride of Cucamonga
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    Again, someone with a reading comprehension problem. Look back at my posts and actually READ them. I never attacked anyone for having low MCAT scores UNTIL I started receiving negative comments and being called names. Of course, none of these people left their username behind the comments, which is typical immature behavior. Therefore, my rants in posts #41 and #45 were vaguely directed towards those individuals. PACtoDOC wants me to "address specific people", but I have no names to list, since no one had the balls to leave a name.

    To all those angry namecallers, please review my earlier comments in this thread about the MCAT and stop reading things into them. I actually stated that "MCAT scores are only part of a host of factors that are evaluated in the application process." Obviously MOST of you missed that.

    I also said that there should be a cutoff for MCAT scores but I had no idea what that cutoff should be. Not one time did I offer a specific number. My whole point was to agree with earlier posters that there does infact need to be a cutoff and that MCAT scores should remain an integral part of the selection process, albeit just a part.

    I then said if anyone did not agree that the MCAT should be used in the admissions process, then they should come up with better alternatives. Some people did, including PACtoDOC, and I agreed with some of those suggestions.

    So if people would actually READ the posts prior to my justified rant in posts #41 and #45, they would realize that I never put down people with "lower" MCAT scores; I simply discussed the merits of the test itself, the fact that it should be a PART of the selection process, and that some arbitrary cutoff should be used by schools (which already occurs at many schools anyway).

    None of the points that I brought up are new. Many, not all, medical schools are using the principles I have brought up. So if you disagree, fight the medical schools, not me.

    And post civil, thoughtful arguments against my view, don't personally attack me in private. I'm not here to belittle people for low MCATs and say they can't be good docs. I'm simply arguing that it's the best objective measure adcoms have in the selection process and that "some" cutoff should be used. If that is wrong, then the entire medical school selection processs in this country is f***ed up, which may be the case.

    I can't believe I had to basically repost all my earlier comments because some people didn't take the time to read them or couldn't comprehend what I was saying. :rolleyes:

    If anyone has evidence that I bashed people with low MCATs and said they're going to be bad docs (with the exception of posts #41 and #45, which were personal attack rants), then please use the quote function and prove it. Then I will own up to it and apologize.

    And to Amy B, who said "we (SDN) are here to help people", I have helped a ton of people on this board with honest advice. The latest example being in this same forum 7 hours after I logged back in after my rant in post #45. The title of the thread is "Could use some help on a bioethics assignment!"


    And to PACtoDOC, who said "people like you with your Daddy-paid Kaplan MCAT review who happened to pull a good score out your a#s still look up the a&s end at people like me in class rank. And guess what, class rank has been shown to correlate with boards greater than any other predictor to date. Your argument holds no water, only hot air."

    Please post the studies that support this. This is EXACTLY what I have been doing in this thread - asking for people to argue the addressed issues. And also, don't personally attack my father and my MCAT study methods, when you have no idea what the real situation is. You are FAR off base!
     

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