What are y’all’s thoughts on IV’s in “restricted” limbs? Post-lymph node resections, AV fistulas. Will you access a chemo port if the patient has one as primary IV? Just curious, appreciate the input
What are y’all’s thoughts on IV’s in “restricted” limbs? Post-lymph node resections, AV fistulas. Will you access a chemo port if the patient has one as primary IV? Just curious, appreciate the input
If only it were so easy.Had a job before, if the preop nurse cannot get an IV and we are busy, they get a picc…..
Has anybody?never used an active av fistula.
I put an a-line downstream of one on accident… had some interesting gas result results but waveform was surprisingly normal.Has anybody?
True. An unaccessed/restricted AV fistula is pretty useless in a dead or coding patient.Situationally dependent, but I will get access on a restricted limb if I need to. I avoid it if I can, but sometimes you can’t. If a patient has a port, I will usually look for a separate IV, but if the port is already accessed, I will use it. I have never used an AV fistula…maybe in dire circumstances I might. Again, a lot of these are dependent on the actual situation.
What are y’all’s thoughts on IV’s in “restricted” limbs? Post-lymph node resections, AV fistulas. Will you access a chemo port if the patient has one as primary IV? Just curious, appreciate the input
Has anybody?
If only it were so easy.
I usually don't touch restrict arm. but if no choice, I may, depending on the situations. Not active fistula.
Chemo port? Yes, used a few times. Again no good other alternatives.
One of my vascular surgeons will give me an access through fistula.
I used dialysis catheters. Just remember the heplock.
Talk about IV access, has anyone used AccuVein? Light shining on the arm, all the vessels show up. Nurses love it. I has not been called to put IV for a while due to "difficult IV".
I never understood the no NIBP rule after ALND. Can anybody explain it to me? How can checking a BP on that arm cause harm?
I always thought that BP cuff and IV fluid could worsen edema, but that in an emergency that using it was acceptable. Arterial lines would therefore not be contraindicated using that logic.
Fistula: avoid IV in same arm, as fistula could get infected. Still wouldn't put a BP cuff on a functioning fistula. Aline infection, accuracy?
Try to avoid accessing port as can get infect also.
This is what I was taught, but maybe its just lore that is unsubstantiated.
imagine a case thats 10 hours long, with BP going every 3-5 minutes. it compresses blood/capillaries/etc, and causes swelling. causes nerve damage too
id rather do IV than BP on lymphed arm.
Femoral.I dealt with this recently. Pt ESRD w/SBO s/f exlap had no iv access from the floor and was brought directly to OR due to cdiff (we can’t hold them in preop). She was demented & delirious - ripping everything out & family wanted everything done. She had already been poked everywhere and was covered in bruises. I was struggling to get an awake central line due to squirming/retching and bilateral stenosis of the IJ. She had an Avf on the left arm - my partner suggested access vs PIV below. She couldn’t get the PIV, but, if there was a vascular surgeon around (strangely none that day), I would have asked them to assist with accessing the AVF temporarily. I did not feel comfortable poking it. Eventually, I got a central line in.
In retrospect, subq sedation could have been helpful for the situation.
I dealt with this recently. Pt ESRD w/SBO s/f exlap had no iv access from the floor and was brought directly to OR due to cdiff (we can’t hold them in preop). She was demented & delirious - ripping everything out & family wanted everything done. She had already been poked everywhere and was covered in bruises. I was struggling to get an awake central line due to squirming/retching and bilateral stenosis of the IJ. She had an Avf on the left arm - my partner suggested access vs PIV below. She couldn’t get the PIV, but, if there was a vascular surgeon around (strangely none that day), I would have asked them to assist with accessing the AVF temporarily. I did not feel comfortable poking it. Eventually, I got a central line in.
In retrospect, subq sedation could have been helpful for the situation.
Just drop a 2 or 2.5" angiocath into the IJ next time. Innominate/SVC stenosis is so common that it's not worth the hassle of trying to float 20 cm of a guidewire unless you really need central access and not just access.I dealt with this recently. Pt ESRD w/SBO s/f exlap had no iv access from the floor and was brought directly to OR due to cdiff (we can’t hold them in preop). She was demented & delirious - ripping everything out & family wanted everything done. She had already been poked everywhere and was covered in bruises. I was struggling to get an awake central line due to squirming/retching and bilateral stenosis of the IJ. She had an Avf on the left arm - my partner suggested access vs PIV below. She couldn’t get the PIV, but, if there was a vascular surgeon around (strangely none that day), I would have asked them to assist with accessing the AVF temporarily. I did not feel comfortable poking it. Eventually, I got a central line in.
In retrospect, subq sedation could have been helpful for the situation.
Just drop a 2 or 2.5" angiocath into the IJ next time. Innominate/SVC stenosis is so common that it's not worth the hassle of trying to float 20 cm of a guidewire unless you really need central access and not just access.
"Midline" in the IJ.
Do arterial line and enjoy the extra two units for the case?imagine a case thats 10 hours long, with BP going every 3-5 minutes. it compresses blood/capillaries/etc, and causes swelling. causes nerve damage too
id rather do IV than BP on lymphed arm.
just be sure to tourniquet real good to get the vein to pop up"Midline" in the IJ.
"Midline" in the IJ.
just be sure to tourniquet real good to get the vein to pop up
I dealt with this recently. Pt ESRD w/SBO s/f exlap had no iv access from the floor and was brought directly to OR due to cdiff (we can’t hold them in preop). She was demented & delirious - ripping everything out & family wanted everything done. She had already been poked everywhere and was covered in bruises. I was struggling to get an awake central line due to squirming/retching and bilateral stenosis of the IJ. She had an Avf on the left arm - my partner suggested access vs PIV below. She couldn’t get the PIV, but, if there was a vascular surgeon around (strangely none that day), I would have asked them to assist with accessing the AVF temporarily. I did not feel comfortable poking it. Eventually, I got a central line in.
In retrospect, subq sedation could have been helpful for the situation.
I think the IJ is a more reliable target.I meant if that was all needed, why not just be the line in EJ?
I wasn’t talking about a lymphedematous arm but a normal arm that had prior ALND. Seems like intermittent compression might be beneficial, perhaps it would prevent a DVT in that arm.
Punch her in the leg for an io
I usually don't touch restrict arm. but if no choice, I may, depending on the situations. Not active fistula.
Chemo port? Yes, used a few times. Again no good other alternatives.
One of my vascular surgeons will give me an access through fistula.
I used dialysis catheters. Just remember the heplock.
Talk about IV access, has anyone used AccuVein? Light shining on the arm, all the vessels show up. Nurses love it. I has not been called to put IV for a while due to "difficult IV".
The EJ is sometimes non-existent, and when it is there, compared to an IJ it's usually harder to stick (or thread off into). And even with a 2" catheter the EJ is less reliable vis a vis infiltrating, being positional/kinking, or being up against a valve. And the infectious risk for leaving an angiocath in the IJ for a day or two is probably no different than an EJ.I meant if that was all needed, why not just be the line in EJ?
The only way I know how to place an EJ…..
I'd worry about a graft but not a native fistula. Surely no worse than the fistula itself being accessed multiple times a week.I always thought that BP cuff and IV fluid could worsen edema, but that in an emergency that using it was acceptable. Arterial lines would therefore not be contraindicated using that logic.
Fistula: avoid IV in same arm, as fistula could get infected. Still wouldn't put a BP cuff on a functioning fistula. Aline infection, accuracy?
Try to avoid accessing port as can get infect also.
This is what I was taught, but maybe its just lore that is unsubstantiated.