Accreditation

[hippuppy]

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So how important is a 4 year vs. 5 year accreditation with anesthesiology programs? I have interviews at programs with both and not sure if I should bring this up at my interviews. I had someone recently tell me that their program was accredited for 4 years simply because the size of the program was large and there was a great dependence on residents for essentially cheap labor. What do you think?

 

[lord_jeebus]

My program has 5-year accreditation, but I don't think 4-year is a big deal. 3 years should raise some suspicion. Less than that is a big issue.

 

[countingdays]

d

 

[countingdays]

Even a 3 isn't a problem. I wouldn't even consider cycle length when ranking programs unless they are at risk of probation.

 

[Bertelman]

Even a 3 isn't a problem. I wouldn't even consider cycle length when ranking programs unless they are at risk of probation.

I certainly would. No program will ever tell you they're at risk of probation, but a 3-yr cycle suggests the ACGME thinks so. I'm not saying you should remove all 3-yr programs from your ROL. There are some valid, non-threatening resons some folks get 3 yrs.

All other things being equal, a 5-yr v. 3-yr accreditation should make you think one program is more stable. That's where I would go.

 

[RussianJoo]

so do you guys think that a program gets less accreditation just because the ACGME feels like the program isn't strong in training their residents based on board pass rates? ACGME accreditation history only goes back 10 years, what if in those 10 years a program has never been on probation but still has an accreditation cycle say of 2 years why do you think that is? was it because it was on probation 11 or 12 years ago? How many years do you guys think a program has to be probation free before their accreditation cycle is increased? do you think that maybe a program has to apply to have their accreditation cycle increased or do you think it's automatic based on ACGME reviews? Could it be that a program isn't concerned with going on probation because they know they won't and simply don't apply to increase their accreditation cycle?

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

so do you guys think that a program gets less accreditation just because the ACGME feels like the program isn't strong in training their residents based on board pass rates? ACGME accreditation history only goes back 10 years, what if in those 10 years a program has never been on probation but still has an accreditation cycle say of 2 years why do you think that is? was it because it was on probation 11 or 12 years ago? How many years do you guys think a program has to be probation free before their accreditation cycle is increased? do you think that maybe a program has to apply to have their accreditation cycle increased or do you think it's automatic based on ACGME reviews? Could it be that a program isn't concerned with going on probation because they know they won't and simply don't apply to increase their accreditation cycle?

I'm pretty sure they set the cycle length at each visit. So, if it's 2 years,and they come back 2 years later and things have turned around, it goes to 3, and then 3 years later goes to 4, etc. I think a program that has been on a 2-year cycle for a decade or more is a bit of a red flag.

 

[cach]

Can someone tell me, where to find the length of Accreditation information?

I looked at the ACGME web site but it offers very little of the tons of information it collects about programs for the public to see.

 

[Gimlet]

The difference between 5 year vs. 4 year accreditation can be extremely minute. The RRC has gotten very tight-fisted with 5yr accreditations in the last few years. Our program recently got renewed for 4 years (up from 3 the previous cycle) and the lone deficiency the reviewer cited was that some of our residents hadn't logged enough A-lines and central lines (unfortunately it wasn't due to lack of procedures, but because several of our CA-3s were really bad about logging their cases). That was enough to keep us from a 5 year cycle, near as our program can tell.

 

[Gimlet]

Can someone tell me, where to find the length of Accreditation information?

I looked at the ACGME web site but it offers very little of the tons of information it collects about programs for the public to see.

You can go to this page and search for programs by specialty and state, then "view details" and it will have the cycle length listed and accreditation date in the program's information. Make sure you're looking at the cycle length and not the "accredited program length" which is just the standard 4 years for anesthesiology residency (or 3 if it's only has advanced spots).

 

[countingdays]

The difference between 5 year vs. 4 year accreditation can be extremely minute. The RRC has gotten very tight-fisted with 5yr accreditations in the last few years. Our program recently got renewed for 4 years (up from 3 the previous cycle) and the lone deficiency the reviewer cited was that some of our residents hadn't logged enough A-lines and central lines (unfortunately it wasn't due to lack of procedures, but because several of our CA-3s were really bad about logging their cases). That was enough to keep us from a 5 year cycle, near as our program can tell.

Exactly. Are you going to avoid a program because some residents didn't do a great job logging cases? The review cycle is not a ranking of quality of training. It is about documentation. Short cycles can be a red flag sure, but don't go reading too much into cycle length.

I don't know what my program's cycle length is.

 

[countingdays]

Looked it up. My fellowship program's cycle length is 5 years, so I'm obviously not being defensive by telling you not to worry about it too much. My residency has a 4 year cycle. It made no difference to me.

 

[killerleaf]

Accreditation cycle length is about how well you fill out the paperwork. Really great programs can get 4 years, and not so great can get 5 years. It is dependent on how well you can put everything down on paper.

 

[DO4lifer]

If a program is blaming their residents for not logging as a reason they got 4 year accreditation, then i would AVOID that place.

programs that fess up and take the hit as why they didn't get the 5 are the places you want to go. Residents are there to learn and train...they aren't there to be ridiculed/blamed.

With that said, some 4 year programs got 4 years because they didn't have a chief or were in some "transition". 3 years probably had some greater issues, such as work hour violations.

My advice: Ask them. If they get defensive, then you know its not a great program. If they are honest and straightforward, then you know they are working to be better. 👍

 

[RussianJoo]

I'm pretty sure they set the cycle length at each visit. So, if it's 2 years,and they come back 2 years later and things have turned around, it goes to 3, and then 3 years later goes to 4, etc. I think a program that has been on a 2-year cycle for a decade or more is a bit of a red flag.

Sorry, for the late response. I'm doing floors this month. My qustion with your statement is that if you're saying that acgme increases cycle length everytime they do a site visit, then wouldn't they also decrease it everytime they do a site visit and things that they asked the program to do didn't get done? So why would a program stay at the same cycle length? I know I'm not at an amazing program, and I'll probably end up asking them why they have such a short cycle length. But I'm also trying to figure out why they've consistently stayed at the same cycle length.

Thanks.

 

[Depakote]

I'm not particularly worried about 4-5 year cycle of accreditation programs... but when I looked at some of the places I applied to, a number of them had 2 and 3 year cycles. Am I wrong to take this as a red flag? I doubt this is all about documentation.

I'd ask about it in an interview, but if interviews start to conflict, would dropping a 2-3 year cycle program to interview at a seemingly more stable program be unjustified?

 

[countingdays]

I'm not particularly worried about 4-5 year cycle of accreditation programs... but when I looked at some of the places I applied to, a number of them had 2 and 3 year cycles. Am I wrong to take this as a red flag? I doubt this is all about documentation.

I'd ask about it in an interview, but if interviews start to conflict, would dropping a 2-3 year cycle program to interview at a seemingly more stable program be unjustified?

There's no reason to lump 2's and 3's together. There are probably some fine programs with 3 year cycles.