ACFAS question

[ExperiencedDPM]

Prior to me reaching out to the ACFAS, does anyone know how many years someone can maintain the "associate" status of the ACFAS? I understand that fellowship status is granted after passing the ABFAS exam(s), but if someone has been in practice for 15 years and never passed the ABFAS exam(s), can that person continue to maintain "associate" status for an indefinite time? I would think it would expire when the window for passing the ABFAS exam(s) was closed.

I had someone send in a CV and the person graduated in 2008 and is still stating he/she is an associate of the ACFAS and was even on a committee recently. I wonder if this person simply flew under the radar and the ACFAS turned the other way so they can keep collecting the dues.

Thanks

 

[deleted1162946]

who cares. I could be an associate of ACFAS if I wanted and my job would even pay for it but I really just don’t care. This is such a podiatry thing. Probably is expired and the person with the CV just doesn’t understand its meaning.

 

[DYK343]

Prior to me reaching out to the ACFAS, does anyone know how many years someone can maintain the "associate" status of the ACFAS? I understand that fellowship status is granted after passing the ABFAS exam(s), but if someone has been in practice for 15 years and never passed the ABFAS exam(s), can that person continue to maintain "associate" status for an indefinite time? I would think it would expire when the window for passing the ABFAS exam(s) was closed.

I had someone send in a CV and the person graduated in 2008 and is still stating he/she is an associate of the ACFAS and was even on a committee recently. I wonder if this person simply flew under the radar and the ACFAS turned the other way so they can keep collecting the dues.

Thanks

I would assume 7 years.

You have to pass ABFAS within 7 years residency graduation

You have to pass ABFAS to become a fellow with ACFAS.

So 7 years.

Pathway to Certification

The pathway from qualification to certification for ABFAS candidates

www.abfas.org

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

Prior to me reaching out to the ACFAS, does anyone know how many years someone can maintain the "associate" status of the ACFAS? I understand that fellowship status is granted after passing the ABFAS exam(s), but if someone has been in practice for 15 years and never passed the ABFAS exam(s), can that person continue to maintain "associate" status for an indefinite time? I would think it would expire when the window for passing the ABFAS exam(s) was closed.

I had someone send in a CV and the person graduated in 2008 and is still stating he/she is an associate of the ACFAS and was even on a committee recently. I wonder if this person simply flew under the radar and the ACFAS turned the other way so they can keep collecting the dues.

Thanks

It is 7 years then you can't become certified with ABFAS.

This really is not a problem unless the person of interest is still doing surgery. If they are board certified through ABPM as well then it does not matter depending on the state and the hospital bylaws. Not being board certified by ABFAS would not matter.

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

who cares. I could be an associate of ACFAS if I wanted and my job would even pay for it but I really just don’t care. This is such a podiatry thing. Probably is expired and the person with the CV just doesn’t understand its meaning.

I don’t remember asking you if you cared. I simply asked if anyone knew whether the associate status disappeared after someone was no longer eligible to take/pass the ABFAS exam.

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

It is 7 years then you can't become certified with ABFAS.

This really is not a problem unless the person of interest is still doing surgery. If they are board certified through ABPM as well then it does not matter depending on the state and the hospital bylaws. Not being board certified by ABFAS would not matter.

Thanks. I know the ABFAS rules but don’t know if that carries over to the ACFAS and if the associate status disappears after the ABFAS expiration.

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

I would assume 7 years.

You have to pass ABFAS within 7 years residency graduation

You have to pass ABFAS to become a fellow with ACFAS.

So 7 years.

Pathway to Certification

The pathway from qualification to certification for ABFAS candidates

www.abfas.org

Thanks. I know someone can’t move up to fellow status without passing the ABFAS exam, but wondered if they can simply maintain associate status for an infinite time.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

Thanks. I know someone can’t move up to fellow status without passing the ABFAS exam, but wondered if they can simply maintain associate status for an infinite time.

It's a weird thing to care about. Only ACFAS can answer this question. Let us know what you find out. Thanks

 

[heybrother]

To me the answer is - when did ABFAS do away with the "two try" system where you got 6-7 years twice.

If they graduated in 2008 - did 3 years of residency, and then had 14 years to complete - then theoretically they expire this year.

I don't remember when the system changed though.

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

It's a weird thing to care about. Only ACFAS can answer this question. Let us know what you find out. Thanks

Not sure saying I “care about “ it is accurate. It was a question based on curiosity. If someone sends me a CV looking for a position, I want someone who doesn’t embellish his/her CV. I’m not making a judgement regarding board status, just wondering why someone would list that he/she is an associate of the ACFAS, when not board certified and out of school for 15 years. It can simply be that it was never removed from the CV, etc.

I will reach it to folks I know at ACFAS. My opinion is that they are likely lenient since it’s a source of income.

 

[dtrack22]

Not sure saying I “care about “ it is accurate. It was a question based on curiosity. If someone sends me a CV looking for a position, I want someone who doesn’t embellish his/her CV. I’m not making a judgement regarding board status, just wondering why someone would list that he/she is an associate of the ACFAS, when not board certified and out of school for 15 years. It can simply be that it was never removed from the CV, etc.

I will reach it to folks I know at ACFAS. My opinion is that they are likely lenient since it’s a source of income.

The “7 years to pass” rule started at some point after Feli finished residency (he should be able to give you the info you seek). Someone from 2008 had different rules than the people replying here who state we now have 7 years. I just don’t remember how it used to work. Heybrother’s reply is more accurate than the others based on when this individual graduated. I just don’t know what the old rules to certification were.

 

[Feli]

AACFAS = requires ABFAS board qual
FACFAS = requires ABFAS board cert

It is possible for pre-2014 residency grads to be ABFAS qual (foot +/- rra) for 7 years, then re-qual for another 7 years (have to pass the qual exams again). It's listed in the ABFAS documents. (find "2014" in the doc). They could then be ACFAS associate, AACFAS, for same span if they paid those dues.

So, the last grads with those 7+7 rules would be ones who finished residency 2013 or 2014... if they used and passed the re-qual 7+7, they could be ABFAS qual (and then eligible for AACFAS) until 2027 or 2028? They'd lose ACFAS eligible soon after... ACFAS gets status from ABFAS updated a few times yearly after exams, people who drop ABFAS, etc. They'd have maybe a half year to a year max before ACFAS would say they're not eligible to renew.

In reality, most ppl who did re-qual did it at least a year earlier (in case they needed to re-try either didactic or Cbps part of qual, foot or Rra).
That is what I did (finished residency 2012, school 2009): associate job-hopped, didn't try for cert first qual cycle since cases were scattered, did re-qual a year early, passed that... now cert. I'll say that ABFAS qual exam is reasonably hard once you've been out more than a few years. I passed both parts didactic and cbps again (and then "new" cbps also), and I found it a lot harder re-qual than fresh out of residency with academics, in-training, reading a lot, journal clubs, etc (yet you test and get curved against those ppl).

The only other possible wild card might be the (many) people who fail ABFAS qual coming out of residency. Some pass the qual later on. I don't know when their clock started on first 7yrs qual, possible 2nd qual 7yrs (if pre-2014), etc. But you get the idea overall.

To me the answer is - when did ABFAS do away with the "two try" system where you got 6-7 years twice.

If they graduated in 2008 - did 3 years of residency, and then had 14 years to complete - then theoretically they expire this year.

I don't remember when the system changed though.

This is correct... it was pre-2014 residency grads who had the change (can't re-take ABFAS tests and re-qual on ABFAS for another 7 years).

... If they are board certified through ABPM as well then it does not matter depending on the state and the hospital bylaws. ...

Exactly. Take the podiatry route: easier way instead of actually learning the stuff.
Works for pod school... works for displaying competence in surgery too. 🙂

 

[air bud]

Not sure saying I “care about “ it is accurate. It was a question based on curiosity. If someone sends me a CV looking for a position, I want someone who doesn’t embellish his/her CV. I’m not making a judgement regarding board status, just wondering why someone would list that he/she is an associate of the ACFAS, when not board certified and out of school for 15 years. It can simply be that it was never removed from the CV, etc.

I will reach it to folks I know at ACFAS. My opinion is that they are likely lenient since it’s a source of income.

Bold call

 

[GreenHousePub]

I know someone who graduated in 2006 that had the board qualifier for like 14 years before they gave up. The 7 year rule is recent.

 

[deleted1162946]

I don’t remember asking you if you cared. I simply asked if anyone knew whether the associate status disappeared after someone was no longer eligible to take/pass the ABFAS exam.

It just looks like you’re really trying to “get someone” when it’s not a big deal at all.

I remember reading about someone getting sued over using aacfas and they didn’t pay their dues. So they technically weren’t, although they did pass the abfas exams.

We just are in a silly profession. It’s meaningless letters after your name.

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

It just looks like you’re really trying to “get someone” when it’s not a big deal at all.

I remember reading about someone getting sued over using aacfas and they didn’t pay their dues. So they technically weren’t, although they did pass the abfas exams.

We just are in a silly profession. It’s meaningless letters after your name.

Not trying to “get someone”. That’s not my style and would serve no purpose. But when I have candidates for a position, I do like honesty, accuracy and no fluff.

The minute I see a candidate put the “Bako fellowship” on the CV is the minute I stop reading any further.

 

[air bud]

It just looks like you’re really trying to “get someone” when it’s not a big deal at all.

I remember reading about someone getting sued over using aacfas and they didn’t pay their dues. So they technically weren’t, although they did pass the abfas exams.

We just are in a silly profession. It’s meaningless letters after your name.

Disagree. It all matters.

 

[Feli]

Disagree. It all matters.

Second that.

Podiatry (and many other health professions) are getting super expensive, interest rates are high. ROI is getting poor or even totally unreasonable. If you watch the Ramsey vid Borrowed Future on YTube, it's absolutely depressing. Just like housing bubble, student loans relative to one's income after borrowing can ruin your life... and it does for many people. But if you won't sign for them, the next guy/girl happily will.

You don't want to dismiss high debt ("I'll just pay it later" or "it will get forgiven" or "I can't pay it off"), and you sure don't want to limit yourself on ROI if you do undertake the school/training/debt... which we obviously all did.

One needs to have as many podiatry job options as possible, any edge possible, not get auto-rejected from the relatively few good jobs we do have (relative to the massive number of DPM job seekers). ABFAS qual and then cert is the best way to do that. I was denied interview or otherwise weeded out a few times back when I was going for employed jobs. ABFAS foot cert puts you ahead of at least half of job apps, and RRA puts you ahead of nearly all. Even WITH all of that, you see many ABFAS guys working in tiny towns or in PP since that's the best they can find, so that's how essential it is to not limit yourself. Fellowships are further evidence of how bad our job options are.

Besides, even if you may have found the job anyways or been willing to go to BFE or the hospital doesn't understand our boards, being board cert ABFAS is also a way to angle for more pay, especially at org jobs. In PP owner/partner, you have job security... but it still helps there also: you can use it for asking for improved fee schedules from payers if you're one of only a few pods in your area with cert. Maxing out ROI is essential. No job or wage or schedule is ever permanent in a highly saturated profession such as this.

Accordingly, hospitals and groups hiring or privileging will tend to check that people actually have the training and certs they claim they do. Between their board cert, calling their residency director, reviewing logs, that is what is done every day to check podiatry (and other surgeons). It may have its flaws, but it's the best we have right now.

 

[deleted1162946]

Disagree. It all matters.

I think position on FACFAS/aacfas/abfas depends on if you’re certified by them and if you’re a podiatrist or not

1. Podiatrist and certified - it matters
2. Podiatrist and not certified - doesn’t matter
3. Non podiatrist - no one cares/knows

If you get hired by a podiatris or if a podiatrist has messed with the hospital privileging it may matter.

Employed by non podiatrist.. likely no one cares/knows

My main problem with Abfas is it’s way more difficult to get certified as a younger podiatrist compared to all these TFP’s who were grandfathered in. I know abfas certified doctors in residency who you wouldn’t trust to do a nail avulsion

 

[Feli]

... If you get hired by a podiatris or if a podiatrist has messed with the hospital privileging it may matter.

Employed by non podiatrist.. likely no one cares/knows ...

I think a lot of DPMs don't realize how often it is another DPM (or a few), doing or heavily influencing the hiring decisions, though. I would say it's at least 80% overall... probably 90% or more.

In typical small and medium PP podiatry groups, they obviously have a DPM directly doing hiring.
In a podiatry large group or supergroup or VC group, it might be corp/mgr person... but it's obvious it's DPM decisions.
However, if there is even one other pod working in the MSG/hospital system, supergroup, etc... then a pod is most likely filtering the apps and/or will have a say (if not total say) in who interviews or is hired. That is the case with nearly every job I was ever considered or interviewed for. The idea that just because it's a HR person or CEO or office manager or MD surgeon or whoever doing the tour or the phone screen interview or recruiting doesn't mean a DPM isn't highly involved in the hiring process.

Bottom line is just don't limit your options.
Studying and logging cases for a few years won't hurt anyone.
Careers are long. Max out possible ROI and job options.
You paid a ton of loans + interest.

 

[deleted1162946]

I think a lot of DPMs don't realize how often it is another DPM (or a few), doing or heavily influencing the hiring decisions, though. I would say it's at least 80% overall... probably 90% or more.

In typical small and medium PP podiatry groups, they obviously have a DPM directly doing hiring.
In a podiatry large group or supergroup or VC group, it might be corp/mgr person... but it's obvious it's DPM decisions.
However, if there is even one other pod working in the MSG/hospital system, supergroup, etc... then a pod is most likely filtering the apps and/or will have a say (if not total say) in who interviews or is hired. That is the case with nearly every job I was ever considered or interviewed for. The idea that just because it's a HR person or CEO or office manager or MD surgeon or whoever doing the tour or the phone screen interview or recruiting doesn't mean a DPM isn't highly involved in the hiring process.

Bottom line is just don't limit your options.
Studying and logging cases for a few years won't hurt anyone.
Careers are long. Max out possible ROI and job options.
You paid a ton of loans + interest.

I don’t disagree but also you’re certified by abfas right? Probably why you feel this way deep down.. and I’m not which is probably why I feel this way deep down.

 

[Feli]

I don’t disagree but also you’re certified by abfas right? Probably why you feel this way deep down.. and I’m not which is probably why I feel this way deep down.

Yeah, and I would have a lot more job options now (if I were still in job/employed market).

Not getting ABFAS will limit the job options for a DPM. There is no two ways around that.

Just because some people can find a job + hospital(s) that take ABPM doesn't mean their career or the rules won't change later on.
Even if they can find a VA wound job or something that lets them not be ABFAS qual/cert, it might not last or admins may change.
The late great CWF said it best: don't give them any reason to limit you.

Bottom line: with as saturated and expensive edu debt as podiatry is, you need every edge possible. It's basically a financial faceplant for new grads to not even try for ABFAS when we sell ourselves as surgeons, want to offer those services, and mainly because DPMs who understand our boards are the gatekeepers at the vast majority of podiatrist jobs.

It's easy to dismiss that common podiatry hiring/privileging preference for ABFAS as being "elitism" or "discrimination" or to think it's not very common, but that's shooting your arrow and then paining the bullseye after it lands. The plain facts are that any podiatrist job would logically take a more proven/trained DPM over one who doesn't have that stuff. Even groups of TFPs often want to hire a super surgeon (because there are so many now... and they don't cost much, so why not?). You see it now with stupid podiatry fellowships: groups that have no fellowship docs saying "fellowship preferred" for their next associate. It may not be logical or to your liking, but it's about maxxing your career options and ROI.

 

[heybrother]

I don't believe for a second that ABFAS will get you better rates with payors. If you want to believe things like that then you should believe that being fellowship trained will get you better rates. It won't.

Insurance companies know one thing and one thing only about you - they know you are a podiatrist. That's enough for them and they act accordingly.

I was once told by someone that I would be able to negotiate better rates with insurance companies because I knew how to perform lapiplasty and insurance companies would value having to only have the bunion corrected once, lol, ...by a $5000 hardware system. Hilarious and obviously a load of crap. The phrase that comes up with insurance companies - "podiatry fee schedule". That's what we are regardless of what our foot and ankle surgery scrubs say when it comes time to get paid.

I once wrote an email to Humana explaining the value I provide - my location, my hospital privileges (I was the only podiatrist in town who had them), the fact that I routinely helped patients with chronic multi-year HBO wounds resolve their issues with one definitive surgery. I was getting 65% of Medicare and in response to a long and detailed email they wrote back literally one word. "No".

Yes, I am aware that you have to list a board certification in CAQH.

I just filled out the paperwork for a new insurance the other day. They had a questionaire. There was not a single word about board certification on it. It was very obvious what they wanted to know - cost savings by ensuring I was willing to affilitiate/refer with in network laboratories, in network HBO, and in network wound healing centers. They specifically wanted to know my vascular affiliations and how I got patients treatment for PVD.

 

[619]

I don't believe for a second that ABFAS will get you better rates with payors. If you want to believe things like that then you should believe that being fellowship trained will get you better rates. It won't.

100% agree. The only way to get better rates with payors is to join an IPA or CIN. I know this first hand. I am board certified in both abfas and abpm so I have tried that angle too for rate increase. Board certification is dime a dozen if you practice in any major metro area. Abfas cert is not going to get anyone a rate increase.

Insurance companies are very sticky about rate increase. They do everything legally (or not) possibly to bring their cost down by denying claims, pre or post payment audits, reducing benefits, high deductibles, high co-pays, pre-authorizations etc.

 

[Feli]

... I am board certified in both abfas and abpm so I have tried that angle too for rate increase. Board certification is dime a dozen if you practice in any major metro area. Abfas cert is not going to get anyone a rate increase....

Yes, if you read my post above, it said:
"... In PP owner/partner, you have job security... but it still helps there also: you can use it for asking for improved fee schedules from payers if you're one of only a few pods in your area with cert. ... "

I agree most payers in any area, and probably all in metro, won't care for a saturated specialty. However, in doctor-thin areas, it's never a *bad* thing to have your credentialing/biller remind payers you're the only ABFAS cert or RRA cert pod in your city, county, hospital, etc. Insurances want capable providers on their directory... and longevity is nice too.

 

[heybrother]

This feels like a silly thing to argue about on a Saturday, but I still am going to protest, because otherwise some 3rd year podiatry student will be posting in an ABFAS commercial that they want to be board certified so they can get better rates. People are free to see value in ABFAS, but extrapolating to insurance behavior is a fools game. We can remind insurance all day of our qualifications and ABFAS certifified pods will assuredly post at length about the intensity of their certification - it won't change anything.

Earlier this year I dropped an insurance that I was the only person to accept in town. The insurance in question literally was not accepted by the trauma / charity hospital that takes the gunshots and the MVAs. I asked for a rate increase - I was getting like $35 for a 99213. I wondered if somehow it was a Medicaid plan that we'd been mistakenly added to. It wasn't - it was just terrible. They refused and I dropped them. Not a word of protest was spoken on their part. This was a major national insurance company.

Another insurance - a MA plan - contacted me about going in network. Again, a major national company. No one in town was in network with it. They still refused to pay straight Medicare and I refused to go in network with them.

There's nothing wrong with putting forward a strong list of qualifications, but I'm not even certain that podiatry is a specialty that insurance has to have in network. I used to work the assumption that insurances were expected to have "developed panels of physicians". I don't know that this applies to us. Maybe its because so much of what we do is "done" by others. Maybe its because we aren't MD/DOs. But any sort of advantage I've sought by pointing out "I'm the only one" - goes no where. I actually have a sneaking suspicion that talking about surgery with insurance is a fools game because they don't actually want people doing surgery. Surgery equals facilities and facilities run up the bill.

 

[Utvolsdpm]

Graduating residency in 2014 was the cut off. Ask me how I know 😆

Prior to 2011 applicants had 7 years to become board certified but if you didn’t pass you just start all over at the beginning of the process. In 2011 they decided if you don’t pass in 7 years you can never become board certified ever.

 

[Weirdy]

New grad.
Hospital credentialing and surgical privileges were the only thing that mattered when it came to board certification status.

Some hospitals did not let me do rear foot/ ankles/ skin substitute applications unless I was ABFAS cert.
Especially true in areas with heavy politics involved (gate keeping pods or ortho heavy).

80% of the hospitals didn't care as long as I was board certified in something and was requesting surgical privileges that were reflective of residency case logs.

To be clear I'm not out here trying to put in TARs and doing heavy recons or compex trimals or stuff I wasn't trained to do / am uncomfortable doing.

Was just trying to get credentialed to get malpractice and get on insurance panels and to see where I could take the odd infected toe that needed to go.

 

[MicroPod]

Man I’m so glad I started at a hospital system. Credentialing was all taken care of and didn’t have to worry about malpractice or anything really other than getting my state license. I’m already on all the insurance panels at this point and they took care of all of that.

Explained the process for ABFAS board certification which they are ok with. May try for ABPM this year since they will pay for it anyways.

 

[air bud]

Second that.

Podiatry (and many other health professions) are getting super expensive, interest rates are high. ROI is getting poor or even totally unreasonable. If you watch the Ramsey vid Borrowed Future on YTube, it's absolutely depressing. Just like housing bubble, student loans relative to one's income after borrowing can ruin your life... and it does for many people. But if you won't sign for them, the next guy/girl happily will.

You don't want to dismiss high debt ("I'll just pay it later" or "it will get forgiven" or "I can't pay it off"), and you sure don't want to limit yourself on ROI if you do undertake the school/training/debt... which we obviously all did.

One needs to have as many podiatry job options as possible, any edge possible, not get auto-rejected from the relatively few good jobs we do have (relative to the massive number of DPM job seekers). ABFAS qual and then cert is the best way to do that. I was denied interview or otherwise weeded out a few times back when I was going for employed jobs. ABFAS foot cert puts you ahead of at least half of job apps, and RRA puts you ahead of nearly all. Even WITH all of that, you see many ABFAS guys working in tiny towns or in PP since that's the best they can find, so that's how essential it is to not limit yourself. Fellowships are further evidence of how bad our job options are.

Besides, even if you may have found the job anyways or been willing to go to BFE or the hospital doesn't understand our boards, being board cert ABFAS is also a way to angle for more pay, especially at org jobs. In PP owner/partner, you have job security... but it still helps there also: you can use it for asking for improved fee schedules from payers if you're one of only a few pods in your area with cert. Maxing out ROI is essential. No job or wage or schedule is ever permanent in a highly saturated profession such as this.

Accordingly, hospitals and groups hiring or privileging will tend to check that people actually have the training and certs they claim they do. Between their board cert, calling their residency director, reviewing logs, that is what is done every day to check podiatry (and other surgeons). It may have its flaws, but it's the best we have right now.

For the record I did not say that acfas matters, I said checking in on them to make sure they're not making stuff up matters

 

[Feli]

For the record I did not say that acfas matters, I said checking in on them to make sure they're not making stuff up matters

Podiatrists don't make stuff up.

Partnership can be talked about in a few years.
I am proficient in triple arthrodesis and pilon fractures.
Overhead is 75% at these offices.
I did 900 surgeries last year... the most in my hospital system.
My fellowship was the best in the country.

 

[heybrother]

You will be busy in no time. We are booked out for months.
There is all sorts of rearfoot pathology we have been referring out.
You will make lots of money here.
I am open to adding new products / buying new equipment that you think would be beneficial.
You will be able to build the type of practice you want here.
Going out into the community and bringing people cookies will bring you name recognition.

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

Podiatrists don't make stuff up.

Partnership can be talked about in a few years.
I am proficient in triple arthrodesis and pilon fractures.
Overhead is 75% at these offices.
I did 900 surgeries last year... the most in my hospital system.
My fellowship was the best in the country.

Don’t forget:

-I ALWAYS wanted to be a podiatrist.

-What do I do for a living? Oh, I’m a reconstructive lower extremity surgeon.

-this laser will clear that nail fungus in 3 visits.

-I did my residency at one of the best foot and ankle programs in the universe (Podunk Community Hospital)

-I am a consultant to many local sports teams (little Joey’s t-ball team)

-I was accepted at Harvard Medical school but ALWAYS wanted to be a podiatrist…..again

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

If you have ABFAS cert there is no reason to get ABPM. Even if you are ABFAS qualified you should pass the certifying board exam

 

[deleted1162946]

If you have ABFAS cert there is no reason to get ABPM. Even if you are ABFAS qualified you should pass the certifying board exam

I did both in case I never get abfas certified