ACGME response to failed merger

[Dharma]

Dr. Bowtie posted this in another thread, but it may get more views with a thread of its own.
Definitely need to read this!

http://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Portal...July232013.pdf

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[QuackaDO]

Dead link... got a current one?

 

[DrBowtie]

Dead link... got a current one?

Just go to ACGME website. It's on the front page.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

http://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Portals/0/PDFs/Nasca-Community/NascaLetterGMECommunityJuly232013.pdf

Honestly they seem ultra pissed about the AOA wasting their time.

 

[QuackaDO]

Yeah, got it now. So... "an issue that they deemed to be
essential and that they wished to be addressed in a fashion different from the position of the ACGME negotiating team (not osteopathic principles or distinctiveness). That issue was discussed at the ACGME Board of Directors meeting, and the modification sought by the AOA and AACOM was accepted and incorporated into the MOU as demonstration of ACGME’s willingness to “go the extra mile” to make this agreement possible."

So let me see if I got this right AOA... it was alllllll about maintaining osteopathic distinctiveness, right? What a crock of ****. If I wasn't pissed enough about this already I pretty much just lost it.

 

[QuackaDO]

http://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Portals/0/PDFs/Nasca-Community/NascaLetterGMECommunityJuly232013.pdf

Honestly they seem ultra pissed about the AOA wasting their time.

Sounds to me like they have every right to be. Let's be honest... do you think the ACGME rep is lying? In open public in a public statement? Yeah, me neither. Conversely the AOA was all sketchy about why and fabricated "justifications" for their decisions without ever actually saying that any of these justifications (the osteopathic distinction crap) were at risk. They spun words to make it look like they were protecting the osteopathic community but ACGME basically just called their bluff and said NONE of those issues were the sticking points and that AOA backed out for selfish reasons. Boom, busted and yes I believe that because can you tell me the ACGME's legal team would allow release of this statement if there was any chance that it could come back and bite them in the ass as them lying/slandering/disclosing? Nope, they basically just said, in a round about way, that the "reasons" the AOA is stating that they rejected the deal are not the real reasons and that the AOA is feeding us a line of crap. Shocker.

 

[NeuroLAX]

Not surprised.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Sounds to me like they have every right to be. Let's be honest... do you think the ACGME rep is lying? In open public in a public statement? Yeah, me neither. Conversely the AOA was all sketchy about why and fabricated "justifications" for their decisions without ever actually saying that any of these justifications (the osteopathic distinction crap) were at risk. They spun words to make it look like they were protecting the osteopathic community but ACGME basically just called their bluff and said NONE of those issues were the sticking points and that AOA backed out for selfish reasons. Boom, busted and yes I believe that because can you tell me the ACGME's legal team would allow release of this statement if there was any chance that it could come back and bite them in the ass as them lying/slandering/disclosing? Nope, they basically just said, in a round about way, that the "reasons" the AOA is stating that they rejected the deal are not the real reasons and that the AOA is feeding us a line of crap. Shocker.

Honestly, I've talked about it multiple times and what not, deciding to opt to take another year off if I only get accepted to a DO school. But as of now, I am reasonably sure that I cannot imagine going to a DO school. They have proven that they are an organization that is driven only by self interest and a desire to collect dues from its students and doctors.

I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow the headquarters of the AOA finds a copy of this nailed to their door. They simply messed up big and they betrayed everyone who they were supposed to look after. They not only destroyed a chance to benefit their students, they hurt their student's image for years to come.

 

[thepoopologist]

My guess is many programs would've been closed if put up to ACGME standards and nobody wanted that.

 

[QuackaDO]

Honestly, I've talked about it multiple times and what not, deciding to opt to take another year off if I only get accepted to a DO school. But as of now, I am reasonably sure that I cannot imagine going to a DO school. They have proven that they are an organization that is driven only by self interest and a desire to collect dues from its students and doctors.

I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow the headquarters of the AOA finds a copy of this nailed to their door. They simply messed up big and they betrayed everyone who they were supposed to look after. They not only destroyed a chance to benefit their students, they hurt their student's image for years to come.

Amen friend, and if you are in ANY position where you can possibly make it into an MD program then I'd whole heartedly advise you to do so. I honestly feel like this might be the breaking point and it wouldn't surprise me if this turns ugly and DOs are told to "fend for themselves" from the ACGME. Honestly, I think they'd be well within their rights to do so if they chose to. I just hope I can get into residency in this upcoming match before they decide to go that route. Thanks AOA for screwing the students of today and of the future.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

My guess is many programs would've been closed if put up to ACGME standards and nobody wanted that.

They claimed to give them until 2018 or 2020 to clean up their act and improve to some standard.

 

[QuackaDO]

My guess is many programs would've been closed if put up to ACGME standards and nobody wanted that.

So they want to keep open sub-par programs? Sadly, I'm pretty sure you are right and that's at least part of it. Lol... AOA fighting to NOT have to make their programs better and live up to the standards that EVERYONE else has to live up to... just so they can keep a few more programs open and make a little more money. This is disgusting.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Amen friend, and if you are in ANY position where you can possibly make it into an MD program then I'd whole heartedly advise you to do so. I honestly feel like this might be the breaking point and it wouldn't surprise me if this turns ugly and DOs are told to "fend for themselves" from the ACGME. Honestly, I think they'd be well within their rights to do so if they chose to. I just hope I can get into residency in this upcoming match before they decide to go that route. Thanks AOA for screwing the students of today and of the future.

Well, we can hope that it won't affect DO's image to PDs. But chances are most PDs aren't going to want to be associated with students from an organization that spat in their face. Hell, I won't be surprised if this is the year American Foreign Medical Graduates get priority to DOs.

 

[NeuroLAX]

Does anyone have an idea as to the meaning of this excerpt? It is from the June 14, 2013 letter:

"Creation of a single accreditation system would require the ACGME to incorporate accreditation of osteopathic neuromusculoskeletal education, as well as create a voluntary mechanism for specialty programs to achieve recognition for education of residents in osteopathic principles."

 

[thepoopologist]

They claimed to give them until 2018 or 2020 to clean up their act and improve to some standard.

A lot of what I sensed during my 4th year student rotations was this undercurrent of worry about meeting those standards. Well of course they were worried, because meeting those standards would've required effort.

 

[SoulinNeed]

Well, we can hope that it won't affect DO's image to PDs. But chances are most PDs aren't going to want to be associated with students from an organization that spat in their face. Hell, I won't be surprised if this is the year American Foreign Medical Graduates get priority to DOs.

I wouldn't be surprised if most PD's never even know about this or even knew that a proposed merger was being planned, lol.

In the end, I don't think a merger benefits DO students. One of the appeals in going DO is that DO's have a slew of residencies just for them, a good chunk of which are in appealing specialties. If this merger had gone through that wouldn't have been the case anymore. At the same time, DO's are matching into ACGME positions at higher match rates every year. Things are going fine for DO's.

 

[thepoopologist]

So they want to keep open sub-par programs? Sadly, I'm pretty sure you are right and that's at least part of it. Lol... AOA fighting to NOT have to make their programs better and live up to the standards that EVERYONE else has to live up to... just so they can keep a few more programs open and make a little more money. This is disgusting.

While I don't think the motivation to make money is limited to them, I do think it navigates AOA post-graduate education more than the ACGME's.

 

[thepoopologist]

I wouldn't be surprised if most PD's never even know about this or even knew that a proposed merger was being planned, lol.

In the end, I don't think a merger benefits DO students. One of the appeals in going DO is that DO's have a slew of residencies just for them, a good chunk of which are in appealing specialties. If this merger had gone through that wouldn't have been the case anymore. At the same time, DO's are matching into ACGME positions at higher match rates every year. Things are going fine for DO's.

Let's not forget the reason the unified accreditation was proposed in the first place. The ACGME had them by the balls.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Let's not forget the reason the unified accreditation was proposed in the first place. The ACGME had them by the balls.

They still do, and the ACGME could very easily replace DOs with Carib students from the big 4. And then what?

 

[QuackaDO]

They still do, and the ACGME could very easily replace DOs with Carib students from the big 4. And then what?

And then we're all F**ked. Good God the AOA is dumber than I thought... spitting in the ACGMEs face and then lying about it.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

And then we're all F**ked. Good God the AOA is dumber than I thought... spitting in the ACGMEs face and then lying about it.

Nah, the AOA is smart. They closed a door and increased profits and loyalty by breeding a flock that will come to dislike and be unable to get into the ACGME and through such stronger DOs through attending DO residencies. I mean if 2,000-3,000 4th years don't get into a residency that's the fault of the privileged acgme, not the defenders of osteopathy.

 

[SoulinNeed]

They still do, and the ACGME could very easily replace DOs with Carib students from the big 4. And then what?

Come on, people, lol. Relax, yourselves. The ACGME is not going to force PD's to start taking Carib grads over DO grads.

Some of you are losing it. Relax.

 

[Dmr6186]

I don't think the ACGME will screw DO students/residents simply because of a few people in charge of the AOA. These two parts give me hope for the future:

ACGME will proceed with keeping its promise to the American Public and the profession, to implement The Next Accreditation System.

and

We have been impressed with the commitment to education, and the desire to achieve educational quality, of our colleagues in Osteopathic Medicine.

I believe the ACGME knows that DO students everywhere want improvement, and I don't think the ACGME will give up in trying to achieve that. So while it sucks now, don't lose all hope as a prospective/future/current DO student.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Come on, people, lol. Relax, yourselves. The ACGME is not going to force PD's to start taking Carib grads over DO grads.

Some of you are losing it. Relax.

No, but a lot of PDs don't want DOs simply because they are DOs. Add in a big black mark on every DOs forehead and we worsen the situation. Regardless, who knows what will happen. But it is a frightening situation ( More for DO students than anyone).

I don't think the ACGME will screw DO students/residents simply because of a few *****s in charge of the AOA. These two parts give me hope for the future: ACGME will proceed with keeping its promise
to the American Public and the profession, to implement The Next Accreditation
System.

and

We have been impressed with the commitment to education, and the desire to
achieve educational quality, of our colleagues in Osteopathic Medicine.

I believe the ACGME knows that DO students everywhere want improvement, and I don't think they will give up in trying to achieve that.

Yes, but PDs may have different opinions on the matter. PDs may for all we know now be ultra offended by this whole fiasco.

 

[Dmr6186]

Yes, but PDs may have different opinions on the matter. PDs may for all we know now be ultra offended by this whole fiasco.

Maybe, maybe not. We don't know and can't worry ourselves with speculation. But we do know the big wigs of the ACGME are not turning their backs to the DO community in this public statement, and actually complimented them saying good things about them. They didn't need to say that, but they did. They only reamed those in charge of the AOA, not DOs as a whole.

Edit: I do believe the ACGME is well aware that the part does not represent the whole. We have to wait and see what happens (again :/).

 

[SoulinNeed]

No, but a lot of PDs don't want DOs simply because they are DOs. Add in a big black mark on every DOs forehead and we worsen the situation. Regardless, who knows what will happen. But it is a frightening situation ( More for DO students than anyone).

You're making way too many assumptions here. If the ACGME was really pushing for the closure of AOA programs that don't meet standards, then that hurts DO's, because they have less positions to apply for.

In the end, a merger wouldn't have changed how PD's view DO's. DO's are still DO's, and MD's are still MD's. A PD who was accepting DO's yesterday won't stop now just because some theoretical merger that was supposed to take place in 2018-2020 is not going to happen now.

 

[Oo Cipher oO]

They still do, and the ACGME could very easily replace DOs with Carib students from the big 4. And then what?

We are in the same position we have always been. Carry on as usual. Work hard and match ACGME if you want. Everything is going to be ok.

 

[Banned]

ooooohhh AOA got caught lion

"The next
day, Dr. Buser announced this to the AOA membership, with the implication that
ACGME had unilaterally "imposed" an MOU of its own making upon the osteopathic
community, and with the statement that, from
the perspectives of AOA and AACOM,
the MOU does not include adequate recognition of the core principles of osteopathy
and does not adequately protect the distinctiveness of osteopathic GME."

well, i guess that's that

 

[Bacchus]

While I don't think the motivation to make money is limited to them, I do think it navigates AOA post-graduate education more than the ACGME's.

I can believe this in some specialties over others. At the dually accredited FM programs I was at this was a non-issue. I'm essentially doing an ACGME program (all the same requirements/testing/restrictions) but appeasing the AOA by doing their inservice and mandatory OMM stuff. It could be more "ideal" (no OMM ) but I can live with this.

 

[preDoGuy24]

They still do, and the ACGME could very easily replace DOs with Carib students from the big 4. And then what?

This is the reason they supposedly started the measure, to eliminate foreign medical grads with sub par training . I think this will have zero backlash from program directors towards qualified do candidates, just sucks for a lot of people that one match would have benefited immensely. If you decide to hold out and try MD make sure your stats hold up and can make that a reality, every year you take off is a loss in salary.

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[Dharma]

This is the reason they supposedly started the measure, to eliminate foreign medical grads with sub par training . I think this will have zero backlash from program directors towards qualified do candidates, just sucks for a lot of people that one match would have benefited immensely. If you decide to hold out and try MD make sure your stats hold up and can make that a reality, every year you take off is a loss in salary.

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I don't think there will be backlash from PDs. But I do think that if an individual with a realistic chance has the inkling to go MD, they should exhaust all possibilities before applying DO.

I wonder how many potential DO students keeping up with the current events are reconsidering the Big 4.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I don't think there will be backlash from PDs. But I do think that if an individual with a realistic chance has the inkling to go MD, they should exhaust all possibilities before applying DO.

I wonder how many potential DO students keeping up with the current events are reconsidering the Big 4.

I kinda wish this had happened maybe a year ago. That way I would have honestly just spent an entire year studying for the mcat and gone MD. Oh well, 2-3k down the drain.

 

[Trogghunter]

You(all) should focus on getting into a med school before you get all butt-hurt from something that doesn't apply to you yet and something that you have no voice in. Match statistics are good for DO students in both matches, and if you want an allo ROADs so badly then go US MD because you sure won't get it from the islands, if you match anywhere.

You think that PDs across the country were tuned into the press release like it was the moon landing? No, and currently no program that previously took comlex scores has reversed their stance.


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[preDoGuy24]

I kinda wish this had happened maybe a year ago. That way I would have honestly just spent an entire year studying for the mcat and gone MD. Oh well, 2-3k down the drain.

2-3k is chump change compared to attending salary lost per year you take chasing MD schools if you don't have the stats...You are getting way overly excited about these measures as a pre-med, it sucks but is not doomsday like you seem to have in your head/are spilling on these boards...Chill. The ACGME has taken with open arms the best and brightest of the Osteopathic schools, and the AMA has a sh&t ton of DO's as voting members-nothing is going to change with that, i.e. DOs will still be going to ACGME residencies in droves (60%+)


As it stands right now there has been ZERO CHANGES compared to 1-30 years ago-this is inconvenient for us Medical students who were looking forward to a single match but in no way will preclude you from MD programs if thats what you want. I am putting my money on a merger happening in the next 2 years, until then the process will go forward DOs will not be able to apply to fellowships from non-acgme programs and LIFE WILL GO ON.

 

[Dharma]

2-3k is chump change compared to attending salary lost per year you take chasing MD schools if you don't have the stats...You are getting way overly excited about these measures as a pre-med, it sucks but is not doomsday like you seem to have in your head/are spilling on these boards...Chill. The ACGME has taken with open arms the best and brightest of the Osteopathic schools, and the AMA has a sh&t ton of DO's as voting members-nothing is going to change with that, i.e. DOs will still be going to ACGME residencies in droves (60%+)


As it stands right now there has been ZERO CHANGES compared to 1-30 years ago-this is inconvenient for us Medical students who were looking forward to a single match but in no way will preclude you from MD programs if thats what you want. I am putting my money on a merger happening in the next 2 years, until then the process will go forward DOs will not be able to apply to fellowships from non-acgme programs and LIFE WILL GO ON.

IF you don't have the stats. But if you have a shot, why not? The lost salary argument only holds if you're a long shot.

I doubt we will see a merger until a third party steps in this, which I wouldn't be surprised when it happens considering it's public money on the table.

 

[preDoGuy24]

IF you don't have the stats. But if you have a shot, why not? The lost salary argument only holds if you're a long shot.

I doubt we will see a merger until a third party steps in this, which I wouldn't be surprised when it happens considering it's public money on the table.

My point was if you are already going the DO route-this decision by the AOA should not cause you to take a year off and lose 250k+. I disagree with it, BUT all that it has done so far is keep things to the same (how the AOA would like it). Even when the acgme passes the changes to exclude people from fellowships it will not have as big of an effect as people are making it out to. I think the issue with me is just the inconveniences of two matches still being perpetuated, if I do anything besides a surgical subspecialty I was planning on ACGME before even entering school so I don't view this as the end of days like some folks on here have.

 

[Dharma]

My point was if you are already going the DO route-this decision by the AOA should not cause you to take a year off and lose 250k+. I disagree with it, BUT all that it has done so far is keep things to the same (how the AOA would like it). Even when the acgme passes the changes to exclude people from fellowships it will not have as big of an effect as people are making it out to. I think the issue with me is just the inconveniences of two matches still being perpetuated, if I do anything besides a surgical subspecialty I was planning on ACGME before even entering school so I don't view this as the end of days like some folks on here have.

I totally agree with you; those on course, need to keep trudging forward and not let this be such a buzzkill that it takes you out of the game (or costs a boatload of potential income). I don't think it's a huge issue in terms of our potential for success. Disappointing to see how the AOA has seemingly handled the situation thus far though.

If things stay the same, then that's ok. But they may not exactly be same in terms of internship and fellowships. Still have to deal with the 4 crazy states intern year requirement though. Speaking of which, what is the current status regarding the whole Resolution 42 thing? I shudder at the thought of possibly having to complete an extra year of residency someday if I chose to live in one of the 4 (or is it 5?).

 

[playaodamonth]

Jeeze. I've never seen so many neurotic and paranoid behavior in one thread before... chill people, the ACGME isn't some conniving, grudge holding organization that will "ban all DOs from their residencies or replace them all with IMGs". All this talk reminds me of "Obama being the end of America as we know it" and 12/21/12 and Y2K being armageddon. Till we know for sure what will happen, stop freaking out so much.

 

[QuackaDO]

Jeeze. I've never seen so many neurotic and paranoid behavior in one thread before... chill people, the ACGME isn't some conniving, grudge holding organization that will "ban all DOs from their residencies or replace them all with IMGs". All this talk reminds me of "Obama being the end of America as we know it" and 12/21/12 and Y2K being armageddon. Till we know for sure what will happen, stop freaking out so much.

Wait..... he hasn't been??

 

[NurWollen]

wait..... He hasn't been??

 

[DrMaximus]

Jeeze. I've never seen so many neurotic and paranoid behavior in one thread before... chill people, the ACGME isn't some conniving, grudge holding organization that will "ban all DOs from their residencies or replace them all with IMGs". All this talk reminds me of "Obama being the end of America as we know it" and 12/21/12 and Y2K being armageddon. Till we know for sure what will happen, stop freaking out so much.

The current state of the osteopathic section of SDN...

 

[Bacchus]

I think there's good reason to be paranoid. This just confirms our interest isn't at the heart of AACOM or the AOA.

 

[YiSheng]

The current state of the osteopathic section of SDN...

image saved

 

[IMDoc607]

Family friend is a member of the house of delegates in teAOA. He says teAOA needs the acgme and this merger will happen. It will just take time. They are also going to start restricting newer schools he said.

 

[Dr Yiot]

wow, a lot of freak out here. I think that the AOA has really made itself look terrible in this whole situation. I do worry tho, for those of you saying that only fellowship opportunities will be the only door shut if you go thru an AOA residency. Once that goes through and the osteopathic profession has to follow, then what other rules will the ACGME put through in the future that we as a whole would have to abide by? im worried of what would come next. I really think that an outside party needs to be called in to fix this for everyone

oh and PD's possibly wanting to take IMG over DO's? cmon, this is rediculous. its like taking a student from a scumbag for profit diploma mill vs taking one from a respectable educational institution that just happens to be stubborn as **** in their ways. Theres no way this would even compare. the PD takes the DO hands down, better education, more standards etc.

 

[Dr Yiot]

exactly its gonna happen, the AOA will go down in flames but its gonna happen. they should have just done this now to save themselves the embarrassment. Not its gonna get to a point where they will have no choice eventually and they will regret all the "distinctiveness" BS they fed us. the ACGME will eventually engulf the AOA, that is my prediction. there will be one match eventually, maybe not soon but there will be. and the AOA will eventually lose

 

[NurWollen]

exactly its gonna happen, the AOA will go down in flames but its gonna happen. they should have just done this now to save themselves the embarrassment. Not its gonna get to a point where they will have no choice eventually and they will regret all the "distinctiveness" BS they fed us. the ACGME will eventually engulf the AOA, that is my prediction. there will be one match eventually, maybe not soon but there will be. and the AOA will eventually lose

I just hope that when all of the above is said and done, we don't get left hanging out to dry.

 

[user3]

Family friend is a member of the house of delegates in teAOA. He says teAOA needs the acgme and this merger will happen. It will just take time. They are also going to start restricting newer schools he said.

Do you think liberty's school will still open?

 

[Dharma]

wow, a lot of freak out here. I think that the AOA has really made itself look terrible in this whole situation. I do worry tho, for those of you saying that only fellowship opportunities will be the only door shut if you go thru an AOA residency. Once that goes through and the osteopathic profession has to follow, then what other rules will the ACGME put through in the future that we as a whole would have to abide by? im worried of what would come next. I really think that an outside party needs to be called in to fix this for everyone

oh and PD's possibly wanting to take IMG over DO's? cmon, this is rediculous. its like taking a student from a scumbag for profit diploma mill vs taking one from a respectable educational institution that just happens to be stubborn as **** in their ways. Theres no way this would even compare. the PD takes the DO hands down, better education, more standards etc.

Definitely time for a 3rd party to step in. Write you local and state representatives folks!!! Send the same letter to media outlets. And it's not so much about a failed merger, but rather a discrepancy in standards (and quality) of training between the two systems, both of which are funded mostly by tax payers' money.

 

[NurWollen]

Definitely time for a 3rd party to step in. Write you local and state representatives folks!!! Send the same letter to media outlets. And it's not so much about a failed merger, but rather a discrepancy in standards (and quality) of training between the two systems, both of which are funded mostly by tax payers' money.

Careful what you wish for.