ACGME response to failed merger

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Dharma said:
For the truth to be seen and acknowledged. The People's money = The People's right to know.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with you, I just don't trust the government not to mess everything up. I mean, what if they just decided to defund osteopathic GME altogether?
 
NurWollen said:
I don't disagree with you, I just don't trust the government not to mess everything up. would be the right one. I mean, what if they just decided to defund osteopathic GME altogether?
Click to expand...

I hear you on the trust issue. I tend to sit on the less-government-is-better-government side of the aisle myself. (That's right! NOT a democrat folks!). As a taxpayer, I like to see how my money is being spent (although this is obviously not always such a transparent visual).
 
NurWollen said:
I don't disagree with you, I just don't trust the government not to mess everything up. I mean, what if they just decided to defund osteopathic GME altogether?
Click to expand...

Because the country is in desperate need of physicians
 
skyw2.jpg
 
Dharma said:
I totally agree with you; those on course, need to keep trudging forward and not let this be such a buzzkill that it takes you out of the game (or costs a boatload of potential income). I don't think it's a huge issue in terms of our potential for success. Disappointing to see how the AOA has seemingly handled the situation thus far though.

If things stay the same, then that's ok. But they may not exactly be same in terms of internship and fellowships. Still have to deal with the 4 crazy states intern year requirement though. Speaking of which, what is the current status regarding the whole Resolution 42 thing? I shudder at the thought of possibly having to complete an extra year of residency someday if I chose to live in one of the 4 (or is it 5?).
Click to expand...

Which states?
 
Realistically no one what's to go to Oklahoma lol

Why does the AOA hate us? Why are we getting all this extra pressure
....looking at the md side it's smooth sailing

if DOs wanted to attracted the MD caliber students they should make some advantages

At the current state there is NO. Reason why anyone should go DO

Hearing more depressing news after more

how many more straws on the camels back AOA ?
 
NeuroLAX said:
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

You're wrong.
Click to expand...

No they're not.....there's no reason to go DO over MD. They do the same thing and make the same money. What's the point in taking the harder route?

Please don't say OMM :laugh:
 
IMDoc607 said:
No they're not.....there's no reason to go DO over MD. They do the same thing and make the same money. What's the point in taking the harder route?

Please don't say OMM :laugh:
Click to expand...

I can assure you that OMM was never on the list of reasons why I applied DO.

I agree your statements. However, the post I quoted made no mention of going DO over MD when the option exists. That person simply said there is no reason why anyone should go DO. I disagree.
 
NeuroLAX said:
I can assure you that OMM was never on the list of reasons why I applied DO.

I agree your statements. However, the post I quoted made no mention of going DO over MD when the option exists. That person simply said there is no reason why anyone should go DO. I disagree.
Click to expand...

I agree with you then.
 
IMDoc607 said:
No they're not.....there's no reason to go DO over MD. They do the same thing and make the same money. What's the point in taking the harder route?

Please don't say OMM :laugh:
Click to expand...



Because DO is much more of an action driven word than MD. Actually, MD isn't even a word at all.

/Got nuthin.
//Also assuming you mean US MD vs DO... because DO>>>SGU.
 
Siggy said:
Because DO is much more of an action driven word than MD. Actually, MD isn't even a word at all.

/Got nuthin.
//Also assuming you mean US MD vs DO... because DO>>>SGU.
Click to expand...

Yes I mean US MD
 
IMDoc607 said:
Family friend is a member of the house of delegates in teAOA. He says teAOA needs the acgme and this merger will happen. It will just take time. They are also going to start restricting newer schools he said.
Click to expand...

Hope this is true. What is the status with fellowships though?
 
So when should we expect an AOA response to the ACGME response?
 
IMDoc607 said:
Family friend is a member of the house of delegates in teAOA. He says teAOA needs the acgme and this merger will happen. It will just take time. They are also going to start restricting newer schools he said.
Click to expand...

What's a teAOA and why do they NEED ACGME?
 
So I just found this... http://www.coloradodo.org/About Us_files/FAQs About the AOA-ACGME.pdf

Is this true... "Currently, there are 11,025 AOA training positions and more than 4,000 DO graduates each year. Osteopathic programs alone could not support the demand to train more DOs and help fill the upcoming physician shortage."

Essentially, all DO students should be fine without the ACGME right?
 
tinylilron said:
So I just found this... http://www.coloradodo.org/About Us_files/FAQs About the AOA-ACGME.pdf

Is this true... "Currently, there are 11,025 AOA training positions and more than 4,000 DO graduates each year. Osteopathic programs alone could not support the demand to train more DOs and help fill the upcoming physician shortage."

Essentially, all DO students should be fine without the ACGME right?
Click to expand...

The number I've heard is 2,900 first year spots are available through the AOA for 4,900 DO graduates. So no, without the ACGME we would pretty much be screwed.
 
DrBowtie said:
11k total positions each year at all levels, not PGY1 only.
Click to expand...

Oh so should we divide that number by 3 or 4 to get the real PGY1 DO estimate? Also, what is it about DO residencies that have the ACGME concerned? What are DO students lacking in their education? Don't DO and MDs have essentially the same curriculum and have to do the same rotations? I am trying to find information on this before I decide on my medical education. Also, I noticed that some residencies require you go to a LCME accredited school. For instance, Children's National Medical Center. :-( Whats up with that? Are their a lot of residencies that do that?

I am interested in Pediatrics, Family Medicine and Neurology at this time... I was looking into Pediatric Neurology too...

I am applying to both MD and DO schools this year but my MCATs are not that great... :-( I am also a 27 y/o female so I would rather not have to wait another year to start medical school but I want to make the best choice for my education as well.
 
tinylilron said:
Oh so should we divide that number by 3 or 4 to get the real PGY1 DO estimate? Also, what is it about DO residencies that have the ACGME concerned? What are DO students lacking in their education? Don't DO and MDs have essentially the same curriculum and have to do the same rotations? I am trying to find information on this before I decide on my medical education. Also, I noticed that some residencies require you go to a LCME accredited school. For instance, Children's National Medical Center. :-( Whats up with that? Are their a lot of residencies that do that?

I am interested in Pediatrics, Family Medicine and Neurology at this time... I was looking into Pediatric Neurology too...

I am applying to both MD and DO schools this year but my MCATs are not that great... :-( I am also a 27 y/o female so I would rather not have to wait another year to start medical school but I want to make the best choice for my education as well.
Click to expand...

Those are arguably the 3 least competitive fields in medicine. You should be able to match ACGME in any of those fields if you attend either DO or MD.

Also, be careful with how much personal information you are disclosing on SDN as admission committees are familiar with this website.
 
SurgeDO said:
Those are arguably the 3 least competitive fields in medicine. You should be able to match ACGME in any of those fields if you attend either DO or MD.

Also, be careful with how much personal information you are disclosing on SDN as admission committees are familiar with this website.
Click to expand...

Thanks! For the warning. I hope nothing that I have said on SDN will make the adcoms have a negative view of me. I do not think that I have said anything controversial or negative. I have a lot of questions and I am just a pre-med trying to figure it all out.

Anyways, can anyone direct me to something that would give me a better understanding on how the DO school and MD school curriculum vary? I know OMM is a big one but DO schools say that they cover everything else that a normal MD school would. Also, are the required clinical rotations the same other than that all MD clinical rotations are done in an academic hospital while DO clinical rotations are done in community hospitals? And how do the residencies compare? What was ACGME's issue with AOA residencies?

I ask this because I saw some residencies require applicants to have graduated from an LCME accredited school which excludes DO schools. Thus, I am under the impression that there may be more differences that just OMM.

Thank you so much all your help.
 
Last edited:
NeuroLAX said:
Does anyone have an idea as to the meaning of this excerpt? It is from the June 14, 2013 letter:

"Creation of a single accreditation system would require the ACGME to incorporate accreditation of osteopathic neuromusculoskeletal education, as well as create a voluntary mechanism for specialty programs to achieve recognition for education of residents in osteopathic principles."
Click to expand...
Did I miss the post where this question was addressed? Because, yeah, kind of a big issue imo: the respective incorporation of OMM.
 
tinylilron said:
Thanks! For the warning. I hope nothing that I have said on SDN will make the adcoms have a negative view of me. I do not think that I have said anything controversial or negative. I have a lot of questions and I am just a pre-med trying to figure it all out.

Anyways, can anyone direct me to something that would give me a better understanding on how the DO school and MD school curriculum vary? I know OMM is a big one but DO schools say that they cover everything else that a normal MD school would. Also, are the required clinical rotations the same other than that all MD clinical rotations are done in an academic hospital while DO clinical rotations are done in community hospitals? And how do the residencies compare? What was ACGME's issue with AOA residencies?

I ask this because I saw some residencies require applicants to have graduated from an LCME accredited school which excludes DO schools. Thus, I am under the impression that there may be more differences that just OMM.

Thank you so much all your help.
Click to expand...
No one is going to answer your questions as the answers are controversial. Just think of the ones that outwardly state, you must have graduated from LCME as saving you some money on your residency applications should you go DO. There is your black and white DO bias (they except FMGs fwiw).
 
DrBowtie said:
No one is going to answer your questions as the answers are controversial. Just think of the ones that outwardly state, you must have graduated from LCME as saving you some money on your residency applications should you go DO. There is your black and white DO bias (they except FMGs fwiw).
Click to expand...

Not that controversial. A simple search should garner enough info on the subject. No one is going to answer because it's been discussed ad nauseum.

As for LCME bid, Maybe tinylilron can share the programs she is referring to. If I'm not mistaken, there are very few programs that will not consider DO grads, although more than a few where DOs have struggled to break in to.
 
Dharma said:
Not that controversial. A simple search should garner enough info on the subject. No one is going to answer because it's been discussed ad nauseum.

As for LCME bid, Maybe tinylilron can share the programs she is referring to. If I'm not mistaken, there are very few programs that will not consider DO grads, although more than a few where DOs have struggled to break in to.
Click to expand...
She was referring to Children's National Medical Center.

But in general, it shouldn't be shocking that large academic hospitals, prefer those students who also trained in large academic hospitals and who have letters of recs from important people at large academic hospitals.

But yes, the perceived quality of COCA rotations and AOA residencies ad nauseum.
 
YJdYCsc.gif

So close...

The real party is going to be when the Federation of State Medical Boards get's together next. The MD and DO reps from every state in the US will get together all at once. I'd pay money to be there.
 
You could have a girlfriend that's great but comes with a lot of drama and past baggage or you could choose to date someone without all of that crap that you may be better off with in the long run. Most Program Directors think along the same lines and I'd have to think that pre-med students would too when they choose which continent they'll spend their first two years at.

You spend the first 2 years of DO school incorporating OMM into a few hours of the week where you're either palpating some non-existent structures, or having a nod, nod, wink, wink practical exam that everyone that shows up for it passes. The rest of your career, starting with clinicals, will be spent giving lip service to OMM and never, ever including it in any chart you work on. I don't know anyone that did, but that could just be my experience.

I definitely think that the decision just became a lot clearer between going to SGU or DO. Less so for the other 3 island medical schools.
 
Last edited:
The AOA doesn't even respect DO graduates to have enough residency spots for the entire graduating class.
 
Dmr6186 said:
Maybe, maybe not. We don't know and can't worry ourselves with speculation. But we do know the big wigs of the ACGME are not turning their backs to the DO community in this public statement, and actually complimented them saying good things about them. They didn't need to say that, but they did. They only reamed those in charge of the AOA, not DOs as a whole.

Edit: I do believe the ACGME is well aware that the part does not represent the whole. We have to wait and see what happens (again :/).
Click to expand...

Wow somebody really fell for the politispeak.
 
Arkangeloid said:
Are DO residency spots funded by the AOA or the government?
Click to expand...

DrBowtie said:
Are new schools opened by COCA (AOA) or the government?
Click to expand...

DrBowtie, what's your point here? ACGME residencies are federally funded but the government doesn't open the schools. I'm probably missing what you're getting at.

I'm curious if AOA residencies are funded in the same way as ACGME residencies as well.
 
was this the whole thing that said DO's will be unable to apply for/join MD fellowships unless they underwent an MD residency first? not trolling, i just don't remember what is what nowadays.
 
NurWollen said:
You cried when you got the email announcing the merger was off or when you got the email regarding the ACGME response?
Click to expand...

I missed the initial announcement that it was off. I got a message from my friend on the inside (As well as the ACGME official response as a pdf attachment) saying how "unreasonable and two faced" the AOA had been about the whole thing.
 
CityLights said:
DrBowtie, what's your point here? ACGME residencies are federally funded but the government doesn't open the schools. I'm probably missing what you're getting at.

I'm curious if AOA residencies are funded in the same way as ACGME residencies as well.
Click to expand...
The response as I interpreted it was it the governments fault due to funding that there wasn't enough DO residency spots for their graduates.

The government supply is fixed, but the AOA controls the class sizes and "demand". They have almost out kicked there coverage so to speak.
 
DocEspana said:
I missed the initial announcement that it was off. I got a message from my friend on the inside (As well as the ACGME official response as a pdf attachment) saying how "unreasonable and two faced" the AOA had been about the whole thing.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. I know you've been quite involved in medical politics on the so I was curious as to what bothered you the most about the whole situation. Aside from the AOA internship/residency--> ACGME residency/fellowship issues that started the merger talks in the first place, what if any consequences to you foresee for current DO students? I try to be optimistic and stuff, and downplay any worry, but like a lot of us I'm hoping the ACGME doesn't take its frustration with the AOA out on individual DOs and DO students.
 
I wonder if PDs even care about this, or will care about this when they pick/rank their next set of interns. My guess is no, unless that PD was actually involved in the talks directly.

Could unintentionally turn into a lucky app cycle for IMGs.
 
CDI said:
I wonder if PDs even care about this, or will care about this when they pick/rank their next set of interns. My guess is no, unless that PD was actually involved in the talks directly.

Could unintentionally turn into a lucky app cycle for IMGs.
Click to expand...

That's what I am hoping.
 
CDI said:
I wonder if PDs even care about this, or will care about this when they pick/rank their next set of interns. My guess is no, unless that PD was actually involved in the talks directly.

Could unintentionally turn into a lucky app cycle for IMGs.
Click to expand...

In all reality its probably going to be no different for DOs, and as with every year, it will be harder for IMGs
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Mr.Smile12
ICYMI: AOA response to "The View"
Replies
2
Views
2K
DarkHorizon
D
M
Failed Gross Anatony
Replies
5
Views
801
marie909
M
D
Passed STEP 1 but Failed Level 1
Replies
6
Views
5K
TragicalDrFaust
TragicalDrFaust
J
FAILED COMLEX 2 CE Failed
Replies
11
Views
3K
Mad Jack
Mad Jack
T
Failed Step. Sitting for COMLEX soon. How to go about not reporting Step?
Replies
14
Views
4K
Ho0v-man
Ho0v-man
Top