Active Shooter Policies and Patient Abandonment

[PTPoeny]

When I searched the last thread on this topic was quite old. I recently had to go through active shooter training from my hospital and it was the standard run-hide-fight. I am curious if anyone here knows of any court cases regarding patient abandonment during an active shooter with resulting malpractice or criminal charges? Likely stickier, what about those times the hospital calls a lockdown but it turns out later not to be an active shooter event?

Love to hear anyone's thoughts.

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[Crayola227]

When I searched the last thread on this topic was quite old. I recently had to go through active shooter training from my hospital and it was the standard run-hide-fight. I am curious if anyone here knows of any court cases regarding patient abandonment during an active shooter with resulting malpractice or criminal charges? Likely stickier, what about those times the hospital calls a lockdown but it turns out later not to be an active shooter event?

Love to hear anyone's thoughts.

I can't imagine it would go anywhere. If anything, if you are following hospital policy in such a situation what if any case that could be made, I would think would be against the hospital.

There is nothing in the Oath of Geneva, the Hippocratic Oath, any law or employment contract, that says you cannot run-hide-fight for your life when you're told someone is about to spray death in all directions.

I get that hospital policies and health care
and lawsuits frequently defy common sense, but honestly this question seems just a little silly.

I think if it could be demonstrated you had reason not to take the threat seriously a case *might* be made, but that would be a fine needle to thread.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I can't imagine it would go anywhere. If anything, if you are following hospital policy in such a situation what if any case that could be made, I would think would be against the hospital.

There is nothing in the Oath of Geneva, the Hippocratic Oath, any law or employment contract, that says you cannot run-hide-fight for your life when you're told someone is about to spray death in all directions.

I get that hospital policies and health care
and lawsuits frequently defy common sense, but honestly this question seems just a little silly.

I think if it could be demonstrated you had reason not to take the threat seriously a case *might* be made, but that would be a fine needle to thread.

Better sued than dead

 

[PTPoeny]

Better sued than dead

I completely agree and am definitely plan to run. I was just wondering if the question has been answered regarding any legal risk.

Now, a peds specific question. Should we carry any babies out? Unlike a fire I think the patients are safer where they are so I wouldn't, but it crossed my mind. Most of the ones I have heard about the shooter wants to target staff.

 

[Crayola227]

I completely agree and am definitely plan to run. I was just wondering if the question has been answered regarding any legal risk.

Now, a peds specific question. Should we carry any babies out? Unlike a fire I think the patients are safer where they are so I wouldn't, but it crossed my mind. Most of the ones I have heard about the shooter wants to target staff.

Oh Jesus now yes your question makes a little more sense.

More important than liability here, is how can you best keep yourself and the children safe? That is really the question. I would say if you have time or it's possible, get them in the bath tub in the bathroom if there is such a thing in the room and they can be moved?

Even if a shooter is going to go room to room or random rooms, not sure they're going to make a point of going into the bathroom too. It also is more likely to cut off their escape.

 

[Mad Jack]

I completely agree and am definitely plan to run. I was just wondering if the question has been answered regarding any legal risk.

Now, a peds specific question. Should we carry any babies out? Unlike a fire I think the patients are safer where they are so I wouldn't, but it crossed my mind. Most of the ones I have heard about the shooter wants to target staff.

Honestly your best option if you're that concerned about this situation is learning how to secure a door and getting the proper equipment to do so if it isn't available. A simple belt can do the trick with many bathroom doors in hospitals that have pneumatic hinge systems in place, but there are plenty of other ways to secure a door if you don't have one available. Most likely staff are going to be the targets, so bringing a child along may just put them at risk

 

[Smurfette]

I completely agree and am definitely plan to run. I was just wondering if the question has been answered regarding any legal risk.

Now, a peds specific question. Should we carry any babies out? Unlike a fire I think the patients are safer where they are so I wouldn't, but it crossed my mind. Most of the ones I have heard about the shooter wants to target staff.

No, not unless you can guarantee safety. Disclaimer: not a pediatrician.

I would think a baby would be more likely to get injured being carried out by a panicked adult running from a shooter (either due to being shot or dropped/crushed/etc.) than to be directly shot in the nursery. Also, you're going to be slower getting out of the building or hiding if you have a baby with you. And if the baby cries, it gives away your hiding spot. How would one decide which babies get prioritized to be carried out and which stay behind? One would hope the shooter is not looking to just target the nursery. Hopefully your hospital has a locked peds floor that requires badge access (don't most these days?) or a single access point that auto-locks during after hours and in a lockdown situation.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

In the vast majority of cases, your best strategy is to secure the room / area you're in. If you secure the area, both you and the patients remain relatively safe. Would also be reasonable to secure the area for the patients, and then evacuate yourself.

I was present during an active shooter hospital event. One important lesson learned is managing the OR's. Security locked that down, ensured everyone inside they would be safe, so that ongoing procedures could continue. But there was no way to get blood to the OR, or specimens out. They needed to function with what they had on hand.

 

[RangerBob]

Hospital beds make great barriers (just push it against the door and lock the wheels—if the bed is sideways you may net even need to do that). And all hospital doors are fire doors, so an active shooter won't be able to break them down in a meaningful amount of time. If the door has a window just remember to cover that somehow.

Most active shooters are taken down by police (or take themselves down) within a few minutes. No active shooter is going to spend even a minute trying to break down into a barricaded spot unless they are specifically targeting someone that was in that spot.

Still, it’s a sad commentary on modern life that these thoughts even occur to us at all.

 

[forchinet121]

When I searched the last thread on this topic was quite old. I recently had to go through active shooter training from my hospital and it was the standard run-hide-fight. I am curious if anyone here knows of any court cases regarding patient abandonment during an active shooter with resulting malpractice or criminal charges? Likely stickier, what about those times the hospital calls a lockdown but it turns out later not to be an active shooter event?

Love to hear anyone's thoughts.

This is kind of a pointless question to be honest. Let’s assume that the law says you have to use yourself as a human shield against an active shooter to protect your patients..are you gonna do that? What the law says on this topic is completely irrelevant, in other words it’s not going to change your course of action and as a result pointless to know.

 

[LucidSplash]

This is kind of a pointless question to be honest. Let’s assume that the law says you have to use yourself as a human shield against an active shooter to protect your patients..are you gonna do that? What the law says on this topic is completely irrelevant, in other words it’s not going to change your course of action and as a result pointless to know.

There are threads on here about far less interesting philosophical debates. In posting this opinion, you seem to have neglected to notice the majority of the content on SDN where people split hairs over 1 point differences is board scores or disagree about methods to grill meat.

 

[Tangerine123]

It's horrifying to be reading a thread like this.

I'm a US citizen that has never lived in the US (and not planning to). My brother however, moved to the US as a teacher. I remember he had some sort of drill or training. We then then told us (immediate family) about this, and how other teachers were talking about the need to bring guns into the schools, he started crying. He is now considering to leave the country because of this among many other social systemic issues.

I'm doing residency in Europe. At some point I read an american textbook chapter, written for residents, about how to create a human bond with your captor te avoid being executed.

Dystopic AF

I do hope it gets better, but I'm not that optimistic for now

 

[ThoracicGuy]

There are threads on here about far less interesting philosophical debates. In posting this opinion, you seem to have neglected to notice the majority of the content on SDN where people split hairs over 1 point differences is board scores or disagree about methods to grill meat.

At least we can all agree that chili does NOT have beans in it.

 

[LucidSplash]

At least we can all agree that chili does NOT have beans in it.

So the problem here is that I live in Texas but grew up in the northeast. I make great chili I’m told but Texans won’t call it that. 😂

 

[ThoracicGuy]

So the problem here is that I live in Texas but grew up in the northeast. I make great chili I’m told but Texans won’t call it that. 😂

Because that's not chili if you put beans in it. Thems the rules. Sorry.

 

[LucidSplash]

Because that's not chili if you put beans in it. Thems the rules. Sorry.

That’s fine. But you should really try my bean-meat-tomato stew sometime. 😂

 

[ThoracicGuy]

That’s fine. But you should really try my bean-meat-tomato stew sometime. 😂

Sure, just don't call it chili and it's all good!

 

[RangerBob]

At least we can all agree that chili does NOT have beans in it.

This is news to me.

 

[LucidSplash]

This is news to me.

Texans think they invented chili and in Texas chili does not have beans. They will not discuss it further.

You can still call it chili if it has beans in some other states.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Texans think they invented chili and in Texas chili does not have beans. They will not discuss it further.

You can still call it chili if it has beans in some other states.

You almost got it right.

Texans DID invent chili and it does not have beans.

You can not call it chili if it has beans.

Please listen to what I am saying.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

This is news to me.

 

[RangerBob]

Texans think they invented chili and in Texas chili does not have beans. They will not discuss it further.

You can still call it chili if it has beans in some other states.

I’m a Californian, and not much of a foodie, so I’ll probably keep calling it chili if it looks like chili.

I’ll have to ask my Texan friend here what he thinks. The topic has never come up

 

[LucidSplash]

I’m a Californian, and not much of a foodie, so I’ll probably keep calling it chili if it looks like chili.

I’ll have to ask my Texan friend here what he thinks. The topic has never come up

You need to be prepared for VERY. STRONG. OPINIONS. on the subject. On the level of politics and religion. See above. Tread carefully. 😂

 

[LucidSplash]

You almost got it right.

Texans DID invent chili and it does not have beans.

You can not call it chili if it has beans.

Please listen to what I am saying.

For fun, I always like to mostly agree with native Texans with just a slight twist. So I will grant you chili probably evolved along Texas-Mexico border towns.

I also like to cite this source from OKLAHOMA. Chili | The Encyclopedia of Oklahoma History and Culture

Yes, I know what I just did.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

History of Chili

There are just about as many theories of how and where chili originated as there are unique family chili recipes. But, it seems understandable that the original chili recipes would be devised where...

www.casichili.net

 

[HemeOncHopeful19]

I'm a US citizen that has never lived in the US (and not planning to).

Interesting. Do you file federal taxes?

Can you link me the text book?

 

[LucidSplash]

History of Chili

There are just about as many theories of how and where chili originated as there are unique family chili recipes. But, it seems understandable that the original chili recipes would be devised where...

www.casichili.net

I like this explanation of regional recipe variation the best:

To Bean or Not to Bean: The Chronicles of Texas Chili

Many would guess that chili originated in Mexico and came to Texas from their neighbors to the South. However, it is more likely that early 17th century Spanish settlers of the area (that is now San Antonio) made a hearty stew for their families, giving way to the food today known as chili. It...

txliving.com

 

[spidermitchel]

At least we can all agree that chili does NOT have beans in it.

Reported

 

[LucidSplash]

I will agree, however, that corn in chili is an abomination.

 

[dpmd]

You almost got it right.

Texans DID invent chili and it does not have beans.

You can not call it chili if it has beans.

Please listen to what I am saying.

Mexicans invented the dish and served beans with it. Texans bastardized that. I will stick with the original intent.

 

[Goro]

Because that's not chili if you put beans in it. Thems the rules. Sorry.

Have you ever seen Cincinnati chili? It has cinnamon, chocolate and cloves in it!!! And it's served over spaghetti!!! The blasphemy!

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Have you ever seen Cincinnati chili? It has cinnamon, chocolate and cloves in it!!! And it's served over spaghetti!!! The blasphemy!

That vile spawn of Satan should not be allowed to exist. Nuke it from orbit, its the only way to be sure.

 

[LucidSplash]

Have you ever seen Cincinnati chili? It has cinnamon, chocolate and cloves in it!!! And it's served over spaghetti!!! The blasphemy!

It’s like a really bad attempt at a mole.

 

[HemeOncHopeful19]

That vile spawn of Satan should not be allowed to exist. Nuke it from orbit, its the only way to be sure.

Strap it to the tip of a rocket with all the pizzas that have pineapple and send them straight into the center of the Sun.