Actual US-IMG match data and future prospects

[the argus]

There's a lot of misinformation on this topic on SDN. Most of it originates from a handful of biased, untruthful individuals who consistently pass on nonsensical personal opinion as fact. This drivel then gets propagated and gradually becomes accepted as true, even though it has no basis in reality. One of these bull****ters loves to say in a derogatory way, "cue Argus saying 'but, but, NRMP...'" because he must actually think it's a bad thing to back up assertions with, you know, data. Anyway, I've posted this info in many different threads, but figured I would put it in a single place.

And as always, this is not meant to try and convince people to go to the Caribbean. People should exhaust all options of going USMD/DO (i.e. multiple admissions cycles) before thinking about going to the Caribbean. I do this because once you are at that point, I think you should have the data to make an informed decision.

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2011-14-matprofilereport.pdf?sfvrsn=4
https://www.aamc.org/download/321494/data/factstable17.pdf
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2015_final.pdf
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf

US-IMG match rates
People like to say the match rate for US-IMGs is 53%, because that's what is listed in the NRMP reports. This number does not refer to first-time match rate (i.e. recent graduates applying to residency for the first time), which is what people are commonly referring to when saying "match rate." This is exemplified by the fact that the NRMP data reports actually breaks up US allopathic applicants into US seniors vs. US grad.

If you look at the ECFMG report from 2013, you will see that the average time since graduation for the unmatched cohort of US-IMGs is 5.7 years.

When quoting that 53% you are not actually describing US-IMGs in the match for the first time, you are describing all US-IMGs in the match regardless of how many times they have applied. The NRMP data reports don't differentiate US-IMG senior vs US-IMG grad. There is without a doubt a percentage (~10%) of US-IMGs that manage to graduate from school, but are poor applicants (semester failures, step failures, etc) and are not able to ever match. This small yearly cohort continues to apply every year, builds up over time (hence the 5.7 years above), and drastically skews the US-IMG "match rate".

If you want to include those reapplicants when describing true US-IMG "match rates", then you also have to include all the applicants from those previous years that did successfully match. If you don't do this (like the NRMP data reports), you are way oversampling the poor applicant/unmatched cohort. The NRMP does actually recognize this because they split US allopathic applicants into those 2 groups, they just don't do it for IMGs for some reason.

People try to say the US MD vs US-IMG match rates are 94% vs 53%, which is in fact comparing 2 completely different data sets. The yearly match rates for NRMP defined US grads (i.e. non-matched applicants from previous years) are actually 40-50%, showing that poor applicants, regardless of where they come from, do not do very well in the match.

The first-time match rate for all US-IMGs is ~75%, and from the big 3 caribbean medical schools is between 80-90%. Granted this does not take into account students lost to attrition before graduation, which is no doubt substantial.

But when people say caribbean grads have a ~50% chance of matching, they are grossly misinterpreting the data.

Future US-IMG match prospects
The bull****ters love to say that by 2020 there will be no more spots for IMGs in the match because of new USMD/DO schools opening, existing school expansion, and the coming residency merger. The only problem with this is that there is absolutely no data to support this.

~6,300 IMGs matched through the NRMP in 2015. The 2011 1st year matriculation numbers were USMD 19,230 and DO 5,363. That's a grand total of 24,593 AMGs who potentially applied for the match in 2015, and 6,300 IMGs matched.

The 2014 first year AMG matriculant numbers are USMD 20,343 and DO 6,465, for a grand total of 26,808. Thats an increase of 2,215 from 2011 to 2014 over 4 years.

The average yearly increase in PGY1 positions through the NRMP is ~500 (not counting 2012 to 2013 and the institution of the all-in policy). So over 4 years, we can expect ~2,000 new positions to be created in the NRMP.

Additional schools opening increase AMG enrollment by hundreds, not thousands. Pre-existing schools are not increasing their class sizes that dramatically, adding only a couple hundred positions a year total. These increases basically just offset the yearly increase in PGY1 positions.

So if you actually look at the data, you will see that AMG enrollment is actually increasing at approximately the same rate as the yearly increase in PGY1 positions through the NRMP. In 2018, ~6,000 IMGs will match, just like they did this year. Additional AMG expansion in 2015/2016 is not going to be anywhere near an amount that will significantly change the number of IMGs that match in 2020.

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[DetectiveAlonzo]

Cue @Mad Jack @ThoracicGuy

Let the battle...

COMMENCE!

 

[Mad Jack]

At the end of the day, going to a US school versus a Carib one is always the better choice. There will be a lot of Carib grads that never match and never make it through school, that's just how it goes. Predicting the growth rate of GME is difficult- we'll see. The merger has actually provided a temporary boost to IMGs that was highly unexpected, for instance, and the ACA funded many of the new community programs that sprung up, but that funding is not indefinite, so whether those programs will remain economical remains to be seen.

No one knows what will happen, so make sure you do the thing that will help you the most regardless of what does. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Even if you have a 75-80% chance of matching after attrition, that's not the 95+% that you see from US MD/DO schools. As well, you have a much larger choice of specialties open to you from US schools compared to Caribbean schools. If you can't get into a US MD/DO school after 2-3 solid tries, then sure consider the Caribbean schools, but you need to be fully aware of the risks involved. Many of the med school hopefuls that post about going to the Caribbean on here either trivialize the risks or ignore them altogether.

 

[DocBlin]

Here are some class of 2010 cold #s. SMU start of May 2006 with 88 bodies. Graduates, May 2010, 44 MDs. Matched less than 24 in the following 3 years. Practicing medicine in US from the 2006 class less than 20. The #s do not belie the facts that Caribbean route can be done but it is a real major uphill battle. If any chance on MD/DO in USA take it!!!

 

[Crayola227]

.

 

[the argus]

What's so dumb about OPs numbers is that I don't remember seeing any mention of WHERE the IMGs were coming from.... Maybe there's a distinction in NRMP I didn't see but if there is OP didn't make that clear.

I bet IMGs born in the UK and attended UK med schools are not likely to be seen like the throwaways that Carrib grads seem to be. while IMGs in non-English speaking countries may fare worse in matching comparatively, I suspect that quite a few are legit rockstars. No one wonders why those students went to the school they did. The ones being taken are likely the cream of that crop. I don't imagine schools in the UK are diploma mills (I could be wrong)

So while Carrib grads like to claim all kinds of reasons why they're not not part of the unlucky FMG statistic, I wonder when you break it down not so much by year but by origin where they stand.

You should actually read the documents I linked to. The ECFMG/NRMP documents clearly separate US-IMGs from foreign-IMGs. This is the basis of my US-IMGs match rate discussion. As for the future match prospects discussion, this has nothing to do with where IMGs are from, and only with the number of available spots for non-AMGs.

Maybe you should rethink who the dumb one is here.

 

[Crayola227]

Hahaha.

Yes, I deleted my post before you quoted it.

I realized right after I wrote it that you were in fact talking about USIMGs (makes my skin crawl putting that together, US & IMG) and therfore deleted it.

I have read that link, I didn't today because, well, every time someone wants to get all excited that only 10-20% of USIMGs have ruined their lives, versus the probably 100% of other IMGs who are better off seeing how they likely have the back up plan being a doctor in their native land, well, whatever.

Unlike some people, I haven't memorized what are still very sad statistics.

Cling to your dreams.

 

[deleted716403]

Never go to Caribbean.

By 2023, the ECFMG will require LCME-level accreditation from offshore schools. http://www.ecfmg.org/about/initiatives-accreditation-requirement.html

 

[the argus]

Never go to Caribbean.

By 2023, the ECFMG will require LCME-level accreditation from offshore schools. http://www.ecfmg.org/about/initiatives-accreditation-requirement.html

Great point, except for the fact that Ross and SGU have already received accreditation under this new model.

The standards that will be used were developed by the World Federation for Medical Education (WFME). 3 accrediting agencies have applied for and been granted recognition by WFME through this process,
1. Association for Evaluation and Accreditation of Medical Education Programs (Turkey)
2. Caribbean Accreditation Authority for Education in Medicine and other Health Professions (CAAMHP)
3. Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME, USA) and the Committee on Accreditation of Canadian Medical Schools (CACMS)

Ross and SGU have already received accreditation from the CAAMHP.

http://www.ecfmg.org/forms/process-recognition-february-2015.pdf
http://www.caam-hp.org/assessedprogrammes.html

 

[Seth Joo]

Even if you have a 75-80% chance of matching after attrition, that's not the 95+% that you see from US MD/DO schools. As well, you have a much larger choice of specialties open to you from US schools compared to Caribbean schools. If you can't get into a US MD/DO school after 2-3 solid tries, then sure consider the Caribbean schools, but you need to be fully aware of the risks involved. Many of the med school hopefuls that post about going to the Caribbean on here either trivialize the risks or ignore them altogether.

Someone I met tried to convince me that SGU was better than LECOM, this was 3 years ago, now that person is in her fourth year at SGU and currently pursuing her fourth year electives applying for residencies, the cost of attending SGU is more than twice that of LECOM, and her residency prospects are not as good had she attended LECOM, she also deeply regretting disregarding my advice on choosing LECOM over SGU.

I noticed that many of these offshore medical schools heavily market themselves at immigrants and children of immigrants who are more likely to spend their life savings on such dodgy investments.

 

[deleted716403]

Great point, except for the fact that Ross and SGU have already received accreditation under this new model.

The standards that will be used were developed by the World Federation for Medical Education (WFME). 3 accrediting agencies have applied for and been granted recognition by WFME through this process,
1. Association for Evaluation and Accreditation of Medical Education Programs (Turkey)
2. Caribbean Accreditation Authority for Education in Medicine and other Health Professions (CAAMHP)
3. Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME, USA) and the Committee on Accreditation of Canadian Medical Schools (CACMS)

Ross and SGU have already received accreditation from the CAAMHP.

http://www.ecfmg.org/forms/process-recognition-february-2015.pdf
http://www.caam-hp.org/assessedprogrammes.html

I find this highly disturbing.

 

[laricb]

Someone I met tried to convince me that SGU was better than LECOM, this was 3 years ago, now that person is in her fourth year at SGU and currently pursuing her fourth year electives applying for residencies, the cost of attending SGU is more than twice that of LECOM, and her residency prospects are not as good had she attended LECOM, she also deeply regretting disregarding my advice on choosing LECOM over SGU.

I noticed that many of these offshore medical schools heavily market themselves at immigrants and children of immigrants who are more likely to spend their life savings on such dodgy investments.

Why are her prospects not as good. DO students mostly match into family med and internal medicine, They don't knock over the specialty spots. Now if she is an average student with low step scores you might be right. But I know many SGU graduates that have gone on to be great doctors in all fields.....

 

[gyngyn]

I find this highly disturbing.

There goes the concept of LCME level accreditation.

 

[laricb]

There goes the concept of LCME level accreditation.

Thank God people like you aren't making the decisions.You must be another DO Graduate....

 

[Seth Joo]

Why are her prospects not as good. DO students mostly match into family med and internal medicine, They don't knock over the specialty spots. Now if she is an average student with low step scores you might be right. But I know many SGU graduates that have gone on to be great doctors in all fields.....

The average IMG has a 50 percent match rate, when you look at DOs, most have over a 75 percent ACGME match rate, I think that number is more around 80 percent, and when you add in AOA programs it is over 95 percent. Also LECOM is half the cost of SGU, SGU is even more expensive than my DO school which is one of the more expensive DO programs.

 

[gyngyn]

Thank God people like you aren't making the decisions.You must be another DO Graduate....

I am an admissions officer at an MD school.
There is nothing about my status that changes the harm caused to gullible/misinformed applicants.

 

[Mad Jack]

Why are her prospects not as good. DO students mostly match into family med and internal medicine, They don't knock over the specialty spots. Now if she is an average student with low step scores you might be right. But I know many SGU graduates that have gone on to be great doctors in all fields.....

In the past, perhaps. But competitive specialty matches are getting more and more competitive as the years move on.

 

[mcat_taker]

Great point, except for the fact that Ross and SGU have already received accreditation under this new model.

The standards that will be used were developed by the World Federation for Medical Education (WFME). 3 accrediting agencies have applied for and been granted recognition by WFME through this process,
1. Association for Evaluation and Accreditation of Medical Education Programs (Turkey)
2. Caribbean Accreditation Authority for Education in Medicine and other Health Professions (CAAMHP)
3. Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME, USA) and the Committee on Accreditation of Canadian Medical Schools (CACMS)

Ross and SGU have already received accreditation from the CAAMHP.

http://www.ecfmg.org/forms/process-recognition-february-2015.pdf
http://www.caam-hp.org/assessedprogrammes.html

What about if you are interested in attending Irish, UK, and Australian schools? Do you think they will get ECFMG accreditation through this new model?

 

[the argus]

There goes the concept of LCME level accreditation.

The education received at the established Caribbean schools is on par with the majority of US medical schools. As I've mentioned before, every single one of my clinical rotations was done alongside USMD or DO students. Was it the same as the education received at Johns Hopkins, Harvard, or UPenn? No, but the majority of AMGs don't learn in those types of environments either.

The major differences between US schools and the established Caribbean schools are things like attrition rate, match rate, etc. These types of things shouldn't, and obviously don't, matter when evaluating whether a school's graduates are competent enough to be physicians in the US. Should they matter when evaluating whether a school should qualify for federal loans, etc? Potentially.

But in terms of evaluating whether graduates are competent to enter US residencies, which is the point of the ECFMG and the program in question, the things about Caribbean schools that get your guy's panties in a bunch really don't matter.

 

[the argus]

What about if you are interested in attending Irish, UK, and Australian schools? Do you think they will get ECFMG accreditation through this new model?

Yes I'm sure the vast majority will.

 

[the argus]

The average IMG has a 50 percent match rate, when you look at DOs, most have over a 75 percent ACGME match rate, I think that number is more around 80 percent, and when you add in AOA programs it is over 95 percent. Also LECOM is half the cost of SGU, SGU is even more expensive than my DO school which is one of the more expensive DO programs.

The average US-IMG has a 75% first time match rate, not 50%. And for SGU/Ross/AUC its 80-90% (Ross was 88% last year). Prospects currently still aren't as good as DO grads, but not nearly as bad as reading this forum would make you believe. It's also going to be interesting to see what happens in a few years once the DO safety net is gone.

As I said above in big bold letters, people should try for DO schools before considering the Caribbean. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have accurate numbers when discussing these issues.

 

[laricb]

I am an admissions officer at an MD school.
There is nothing about my status that changes the harm caused to gullible/misinformed applicants.

Just don't include ROSS and SGU when you quote misinformed. Ill put my chances up against any DO school when compared to these 2 schools. You're just biased and no matter what type of applicant comes out of these programs you would never interview. This is why I wrote thank god..

 

[laricb]

The average US-IMG has a 75% first time match rate, not 50%. And for SGU/Ross/AUC its 80-90% (Ross was 88% last year). Prospects currently still aren't as good as DO grads, but not nearly as bad as reading this forum would make you believe. It's also going to be interesting to see what happens in a few years once the DO safety net is gone.

As I said above in big bold letters, people should try for DO schools before considering the Caribbean. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have accurate numbers when discussing these issues.

Check the DO stats there not matching into any high end specialty programs, were you have many SGU and ROSS Students matching at the same rate

 

[deleted716403]

Don't take me wrong. I hate Carib schools, not the students. For students who go to Carib and get great Board scores, I respect them a lot. Because they do not have the same resources and support as US students do but still succeed. On the other hand, I hate the Carib schools because they are for profit businesses and don't give the slightest care about the students' future. They take your money and let you swim or sink (although I don't support the US model of bending over backward to accommodate students who fail more than once, either). About 800 students matriculate at each school each year, half are weeded out before they even take Step 1. So they do not have the same match rates as US schools.

 

[deleted716403]

There goes the concept of LCME level accreditation.

So what is the point of ECFMG requiring LCME-level accreditation any more when even Carib schools would qualify?

 

[Seth Joo]

The average US-IMG has a 75% first time match rate, not 50%. And for SGU/Ross/AUC its 80-90% (Ross was 88% last year). Prospects currently still aren't as good as DO grads, but not nearly as bad as reading this forum would make you believe. It's also going to be interesting to see what happens in a few years once the DO safety net is gone.

As I said above in big bold letters, people should try for DO schools before considering the Caribbean. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have accurate numbers when discussing these issues.

Yep, and all these students are making Dr. Modica his millions, I read his net worth is nearly 100 million, Dr. Tien is also around that as well.

Dr. Modica got a Private Equity group to invest $750 million into St. George's University, one of the largest financial investments into any medical school in history. The school is a money making machine.

http://blogs.wsj.com/atwork/2014/08/08/st-georges-university-lands-750m-investment-deal/

My friend unwittingly helped pay for Dr. Modica's Ferrari along with thousands of other misinformed students who wanted to have "MD" after their name.

The average US IMG match rate is not 75 percent its only 50 percent. For DOs the ACGME match rate is around 80 percent, and when you factor in AOA residencies its over 95 percent.

 

[gyngyn]

So what is the point of ECFMG requiring LCME-level accreditation any more when even Carib schools would qualify?

Exactly. There had been an expectation that attrition rates similar to US schools would be expected out of all schools that are eligible for federally backed loans. If these schools have met the 2023 standard we cannot expect real reform.

 

[gyngyn]

Just don't include ROSS and SGU when you quote misinformed. Ill put my chances up against any DO school when compared to these 2 schools. You're just biased and no matter what type of applicant comes out of these programs you would never interview. This is why I wrote thank god..

You are correct that we don't interview Caribbean grads but that in no way biases me. I have nothing to gain or lose in the evaluation of these schools since they compete with neither our students nor residents.

 

[deleted716403]

Exactly. There had been an expectation that attrition rates similar toUS schools would be expected out of all schools that are eligible for federally backed loans. If these schools have met the 2023 standard we cannot expect real reform.

I think this would be a reasonable requirement to make.

 

[Seth Joo]

I think this would be a reasonable requirement to make.

None of the Caribbean schools have attrition rates remotely similar to US MD schools, even to DO schools some of the lower end DO schools have as high as 10 percent attrition like LUCOM. Many of the better Caribbean schools lose around 20 percent of their students.

 

[jakeislove]

There goes the concept of LCME level accreditation.

Even with LCME accreditation and Step Scores being useless, I have faith that you'll find a reason to reject certain applicants.

 

[the argus]

The average US IMG match rate is not 75 percent its only 50 percent. For DOs the ACGME match rate is around 80 percent, and when you factor in AOA residencies its over 95 percent.

This is wrong and frankly not arguable. Please read the original post for an explanation why. The first time match rate, what people generally refer to when saying "match rate," is ~75%.

 

[the argus]

Exactly. There had been an expectation that attrition rates similar to US schools would be expected out of all schools that are eligible for federally backed loans. If these schools have met the 2023 standard we cannot expect real reform.

The 2023 standard is an ECFMG initiative designed to standardize foreign medical graduate competence to begin residency in the US. It has absolutely nothing to do, and never did, with US federal student loan eligibility.

 

[yeee]

I agree. No one should ever apply to a Carribean school

 

[the argus]

I agree. No one should ever apply to a Carribean school

Wow, since you are pre-health student who it appears is interested in applying to a MHA program, I thank you for what I'm sure is your extremely knowledgable and experience-laden opinion on this subject.

 

[deleted716403]

Wow, since you are pre-health student who it appears is interested in applying to a MHA program, I thank you for what I'm sure is your extremely knowledgable and experience-laden opinion on this subject.

In another thread, you yourself advised people NOT to go Caribbean...

 

[Mad Jack]

The education received at the established Caribbean schools is on par with the majority of US medical schools. As I've mentioned before, every single one of my clinical rotations was done alongside USMD or DO students. Was it the same as the education received at Johns Hopkins, Harvard, or UPenn? No, but the majority of AMGs don't learn in those types of environments either.

The major differences between US schools and the established Caribbean schools are things like attrition rate, match rate, etc. These types of things shouldn't, and obviously don't, matter when evaluating whether a school's graduates are competent enough to be physicians in the US. Should they matter when evaluating whether a school should qualify for federal loans, etc? Potentially.

But in terms of evaluating whether graduates are competent to enter US residencies, which is the point of the ECFMG and the program in question, the things about Caribbean schools that get your guy's panties in a bunch really don't matter.

I've never doubted the competence of Caribbean grads. They make wonderful physicians. I'm more concerned about debt, attrition, specialty limitations, and match rates.

 

[Dreamstoo]

I've never doubted the competence of Caribbean grads. They make wonderful physicians. I'm more concerned about debt, attrition, specialty limitations, and match rates.

Same. The attrition rate is pretty infamous at certain schools and I have heard of a few horror stories of people I know who were either kicked out of AUA or quit because they felt it was too sketchy.

Only SGU/Ross are worth the squeeze in my opinion if they can get through all that. Meaning they score well on their Step scores and are able to get to clinical rotations. Most people I know who went this route meaning SGU/Ross ended up somewhere when they matched. Although if you go to SGU/Ross be prepared to go primary care because I've rarely seen their grads specialize although I have met a few trying to match for cardio residencies.

I would say it's only worth going to SGU/Ross if you have at least applied for one or two cycles and were not successful in America and you have some type of connection with a Carib affiliated hospital in the U.S..

Most people I have talked to who have been successful the Carib route said it's definitely risky but once you match, all that fear goes away. I remember reading somewhere that Carib schools were a better idea in the early 2000s then it is now. I would kind of dispute that since the attrition rates have gotten lower and the match rate for SGU/Ross have increased over the past few years.

If you do consider the Caribbean, know the risks. Don't go simply because you couldn't break a 20 MCAT score or a 3.0 GPA. Although I have met a successful SGU resident who told me he got in the mid 2000s with a 2.8 GPA and 19 or 20 MCAT. Those type of people tend to fail out sometimes. I would definitely try to question representatives about any questions you have about the two schools and talk to alumni if you can find them. I would say for some people SGU/Ross was their only chance to become a doctor and I know a non trad student personally who went to one of these two schools and absolutely did amazing on their Step exams. I also know a SGU student who went there after a gap year of an unsuccessful application and is now a resident at a mid tier MD hospital in a primary care speciality.

You will hear more success stories in my opinion at SGU than any other Carib school out there. Ross is worth it if you can get past the first few years where a lot of people get weeded out.

 

[the argus]

In another thread, you yourself advised people NOT to go Caribbean...

Not correct. I have said you should exhaust all US options before considering the Caribbean. I don't advise one way or the other, I just try to present the most accurate data so people can make an informed decision for themselves.

 

[torontopharm]

Same. The attrition rate is pretty infamous at certain schools and I have heard of a few horror stories of people I know who were either kicked out of AUA or quit because they felt it was too sketchy.

Only SGU/Ross are worth the squeeze in my opinion if they can get through all that. Meaning they score well on their Step scores and are able to get to clinical rotations. Most people I know who went this route meaning SGU/Ross ended up somewhere when they matched. Although if you go to SGU/Ross be prepared to go primary care because I've rarely seen their grads specialize although I have met a few trying to match for cardio residencies.

You will hear more success stories in my opinion at SGU than any other Carib school out there. Ross is worth it if you can get past the first few years where a lot of people get weeded out.

I'll give you a Canadian's perspective for what it's worth. Out of the big 4, most Canadians end up going to Saba since it's the cheapest..and until now i've yet to hear a failure story from the ones who took this route. However, these were bright UofT kids that had >3.5 GPA, 28-30 MCAT etc. and probably don't represent majority of the students enrolled in Carib schools. Considering you've exhausted all your options in North America, thought about alternative careers, and you have other personal reasons etc... if you're still considering the Carib route, i wouldn't go anywhere but the big 4 schools.

 

[Dreamstoo]

I'll give you a Canadian's perspective for what it's worth. Out of the big 4, most Canadians end up going to Saba since it's the cheapest..and until now i've yet to hear a failure story from the ones who took this route. However, these were bright UofT kids that had >3.5 GPA, 28-30 MCAT etc. and probably don't represent majority of the students enrolled in Carib schools. Considering you've exhausted all your options in North America, thought about alternative careers, and you have other personal reasons etc... if you're still considering the Carib route, i wouldn't go anywhere but the big 4 schools.

Agreed. I personally have never heard of a failure story out of SGU or Ross as a US citizen and I have known a handful of people who have attended (most in the 2000s and a few in the 2010s). They do have to apply to tons of residencies however to match but once they match, they can finally stop stressing out. I met a few Ross students at a hospital I used to shadow at and they all said the first two years or so of Step 1 and pre-clinicals is when some people falter out of the program. I've heard of students who got distracted/partying there and people who just got overwhelmed/depressed because they weren't at a US school and were nervous about their chances of matching down the line (I know someone who did this from a non big 4 school and is trying for the 3rd or 4th time to get into a US school with low stats as an ORM)

But of course as I said before, one should do a lot of research and talk to the schools' alumni before considering applying or going there.

DEFINITELY ignore Caribbean schools that don't require MCAT scores. I've heard two horror stories in recent years about one specifically that's outside of the big 4.

I do have a Canadian relative who couldn't get in to medical school in Canada after a few cycles and went to a top European medical school and was eventually able to match back in Canada (but not in their specialty they wanted). Besides that, I'm not sure how IMGs fare in Canada. I definitely feel for Canadians. Getting into medical school in Canada is so difficult compared to the US that has MD and DO schools as well as multiple post-bacc/masters programs to help out struggling aspiring doctors.

Beyond 2022-2023 however, I think the Big 4 schools will have significant drops in matching especially in the U.S.

 

[mcat_taker]

@the argus Trying to get this thread back on topic: I have an offer to an Australian school as a U.S. citizen, but the school has only started taking internationals for three years so there isn't any data as to successful matches back to the U.S. I'm assuming I would just follow the same steps that any IMG, carib included would go through in terms of sitting the USMLEs. I'm still thinking about the caribbean especially SGU because I know so many people that did it, but I am strongly considering Australia because I think it'll be a better opportunity to live in another first world country that has a great quality of life, good work/life balance for a few years, with less stigma than the caribbean, not to mention almost nonexistent attrition at Australian medical schools compared to caribbean. I'm assuming the education will be fairly good considering how difficult it is for Australians to get into medical school. I think that I can make more of a case for PDs back home on why Australia because I have family in Australia, my mom went to med school in Australia, I wanted a global perspective on medicine, to learn about different healthcare systems etc. If I went to the caribbean every program director is going to know why I went.

How big of a difference will it make not having those 2 years of U.S. clerkships? From what I can tell most SGU/Ross grads are rotating at smaller community hospitals in Brooklyn and the Bronx (they have that 10 year 100 million dollar deal for clerkship spots with NY Health and Hospital Corp), My friends at U.S. schools rotate with a bunch of SGU grads in jersey and NYC and they don't really see any other IMGs rotating there (they've also told me that the SGU grads do fine in their rotations and know their stuff).

I figure if I go to Australia I can do at most 2 away electives in my fourth year back in the U.S. Will that be enough? I'm an IMG either way but do you think Australia is a significantly worse option without those two years of U.S. clerkships?

 

[the argus]

@the argus Trying to get this thread back on topic: I have an offer to an Australian school as a U.S. citizen, but the school has only started taking internationals for three years so there isn't any data as to successful matches back to the U.S. I'm assuming I would just follow the same steps that any IMG, carib included would go through in terms of sitting the USMLEs. I'm still thinking about the caribbean especially SGU because I know so many people that did it, but I am strongly considering Australia because I think it'll be a better opportunity to live in another first world country that has a great quality of life, good work/life balance for a few years, with less stigma than the caribbean, not to mention almost nonexistent attrition at Australian medical schools compared to caribbean. I'm assuming the education will be fairly good considering how difficult it is for Australians to get into medical school. I think that I can make more of a case for PDs back home on why Australia because I have family in Australia, my mom went to med school in Australia, I wanted a global perspective on medicine, to learn about different healthcare systems etc. If I went to the caribbean every program director is going to know why I went.

How big of a difference will it make not having those 2 years of U.S. clerkships? From what I can tell most SGU/Ross grads are rotating at smaller community hospitals in Brooklyn and the Bronx (they have that 10 year 100 million dollar deal for clerkship spots with NY Health and Hospital Corp), My friends at U.S. schools rotate with a bunch of SGU grads in jersey and NYC and they don't really see any other IMGs rotating there (they've also told me that the SGU grads do fine in their rotations and know their stuff).

I figure if I go to Australia I can do at most 2 away electives in my fourth year back in the U.S. Will that be enough? I'm an IMG either way but do you think Australia is a significantly worse option without those two years of U.S. clerkships?

When it comes to applying for residency, I think for the most part a US-IMG is a US-IMG, regardless of the country you went to medical school in. PDs will assume you went abroad to Australia for the same reasons people go abroad to the Caribbean. I don't think going to Australia will open doors into more competitive specialties or higher tiers of primary care specialties, but I don't have any experience in this realm so that is just speculation. The only foreign school that US-IMGs seem to do better out of is the american Sackler program, and after talking to multiple grads from that program it seems this is due to personal connections more than anything else.

I think the main advantage the Caribbean gives is doing all your clinical rotations in the US. SGU/Ross students rotate in many more hospitals than community NYC hospitals. LORs from US based physicians are highly preferred when applying to residency.

I think overall high-achieving US-IMGs do well regardless of the country of medical school, while mediocre US-IMGs will have more difficulty regardless of whether they go to the Caribbean, Israel, Australia, Ireland, India, etc. Don't go to Australia thinking it will give you a major leg-up on Caribbean grads, it likely won't. Many of the reasons you listed on why you want to go to Australia (1st world country, family history) are great reasons to choose Australia over other places, some of the reasons you listed are not (global perspective, how healthcare systems work other places). These are things you learn over 1 month rotations abroad, not reasons to go to medical school abroad if you want to eventually practice in the US.

Good luck with whatever you choose. Regardless of where you go, having excellent grades, step scores, and LORs will make the big difference when applying to residency as an US-IMG.

 

[mcat_taker]

When it comes to applying for residency, I think for the most part a US-IMG is a US-IMG, regardless of the country you went to medical school in. PDs will assume you went abroad to Australia for the same reasons people go abroad to the Caribbean. I don't think going to Australia will open doors into more competitive specialties or higher tiers of primary care specialties, but I don't have any experience in this realm so that is just speculation. The only foreign school that US-IMGs seem to do better out of is the american Sackler program, and after talking to multiple grads from that program it seems this is due to personal connections more than anything else.

I think the main advantage the Caribbean gives is doing all your clinical rotations in the US. SGU/Ross students rotate in many more hospitals than community NYC hospitals. LORs from US based physicians are highly preferred when applying to residency.

I think overall high-achieving US-IMGs do well regardless of the country of medical school, while mediocre US-IMGs will have more difficulty regardless of whether they go to the Caribbean, Israel, Australia, Ireland, India, etc. Don't go to Australia thinking it will give you a major leg-up on Caribbean grads, it likely won't. Many of the reasons you listed on why you want to go to Australia (1st world country, family history) are great reasons to choose Australia over other places, some of the reasons you listed are not (global perspective, how healthcare systems work other places). These are things you learn over 1 month rotations abroad, not reasons to go to medical school abroad if you want to eventually practice in the US.

Good luck with whatever you choose. Regardless of where you go, having excellent grades, step scores, and LORs will make the big difference when applying to residency as an US-IMG.

Thanks for the advice. I've also heard that if you can do at least 2 away electives that should be enough to get good LORs from U.S. physicians. Mostly what attracts me to Australia is the fact that the schools are in a very desirable country to live in, the low attrition rates, the better work/life balance, good clinical schools, experiencing a new country and culture, and going to a full fledged university that isn't just a for profit caribbean one. Not to mention, if I can't get residency back in the U.S. at least training in Australia might be an option (although not guaranteed either, its based on a priority system).

What I'm slightly concerned about is then having a lack of familiarity with the U.S. system, but I guess thats what the away electives are for. I also understand I'll have to be more independent in terms of my USMLE prep because of the much smaller cohort of internationals sitting the exam. The curriculum won't be designed around it either like it is in the caribbean.

 

[deleted716403]

When it comes to applying for residency, I think for the most part a US-IMG is a US-IMG, regardless of the country you went to medical school in.

Not quite true. Read the posts by the staff & attendings in the Pre-med forum.

I personally would go to the UK, Ireland, Australia over schools like LUCOM and the for-profit schools in the States. But I would never go to Caribbean schools for the same reason: they are for-profit, too, besides being in a third world country where sometimes there isn't reliable drinking water & electricity.

 

[Dreamstoo]

Not quite true. Read the posts by the staff & attendings in the Pre-med forum.

I personally would go to the UK, Ireland, Australia over schools like LUCOM and the for-profit schools in the States. But I would never go to Caribbean schools for the same reason: they are for-profit, too, besides being in a third world country where sometimes there isn't reliable drinking water & electricity.

I do know a few people who chose Poland and Australian medical schools without really exhausting their options for MD/DO in the states. I also know an individual that went to Polish dental school after not getting off a waitlist of a US dental school.
Similar things happen with SGU/Ross, I often see people go that route because they couldn't get into MD/DO route. Almost every year, I hear of someone matriculating in Caribbean schools. But nowadays with all the claims that eventually American IMGs will be limited in terms of residency spots, people are becoming more wary of going overseas despite the fact Ross, for example, is matching better than ever. There are predictions however that are rampant in some of the medical communities that by the mid 2020s, Caribbean schools including the Big 4 may have a really difficult time matching into US residencies.

No one really knows when American IMGs will be limited in gaining residencies. The predictions have been made almost every few years but somehow the Big 4 Caribbean schools still land people into residencies in large bundles. Usually the stories I hear of students who do everything right in the Caribbean but still cannot match are usually from lower end Caribbean schools. If you're going to Caribbean and want to take a someewhat "safe" risk, the best is to go to SGU/Ross and go for the big name Caribbean schools down the line. These two schools have been doing well with matching the past 5 years or so despite all the claims that it was supposed to slow down by 2015, etc.

 

[torontopharm]

Thanks for the advice. I've also heard that if you can do at least 2 away electives that should be enough to get good LORs from U.S. physicians. Mostly what attracts me to Australia is the fact that the schools are in a very desirable country to live in, the low attrition rates, the better work/life balance, good clinical schools, experiencing a new country and culture, and going to a full fledged university that isn't just a for profit caribbean one. Not to mention, if I can't get residency back in the U.S. at least training in Australia might be an option (although not guaranteed either, its based on a priority system).
.

Aren't there a lot of residency spots that specifically require 6 months to 1 year of US clinical rotations? That's what i was told by my Carib friends anyway...to justify their choice of school over Aus/UK etc.

 

[deleted716403]

Aren't there a lot of residency spots that specifically require 6 months to 1 year of US clinical rotations?

No, there are only a few that have this requirement.

 

[torontopharm]

I do have a Canadian relative who couldn't get in to medical school in Canada after a few cycles and went to a top European medical school and was eventually able to match back in Canada (but not in their specialty they wanted). Besides that, I'm not sure how IMGs fare in Canada. I definitely feel for Canadians. Getting into medical school in Canada is so difficult compared to the US that has MD and DO schools as well as multiple post-bacc/masters programs to help out struggling aspiring doctors.

Beyond 2022-2023 however, I think the Big 4 schools will have significant drops in matching especially in the U.S.

Since this is a great thread with numbers/statistics etc., i thought i'd post some Canadian #'s for the Canadians that are lurking..
Canadians studying in..
Carib schools match at ~20%
Europe schools match at ~34% (with Irish schools matching at ~70%)
Australian schools match at ~63%
These are all based on CaRMS data, assuming of course you're a Canadian citizen/PR and studying abroad. In other words, it's extremely difficult to match back to Canada.