ADA 2019 Income Report

[ToothJockey]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but for anyone who is curious, they released the dental income report for 2018, published last month.
I also attached the report published 2018 if anyone wants to compare.

tlr
Dental income went down again, by about 2%. With inflation going up about 3% annually, this is essentially a 5% reduction in income. Dental income has been going down for a decade, if it continues at this rate I'm pretty sure the hygeinist will start making more lol

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[Cold Front]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but for anyone who is curious, they released the dental income report for 2018, published last month.
I also attached the report published 2018 if anyone wants to compare.

tlr
Dental income went down again, by about 2%. With inflation going up about 3% annually, this is essentially a 5% reduction in income. Dental income has been going down for a decade, if it continues at this rate I'm pretty sure the hygeinist will start making more lol

Basically, income for the top quartile:

GP solo owner: $300-350k a year
Specialist solo owner: $500-600k a year

Also in table 2 of the report, income dipped for owner solo general dentists from $175k to $158k a year from 2017 to 2018. Most of the other income numbers either went down or stayed the same for the same period. No one knows why!


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[ToothJockey]

Basically, income for the top quartile:

GP solo owner: $300-350k a year
Specialist solo owner: $500-600k a year

Also in table 2 of the report, income dipped for owner solo general dentists from $175k to $158k a year from 2017 to 2018. Most of the other income numbers either went down or stayed the same for the same period. No one knows why!


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Well, based on the data for 2018, I would say top quartile is:
GP- 250k+
Specialist- 400k+
Who knows how high those numbers go, but that's beside the point. Even for the top quartile, overall there was a decrease in income meaning even the above average dentists are making less money than before. The main takeaway is that overall the income is decreasing, whereas in many other careers, income is steadily increasing, such as nursing, engineering, tech, etc.

I'll give a medicine example since this is SDN. Compensation among all physicians saw an income increase of 2.92% in 2018, which is about on pace with inflation. Of course this data comes from MGMA and AMGA so it is much more accurate than a self reported ADA survey.

Physician pay is on the rise, but for which specialties? | MDLinx

Physician compensation rose overall in 2018, but not for every doctor, MGMA survey showed.

www.mdlinx.com

Adjusted for inflation, physicians had a net ~0% change in income, so you can say income stayed about the same. Docs over there are complaining income has stagnated, cool whatever, atleast it is keeping up with inflation. However, dentistry had a net -5% change adjusted for inflation, which is ridiculously bad. This isn't even taking into account tuition increases to dental schools, which are 5%+.

Overall this is pretty worrisome because prices of houses will only get more expensive, price of food, price of netflix, etc. I don't wanna sound all doom and gloom, because I am aspiring to go into the dental field myself, but I just came upon the report today and I was hoping to see a positive trend but got the opposite. Objectively, all you can conclude is that this is a career with a steep entry price, combined with a steep decline in income.

 

[Cold Front]

Well, based on the data for 2018, I would say top quartile is:
GP- 250k+
Specialist- 400k+
Who knows how high those numbers go, but that's beside the point. Even for the top quartile, overall there was a decrease in income meaning even the above average dentists are making less money than before. The main takeaway is that overall the income is decreasing, whereas in many other careers, income is steadily increasing, such as nursing, engineering, tech, etc.

I'll give a medicine example since this is SDN. Compensation among all physicians saw an income increase of 2.92% in 2018, which is about on pace with inflation. Of course this data comes from MGMA and AMGA so it is much more accurate than a self reported ADA survey.

Physician pay is on the rise, but for which specialties? | MDLinx

Physician compensation rose overall in 2018, but not for every doctor, MGMA survey showed.

www.mdlinx.com

Adjusted for inflation, physicians had a net ~0% change in income, so you can say income stayed about the same. Docs over there are complaining income has stagnated, cool whatever, atleast it is keeping up with inflation. However, dentistry had a net -5% change adjusted for inflation, which is ridiculously bad. This isn't even taking into account tuition increases to dental schools, which are 5%+.

Overall this is pretty worrisome because prices of houses will only get more expensive, price of food, price of netflix, etc. I don't wanna sound all doom and gloom, because I am aspiring to go into the dental field myself, but I just came upon the report today and I was hoping to see a positive trend but got the opposite. Objectively, all you can conclude is that this is a career with a steep entry price, combined with a steep decline in income.

Medicine track now has less student loans and higher median income than dentistry. Albeit medicine has a longer training, but unlike dentistry- no additional significant debt during specialty training.


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[ToothJockey]

Medicine track now has less student loans and higher median income than dentistry. Albeit medicine has a longer training, but unlike dentistry- no additional significant debt during specialty training.


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Yeah I mean medicine has had higher raw income than dentistry since forever pretty much (except maybe primary care), but they typically worked more hrs and had longer training, not to mention more admission difficulty.

I'm not gonna give up on dentistry based on 1 report though, because for all we know 2018 could have been an anomaly and the sample sizes are rather small and self reported. Plus overall if you look at table 6, median gross billings has almost doubled from 2000 to 2018, and the billings have been steadily increasing with a few down years. This means that overall dental practices are bringing in more revenue steadily, with 2018 (hopefully) being an anomaly. Unfortunately by the time the 2019 report comes out I will probably already have to decide whether to attend school or not, so I won't get a chance to see if 2018 is a fluky year or if it is the start of a new downwards trend.

 

[Cold Front]

I'm not gonna give up on dentistry based on 1 report though, because for all we know 2018 could have been an anomaly and the sample sizes are rather small and self reported. Plus overall if you look at table 6, median gross billings has almost doubled from 2000 to 2018, and the billings have been steadily increasing with a few down years. This means that overall dental practices are bringing in more revenue steadily, with 2018 (hopefully) being an anomaly. Unfortunately by the time the 2019 report comes out I will probably already have to decide whether to attend school or not, so I won't get a chance to see if 2018 is a fluky year or if it is the start of a new downwards trend.

I’m pretty sure overhead went up significantly over the years as well; payroll, new office construction cost, leasing a space, new technology cost, student loans, and beyond. Everything was cheap 20 years ago, but as grossing billings doubled, so did a lot of other stuff.


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[ToothJockey]

I’m pretty sure overhead went up significantly over the years as well; payroll, new office construction cost, leasing a space, new technology cost, student loans, and beyond. Everything was cheap 20 years ago, but as grossing billings doubled, so did a lot of other stuff.


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Oh yeah for sure, according to table 14, expenses for a GP were only 215k back then, now it is about 400k, so expenses have doubled too. That being said, according to table 2, median owner income had risen from 140k in 2000, to about 190k in 2017, until it dropped back down to 175k in 2018. So income has also definitely risen since then. But the bigger story here is that the median income was about 180k in 2008, so income hasn't really risen in a decade.

Honestly I'm not an expert in economics or statistics so I don't know how to interpret this, all I know is that if dentists don't start earning more in the future it will be tough to afford a house, a car etc. especially with loans as high as they are. The median house won't cost 300k or whatever in the future, it will be more like 500k+. Dental income cannot afford to stagnate, otherwise there will be a whole lotta bankruptcies among dentists in the future.

 

[Cold Front]

Oh yeah for sure, according to table 14, expenses for a GP were only 215k back then, now it is about 400k, so expenses have doubled too. That being said, according to table 2, median owner income had risen from 140k in 2000, to about 190k in 2017, until it dropped back down to 175k in 2018. So income has also definitely risen since then. But the bigger story here is that the median income was about 180k in 2008, so income hasn't really risen in a decade.

Honestly I'm not an expert in economics or statistics so I don't know how to interpret this, all I know is that if dentists don't start earning more in the future it will be tough to afford a house, a car etc. especially with loans as high as they are. The median house won't cost 300k or whatever in the future, it will be more like 500k+. Dental income cannot afford to stagnate, otherwise there will be a whole lotta bankruptcies among dentists in the future.

Dentist Income is lagging relative to other cost. It will continue to lag, and that’s the bottom line for the profession - financially. Tuition and fees of dental schools went up 3-5% this year, and will go up again the same rate next year. Income however, will not go up as much, and if it does for some, the increases will not hold or sustain year-to-year overs decades for the majority. Any dentist can tell you that their income went up few years, but also went down few years - due to many reasons; switching employers, moving their office to a new location, staff issues, bad winter, having kids, etc. If you take off 1 week from work as a dentist due to illness or personal reasons, you either have to work harder and produce more to make up for that week during the year, or risk your income being lower than the previous year. Meanwhile, expenses and debt payments do not take vacations or get sick and continue to rise every year.


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[AONLINE]

GP- 250k+

Is this number the top quartile for all GPs or is it for GP owners only? Because those 2 would be totally different.


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[charlestweed]

Medicine track now has less student loans and higher median income than dentistry. Albeit medicine has a longer training, but unlike dentistry- no additional significant debt during specialty training.

But doctors only make $60k/year during their 3-year residency trainings…and their student loan interests continue to accrue. New grad dentists can make at least $100k/year even in saturated markets like CA and NYC. After 3 years of working and with the experience/speed that they have gained, dentists should bring home $150-$200 or more a year. Being 3 years ahead should make up for the higher student loans that the dentists have to take out (if they know how to spend/invest their hard earned money wisely).

If I had to choose between the 2 professions today, I would still pick dentistry over medicine because of the better lifestyle, full autonomy, higher income earning as a business owner. So why do I want my kids to go to med schools? Because I don’t think they are willing to do what are required to become successful dentists. It's my fault....I have spoiled them. I don’t think as dentists, my kids are willing to work 6 days/week, working on Saturdays, traveling to work at multiple offices etc. When they work at hospitals as doctors, they don’t really have a choice to be lazy….they have to follow the hospital’s policies…they can’t say no to working on the weekends….they can’t say no to treating patients whom they don’t like….they have to deal with the bosses who have lower educational degrees than theirs.

 

[charlestweed]

Meanwhile, expenses and debt payments do not take vacations or get sick and continue to rise every year.

But when you reduce the debt amounts in half (or pay them off) after 4-5 years (or 10 or whatever number of years) of hard work, you can breathe a lot easier. It should fine if your income go down a little bit. It should be fine if your office rents and your staff salaries increase a little bit. You can afford to cut 1 work day/week and spend time with your kids.

 

[Cold Front]

But doctors only make $60k/year during their 3-year residency trainings…and their student loan interests continue to accrue. New grad dentists can make at least $100k/year even in saturated markets like CA and NYC. After 3 years of working and with the experience/speed that they have gained, dentists should bring home $150-$200 or more a year. Being 3 years ahead should make up for the higher student loans that the dentists have to take out (if they know how to spend/invest their hard earned money wisely).

I had to choose between the 2 professions today, I would still pick dentistry over medicine because of the better lifestyle, full autonomy, higher income earning as a business owner. So why do I want my kids to go to med schools? Because I don’t think they are willing to do what are required to become successful dentists. It's my fault....I have spoiled them. I don’t think as dentists, my kids are willing to work 6 days/week, working on Saturdays, traveling to work at multiple offices etc. When they work at hospitals as doctors, they don’t really have a choice to be lazy….they have to follow the hospital’s policies…they can’t say no to working on the weekends….they can’t say no to treating patients whom they don’t like….they have to deal with the bosses who have lower educational degrees than theirs.

Yes. Autonomy. Priceless.


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[ToothJockey]

Is this number the top quartile for all GPs or is it for GP owners only? Because those 2 would be totally different.


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It's for owners only. Top quartile for employed dentists is 190k. This means 75% of owner dentists net less than 250k, and that number is only going down year by year.

Dentist Income is lagging relative to other cost. It will continue to lag, and that’s the bottom line for the profession - financially. Tuition and fees of dental schools went up 3-5% this year, and will go up again the same rate next year. Income however, will not go up as much, and if it does for some, the increases will not hold or sustain year-to-year overs decades for the majority. Any dentist can tell you that their income went up few years, but also went down few years - due to many reasons; switching employers, moving their office to a new location, staff issues, bad winter, having kids, etc. If you take off 1 week from work as a dentist due to illness or personal reasons, you either have to work harder and produce more to make up for that week during the year, or risk your income being lower than the previous year. Meanwhile, expenses and debt payments do not take vacations or get sick and continue to rise every year.


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Right, exactly that is what is concerning. In 20 years, mortgage payments will be a hell of a lot higher, so will student loan payments, so will car payments, so will dental practice loan payments, so will a gallon of milk. You really think Netflix is gonna cost $15 bucks a month? Nah, more like $25...What's my point? In this climate, a dentist even missing 1 day of work could be the difference between him being able to make his payments on time, or missing his payments resulting in penalties. Eventually, bankruptcy. Why? Simply because income is not keeping up with the economy. The top 25% of dentists will be fine, they won't be as cushy as right now but they will be fine, what about the rest 75% of dentists? They will be struggling.

I hear higher autonomy, lifestyle, income etc. thrown around a lot for why dentistry is better than medicine, and that may be true for the top 25% of dentists, but the rest of them would probably disagree. What good is autonomy and lifestyle when you constantly have to stress whether you will produce enough dentistry to pay the loan payments/bills? A physician doesn't have to be worried, because even though they work a ton, they are guaranteed their 500k a year for being a GI doc for example, and they know in the future their income will keep up with inflation. They don't have to worry about increase in mortgages, or their loans, or Netflix, because their salary will increase according to the increase of everything else in the economy.

New MGMA Research Finds Physician Compensation on the Rise

/PRNewswire/ -- Medical Group Management Association (MGMA) released its annual Provider Compensation and Production Report, the most comprehensive view of...

www.prnewswire.com

That's job and income security right there

 

[Prehealth1011]

But doctors only make $60k/year during their 3-year residency trainings…and their student loan interests continue to accrue. New grad dentists can make at least $100k/year even in saturated markets like CA and NYC. After 3 years of working and with the experience/speed that they have gained, dentists should bring home $150-$200 or more a year. Being 3 years ahead should make up for the higher student loans that the dentists have to take out (if they know how to spend/invest their hard earned money wisely).

If I had to choose between the 2 professions today, I would still pick dentistry over medicine because of the better lifestyle, full autonomy, higher income earning as a business owner. So why do I want my kids to go to med schools? Because I don’t think they are willing to do what are required to become successful dentists. It's my fault....I have spoiled them. I don’t think as dentists, my kids are willing to work 6 days/week, working on Saturdays, traveling to work at multiple offices etc. When they work at hospitals as doctors, they don’t really have a choice to be lazy….they have to follow the hospital’s policies…they can’t say no to working on the weekends….they can’t say no to treating patients whom they don’t like….they have to deal with the bosses who have lower educational degrees than theirs.

You can moonlight after PGY-1 and make much more than 60k/year. It’s essentially upto you how much you wanna make during residency. Hours obviously suck and you can’t moonlight your way to 300k. But 100k/year is very common during residency.
Inpatient definitely comes with a lot of bs. For some it’s worth it for others it isn’t. EM docs can make 300-400k working 40 hours a week while dealing with all of that while nephrologists are working double the amount for half the pay. Ultimately i guess you gotta pick your poison and be smart with the speciality you choose.

 

[Cold Front]

It's for owners only. Top quartile for employed dentists is 190k. This means 75% of owner dentists net less than 250k, and that number is only going down year by year.



Right, exactly that is what is concerning. In 20 years, mortgage payments will be a hell of a lot higher, so will student loan payments, so will car payments, so will dental practice loan payments, so will a gallon of milk. You really think Netflix is gonna cost $15 bucks a month? Nah, more like $25...What's my point? In this climate, a dentist even missing 1 day of work could be the difference between him being able to make his payments on time, or missing his payments resulting in penalties. Eventually, bankruptcy. Why? Simply because income is not keeping up with the economy. The top 25% of dentists will be fine, they won't be as cushy as right now but they will be fine, what about the rest 75% of dentists? They will be struggling.

I hear higher autonomy, lifestyle, income etc. thrown around a lot for why dentistry is better than medicine, and that may be true for the top 25% of dentists, but the rest of them would probably disagree. What good is autonomy and lifestyle when you constantly have to stress whether you will produce enough dentistry to pay the loan payments/bills? A physician doesn't have to be worried, because even though they work a ton, they are guaranteed their 500k a year for being a GI doc for example, and they know in the future their income will keep up with inflation. They don't have to worry about increase in mortgages, or their loans, or Netflix, because their salary will increase according to the increase of everything else in the economy.

New MGMA Research Finds Physician Compensation on the Rise

/PRNewswire/ -- Medical Group Management Association (MGMA) released its annual Provider Compensation and Production Report, the most comprehensive view of...

www.prnewswire.com

That's job and income security right there

That’s the thing with inflation. $200k/yr income today will feel like $180k in 10 years, or $160k in 20 years - at 1% inflation rate a year. So imagine what 2% or even 3% a year could do?

30-40 years ago, inflation jumped about 10% or more each year. Only 1 in 5 people who work today remembers those wild years when inflation was eating into their purchase power every year. The rest haven’t seen inflation over 3-4%. If inflation jumps significantly (over 5%) in the future, it will weaken all the doctorate level healthcare professions income, specially when the current tax breaks expire in 2025 - which will push the net income down even further.

So, how do you fight the risks of inflation as a dentist? Work harder every year, stay healthy, and hope the insurance industry (the primary source of a dentist’s income) doesn’t continue to cut reimbursement rates for dental services.


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[charlestweed]

You can moonlight after PGY-1 and make much more than 60k/year. It’s essentially upto you how much you wanna make during residency. Hours obviously suck and you can’t moonlight your way to 300k. But 100k/year is very common during residency.
Inpatient definitely comes with a lot of bs. For some it’s worth it for others it isn’t. EM docs can make 300-400k working 40 hours a week while dealing with all of that while nephrologists are working double the amount for half the pay. Ultimately i guess you gotta pick your poison and be smart with the speciality you choose.

In any field, the more hours you work the more money you make. If a new grad dentist is willling to work hard like the medical residents (working 6-7 days/week and traveling to work at multiple offices etc), he/she can bring home $200k or more a year. And in 3 years, his/her student loans should be reduced by half. But I don't think a lot of dentists are willing to put in the same amount of work hours as the medical residents and practicing physicians.

My younger brother is a GI doc. He is 10 years younger than I am and is a fairly recent grad. He moonlighted and lived with our parents during his medical residency. He already paid off his $300k student loan. He went to an expensive 8-yr BS/MD program.

Below is my work schedule for January 2020. I will work 12 days straight (from Jan 11th to Jan 22nd) to make up for the days that I will take off during this Xmas break. To many medical residents and physicians , this work schedule is normal. But to many of my dental colleagues, this is crazy.

 

[Prehealth1011]

In any field, the more hours you work the more money you make. If a new grad dentist is willling to work hard like the medical residents (working 6-7 days/week and traveling to work at multiple offices etc), he/she can bring home $200k or more a year. And in 3 years, his/her student loans should be reduced by half. But I don't think a lot of dentists are willing to put in the same amount of work hours as the medical residents and practicing physicians.

My younger brother is a GI doc. He is 10 years younger than I am and is a fairly recent grad. He moonlighted and lived with our parents during his medical residency. He already paid off his $300k student loan. He went to an expensive 8-yr BS/MD program.

Below is my work schedule for January 2020. I will work 12 days straight (from Jan 11th to Jan 22nd) to make up for the days that I will take off during this Xmas break. To many medical residents and physicians , this work schedule is normal. But to many of my dental colleagues, this is crazy.
View attachment 289129

Thank you for the response. Our hours definitely suck for most specialities. All I wanted to point out was the notion that “medical resident = 60k/year” that often gets thrown around on sdn. Lot of posters lurking have no idea that we can moonlight and how much you can make in residency. Working less hours for more money can also be achieved in medicine (ER/psyc etc) neither of which are that competitive. There are options in medicine. Whether it’s a good or bad option is upto the student.

 

[P7898]

Oh wow I love the sample sizes of these studies that everyone takes seriously (said no one ever). I think you can get all of these sample sizes in CA on like one street. Come on people. If you want to know income for real in your area go and shadow your local providers in multiple settings and multiple incidences. Know what insurance reimburses for certain procedures and tally on your own or make a relationship and ask. If you want to make money - work for it. If you want something handed to you and not to work then......(I don't have a good example for this).

 

[Cold Front]

Oh wow I love the sample sizes of these studies that everyone takes seriously (said no one ever). I think you can get all of these sample sizes in CA on like one street. Come on people. If you want to know income for real in your area go and shadow your local providers in multiple settings and multiple incidences. Know what insurance reimburses for certain procedures and tally on your own or make a relationship and ask. If you want to make money - work for it. If you want something handed to you and not to work then......(I don't have a good example for this).

That’s what I did. I asked my local Henry Schein rep to give me the local scoop of what the other offices charge. The reps are usually ok with sharing that information, but they will remove the office name and the doctor information from the report. The catch is, your local HS rep has to be you dental supplier during the process. Once you get that fees report, you can drop the supplier for a cheaper one - like Net32 in my case.


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[ToothJockey]

That’s the thing with inflation. $200k/yr income today will feel like $180k in 10 years, or $160k in 20 years - at 1% inflation rate a year. So imagine what 2% or even 3% a year could do?

30-40 years ago, inflation jumped about 10% or more each year. Only 1 in 5 people who work today remembers those wild years when inflation was eating into their purchase power every year. The rest haven’t seen inflation over 3-4%. If inflation jumps significantly (over 5%) in the future, it will weaken all the doctorate level healthcare professions income, specially when the current tax breaks expire in 2025 - which will push the net income down even further.

So, how do you fight the risks of inflation as a dentist? Work harder every year, stay healthy, and hope the insurance industry (the primary source of a dentist’s income) doesn’t continue to cut reimbursement rates for dental services.


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Yeah, I just did the calculations, and at a 3% inflation rate, an income of 372k in 2040 will be equivalent to 200k in 2019. Making 200k in 2040 will essentially be like making 100k today. So if dental income doesn't increase, that is the reality we are looking at.

Inflation Calculator 2025 - Calculate U.S. Inflation by Year

SmartAsset's inflation calculator can help you determine how inflation affects the value of your current funds. Check it out here.

smartasset.com

How many of you would be able to pay a mortgage, pay student loans, pay dental practice loans etc. on an equivalent of 100k a year?

Oh wow I love the sample sizes of these studies that everyone takes seriously (said no one ever). I think you can get all of these sample sizes in CA on like one street. Come on people. If you want to know income for real in your area go and shadow your local providers in multiple settings and multiple incidences. Know what insurance reimburses for certain procedures and tally on your own or make a relationship and ask. If you want to make money - work for it. If you want something handed to you and not to work then......(I don't have a good example for this).

Yeah I couldn't care less what the actual numbers are on the study. I know sample sizes are small, and most doctors probably fudge their numbers somehow. What I care about is the TREND in income #'s. I'm not gonna ask my local dentists what they make, I don't care...it is completely irrelevant to what dental economics will be like in 10+ years.

 

[2TH MVR]

[QUOTE="charlestweed, post: 21448f a new grad dentist is willling to work hard like the medical residents (working 6-7 days/week and traveling to work. But I don't think a lot of dentists are willing to put in the same amount of work hours as the medical residents and practicing physicians.

[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure most of us became dentists for the lifestyle. Be our own bosses. Own a practice. Work reasonable hours. If I was a predent and I was told to work 6 days a week and multiple locations .... Well ... You might as well go into medicine. Same hours, but better income.

 

[Cold Front]

[QUOTE="charlestweed, post: 21448f a new grad dentist is willling to work hard like the medical residents (working 6-7 days/week and traveling to work. But I don't think a lot of dentists are willing to put in the same amount of work hours as the medical residents and practicing physicians.

Pretty sure most of us became dentists for the lifestyle. Be our own bosses. Own a practice. Work reasonable hours. If I was a predent and I was told to work 6 days a week and multiple locations .... Well ... You might as well go into medicine. Same hours, but better income.[/QUOTE]
That’s been the constant theme in the dental forums. To be, or not to be. Autonomy with good income versus a guaranteed higher income and better benefits. Dentistry versus Medicine. Evil versus... nevermind!

I have a young brother who is a cardio-anesthesiologist. He did 4 yrs MD, 5 yrs residency (paid at about $50k/yr) and 1 yr fellowship (also $50k a year). His first job started him at $350k plus 5 weeks paid vacation. 2 yrs later, he gets a partnership opportunity from his group - and his income jumps to $650k a year with 10 weeks paid vacation + 401k + profit sharing + free break breakfast and lunch buffet at work for life. I guess the point is, the selling point in medicine is not the long road - but the destination. Dentistry is almost the opposite, the selling point is the short road and the financial independence. The reality is, dentistry got way more complicated as a profession over the years - and it’s still a short road, but the financial independence has become a very illusive process and only a few can find it.


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[charlestweed]

Pretty sure most of us became dentists for the lifestyle. Be our own bosses. Own a practice. Work reasonable hours. If I was a predent and I was told to work 6 days a week and multiple locations .... Well ... You might as well go into medicine.

The problem is not every predent/college student has good enough GPAs and is capable of doing well on the MCAT to get into med schools. Medical schools only accept the best and the brightest applicants. I know it’s getting harder to get into dental schools in recent years but it’s still far easier than getting into med schools.

Same hours, but better income.

I disagree. If you take the total income and divide it by the total hours that you work, we, dentists/orthodontists, make more $$$ per hour. I choose to work on Saturdays and Sundays because it’s much easier to find P/T assistants to help me on the weekends (they have other jobs during weekdays). With more P/T assistants (6-7 assistants instead of just 3 assistants that I get at the corp office), I can see 60-100 patients in just 4 hours (from 8am-12noon). I choose to work on the weekends because I don’t want to work 8 hours a day….so I can spend time with my kids. Working on weekends is my personal choice and not because I have to. At least I enjoy what I am doing.....and not a lot of people think like me about their jobs. Being an owner, I can set whatever time I want to see my patients. The doctors cannot do that. Doctors have to give up their own freedom, their personal time to save other people’s lives…to avoid getting lawsuits. That's why I have high respect for doctors....they work much harder than us (both during schools and after graduation) but they are not compensated well enough.

I have so much free time, especially on the days that I work for the corp offices…….that’s why I’ve visited this forum very regularly for the last 10+ years to relieve the boredom at work.

 

[ToothJockey]

The problem is not every predent/college student has good enough GPAs and is capable of doing well on the MCAT to get into med schools. Medical schools only accept the best and the brightest applicants. I know it’s getting harder to get into dental schools in recent years but it’s still far easier than getting into med schools.

they work much harder than us (both during schools and after graduation) but they are not compensated well enough.

I disagree on these two points. The difference in GPA between Med and Dental school is a whopping 0.1
That's not even taking into account other ways to sneak into medicine such as Caribbean and DO.

Dentistry isn't something people do as a backup to medicine anymore. I have a higher GPA than 99.99999% of premeds at my university, yet I'm still going dental most likely. My classes are literally 80% pre-med, and more than half of those will end up med students one day. I can tell you, these kids are not nearly as "bright" as you think they are.

And MCAT vs DAT, yeah MCAT is probably more difficult, but it's irrelevant because it's all standardized. The only thing that matters is percentiles. If a test is more difficult, it is more difficult for everyone, and if a test is easy, it is easy for everyone. All that matters is if you do better than everyone else taking that specific exam.

On the second point..working hard, that all depends on the individual, and it is a subjective metric. Physicians are compensated very well. In private practice the average ortho surgeon makes 500-600k, the average neurosurgeon makes 700k+. A top quartile ortho spine surgeon is bringing home $1 million a year or more. Even dermatologists, whose jobs are probably about as easy as Orthodontics (<40 hrs per week, not physically demanding), they make 450k+.

If anything, dentists are severely under compensated. Many associates are out there grinding for barely 120k a year.

 

[2TH MVR]

If anything, dentists are severely under compensated. Many associates are out there grinding for barely 120K a year.

Exactly. 120-150K a year just seems like peanuts. I work in that Corp environment after 25 yrs of private practice. I see it 1st hand. The new GPs are rushing around doing procedures with no end in sight. Constant GP turnover because there is no pride or purpose in working Corp except to make money. Yes. The specialists make more money. Probably 2X as much, but the sentiment at working at these mills is still the same.

So to incur $400K plus in DS loans with an end game of working at a Corp 6 days a week making maybe 120-180K plus seems short sighted. Especially with the work to become a dentist in the 1st place. Now add the stagnating dentist salary to this. Excalating inflation. Saturation in the urban areas.

Things have changed. Dentistry was once it's own island. Be your own boss. Own your own business. Make great money and work 4 days per week. We were the envy of our MD neighbors (I know I was 😀 ) mostly due to our lifestyle. 4 days a week. Never on call. No emergencies. 7am-4pm,9-6pm hours. Work M-Thurs. Golf on fridays. Weekends with the family. Oh ... I miss those days.

So now .... new grads need to work 6 days a week. Initially is ok, but not as a career. Kind of makes medicine with their larger Corp entities a better option than the smaller, cheaper, retail oriented dental corps.

I have so much free time, especially on the days that I work for the corp offices…….that’s why I’ve visited this forum very regularly for the last 10+ years to relieve the boredom at work.

Tweed ..... that's not free time while you work at the Corp. I understand what you're saying since I also have the same "free" time, but you are still at WORK.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[charlestweed]

I disagree on these two points. The difference in GPA between Med and Dental school is a whopping 0.1
That's not even taking into account other ways to sneak into medicine such as Caribbean and DO.

Dentistry isn't something people do as a backup to medicine anymore. I have a higher GPA than 99.99999% of premeds at my university, yet I'm still going dental most likely. My classes are literally 80% pre-med, and more than half of those will end up med students one day. I can tell you, these kids are not nearly as "bright" as you think they are.

And MCAT vs DAT, yeah MCAT is probably more difficult, but it's irrelevant because it's all standardized. The only thing that matters is percentiles. If a test is more difficult, it is more difficult for everyone, and if a test is easy, it is easy for everyone. All that matters is if you do better than everyone else taking that specific exam.

On the second point..working hard, that all depends on the individual, and it is a subjective metric. Physicians are compensated very well. In private practice the average ortho surgeon makes 500-600k, the average neurosurgeon makes 700k+. A top quartile ortho spine surgeon is bringing home $1 million a year or more. Even dermatologists, whose jobs are probably about as easy as Orthodontics (<40 hrs per week, not physically demanding), they make 450k+.

If anything, dentists are severely under compensated. Many associates are out there grinding for barely 120k a year.

You can cite all the stats you want. I have relatives and friends, whose sons and daughters applied to med schools and dental schools. We, asian people, are only interested in these 2 health fields. So I know what I am talking about. Med schools are much harder to get into period. Not everyone can be a doctor.

$500k/year is not that much for an orthopedic surgeon, who has to work 60+hours a week, at irregular hours, and on the weekends. When he is at home, he continues to take phone calls from the hospital staff. A dentist who has an annual income of $350k and works 40 hours/week, makes more money per hour than an orthopedic surgeon. When the dentists are at home, they don't have to think about work and about post op complications like the surgeons.

Orthopedic surgeon: $500k/12 months/4 weeks/60 hours = $174 per hour.

A private practice dentist: $350k/12 months/4 weeks/40 hours = $182 per hour.

Me (an orthodontist): work 22 days/month: 11 days/month, 4 hours/day at my own offices and 11 days/month, 8 hours/day at corp offices. So my total work hours = 132 hours/month = 33 hours/week = half as much as that of the orthopedic surgeon. And my assistants do 90% of the manual labors.....no call, no back pain, mostly young healthy patients....more than half of the patients pay cash (no insurance BS).

Unlike the dentists, the surgeons cannot just pick certain time slot that they want to perform the surgeries on their patients. They have to reserve the operating rooms in advance. They have to wait for the anesthesiologists, who may show up late because they too are busy taking care of other patients. Not every surgical procedure goes according to plan and without any complication.

 

[charlestweed]

Tweed ..... that's not free time while you work at the Corp. I understand what you're saying since I also have the same "free" time, but you are still at WORK.

Our general dentist friends at the corp work nonstop, work through lunch, and usually go home late. We are getting paid $200+ an hour for sitting around doing nothing.....taking 2 hour lunch....going home 30 minutes before the shift ends..... and yet, we are complaining about having to show up for work.

 

[LFA20]

You can cite all the stats you want. I have relatives and friends, whose sons and daughters applied to med schools and dental schools. We, asian people, are only interested in these 2 health fields. So I know what I am talking about. Med schools are much harder to get into period. Not everyone can be a doctor.

$500k/year is not that much for an orthopedic surgeon, who has to work 60+hours a week, at irregular hours, and on the weekends. When he is at home, he continues to take phone calls from the hospital staff. A dentist who has an annual income of $350k and works 40 hours/week, makes more money per hour than an orthopedic surgeon. When the dentists are at home, they don't have to think about work and about post op complications like the surgeon.

Orthopedic surgeon: $500k/12 months/4 weeks/60 hours = $174 per hour.

A private practice dentist: $350k/12 months/4 weeks/40 hours = $182 per hour.

Me (an orthodontist): work 22 days/month: 11 days/month, 4 hours/day at my own offices and 11 days/month, 8 hours/day at corp offices. So my total work hours = 132 hours/month = 33 hours/week = half as much as that of the orthopedic surgeon. And my assistants do 90% of the manual labors.....no call, no back pain, mostly young healthy patients....more than half of the patients pay cash (no insurance BS).

Unlike the dentists, the surgeon cannot just pick certain time slot that they want to perform the surgeries on their patients. They have to reserve the operating rooms in advance. They have to wait for the anesthesiologists, who may show up late because they too are busy taking care of other patients. Not every surgical procedure goes according to plan and without any complication.

lol you forgot about engineering. Basically everything that gives you a high salary and prestige..

source: I’m asian

 

[yappy]

Medicine appears to be the smart choice today. Dentistry is oversold and medicine is undersold. I think it's wise for predents to consider both because in today's environment a competitive applicant for dental school can get into medical school (DO if necessary). However, no one knows the future so I think it's best to go for what you really want to do while minimizing debt.

Edit: just wanted to 100% agree with @ToothJockey that as a general dentist I feel underpaid taking into consideration the career options I had and the amount of GRINDING I have to do.

 

[P7898]

You can cite all the stats you want. I have relatives and friends, whose sons and daughters applied to med schools and dental schools. We, asian people, are only interested in these 2 health fields. So I know what I am talking about. Med schools are much harder to get into period. Not everyone can be a doctor.

$500k/year is not that much for an orthopedic surgeon, who has to work 60+hours a week, at irregular hours, and on the weekends. When he is at home, he continues to take phone calls from the hospital staff. A dentist who has an annual income of $350k and works 40 hours/week, makes more money per hour than an orthopedic surgeon. When the dentists are at home, they don't have to think about work and about post op complications like the surgeons.

Orthopedic surgeon: $500k/12 months/4 weeks/60 hours = $174 per hour.

A private practice dentist: $350k/12 months/4 weeks/40 hours = $182 per hour.

Me (an orthodontist): work 22 days/month: 11 days/month, 4 hours/day at my own offices and 11 days/month, 8 hours/day at corp offices. So my total work hours = 132 hours/month = 33 hours/week = half as much as that of the orthopedic surgeon. And my assistants do 90% of the manual labors.....no call, no back pain, mostly young healthy patients....more than half of the patients pay cash (no insurance BS).

Unlike the dentists, the surgeons cannot just pick certain time slot that they want to perform the surgeries on their patients. They have to reserve the operating rooms in advance. They have to wait for the anesthesiologists, who may show up late because they too are busy taking care of other patients. Not every surgical procedure goes according to plan and without any complication.

Agreed with you charlestweed. Family member is a physician and by god he wishes he did dentistry. At some point in your life free time will matter more than money. Plus at the end of the day taxes destroy you so $500k vs $350 is not a HUGE difference after taxes to the point where you are spending 20+ hours a week in a more stressful environment. Worst day for a lot of dentists is the dang crown doesn't sit right....those crazy lab techs! Worst day for an ortho surg.....well you know.

Whoops I forgot I was comparing ortho to ortho surg.... my god...

 

[ToothJockey]

You can cite all the stats you want. I have relatives and friends, whose sons and daughters applied to med schools and dental schools. We, asian people, are only interested in these 2 health fields. So I know what I am talking about. Med schools are much harder to get into period. Not everyone can be a doctor.

$500k/year is not that much for an orthopedic surgeon, who has to work 60+hours a week, at irregular hours, and on the weekends. When he is at home, he continues to take phone calls from the hospital staff. A dentist who has an annual income of $350k and works 40 hours/week, makes more money per hour than an orthopedic surgeon. When the dentists are at home, they don't have to think about work and about post op complications like the surgeons.

Orthopedic surgeon: $500k/12 months/4 weeks/60 hours = $174 per hour.

A private practice dentist: $350k/12 months/4 weeks/40 hours = $182 per hour.

Me (an orthodontist): work 22 days/month: 11 days/month, 4 hours/day at my own offices and 11 days/month, 8 hours/day at corp offices. So my total work hours = 132 hours/month = 33 hours/week = half as much as that of the orthopedic surgeon. And my assistants do 90% of the manual labors.....no call, no back pain, mostly young healthy patients....more than half of the patients pay cash (no insurance BS).

Unlike the dentists, the surgeons cannot just pick certain time slot that they want to perform the surgeries on their patients. They have to reserve the operating rooms in advance. They have to wait for the anesthesiologists, who may show up late because they too are busy taking care of other patients. Not every surgical procedure goes according to plan and without any complication.

Dr. Tweed, stats are all that matter!! It is the only way to look at this objectively, without any personal bias. If you want anecdotes, let me give you an anecdote. I go to a large state flagship University, which sends 100's of students to Med School every year. I'm in classes filled with future Med Students. If you saw how long it takes most premeds to grasp simple biological and physical/organic chemical concepts, you would gasp. I don't really consider myself bright, but these guys make me look like Albert Einstein. This concept that people have that physicians are the next coming of Jesus is really wacky, I've seen first hand that they are just regular people like you and me. Again, the difference between a med and dental student is only a 0.1 GPA, that's it, period. And when you factor in DO and Carribean, getting into medicine is easier than getting into dentistry.

Also, why did you pick 350k as the income for a private practice dentist? That would be like 90th percentile. A 90th percentile Orthopod is making closer to 900k-1 million a year than 500k. Yeah they are working more, but they are earning disproportionately more. Their future is secure. Economy down? They don't care, if someone tears an ACL, they won't wait for the economy to go back up before getting treatment. Not the same for dentistry, especially orthodontics, as you should know. Student loans high? They don't care, they are making a million a year. And what about an Orthopod who does elective procedures, their lives are as about as chill as a dentist, with much higher financial security.

Why not look at a Dermatologist then, <40 hrs a week, 450k average income, not physically tiring at all, considering they prescribe acne creams to prepubescent teens all day.

Dentists should stop treating themselves like they are overpaid, because compared to their counterparts in medicine they are underpaid, big time. It's not about being greedy for money, it's about being paid what you're worth. Dentists provide a valuable service, they improve the populations oral health and overall health. Their services are no less important than a dermatologist, a family physician, a gastroenterologist etc...

A future where dentists can barely make rent due to burden of loans is not one that is good for the oral health of America. Dentists will have pressure to overtreat to pay the bills, lower quality students will be entering dental schools due to lowered competitiveness, which will lower the quality of care. The oral health of Americans will suffer...

 

[P7898]

Dr. Tweed, stats are all that matter!! It is the only way to look at this objectively, without any personal bias. If you want anecdotes, let me give you an anecdote. I go to a large state flagship University, which sends 100's of students to Med School every year. I'm in classes filled with future Med Students. If you saw how long it takes most premeds to grasp simple biological and physical/organic chemical concepts, you would gasp. I don't really consider myself bright, but these guys make me look like Albert Einstein. This concept that people have that physicians are the next coming of Jesus is really wacky, I've seen first hand that they are just regular people like you and me. Again, the difference between a med and dental student is only a 0.1 GPA, that's it, period. And when you factor in DO and Carribean, getting into medicine is easier than getting into dentistry.

Also, why did you pick 350k as the income for a private practice dentist? That would be like 90th percentile. A 90th percentile Orthopod is making closer to 900k-1 million a year than 500k. Yeah they are working more, but they are earning disproportionately more. Their future is secure. Economy down? They don't care, if someone tears an ACL, they won't wait for the economy to go back up before getting treatment. Not the same for dentistry, especially orthodontics, as you should know. Student loans high? They don't care, they are making a million a year. And what about an Orthopod who does elective procedures, their lives are as about as chill as a dentist, with much higher financial security.

Why not look at a Dermatologist then, <40 hrs a week, 450k average income, not physically tiring at all, considering they prescribe acne creams to prepubescent teens all day.

Dentists should stop treating themselves like they are overpaid, because compared to their counterparts in medicine they are underpaid, big time. It's not about being greedy for money, it's about being paid what you're worth. Dentists provide a valuable service, they improve the populations oral health and overall health. Their services are no less important than a dermatologist, a family physician, a gastroenterologist etc...

A future where dentists can barely make rent due to burden of loans is not one that is good for the oral health of America. Dentists will have pressure to overtreat to pay the bills, lower quality students will be entering dental schools due to lowered competitiveness, which will lower the quality of care. The oral health of Americans will suffer...

Dude or Mam..... he is an orthodontist and has been practicing longer than you have been alive probably........... he compared it to the stats you had for an orthodontist. Orthodontist.

Derm is good. But if you want to work 50-60 hours a week as a dentist make sure you condition your body....but the money will come. I mean I know a guy that had to work 60 hours a week for the first year and then jumped ship to 4 days but he was cranking $350-$400k as an associate at two jobs.

 

[ToothJockey]

Dude or Mam..... he is an orthodontist and has been practicing longer than you have been alive probably........... he compared it to the stats you had for an orthodontist. Orthodontist.

Derm is good. But if you want to work 50-60 hours a week as a dentist make sure you condition your body....but the money will come. I mean I know a guy that had to work 60 hours a week for the first year and then jumped ship to 4 days but he was cranking $350-$400k as an associate at two jobs.

He never specified orthodontist, he said “a private practice dentist”.

But yeah, I agree it’s not fair to compare a general dentist to an Orthopod anyways, one is a specialist and one is a GP.

And that just further proves my point, he has been practicing longer than I have been alive. Admissions were very different when he was applying to dental schools, than it is today. Not to mention he IS the golden age of dentistry. His viewpoint is from someone living the good life. Not from someone entering the profession today.

The mentality that dentistry is easy, and dentists are overpaid, is only going to hurt the profession further, wouldn’t you agree? It makes it seem as if dentists don’t provide a valuable service. You ever see a plastic surgeon making 2 million a year doing celebrity boob jobs say he’s overpaid? Naaaaa


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[charlestweed]

Dr. Tweed, stats are all that matter!! It is the only way to look at this objectively, without any personal bias. If you want anecdotes, let me give you an anecdote. I go to a large state flagship University, which sends 100's of students to Med School every year. I'm in classes filled with future Med Students. If you saw how long it takes most premeds to grasp simple biological and physical/organic chemical concepts, you would gasp. I don't really consider myself bright, but these guys make me look like Albert Einstein. This concept that people have that physicians are the next coming of Jesus is really wacky, I've seen first hand that they are just regular people like you and me. Again, the difference between a med and dental student is only a 0.1 GPA, that's it, period. And when you factor in DO and Carribean, getting into medicine is easier than getting into dentistry.

Also, why did you pick 350k as the income for a private practice dentist? That would be like 90th percentile. A 90th percentile Orthopod is making closer to 900k-1 million a year than 500k. Yeah they are working more, but they are earning disproportionately more. Their future is secure. Economy down? They don't care, if someone tears an ACL, they won't wait for the economy to go back up before getting treatment. Not the same for dentistry, especially orthodontics, as you should know. Student loans high? They don't care, they are making a million a year. And what about an Orthopod who does elective procedures, their lives are as about as chill as a dentist, with much higher financial security.

Why not look at a Dermatologist then, <40 hrs a week, 450k average income, not physically tiring at all, considering they prescribe acne creams to prepubescent teens all day.

Dentists should stop treating themselves like they are overpaid, because compared to their counterparts in medicine they are underpaid, big time. It's not about being greedy for money, it's about being paid what you're worth. Dentists provide a valuable service, they improve the populations oral health and overall health. Their services are no less important than a dermatologist, a family physician, a gastroenterologist etc...

A future where dentists can barely make rent due to burden of loans is not one that is good for the oral health of America. Dentists will have pressure to overtreat to pay the bills, lower quality students will be entering dental schools due to lowered competitiveness, which will lower the quality of care. The oral health of Americans will suffer...

If you re-read my previous post, I agreed that it's getting harder for dental school now than when I applied years ago. Even right now, getting into dental schools is still a lot easier than getting med schools. I have nieces and nephews who are currently in med schools and dental schools. My wife and I are actively helping our kids (who are still in HS) to prepare for their future education because we want them to get into med schools like their cousins. Having good GPA and MCAT score is not good enough for med schools, especially if you have an Asian last name. You need other things like doing research, minoring in another field as well....and these things require additional time, effort, and sacrifice.

Making $1million/year is still under-compensated for all the things that the surgeons have to give up...their youth years and their time for their family. They worked hard to get into med schools. While in med schools, they continued to hard to be the top student in their class so they could match to orthopedic surgery residency. And during surgery trainings, they worked like dogs. When they got out, they continue to work 60+ hours a week. I hate to keep repeating myself again and again...and that is the harder you work earlier in your life, the greater the reward later. The more hours you work, the more money you make. You can't expect to make more money as a dentist, when you only spend 4 years in dental school and you also work less hours per week than an orthopedic surgeon.....unless you have great business skills like Coldfront, who hires associates to make money for him.

Oh, about the DO and the Carribean grad people.... their chance of getting into highly paid specialties like derm, Orthopedic, GI is very slim...most of them end up working as primary care doctors, which is the pretty much the same as working as associate general dentists.

My cousing is an MD anethesiologist. According to him, people did defer to get the surgeries done during hard economic time. His income did drop during the recession.

BTW, don't call me Dr.......Charles is fine.

 

[ToothJockey]

If you re-read my previous post, I agreed that it's getting harder for dental school now than when I applied years ago. Even right now, getting into dental schools is still a lot easier than getting med schools. I have nieces and nephews who are currently in med schools and dental schools. My wife and I are actively helping our kids (who are still in HS) to prepare for their future education because we want them to get into med schools like their cousins. Having good GPA and MCAT score is not good enough for med schools, especially if you have an Asian last name. You need other things like doing research, minoring in another field as well....and these things require additional time, effort, and sacrifice.

Making $1million/year is still under-compensated for all the things that the surgeons have to give up...their youth years and their time for their family. They worked hard to get into med schools. While in med schools, they continued to hard to be the top student in their class so they could match to orthopedic surgery residency. And during surgery trainings, they worked like a dog. When they got out, they continue to work 60+ hours a week. I hate to keep repeating myself again and again...and that is the harder you work earlier in your life, the greater the reward later. The more hours you work, the more money you make. You can't expect to make more money as a dentist, when you only spend 4 years in dental school and you also work less hours per week than an orthopedic surgeon.....unless you have great business skills like Coldfront, who hires associates to make money for him.

Oh, about the DO and the Carribean grad people.... their chance of getting into highly paid specialties like derm, Orthopedic, GI is very slim...most of them end up working as primary care doctors, which is the pretty much same as working as associate general dentists.

My cousing is an MD anethesiologist. According to him, people did defer to get the surgeries done during hard economic time. His income did drop during the recession.

BTW, don't call me Dr.......Charles is fine.

Alright, Charles, points duly noted. I just wanna say, dental students work really hard too, and they make lots of sacrifices also. Take an Oral Surgeon for example, they have to sacrifice as much as an Orthopedic Surgeon, yet they are not compensated like Orthopods. So why is it you say dentists are overcompensated, but physicians are undercompensated?
Take an orthodontist like yourself for example, or an endodontist, why are they overcompensated earning average salaries of 300k or so, when a dermatologist who has to take on much less loans, and only 1 more year of training, is earning 450k+? They both work the same amount of hours, have about the same amount of training etc...

And another thing to note, a primary care doctor makes almost double the salary of an associate dentist, ~250k a year vs 130k a year.

And I'm sure physician incomes do drop during a recession, but not to the scale of dental incomes. It's because people don't understand the importance of dental care. When I was volunteering at a dental clinic, there were so many patients that straight up ignored dental care, and all of a sudden now their mouth was a mess and they had to get half their teeth removed.

 

[AONLINE]

You can cite all the stats you want. I have relatives and friends, whose sons and daughters applied to med schools and dental schools. We, asian people, are only interested in these 2 health fields. So I know what I am talking about.

Lol you forgot about pharmacy, Dr. Charlestweed. Somehow that is still seen as a prestigious thing in the Asian community. Most Asian parents have no clue about the pharmacy job crisis or how desperately pharmacy schools need to fill their seats to the point that they will take anybody. Asian people are just proud that their son or daughter will graduate pharm school and become a “doctor.”
Someone mentioned engineering. I think that depends on the specific culture. My Asian family does not see engineering as prestigious, most of my relatives look down on engineering because it is just a 4-year degree and thus “a dime a dozen” (their words, not mine).



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[Cold Front]

Exactly. 120-150K a year just seems like peanuts. I work in that Corp environment after 25 yrs of private practice. I see it 1st hand. The new GPs are rushing around doing procedures with no end in sight. Constant GP turnover because there is no pride or purpose in working Corp except to make money. Yes. The specialists make more money. Probably 2X as much, but the sentiment at working at these mills is still the same.

So to incur $400K plus in DS loans with an end game of working at a Corp 6 days a week making maybe 120-180K plus seems short sighted. Especially with the work to become a dentist in the 1st place. Now add the stagnating dentist salary to this. Excalating inflation. Saturation in the urban areas.

Things have changed. Dentistry was once it's own island. Be your own boss. Own your own business. Make great money and work 4 days per week. We were the envy of our MD neighbors (I know I was ) mostly due to our lifestyle. 4 days a week. Never on call. No emergencies. 7am-4pm,9-6pm hours. Work M-Thurs. Golf on fridays. Weekends with the family. Oh ... I miss those days.

WE NEED FEWER DENTISTS!!!

If the current trajectory of dentistry continues, it will enter a phase of low enrollment at high cost dental schools, and that would mean fewer and fewer new grads - which will give the dental insurance industry a well overdue wake up call. Insurances understand the supply of dentists relative to their members today is why they can bully dentists to stagnant reimbursement rates. If enrollment goes down and retirement goes up - demand for dentists will go up, and insurances will scramble for dentists that will see their members as patients, and then finally dentists can be reimbursed better than inflation. Income will surge if this series of events happens - which I think it will if student loans hit a critical point - maybe when 1 in 3 schools charge close to $200k a year.

Some schools like USC and Midwestern already charge about $150k a year today. 10 years ago those schools were charging $100k a year - they will charge $200k 10 years from now if they raise their tuition and fees every year by an average of 3%, which has been the target benchmark for the last decade or so.

So again, nothing will change in the short term because more new schools are joining the circus and bigger class size of existing schools, along with accrediting foreign schools (look at California for instance) are saturating all key markets for dental insurances, which plays very well to their hands - because if a dentist refuses to join their network, there will be a long line of other dentists who will.

The old adage holds that inflation is too many dollars chasing too few goods. Schools are too greedy to slow down supply of dentists, but eventually - they will, by going too far with their tuition and fees. Just look at the USC tuition threads I post every year. I predict they will charge $155k in cost of attendance for their next first year class (2020-2021).

USC First YR Cost of Attendance $149k 2019-2020

I post the USC first year cost of attendance every year, and the new 2019-2020 academic year numbers are another record for the school. All numbers are based on both first year direct (tuition and fees) and indirect costs (budget for living, room and board, etc). 2012: $114k (4% increase)...

forums.studentdoctor.net

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[ToothJockey]

WE NEED FEWER DENTISTS!!!

If the current trajectory of dentistry continues, it will enter a phase of low enrollment at high cost dental schools, and that would mean fewer and fewer new grads - which will give the dental insurance industry a well overdue wake up call. Insurances understand the supply of dentists relative to their members today is why they can bully dentists to stagnant reimbursement rates. If enrollment goes down and retirement goes up - demand for dentists will go up, and insurances will scramble for dentists that will see their members as patients, and then finally dentists can be reimbursed better than inflation. Income will surge if this series of events happens - which I think it will if student loans hit a critical point - maybe when 1 in 3 schools charge close to $200k a year.

Some schools like USC and Midwestern already charge about $150k a year today. 10 years ago those schools were charging $100k a year - they will charge $200k 10 years from now if they raise their tuition and fees every year by an average of 3%, which has been the target benchmark for the last decade or so.

So again, nothing will change in the short term because more new schools are joining the circus and bigger class size of existing schools, along with accrediting foreign schools (look at California for instance) are saturating all key markets for dental insurances, which plays very well to their hands - because if a dentist refuses to join their network, there will be a long line of other dentists who will.

The old adage holds that inflation is too many dollars chasing too few goods. Schools are too greedy to slow down supply of dentists, but eventually - they will, by going too far with their tuition and fees. Just look at the USC tuition threads I post every year. I predict they will charge $155k in cost of attendance for their next first year class (2020-2021).

USC First YR Cost of Attendance $149k 2019-2020

I post the USC first year cost of attendance every year, and the new 2019-2020 academic year numbers are another record for the school. All numbers are based on both first year direct (tuition and fees) and indirect costs (budget for living, room and board, etc). 2012: $114k (4% increase)...

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To add on to your points, according to this graphic dental enrollment peaked at over 6k in 1980. Now it is back over 6k. In the 90's, when the golden age of dentistry probably started, the enrollment was relatively low at around 4k.

http://www.ada.org/~/media/ADA/Science%20and%20Research/HPI/Files/HPIgraphic_0416_1.pdf?la=en

At the very least it shows its possible for schools to close and enrollment #'s to go way down.

 

[TanMan]

From an individual dentist perspective, dentists are underpaid. From a practice owner's perspective, dentists are overpaid.

Physicians have it much rougher - from getting in all the way to competing for competitive/lifestyle specialties. Getting into dental school is a relative cakewalk compared to getting into medical school. Our boards are easier and more forgiving and we don't have the long grueling hours of most physicians nor required residencies. Even those that went into derm had to put in a lot of time to get where they are at (lots of studying, research, being at the top consistently, etc...).. They also have a lot more responsibility that us. With all that physicians sacrifice, they are undercompensated. There's easier ways to make a million a year without going through all that work.

I don't particularly believe the numbers that were released. They look too even/rounded to be real numbers and the sample size seems pretty small. If these numbers are to be believed, then you might as well not pursue dentistry at all.

And I'm sure physician incomes do drop during a recession, but not to the scale of dental incomes. It's because people don't understand the importance of dental care. When I was volunteering at a dental clinic, there were so many patients that straight up ignored dental care, and all of a sudden now their mouth was a mess and they had to get half their teeth removed.

Patients who ignore dental care is like a maturing investment. At some point, I'm going to be back and get paid for it. Either pay for a fill now or pay me to ext/graft or rct later on. Even if they got half their teeth removed, they'll need teeth at some point, and in the end, they will end up paying more than if they took care of it early on. Happens all the time at the office and we get people from 2-3 years ago who end up needing root canals or crowns. That's why I'm not pushy on treatment. If you want it, get it, if not, see you in a few years. Patient autonomy - I'm not your mom. Although many times, their mom will pay for their treatment.

 

[ToothJockey]

From an individual dentist perspective, dentists are underpaid. From a practice owner's perspective, dentists are overpaid.

Physicians have it much rougher - from getting in all the way to competing for competitive/lifestyle specialties. Getting into dental school is a relative cakewalk compared to getting into medical school. Our boards are easier and more forgiving and we don't have the long grueling hours of most physicians nor required residencies. Even those that went into derm had to put in a lot of time to get where they are at (lots of studying, research, being at the top consistently, etc...).. They also have a lot more responsibility that us. With all that physicians sacrifice, they are undercompensated. There's easier ways to make a million a year without going through all that work.

I don't particularly believe the numbers that were released. They look too even/rounded to be real numbers and the sample size seems pretty small. If these numbers are to be believed, then you might as well not pursue dentistry at all.



Patients who ignore dental care is like a maturing investment. At some point, I'm going to be back and get paid for it. Either pay for a fill now or pay me to ext/graft or rct later on. Even if they got half their teeth removed, they'll need teeth at some point, and in the end, they will end up paying more than if they took care of it early on. Happens all the time at the office and we get people from 2-3 years ago who end up needing root canals or crowns. That's why I'm not pushy on treatment. If you want it, get it, if not, see you in a few years. Patient autonomy - I'm not your mom. Although many times, their mom will pay for their treatment.

Yeah I hear you, those numbers seem pretty low based on dentists in my area atleast. I've seen CPA benchmarks from dental practices, and they show that dentists are making significantly more than that. But the income trend is concerning nonetheless.

Overpaid is not even a word in my dictionary, this is a capitalist country. Go out there and get that $. Otherwise you get stuck in situations like this:

Dentist needing encouragement with pay expectations, asset allocation - The White Coat Investor Forum - Investing & Personal Finance for Doctors

So I have several updates and feeling a bit overwhelmed with work so I need advise on being an associate dentist and what to expect as normal in this private office world of business,pay negotiations, and asset allocation. First, for you dentists out there please fill me in, as I feel...

www.whitecoatinvestor.com

Man should have moved into ownership a while ago, his income is capped at 200k as an associate, when his potential is easily 350k+ as an owner.
Nobody does their research anymore, everybody is too busy stuffing their head in a organic chemistry textbook.

And definitely, patients should have come for their bi annual 6 month appointment and kept their teeth healthy at a relatively low cost, but they ignored dental care and now all of a sudden they have to pay for expensive root canals, expensive dentures, expensive implants. Sucks to suck.

 

[Cold Front]

To add on to your points, according to this graphic dental enrollment peaked at over 6k in 1980. Now it is back over 6k. In the 90's, when the golden age of dentistry probably started, the enrollment was relatively low at around 4k.

http://www.ada.org/~/media/ADA/Science%20and%20Research/HPI/Files/HPIgraphic_0416_1.pdf?la=en

At the very least it shows its possible for schools to close and enrollment #'s to go way down.

There is no “shortage” of dentists as the government would like us to believe. Every year, they publish more and more dentist-shortage areas and then make a strong case for dental therapists and student loan forgiveness programs for dentists to work in rural areas.

The real problem is the maldistribution of dentists across the country and the over saturation in urban areas. There are no strong incentive programs to address the dentist workforce imbalance issues, which is also the case for medical doctors.

Over 100 rural hospitals closed in this country since I graduated from dental school in 2010 - that’s an average of 10-12 a year. The ones which are still open are either cutting back on departments (usually the labor and delivery) or on the edge of shutting down all together. Young doctors and their families are also not being drawn to rural communities because there is another crisis happening in rural areas - the retail apocalypse. Malls and retail stores are closing at record levels around the country, specially in rural areas - thanks to the boom in online shopping, and more closures are planned next year. So what will a young doctor/dentist and their families do outside work hours?.

Big employers are very reluctant to open their businesses in a rural area today - because their employees will not have close access to retail stores and hospitals (and in many cases dentists). So companies/big employers decide to open their businesses close to big cities - look what happened when amazon searched for the their HQ2 last year. All the shortlisted cities were in big urban cities - and they finally chose NYC and Northern VA, some of the most expensive and saturated communities to live in this country. Why? Because that’s where young people/employees want to live and work.

So we need less (new) dentists to curb the saturation, and so far - the best route seems to be the high tuition and fees to stop it. This would be a weird thing to say - but if all dental schools make their tuitions $200k/year tomorrow, that’s good for the rest of us who are already practicing. So let’s hope every dental school charges more next year - so these young applicants can consider other professions.


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[2TH MVR]

Everybody will have a different opinion of this based on their own anecdotal experiences. Those that are prospering either due to hard work, low OH and low fees (@charlestweed ) and others due to great business skills, great location, etc. etc. will obviously be biased in their posts. I think the point of this post is that dental salaries are going down and/or not keeping up with inflation or other professions such as medicine.

There are many reasons for this which have been mentioned many times here. High DS tuition. Saturation. Corps. Technlogy (ortho. DIY aligners). Too many dentists. Lower insurance reimbursements. Etc. ETc.

I will remind everyone of something I've said over and over. Dentistry has become a retail commodity and de-valued profession. This is the number one economic reason that separates us from our MD counterparts. I spent 4 yrs undergrad. 4 yrs dental school. 3 yrs residency to become an orthodontist. After 11 years of education .... I expected to be a well educated, well-paid, respected professional orthodontic and dentofacial orthopedist. Through ortho tx .... I've changed the lives of many, many patients. Some of the tx outcomes are just mind boggling when you see the initial malocclusion. After ortho tx .... we take final records and I still marvel at the changes I've made for this person. A smile that will help that person the rest of their lives. A priceless treatment.

Now ..... in the present ..... I'm just a ........................................................ 2TH MVR.

The decline started years ago. When orthos started to do FREE consulations. WTF?????? A doctor who spent 11 yrs in college doing FREE consultions. Dentists advertising life time bleaching, $49 exam with prophy, $2400 aligner treatments, cheap braces, $99/month braces. It's a joke. You don't see this with most of medicine. Exceptions: Derm, plastics, etc.

I understand why @charlestweed operates a low fee practice and I respect him for that, but in the end .... his type of practice just continues to erode the value for orthodontics. Where does the low fee end? I mentioned that my Corp office is close to a Risas Dental. Risas advertised a Black Friday SALE on braces. Read that? SALE. $2200 braces or $2400 aligners. Btw. We get tons of Risas patients transferring to our Corp because they soon realize. You get what you pay for.

Yep. The huge, well-informed dental insurance companies are just sitting back and letting the dentist community help them with their insurance profits. Dentists are their own worst enemy. Dentists will continue to lowers fees to attract patients and the insurance companies will average those low fees into the reasonable and customary fee schedule for that region.

I have to throw a bone to the Corp I work for. They've kept their ortho fees higher than the competition. If anything they raised the ortho fees last year to keep up with inflation and OH. They also charge interest for ortho loans for those that do not qualify for 3rd party financing. Yes ... the interest rate is ridiculous. But .... orthodontists are not banks or lenders. My Corp recognizes the value of having orthodontists doing ortho tx rather than Aspen Dental's et al GPs doing aligner tx.

To summarize. Dentistry is heading or is retail. Medicine has it's own issues, but is not entirely commercialized like dentistry. I went to school to become a doctor ..... not just a tooth fixer.

Enough ranting. Time to go walk my lovable dog.

 

[Cold Front]

I have to throw a bone to the Corp I work for. They've kept their ortho fees higher than the competition. If anything they raised the ortho fees last year to keep up with inflation and OH.

Not sure how much the fees are being raised at your Corp office in this Ortho blood bath market. People are still shopping for the cheapest deals - and that’s a huge market to miss out on, just ask Charles.

I’m raising my fees this January by 7%. My schedule (specially the hygienist) is booked out 2-3 months and I want to cut back my office hours from 30 to 28/week. I can afford to do this - many of my patients are urban international communities with some having language barriers, and they’ve been with me since I opened my practices, and I just think that I reached a point in my career that the market will not dictate my fees anymore. Plus I don’t think working harder is not the best strategy going forward for me. I’ve been at it for 10 years in 6 months, now I can afford to take risks with my fee schedule. We will see.

My wife and I saw Andrea Bocelli perform live last night. I’m looking forward to experiencing more events and traveling in 2020.


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[ToothJockey]

So we need less (new) dentists to curb the saturation, and so far - the best route seems to be the high tuition and fees to stop it. This would be a weird thing to say - but if all dental schools make their tuitions $200k/year tomorrow, that’s good for the rest of us who are already practicing. So let’s hope every dental school charges more next year - so these young applicants can consider other professions.


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Yeah, while everyone has been consumed by the rising cost and loans, I always thought there were silver linings to this. Eventually the problem was going to correct itself. There is nothing we can do about the rising cost, but future generations of dentists will do something about it by simply not applying to dental school. Like you said, correcting the oversaturation issue will correct other issues such as insurance reimbursements etc.
Dentists won't have to keep cutting fees to attract patients because the market won't be as competitive as today.

To summarize. Dentistry is heading or is retail. Medicine has it's own issues, but is not entirely commercialized like dentistry. I went to school to become a doctor ..... not just a tooth fixer.

This definitely hit the nail on the head. Dentists are doctors, they should be treated like doctors not tooth mechanics. After 11 years of schooling, 11 tough years where you had to be at the top of your class, no one should say an orthodontist is overpaid.

 

[2TH MVR]

Not sure how much the fees are being raised at your Corp office in this Ortho blood bath market. People are still shopping for the cheapest deals - and that’s a huge market to miss out on, just ask Charles.

I’m raising my fees this January by 7%.

I’ve been at it for 10 years in 6 months, now I can afford to take risks with my fee schedule. We will see.

Yep. They raised the ortho fees last year. Admittingly .... starts have been down, but they're sticking to their plan. I don't mind. I prefer to see 50-60 patients a day compared to Risas Dental 100 patients per day.

That's the right strategy to raise your fees. Competing in the low fee arena just seems like racing to the bottom of the barrel.

A whole 10 years 😱 . You must be worn out. Shot. Ruined for life. You better pace yourself you ole curmudgeon 😀 . But seriously ....good for you.

 

[charlestweed]

Ortho and general dentistry have been like this (a retail commodity) for a long time, not just in the last 10-15 or so years. Back in 1986, when I first came to America, my dentist gave away free gifts to patients to advertise her office and to attract more patients. Do you know what she gave us? A push-button phone with her office's logo and number on it. There were already dental and orthodontic offices and corp offices everywhere when I was still a HS student. Nothing much has changed here in CA. It's probably better for ortho and dentistry to be like this so our patients continue to pay us cash.

Some doctors emphasize too much about the importance of their time. They spent 11 years to get an ortho certificate; and therefore, they feel they are entilted to getting paid for consultations. I have plenty of free time watching youtube videos and reading/writting SDN posts while my patients being worked on by my assistants; therefore, I don't mind spending my time to do consultations for free. Ortho is no brain surgery. It should only take 3-5 minutes to examine and to explain things to patients' parents. I don't need to spend time to sell cases since my fee is already very affordable. I don't usually take pano xray for consultations but if I need one, it only costs me 50 cents each. Even when I was still an ortho resident, none of my instructors charged their patients consultation fee in their practices

My patients view my low fee as being honest and they really appreciate it. I don't do phase 1 treatments, unless the patient is a 8-9 yo kid, who has a retrognathic maxilla and needs facemask treatment. I don't give new patients a fancy folder after the initial consultations. I don't give them an office tour. My office's waiting room doesn't look like a Disneyland hotel's lobby with gaming consoles, ipads, and a coffee bar. I am actually very proud of the fact that my office looks like a traditional healthcare facility....and not like a hotel or a car dealership. To me, it's better to save these time and money and use them toward treating the patients. Since the parents don't make a lot of money, they really value the treatments that I provide for their kids. Rich people are more demanding.....they think they can use money to get whatever they want such as dictating the treatments and demanding the doctor to come in at the time that they want.

 

[Cold Front]

A whole 10 years . You must be worn out. Shot. Ruined for life. You better pace yourself you ole curmudgeon . But seriously ....good for you.

Lol it didn’t even feel like 10 years, specially the last 5 years. Someone older once told me, the older you get - the faster time flies.

I don’t play golf on my days off or walk a dog Sunday mornings. I’m a soccer fanatic and watch soccer any free time I have. I follow leagues in England, Spain, Germany, France and Italy. I grew up in Europe, so that’s all I did growing up - sleep, eat and drink soccer (we call it football over there).

I also watch shows on Netflix and other streaming services after work. I read a lot - mostly on current events. Have 50+ channels subscriptions on YouTube. I need to disconnect - including SDN, but here I am positing again like you! lol


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[ToothJockey]

It's probably better for ortho and dentistry to be like this so our patients continue to pay us cash.

That brings up another point, the percentage of cash paying patients has decreased over the years, according to table 3.

 

[2TH MVR]

Rich people are more demanding.....they think they can use money to get whatever they want such as dictating the treatments and demanding the doctor to come in at the time that they want.

Yeah. I don't like rich people either. Driving around in their Teslas. Living in their big houses. Luxury everything.
Just kidding. Just giving you a hard time. 🙂

But you are right. Affluent patients are more demanding and I do not miss treating them. Low income patients are very appreciative of the care they receive.

Things have changed and this "entitled" Baby Boomer still cherishes those early years where patients came to you because of your reputation with past patients, quality treatment and validation from referring dentists.

 

[charlestweed]

That brings up another point, the percentage of cash paying patients has decreased over the years, according to table 3.

The percentage of cash patients have gone down but not approaching zero percent like in medicine. It's always better to get paid from multiple sources and not just from insurances. There are 3rd party financing companies like CareCredit that allow the patients, who don't have dental insurance, to pay for their dental treatments. Since ortho treatments usually take 18-24 months to complete, most orthdontists let their patients make small payments over the period of 18-24 month. More than half of my patients pay cash.