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"ADA approved" toothpaste

Discussion in 'Dental' started by rose786, Mar 8, 2007.

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  1. rose786

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    This post is kind of silly and just to satisfy my curiosity. I'm subscribed to a newsletter that basically has to do with money-saving tips. One lady wrote that the "ADA approved" products in the store are just a scam. She said different brands basically pay a large fee to ADA to become members, and the ADA in return "approves" their products. It further went on to say that any toothpaste sold in the store would work, because they have to be passed by the FDA

    Anyone know anything about this?? I feel like I've been had! :laugh:
     
  2. johntara04

    johntara04 Member
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    If you buy ADA approved toothpaste, you know you are getting a toothpaste that is not too abrasive or not abrasive enough. Also, it has the right amount of flouride in it. The other toothpastes will not be as effective. Stick to the ADA approval rating.
     
  3. Daurang

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    My recommendation to patients is to buy any cheapest toothpaste they can find. I tell some of them to brush with salt or even brush with nothing...just brush. I personally use 10 different kind from Crest to Colgate to Tom's to noname Korean seasalt and ginseng to whatever they hand out at the convention.
     
  4. HuyetKiem

    HuyetKiem Senior Member
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    Salt water works just fine
     
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  5. S Files

    S Files Member
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    no you haven't been had.
     
  6. Drill2Fill

    Drill2Fill DentalStudentWannabe
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    Would salt water really work? I'm just a pre-dent so I don't know if you are joking or not.
     
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  7. OP
    OP
    rose786

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    chillax, it was a joke
     
  8. Midoc

    Midoc Senior Member
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    The key ingredient in toothpaste is fluoride, so long as it isn't excessively abrasive then any toothpaste is about as good as the rest. Some of them have limited usage for certain conditions.
     
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  9. HuyetKiem

    HuyetKiem Senior Member
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    I'd used salt water in my first 22 yrs of life. Not a single cavity.
     
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  10. docj1

    docj1 Walleye Whacker
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    Mechanical removal of plaque is the key(the toothbrush and floss). Toothpaste is to give the flouride and some minor abrasives to help the process. ADA approved brands supply this need.
     
  11. docj1

    docj1 Walleye Whacker
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    My 80 yo uncle has never used anything except baking soda and water to brush and has all his teeth(except 3rds). He has fillings and some crowns, but good oral hygeine and regular dental visits has helped him keep his teeth. I wonder if fl would have made him have less fillings and crowns.
     
  12. ItsGavinC

    Dentist Moderator Emeritus 15+ Year Member

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    Salt has just the right amount of fluoride in it.
     
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  13. mike3kgt

    mike3kgt Hopefully scuba diving
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    Interesting thread. I actually sat down at a dinner one time a few years ago with the acting director of the ADA's council on scientific affairs and the director of the "seal program" of the ADA. Essentially, the seal program is a scientific process that approves ingredients of toothpastes according to scientific review of the products. I.e. scientific research studies have been done over the course of a several year process that proves the claims made on the tubes of the toothpaste or any product are justified by research.

    For example, original Listerine states "kills germs that cause bad breath, plaque & the gum disease Gingivitis" and has the ADA seal of approval. Now take a look at the Listerine Whitening states "safely whitens teeth" yet I could not find any difference in ingredients between the two. Research has found that the active ingredients in Listerine does kill bacteria but I am not aware of any research that states that Listerine Whitening whitens teeth.

    The major reason why some companies do not seek ADA seal approval for all their products is economics & marketing. Simply stated, the cost associated with obtaining the seal of approval is high and the return may not justify the cost. Secondly, marketing is restricted with products that have the seal of approval.. statements must be justified when using the seal on the product. Look at the Sonicare toothbrush. There is no seal of approval provided for this toothbrush but they make a tremendous amount of money regardless of a seal and state the sonic technology cleans teeth MUCH better than regular.

    Now if a patient was to ask me what type of toothpaste I would recommend, I'd probably tell them a product that has the seal and specifically go with my standby of Colgate Total. Same goes for a toothbrush... "just pick any one that has the ADA seal on the front."

    I am a fan of this program and support it in its entirety. For more information, see: http://www.ada.org/ada/seal/faq.asp

    Some may view it as merely a means for profiteering by the ADA... I find this belief irrational. People love a good conspiracy story but fail to look at the obvious.

    -Mike

    P.S. I am one of "The 4 out of 5" :) (Trident)
     
  14. Innomen

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    Like the obvious conflict of interest readily apparent in a group of people handsomely paid to address tooth damage, telling us how to prevent tooth damage?

    http://underlore.com/TBA/?p=329 *shrugs*

    P.S. From Wikiquote.

     
  15. CanuckDDS

    CanuckDDS Junior Member
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    This is great! There are actually people who think like this. Wow, I want to help you?!:rolleyes:

    I love hearing "my dentist gave me a cavity". One of the stupidest sentiments I've ever heard. No, you being a lazy piece of crap "gave you a cavity".

    The writer of this "blog" should stop thinking about ridiculous ways to "cure" tooth disease (A drug which causes the teeth to fall out, so they can then be replaced.!!!) and just brush and floss. We already have this miracle drug man, it is called Sugar. Look that up in Wikipedia.

    It doesn't matter how much you tell ppl that if they are really interested in having a clean check up and no cavities just brush, they'll still come back to see you with 2 days worth of plaque on their $h!tty teeth and say "I brush like, 5 times a day..." Yeah right.

    "My tooth hurts as we speak, and I cannot afford to pay my local sadistic/extortionist." Can you afford a toothbrush? You can obviously afford a computer and the time to waste writing asinine blog entries. Take responsibility for you own problems, don't blame dentists who are just trying to help ppl. Trash.
    :mad:
     
  16. DCRedskinsRule

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    :thumbup::thumbup::laugh::laugh:
     
  17. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    Oh man, that was good. I needed a laugh today. :laugh:

    Nice job on "inventing" those ideas that we've been working on since the 70's.
     
  18. somethinpositiv

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    There are significant differences between the ingredients in original Listerine, and Listerine Whitening.

    Listerine Whitening's primary ingredient is Hydrogen Peroxide, which is what bleaches the teeth. In fact, it would be just as effective to use an $0.89 bottle of H2O2 mixed with equal parts water, as it would be to use a $6.99 bottle of Listerine Whitening. Original Listerine does not contain H2O2, but relies on a mixture of alcohols as its active ingredients. I understand your point though Mike.
     
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  19. teeth63a

    teeth63a Dharma Dentist
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    I bet he thinks Star Trek teleporters haven't been invented yet because petrolueum companies would lose money if people stopped using the cars/buses/planes/boats....and there's a mass global conspiracy by Exxon to stifle this new techonology.

    His disclaimer "Now I realize I'm not an expert, and some of these may be invalid at the moment, but to dismiss them out of hand is premature given the potential" is hilarious.

    Hell why isn't anyone not working on turning lead into gold? To dismiss that out of hand is premature given the potential.
     
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  20. Innomen

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    A great many in fact, but far be it from me to argue from popularity. However, I'm sure I'm going to hear one or two.


    No you don't. Unless you think calling me, "a piece of crap", "lazy", "ridiculous", "stupid", and "trash" is helpful.

    I wrote the post, because I didn't want to have a flame war here, I expected the hate to go on my blog and to get a serious response from the budding professionals. Guess that didn't work out.

    No matter.

    Strawman, I never said my dentist gave me a cavity. I said there is a conflict of interest when dentists give advise on tooth care.

    Think before you speak, I am aware of the difference between saying that they exploit the conflict, and saying there exists a conflict.

    Do you deny that such a conflict exists?

    After 29 years of meticulous care, this, if it is a cavity (and not say a sinus infection or some other cause) will be my second. Any dental professional knows there are a plethora of non-maintenance related contributors to tooth decay, from diet, to heredity, to saliva PH.

    Do you deny such a drug would be welcome if it were safe and effective?

    Are you aware of the cost of having multiple teeth pulled?

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#generalization

    Logic is your friend.

    One example of dishonesty does not render all humans dishonest.

    And as above, there are many causes of tooth decay.

    I'm sure some do, but I can't afford to spend 600$ or more on a tooth brush either, I have a simple 5$ variety.

    My computer was a gift, a Corporate hand me down.

    I don't consider it a waste and simply calling it asinine proves nothing.

    Learn to defend your assertions.

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#elenchi

    Beyond the fact that taking personal responsibility has nothing to with the generalization that all dentists who have ever lived are "only trying to help" is the fact that taking personal responsibility and finding fault with a system can occur simultaneously.

    I look forward to a rational response.
     
  21. Innomen

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    Strawman, obviously. But there to, a conflict of interest would exist. And there is a good bit of evidence that at least GM acted on that conflict with regard to the electric car, but that's a separate issue to be evaluated on it's own merits.

    We are, just not specifically. Materials science and particle physics are lively fields.

    Beside that is the idea that we should not attempt something merely because it sounds preposterous.

    A simple look at the history of scientific and medical achievement will shred that notion, and you should know better given your claimed field of expertise.
     
  22. aphistis

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    You mean to tell me you scribbled out that ignorant temper tantrum in the expectation that someone was going to take you seriously?


    By this argument, the only people who should be giving out advice on any subject is someone who has no vested interest in it and, consequently, is likely to be laughably ignorant of it (e.g. you discussing dentistry). Do you have similar conspiracy theories about mechanics telling you to change your oil, or your physician telling you to eat less and exercise more? If no, then your conflict-of-interest claim is invalid (reductio ad absurdum). If yes, then I think we can close the book and let you get back under your tin-foil hat.

    Any dental professional knows far, far more than you about the etiology of tooth decay.

    Dude, you're living in a fairy tale. I'd love to explain to you all the obstacles preventing a drug like this from ever existing, but you clearly know so little about dentistry and oral biology that you wouldn't even understand the explanation.

    This is a joke, right? Are we getting punked or something? Come on, put Ashton Kutcher on the line so we know you're just kidding.

    Logic certainly is my friend. I'd love to introduce the two of you sometime. Incidentally, you seem unable to discriminate between "irrational generalization" and "representative example of something every dentist in America sees multiple times every single day of every single week of every single month of every single year of their careers."

    No, there is one cause of tooth decay. There are a number of influencing variables, which isn't the same thing by any tortured stretch of the imagination. Score another one for profound ignorance.

    My current toothbrush cost $3.99. If you think you have to spend $600 on a toothbrush to avoid cavities, that just means you're gullible and ignorant.

    Your internet access isn't.

    Physician, heal thyself.

    Of course they can occur simultaneously. I just wish that, in your argument, they actually were. Or is your understanding of personal responsibility right up there next to your mastery of dentistry?

    Wish granted, champ.
     
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  23. teeth63a

    teeth63a Dharma Dentist
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    Aphisits - I'm impressed you spent that much time on the post :).

    Yeah its hard to take a guy seriously who first engages in a half thought out rant based in science fiction and fantasy, then closes with an ad hominem attack on his dentist ("sadistic[sic]/extortionist"). This of course insults the rest of us in the profession by proxy.

    THEN he has the gall to take the moral and intellectual high ground.

    If this isn't Ashton Kutcher, it's possibly a bored sociologist major running a social experiemnt.

    Ironically 3, 4, 5 exist, but since he has no background in the field at all, he's patting himself on the back for thinking it up. Obviously if he were sincere in his argument we would have at least done *some* research. It seems that he is just interested in arguing for argument's sake.
    Yes they are, alchemy unfortunately, is dead. Stick with the philosophy, let us deal with the science.
     
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    #23 teeth63a, May 13, 2009
    Last edited: May 13, 2009
  24. Innomen

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    Guess I hit a nerve. Pun intended.

    I'm not going to argue with a moderator, no matter how tempting. I am now forced to let your 'arguments' go. Not unanswered mind you since you fail to refute, well, anything I said. But it would have been fun to point out exactly how you had done so in each instance.

    In any case, I was not looking for your or anyone else's help. I was simply noting my skepticism and what I thought was an oversight, but I now realize is a well known self deception.

    This would be a good time to make an excuse for failing to have this debate in neutral territory where I could be assured a full hearing without the threat of post deletion and banning that is implicit in arguing with a mod, since harassment and trolling are a violation of TOS on virtually every forum, and you get to define what those are.

    Shame really, but hey brute force has served in place of thought for a very long time, it's in our genes after all.

    Mods always steal the last word, enjoy it, perhaps you would like to make more baseless assertions and personal insults in lieu of rational counterpoint.

    I'm not going to answer so you can really let yourself go.

    Bye guys. :)
     
  25. teeth63a

    teeth63a Dharma Dentist
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    Now he's playing the victim card! Brilliant move, I never saw that one coming!
     
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  26. NyCzPeter

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    But salt water doesn't keep your breath so fresh and so clean clean.
     
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  27. aphistis

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
     
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  28. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    Moderator abuse of power is also against the TOS, you're simply choosing to leave because deep down you realize your "points" are indefensible and your "conspiracy theory" outlook shields your ego from realizing that.

    So put up your sword, see if you can manage Aphistis' riposte.
     
  29. aphistis

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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  30. ivorinedust

    ivorinedust Senior Member
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    Hi. I was under the impression that the toothpaste is not as important as the toothbrush. Toothpastes only make toothbrushing a more pleasant experience, IMO. You can toothbrush without a toothpaste, but can't toothpaste without the toothbrush:)

    BTW, we only need a pea-sized bead of toothpaste "injected" between the bristles of the toothbrush, not a huge s-shaped glob on top of it, as seen in the tv and print advertisements. That's what I tell my patients.

    Ivorinedust

    "Apolonia, my toothache is gone!"
     
  31. shindotp

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    Such fierce arguments over tooth paste.
     
  32. CanuckDDS

    CanuckDDS Junior Member
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    you mean you don't have better things to do than argue with the masterdebater? Not like you have a job or anything...

    Time to get back to HELPING patients....

    I've wasted enough time reading that idiot's drivel.
     
  33. aphistis

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    Yeah, I wish I had time to respond, but lately I'm a little busy making sure people survive surgery. :rolleyes:
     
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  34. teeth63a

    teeth63a Dharma Dentist
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    Here's our little intellectual winning the hearts and minds on another board

    http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=596384&page=3
    Last 3-4 posts are brilliant

    The mod there has a great post on trolls
    http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1032102

    Reading his blog and the responses on his blog is GREAT entertainment.

    His pattern is the same: say something inflammatory, then use hypocritical, psuedo-intellectual arguments to defend his tenuous position, and the play victim- a martyr to his own self indulgent ego.

    He tries to trap people in the mechanics of the argument, rather than truth or evidence behind his points. Of course, he sets himself up for the same scurtiny as well.
    ***
    on debate.com:
    "That this conflict of interest is exploited in some cases, if not most, is virtually assured"

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#accident
    Sweeping generalization. He assumes that since a few dentists do, most dentists engage in dishonesty.

    ***
    "The preference would be independently funded and run research, but this is rare if it even exists..."

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#ignorantiam
    Argumentum ad ignorantiam (Argument from ignorance). It does exist (ie Christensen's Clinician's Report). But how can he say it's rare since his statement "if it even exists" implies he never bothered to look?

    ***
    "If that approved toothpaste were then to fail over time, increased profits would result, resulting in a particularly vicious loop that would eventually result in significant tooth repair and removal expense."

    His conclusion is so far off from his premise, since his argument is largely based in ignorance.

    He assumes that everyone brushes properly (many do not). He ignores anatomical variances between people, that some people are more susceptible to caries. He ignores that diet habits are a factor.

    Increased profits for us results from 1) patient negligence (poor hygiene, refusing treatment, settling for less than ideal treatment ie the MODBL amalgam instead of a crown) 2) random events (trauma) 3) cosmetic/luxury procedures. 4) Natural wear and tear of teeth and restorations.

    If EVERYONE did as their dentist recommended, and if people could afford it all, dentists would see an immidiate profit at first when all needs are fixed. Eventually, when a patient has all restorative needs met, a dentist would see LESS profit since all the patient would need is hygiene appointments or the occasional replacement restoration.

    We don't fix cars, we don't unclog your pipes. As much as I respect mechanics and plumbers for their ability, they are held to a lower, legal standard. Dentists treat human beings. As such, health professionals (physicians, dentists, nurses, etc), are held to a HIGHER standard than the law- the ethical standard. No doubt that the consequnces of failing the legal standrads are more tangible (monetary or jail time). But the ethical standard of "doing the right thing" weigh on the moral well being much more. The ADA helps to set these standards: patient autonomy, nonmalefecience beneficience, justice, and veracity are the guiding principles. Fortunately since some people don't lose any sleep at night from doing unethical things, violations of the ethical standard can have consequences in the legal system (as in malpractice).

    There are bad people everywhere: attorneys, accountants, doctors, dentists, mechanics, contractors, priests, politicians. No one profession is safe from unscrupulous people, that's a simple fact.

    What's laughable of this exchange is that Innomen tries to pass himself as a great intellectual thinker when most of his dental wish list are completely founded in ignorant fantasy (gene therapy, drugs to exfoliate teeth and regrow them). What's left are things that already exist (CAD/CAM dentistry). More amusing is that this person is more interetested in the mechanics of the argument rather than the merits and truth of his points. Throw in some Latin, strawman this, strawman that, and "Hey! Look at me , I'm smart!" How many of his points can he actually support with facts? "That this conflict of interest is exploited in some cases, if not most..." Oh yeah? Which cases?

    Unfortunately, the best way to treat a troll is to ignore him, but hey, venting is good too.

    Now that I've gotten that off my chest, something more entertaining:
    http://playhimoffkeyboardcat.com/

    Yes it was a slow day for me today.
     
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  35. Innomen

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    I'll respond here if I have your assurances that you'll take off the badge so to speak. Considering the fact that you are supposed to be a professional, and an position figure here, yet all you can manage to do is insult, I would prefer if you stay uninvolved.

    Doubly so since you refuse to continue this discussion outside your fiefdom.

    Need I bring up forum rules against harassment and hostile behavior? Ironic in the extreme considering that my original post was in effect to ask who watches the watchers, and the immediate response is a moderator violating his own rules, leaving me with precisely zero recourse.

    And really, I question your claim of professionalism if the best argument you can muster is snide personal attack.

    I asked you in message as a mod if I could challenge the others on this forum to see if any of them wanted to step up where you backed down, but you failed to answer and then, posted yet another personally hostile message.

    Even my patience has it's limits.
     
  36. tinman831

    tinman831 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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    No one has handed out any punishment to you nor has anyone censored you in any way. We're simply waiting for you to post some evidence to back up your claim. You put on your tin foil hat, took an extremist point of view relating to dental care, and you walked right into the lions den expecting us to put up with your diatribe (which we have). We put up a valid defense which you have yet to refute. You simply run around in circles with your comments and you fail to address the actual points that have been brought up. When you have any valid and educated comments to post, feel free to come back. We have decades of research behind us (much of it conducted by skeptics such as yourself) proving that the treatments and methodology of our practice of dental medicine is sound.
     
  37. tinman831

    tinman831 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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    And on a side note, many of your arguments brings up an issue that can really applied to man as a whole, not specifically the dental profession. It all boils down to good vs bad, charity vs greed, you name it. These are characteristics which you will find in everyone, in every profession. Why you chose to bring up the dental profession, I don't know.
     
  38. Innomen

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    I expect any statement made to science professionals to be treated with courtesy and an open mind.

    Name calling isn't a part of the scientific method to my understanding. Your first example of irony, in that you accuse me of a temper tantrum and yet you're the one calling names and making insults in every sentence.

    Your opinion of my character is not relevant, and as I expect you are aware, attacking the person is a well known logical fallacy. A moderator should be aware of that, but it appears you are not.

    Argumentum ad hominem, look into it.

    Strawman again, I never said they should cease giving advise, or that that advice once given should be ignored, I simply said there is a conflict of interest in the giving of that advise by people who would profit most were that advise to be faulty.

    Noting an obvious conflicting interest is not suggestion of a conspiracy. Further, as explained in detail in the debate you linked too, the mechanic analogy fails to relate, for a variety of reasons. Such as self repair potential, true competition, pain, obfuscation, oligopoly, instant feedback, motive to deceive, pay, and social pressures.

    Also unrelated, changing oil, and diet and exercise are cliché in their ubiquity. I don't need third party expert review to determine that changing the oil and controlling my diet are good ideas. When a dentist recommends a tooth paste however, I have to take his word for it unless I'm prepared to pay for an independent clinical study.

    Reductio ad absurdum is a mode of argumentation that seeks to establish a contention by deriving an absurdity from its denial.

    Irony again in that you just stated that denial of your contention is as absurd as a belief in mind control satellites.

    That's not a refutation, its an argumentum ad verecundiam.

    http://patientsville.com/symptoms/tooth-loss.htm

    "Dude" if it happens partially by accident it is strongly indicated the it can be done completely with effort. Many things which were thought impossible have come to pass. Retroviral gene therapy alone opens the door to potential total control of the mouth with a pill.

    Ad Hominem, again. Just because I may not understand, doesn't mean the readers won't. I suspect your attack is merely a smoke screen for your own ignorance.

    No, it's not a joke.

    If no sedation (IV sedation, nitrous oxide) is used, then between $150-250 at a general dentist office. If you go to an oral surgeon, it will cost $350-500. Sedation can add $100-300 to the cost.

    Is this really what passes for debate in your social circle? You seem unable to defend your assertions without attacking personally.

    What you experience is anecdotal evidence, and thus does not constitute a representative sample. That's why we do studies rather than simply asking a random involved person.

    Further you can't present your speculation of what other dentists may see or think. Does the concept of evidence as opposed to hearsay escape your understanding?

    That's like saying there is only one cause of death but there are "a number of influencing variables" such as war, cancer, and cars.

    I realize the result is the same, destruction of enamel, but to say there is only one cause is shocking coming from a man who claims to be a DDS.

    Let's say I had an oral fixation and a tongue piercing and I was constantly chewing on it, is that seriously the same as being born with weak enamel, and is that in turn the same as being a soda addict?

    It's called an analogy, they are useful, and you should look into them. My point was that I can't brush away a cavity or brush a tooth out, or brush a crown on.

    Actually it is, my neighbor has significantly more money than me and doesn't mind me sharing because I'm very low impact.

    Nothing is "occurring" in my argument. Nor did I claim anything was occurring in reality, I simply stated the possibility that one can accept the consequences of one's own actions and inactions, and still find fault with a system.

    In my case however since you seem so interested in me personally, I am an example of it occuring.

    I never claimed to have a mastery of dentistry, and the claim that I have to have one to detect an obvious fiscal conflict of interest is absurd. Would I be justified in claiming that you needed a degree in economics to refute my claim since it is financial in nature? Of course not.

    Not yet.

    teeth63a

    Strawman.

    I couldn't find a single example of truly independent third party review. but I'll admit I only looked for about 20 minutes, after all the burden of proof isn't mine. Clinician's Report by the way is hardly independent, they accept donations and they test dental products.

    Ad Hominem again. Simply stating that I am ignorant is no more an argument than me saying "you're wrong."

    Uhh, no, in fact I mention those facts as support for my contention.

    Thus you've made my argument for me. Once again, for the cheap seats, I am simply saying the conflict exists. That you and Bill automatically assume that I am saying all dentists are sadistic thieves, speaks more to your self image than my assertions.

    -=To the rest of you.=-

    I'm not going to debate this entire board all at the same time. I'm on debate.com if one of you has the nerve to try me on neutral territory.

    I know I've not convinced any of you.

    On a personal note, your collective behavior disgusts me. I've debated professionals from every field I've had interest in from fundamentalist religious leaders, to particle physicists and mathematicians, and never have I encountered a more scornful, insulting or childish group in a setting of claimed professionalism.

    Bible thumpers, skin heads, PETA fanatics, neo conservatives, etc have all shown themselves to be more courteous and professional in their defenses of their beliefs.

    Armorshell, can I put my sword away now? This is utterly without point. These people have WAY too much vested interest to even remotely consider the truth let alone admit it publicly.
     
    #38 Innomen, May 15, 2009
    Last edited: May 15, 2009
  39. aphistis

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    I thought you had decided to leave? So far no fewer than three different moderators have participated in this ridiculous discussion, and none of us have lifted a finger to censor or restrain you.

    So much for your claims of "brute force", threats of banishment, and claims of intimidation. If you won't leave for our sake, you should do it for your own, to stop undermining yourself every time you click "post reply."
     
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  40. tinman831

    tinman831 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Staff Member Administrator Dentist Lifetime Donor Verified Expert Verified Account 10+ Year Member

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    What about the thousands of procedures that are done every day pro bono? Not every dentist is a greedy heartless bastard. You must be one to believe that true altruism doesn't exist either huh? Your question is valid. How will we ever know if the behavior of one is self severing or is truly honest? We don't. We stated our opinion and you stated yours. There is no right or wrong here.

    You came to a forum of people who have sacrificed 10+ years of their life, to gain an education which was to be used for the benefit of mankind. You belittled our profession and you were the first to attack us. So don't be insulted if we go on the defensive.
     
  41. Innomen

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    They are quite admirable? How does that impact the presence of a conflict of interest?

    Nor did I say every dentist was, did you read my post? See this is why it's pointless, you guys just ignore what I said.

    http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Dentist/Salary

    Education is an investment. Dentists may not be Satan but they aren't Gandhi either.

    Oh Come On! My first post said NOTHING beyond the fact that a conflict of interest exists, which none of you have denied!

    It was your cohorts who assumed that instantly equaled a claim of total industry corruption!

    Why do I even both writing? You guys just make up what I say for me and then attack that.

    The only reason I'm responding this time is the fact that your concern was short and easy to address.

    As a side not, while it may be hard to grasp for the more frothy mouths involved here, I actually have a deep respect for dentists, the majority of them make a profession out of killing pain.

    That's pretty damn noble, but the fact remains the INDUSTRY and situation creates a serious conflict of interest that cannot be avoided, and needs to be rationally discussed.
     
  42. teeth63a

    teeth63a Dharma Dentist
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    I did not call you ignorant. I chose my words carefully and said that your statement was founded in ignorance. Are you a dentist? Did you go to school for 4 years like the rest of us? I don't think so. All the internet research you do is not equivalent to the amount of class hours we spent.

    If I had to spell this out to you, in addition to the fact that you can't even acknowledge that your attack on your own dentist as a sadist and extortionist is in it self ad hominem you are truly, truly lost. Well and a hypocrite too. And I'm forgiving of the "parasite" comment.

    Oh by the way, great job of picking and choosing which arguments to refute, you obviously could not respond to the stronger arguments. You don't even address the fact that we have code of conduct that the vast majority adhere to.

    from debate.org

    "you will do or say nearly anything to have the pain go away. It's extortion."
    So by that rationale should a deperately hungry person going into a restaurant hold the same grudge for the person standing behind the counter? Treatment of disease and pain is a service we provide that costs money. By all means, if you begrudge us for that, fix your problem yourself.

    "If you wish to prove the entire industry is on the up and up, and always will be, that is your burden."
    Alas, we really have nothing to prove to an ideologue like you. The burden of proof actually lies on you, since in the cirminal court system all are innocent until proven guilty. We have yet to see a single shred of proof of gross misconduct of our profession as a whole coming from you. Oh and yes, we are a profession, not an industry. Tourism is an industry. Auto making is an industry. Healthcare is a profession.

    ***
    Having a conversation with this guy is like trying to convince an Islamic radical to stop being a terrorist. One could spend a year trying to convince a terrorist why he shouldn't kill Americans because they're basically good people, but because of his very narrow, dogmatic view, he's blind and deaf to all arguments (that's an analogy). Likewise, no matter what we say, you'll still believe what you want to believe because of your dogmatic view based largely in ignorance and supposition.

    Here's another analogy. Innomen is invited to a party, he walks into the room and says "Good evening a*holes!". He then sulks in the corner and wonders why no one wants to have an intelligent conversation with him. He then turns to the nearest person and says, "Shame on you a*holes for not talking to me!"

    By the way, at home sealants can't work because you have no training in identifying which teeth are good candidates for sealants as well as the fact that you can't roll your eyeballs to see the occlusal surfaces of the maxillary teeth.

    We all agree that a conflict can exist. We're snorting and laughing at the rest of what you have to say, as well as your method of argument. Your argument basically lacks evidence and has devolved to "Stop calling me names". Victimized yet again, as in many of the internet discussions that you wallowed into (yes, I found a few of them).



    Now off to work I go to treat my patients who appreciate what I do.
     
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    #42 teeth63a, May 15, 2009
    Last edited: May 15, 2009
  43. aphistis

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    What a perfect summarization.

    Of course. How could anyone possibly have concluded otherwise? :rolleyes:
     
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  44. teeth63a

    teeth63a Dharma Dentist
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    Dental students and recent grads....this is a great learning lesson.

    This is exactly the type of patient that you want to avoid.

    I'm not talking about a skeptic. I love skeptics and debating skeptics.

    I'm talking about the value seeking, antagonistic skeptic.

    This kind of person DOES NOT care about the level of quality provided to him. In his view ALL dentists are the same, east coast, west coast, American, Mexican, and all of us are potential rip-off artists. He assumes that the standard of care is the same for all dentists thoughout the world (which we know is not). I've seen work done in the Phillipines and Mexico, many of which I had to redo simply because they were poorly done (crowns into the biologic width, grossly overhanging margins). But hey, questioning the quality of foreign dentistry makes you an "elitist, a racist, or an ethnocentrist".

    He DOES NOT care about the personal relationship with his dentist. He resents them for being "handsomely paid to address tooth damage", views collecting payment for service as "extortion" both which make the relationship automatically antagonistic. How do you have a personal relationship with someone who thinks you're a criminal?

    What he does care about is cost. This type of patient will drop you in a heartbeat if he found out that the dentist down the street charges less. Nevermind the fact that he does poor work or is a grumpy old man, he's cheaper!

    There are delicate ways to handle this kind of patient. Fortunately I've only had a small handful of this kind of patient. Treatment would be minimal to relieve pain, and then I'd say "Well, it looks like your philosophical beliefs are greatly different from mine and the services that I provide. Here is a list of other dentists in the area who may share your views and may be able to provide you better care than I can."

    This is the kind of patient you don't lose sleep over when they leave your practice, because for them, they're just looking for the cheapest rate possible...send them off to Mexico for cheaper dentistry.
     
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    #44 teeth63a, May 15, 2009
    Last edited: May 15, 2009
  45. CanuckDDS

    CanuckDDS Junior Member
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    True. Should I say it in Latin to make me sound smarter?

    As an aside,
    I have no problem with the personal attacks. I believe in this clown's (personal attack) first statement he referred to his dentist as his local "sadist/extortionist" this is an attack on all of us personally. And there isn't any amount of latin crap that can smoke and mirror that fact.

    Good luck with your huge Dungeons and Dragons match tonight bud. Wash away that plaque with a Coke and then hit up the internet for drug names that cause tooth loss- good times!

    That is humour by the way.

    I'm not one for debating...I mean, my mind is soooooo "narrow" and my behaviour so "unprofessional". Sorry, but I have to go fix a 72 year old lady's orbital blowout and Lefort II fracture at 11:30- what a Jerk Dentist I am!!!!!
     
  46. lgwdnbdgr

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    In this particular case, I think I disagree with you. Here is a guy who is trying to claim that the ADA "oligopoly" somehow means scientists (i.e. NOT dentists) have a conflict of interest that causes them to not develop great new technology...

    ...including the development of a drug that MAKES YOUR TEETH FALL OUT.

    My friends and I play this game all the time. You see how utterly ridiculous you can be before your "victim" catches on that you are just messing with him.
     
  47. Innomen

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    It is so wonderfully telling that the only response I can get from the 'professionals' is name calling and intentional distortion.

    teeth63a:

    You've already admitted that we agree, the rest is just snide childish vengeance for noting publicly the fact that we both already knew.

    To the rest of the name callers:

    You guys should be ashamed of yourselves, really.

    If I'm so uneducated and utterly wrong, and ignorant, then why do you feel justified in attempting to humiliate me?

    The only answer I can think of is privilege. You're all used to having your back side polished, and thus have no concept of how to approach a disagreement like adults, because you've been pampered like children.

    Why not just calmly point out where I'm wrong and cite a source or two?

    When steps in the helpfulness of character assassination?

    Let me guess. How would a child defend himself, oh yes, "he started it."

    Despite that fact that I didn't. My first statement here was to note something that according to teeth, you all already agreed on. If that was the case and you were mature professionals the response should have been something like...

    "That's a common concern, and we do our very best to minimize the risk to ourselves and our patients, we strive to keep our priority on quality of care as a matter of principal."

    That's what I would have said if I actually believed what you people are paying lip service to. I certainly would not have begun a rant about tin foils hats and conspiracy theory.

    I was instantly accused of a taking a position I didn't even hold, and that aspect of my time here hasn't changed.

    To the mods:

    Selectively enforcing the rules is just as much an abuse of power as kicking me outright.

    It's the same story all over the Internet, the longer you've been on a forum the less the rules apply.

    And now episode 15 of make up things Innomen has said and then call him names for saying them.

    Cya tommarow kids.

    Question for the mature professionals::

    How is enamel formed in the first place?

    Is it like hair, from the bottom up?

    Or is it like bone and therefor more a soft lattice to which materials are attached?

    I ask because my aunt's adult teeth came in without enamel, and had to have all her teeth capped. Is this common?

    What are the known or hypothesized causes?
     
  48. Innomen

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    Boy, all caps, I really see the error of my ways now. :laugh:

    But seriously, aphistis seems to think such a drug is simply impossible.

    However, since tooth loss is a reported side effect on dozens of drugs, I would disagree.

    People pay to have their remaining teeth surgically removed on many occasions. Typically the people in this situation are older, in some cases even elderly.

    Are you honestly saying that as a professional you would not like a safe and effective pharmaceutical option to compliment the surgical one?

    And if the risks were the same in both cases, would it not be nice to have a cheaper option to offer your lower income patients?

    I know at least one person that would have loved this option quite strongly, as he has been having his teeth pulled one at a time as he can afford to do so with the goal of total removal.

    I know another man who was a telephone lineman and lost all of his teeth in a fall, and has stated on many occasions that his replacements are spectacular, painless, and effortless. When compared to real teeth.

    Now obviously its not something everyone should do, but rejecting the option seems like needless bridge burning to me.

    Am I wrong?
     
  49. aphistis

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    ...and we'll let that be the last word. Closing.
     
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