ADA Income Survey

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SigmaFS

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From the ADA (https://www.ada.org/-/media/project...s_in_dentists_income_revenue_hours_worked.pdf)

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More indentured servant dentists, with bad contracts getting a paltry 25-30%, with little options out, except to trade that scenario for another like scenario or buying a 900k producing office with uncontrolled overhead that will end up after paying the practice note - the same or less income but more stress and liability. Dentistry is turning into a scenario where many have no control over the direction of their futures.
 
data is clear as day. Higher tuition, less pay, more work hours.

Only people going into dentistry now are *****s. Literally
 
A specialist dentist earns less than a md, even though they have the same length of education and significantly more debt.
 
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amirjawsurgeon said:
A specialist dentist earns less than a doctor, even though they have the same length of education and significantly more debt.
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Which is why I’d recommend just about everyone consider medical school over dental school.

Big Hoss
 
Dentistry is in major decline. That's undeniable. On SDN, we have actual practicing dentists who can all vouch for that and have been warning predents. Accordingly, all of the pre-dents have moved to pre-dental reddit to put their heads in the sand. Try saying anything about loans on there and they will tell you why it's not bad spending 3.5k a month on loans for 25 years. It's bananas.
 
JacquesVallee said:
Dentistry is in major decline. That's undeniable. On SDN, we have actual practicing dentists who can all vouch for that and have been warning predents. Accordingly, all of the pre-dents have moved to pre-dental reddit to put their heads in the sand. Try saying anything about loans on there and they will tell you why it's not bad spending 3.5k a month on loans for 25 years. It's bananas.
Click to expand...
No one can deny that dentistry is in a major decline. But if you have good clinical skill like Pablo Sanchez (or at least half as fast as him), you should be fine. My nephew graduated about a year ago and has been working for a corp in a rural part of CA. Until now, he still can’t do a molar endo because he keeps referring cases to endodontist. The reason the employer still keeps him there is it’s in a rural area and it’s hard to find a dentist to work for them. The pay is decent and he's on an IBR repayment plan so he doesn't feel the urgency to make a lot money to repay his student loan debt. With limited skill, he’s not ready to open a practice any time soon.

I recently met an old friend, who’s a class below me. He had worked as an engineer for a few years before he went back to school for dentistry. He hated dental school and struggled greatly with the preclinical lab. I helped him a few times. But he managed to graduate on time. Right after graduation, he worked for the same dental corp that I also worked for. Six months later he was promoted to a managing doctor position because of his exceptional clinical skills. He later left the company and worked for Western Dental (also as a managing dentist), where he got paid a lot more. He then bought a practice (in San Diego) that was 60 miles away from his home (in OC). He had ran that office for about 10 years….driving back and forth. I met him again last month at our mini class reunion (just a small group of friends) and learned that he now works full time as a traveling exodontist….doing mostly 3rd molar exts…...getting paid like a real OS. And he loves it.

It depends each individual's effort and motivation.
 
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charlestweed said:
No one can deny that dentistry is in a major decline. But if you have good clinical skill like Pablo Sanchez (or at least half as fast as him), you should be fine. My nephew graduated about a year ago and has been working for a corp in a rural part of CA. Until now, he still can’t do a molar endo because he keeps referring cases to endodontist. The reason the employer still keeps him there is it’s in a rural area and it’s hard to find a dentist to work for them. The pay is decent and he's on an IBR repayment plan so he doesn't feel the urgency to make a lot money to repay his student loan debt. With limited skill, he’s not ready to open a practice any time soon.

I recently met an old friend, who’s a class below me. He had worked as an engineer for a few years before he went back to school for dentistry. He hated dental school and struggled greatly with the preclinical lab. I helped him a few times. But he managed to graduate on time. Right after graduation, he worked for the same dental corp that I also worked for. Six months later he was promoted to a managing doctor position because of his exceptional clinical skills. He later left the company and worked for Western Dental (also as a managing dentist), where he got paid a lot more. He then bought a practice (in San Diego) that was 60 miles away from his home (in OC). He had ran that office for about 10 years….driving back and forth. I met him again last month at our mini class reunion (just a small group of friends) and learned that he now works full time as a traveling exodontist….doing mostly 3rd molar exts…...getting paid like a real OS. And he loves it.

It depends each individual's effort and motivation.
Click to expand...
Does he have a general anesthesia permit?
 
There may be some silver linings to a sharp decrease in graduating dentists. But, it still highlights what a dumpster fire dentistry is becoming. Per ChatGPT:

A sharp decline in newly graduating dentists would have major consequences for Dental Service Organizations (DSOs) because their business model depends heavily on a steady supply of new clinicians. Here’s what would likely happen:

1. Increased Competition for Dentists

DSOs rely on hiring large numbers of early-career dentists. With fewer new grads:
  • DSOs would compete aggressively with private practices for the same smaller pool of clinicians.
  • Signing bonuses, salary guarantees, and benefits would likely rise.
  • DSOs might offer clearer or faster partnership paths to attract candidates.
This drives up labor costs—usually the largest expense in dentistry.

2. Rising Operating Costs & Margin Pressure

Higher dentist compensation, recruitment costs, and retention incentives would:
  • Reduce profitability.
  • Likely trigger consolidation (large DSOs acquiring smaller ones).
  • Push DSOs to expand high-margin services (e.g., implants, clear aligners, specialty care).
3. Accelerated Use of Technology

To compensate for fewer dentists, DSOs would likely invest more in:
  • AI diagnostics and treatment planning
  • Expanded delegation to hygienists and assistants (where allowed by state regulations)
  • Tele-dentistry for triage and post-op care
  • Digital workflows such as same-day crowns, 3D printing, and remote monitoring
Goal: increase output per doctor and reduce reliance on clinical manpower.

4. Expansion of Mid-Level Providers (Where Legal)

If states broaden scope for:
  • Dental therapists
  • Expanded-function dental assistants/hygienists
DSOs would be among the first to adopt these models to keep clinics staffed.

5. Geographic Shifts in Access

With fewer dentists entering the workforce:
  • DSOs may prioritize large metro areas with high patient volume.
  • Rural and underserved markets—often served by DSOs—could see clinic closures or reduced hours.
  • DSOs might push for regulatory changes allowing greater remote supervision.
6. Increased Consolidation & Industry Shakeout

Smaller DSOs with thin margins may:
  • Be acquired by larger groups
  • Restrict growth
  • Fail to compete for talent
Large DSOs with deeper resources would grow stronger.

7. Higher Patient Fees

Labor shortages generally increase:
  • Treatment pricing
  • Membership plan rates
  • Out-of-pocket costs for uninsured patients
Insurance reimbursement might not rise quickly enough, worsening margin pressure.

8. Changes in Dental School Partnerships

DSOs could respond by:
  • Funding dental school expansions
  • Offering scholarships tied to post-graduation employment commitments
  • Supporting foreign-trained dentist residency pathways
  • Investing in new dental education programs
Essentially, “grow their own” workforce.

Summary

If the number of new dentists drops sharply, DSOs will likely face:

Short-Term Pain
  • Higher costs
  • Difficulty staffing offices
  • Reduced profitability
Long-Term Adaptation
  • Heavy use of technology
  • Expanded roles for mid-level providers
  • Increased consolidation
  • Closer partnerships with dental schools
Big Hoss
 
702 said:
Does he have a general anesthesia permit?
Click to expand...
No. He only uses local anesthesia. He sees higher patient volume than what an OS typically sees in a day because of the extra time that he has for not having to do pre-op IV preparation, IV inform consent with the patients/parents, post IV recovery time and instructions etc. According to him, his daily production can exceed $20k on some days. He travels to multiple offices and each office books a lot of patients for him.
 
charlestweed said:
According to the report from AAMC, more than 75% of the medical students come from high income families.....as high as 24% of them are from the top 5% earners. I wonder if there is a similar report for dental schools
Click to expand...
Makes sense. IQ is largely heritable so mix in high IQ with economic resources and family/community pressure. This should surprise nobody and we should expect a similar statistic for dentistry.
 
Factually speaking a lot fewer poor students are going to be going to dental school.
 
michaeljj2021 said:
Factually speaking a lot fewer poor students are going to be going to dental school.
Click to expand...
They won’t be taken advantage of and turned into literal indentured servants, if they are smart and have merit they will be far better off and successful doing something else. I have so many friends that did not have their parents pay and they lament pissing their time away becoming a dentist basically every week.
 
Blueshirts said:
They won’t be taken advantage of and turned into literal indentured servants, if they are smart and have merit they will be far better off and successful doing something else. I have so many friends that did not have their parents pay and they lament pissing their time away becoming a dentist basically every week.
Click to expand...
Yep. Almost every dentist i know without parental support is struggling.
 
JacquesVallee said:
A lot fewer people in general will be going, including the middle class. This is a good thing. Dentistry is wayyyyyyy too expensive and not with the costs.
Click to expand...
I think there will be a significant increase in the number of applicants going for OMFS in the future since it's a paid residency and the ROI is the best in all dentistry.
 
702 said:
I think there will be a significant increase in the number of applicants going for OMFS in the future since it's a paid residency and the ROI is the best in all dentistry.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. I think all the GME funded residencies will see an uptick. Perio and ortho will decline drastically since almost all of them require tuition.
 
JacquesVallee said:
Absolutely. I think all the GME funded residencies will see an uptick. Perio and ortho will decline drastically since almost all of them require tuition.
Click to expand...
Isn't there limited GME funding. Will be there an increase in the number OMFS residencies? Sure, there will be an increase in OMFS applicants, but not necessarily slots.
 
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Reactions: 702
SigmaFS said:
Isn't there limited GME funding. Will be there an increase in the number OMFS residencies? Sure, there will be an increase in OMFS applicants, but not necessarily slots.
Click to expand...
I just meant increase in number of applicants. I don't think GME programs will be expanded.
 
JacquesVallee said:
Yep. Almost every dentist i know without parental support is struggling.
Click to expand...
The only reason I went to dental school was because I was able to do it while living at home and commuting, it saved me - in the long run, hundreds of thousands of dollars. I almost did not attend, if the numbers didn’t work out. Everyone I know who came out with too much debt, is also struggling. New dentists who aren’t already set up for success are walking in to a wood chipper, I wish I could do more to help them, but there are so many delinquents who know they have no leverage and eagerly take advantage of them.
 
SigmaFS said:
Isn't there limited GME funding. Will be there an increase in the number OMFS residencies? Sure, there will be an increase in OMFS applicants, but not necessarily slots.
Click to expand...
Why the down vote 702? And if I recall correctly, dental specialties, with the exception of OMFS, are no longer eligible for GME funding.
 
SigmaFS said:
Why the down vote 702? And if I recall correctly, dental specialties, with the exception of OMFS, are no longer eligible for GME funding.
Click to expand...
If a peds program is affiliated with a hospital, it almost certainly has GME funding.

Big Hoss
 
The thought of not going to dental school never crossed their minds. Predents are completely brainwashed and unwilling to accept the reality staring them in the face.



I cannot in good conscience recommend this profession to anyone. The ROI will keep you a debt slave for decades to come.

Big Hoss
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
The thought of not going to dental school never crossed their minds. Predents are completely brainwashed and unwilling to accept the reality staring them in the face.



I cannot in good conscience recommend this profession to anyone. The ROI will keep you a debt slave for decades to come.

Big Hoss
Click to expand...

Comical. I thought the prospect of taking out predatory private loans with no IBR would deter pre-dents. I SEVERELY overestimated their naivety. I wish there were more pre-dents on here.
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
And it just keeps coming…



Big Hoss
Click to expand...

My favorite is a reply from a pre-dent saying " I would say try your best, work hard and after you finish know your worth. Don’t accept jobs paying less than 200-220k." Like bruh people are coming out making close to half that. Pre-dents are delusional and it's exactly why they're still applying to dental school.
 
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JacquesVallee said:
My favorite is a reply from a pre-dent saying " I would say try your best, work hard and after you finish know your worth. Don’t accept jobs paying less than 200-220k." Like bruh people are coming out making close to half that. Pre-dents are delusional and its exactly why they're still applying to dental school.
Click to expand...
That’s exactly what I thought too. Good luck demanding that $220,000! What part of the ADA income survey did they not understand? Dentists are working more and doing so for less. It’s pretty simple.

Big Hoss
 
I also like all the people on Reddit who say to just do the HPSP. They have no idea how competitive it is. Before these changes in federal student loans, the HPSP was already sub-50% acceptance rate, and that’s for people who don’t have any disqualifying factors. It’s about to become hyper-competitive. If you going to dental school is contingent on receiving the HPSP, I’d find a new career.

Big Hoss
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
I also like all the people on Reddit who say to just do the HPSP. They have no idea how competitive it is. Before these changes in federal student loans, the HPSP was already sub-50% acceptance rate, and that’s for people who don’t have any disqualifying factors. It’s about to become hyper-competitive. If you going to dental school is contingent on receiving the HPSP, I’d find a new career.

Big Hoss
Click to expand...
i met a predent recently who told me, "i'm getting the hpsp scholarship, so it doesn't matter that my only interviews are at expensive schools"...
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
I also like all the people on Reddit who say to just do the HPSP. They have no idea how competitive it is. Before these changes in federal student loans, the HPSP was already sub-50% acceptance rate, and that’s for people who don’t have any disqualifying factors. It’s about to become hyper-competitive. If you going to dental school is contingent on receiving the HPSP, I’d find a new career.

Big Hoss
Click to expand...
When you ask a pre-dent how they'll pay for dental school in light of the BBB they'll say something along the lines of "HPSP, scholarships, or living like a college student when you graduate". It's totally delusional.
 
JacquesVallee said:
When you ask a pre-dent how they'll pay for dental school in light of the BBB they'll say something along the lines of "HPSP, scholarships, or living like a college student when you graduate". It's totally delusional.
Click to expand...
Many will be living like a college student until they retire…if they can even retire.

I wish I could read the minds of the Deans at some of these schools. You know these administrations have had very serious conversations about this upcoming class. They know the party is over. Between now and fall when classes start, they’ll be sweating. Of course, they have not been forthcoming with applicants about any of this.

Predents, apply at your own peril…

Big Hoss
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
Many will be living like a college student until they retire…if they can even retire.

I wish I could read the minds of the Deans at some of these schools. You know these administrations have had very serious conversations about this upcoming class. They know the party is over. Between now and fall when classes start, they’ll be sweating. Of course, they have not been forthcoming with applicants about any of this.

Predents, apply at your own peril…

Big Hoss
Click to expand...

They're probably under a vow of silence imposed by their university president and board. It isn't just the dental school deans sweating about this. (DoEd just threw nursing school and allied health deans under the bus!)

Stressed Everythings Fine GIF by Sal Vulcano
 
Mr.Smile12 said:
They're probably under a vow of silence imposed by their university president and board. It isn't just the dental school deans sweating about this. (DoEd just threw nursing school and allied health deans under the bus!)

Stressed Everythings Fine GIF by Sal Vulcano
Click to expand...
Can’t say I feel bad for Higher Ed. They created this problem. It was never a question if the bubble would pop, it was just a matter of when.

www.forbes.com

Administrative Bloat At U.S. Colleges Is Skyrocketing

A recent report found that on average, the top 50 schools have 1 faculty per 11 students whereas the same institutions have 1 non-faculty employee per 4 students.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com

Big Hoss
 
Someone on pre dental Reddit said "Man you’re going to **** when you actually read that PowerPoint and see they’re literally displaying gross average as 700-800k. Imagine an associate making 700k gross lmao" They actually think the gross average for dentists is equivalent to a neurosurgeon. I'm dying laughing.
 
Big Time Hoosier said:


I can’t believe how stupid some predents are. I don’t know how else to say it.

Big Hoss
Click to expand...

Someone commented "Do what you think is right, I will also have to pay 500k but I will live as poorly as I can once I graduate to pay it back. Yes, school shouldn't cost this much, but everything costs a lot of money nowadays, just know you have to save as much as possible and pay back as soon as you can." I actually don't think it's even possible to pay back 500k+ of dental school loans on standard repayment...
 
JacquesVallee said:
Someone commented "Do what you think is right, I will also have to pay 500k but I will live as poorly as I can once I graduate to pay it back. Yes, school shouldn't cost this much, but everything costs a lot of money nowadays, just know you have to save as much as possible and pay back as soon as you can." I actually don't think it's even possible to pay back 500k+ of dental school loans on standard repayment...
Click to expand...
I see Dave Ramsey getting a lot of good calls in about 5 years when this cohort of dentists enters the workforce and realizes how screwed they are.

1766022806429.gif


Big Hoss
 
JacquesVallee said:
When you ask a pre-dent how they'll pay for dental school in light of the BBB they'll say something along the lines of "HPSP, scholarships, or living like a college student when you graduate". It's totally delusional.
Click to expand...
Yeah, live like a college student.... for a decade or two...
 
I know some dental schools are trying to move their start date to before July 1st to try and get around the BBB loan changes. But…it is my understanding that the loans need to be disbursed before July 1st to be grandfathered in. Are schools aware of this? Imagine starting dental school a few days before July 1st thinking you’re golden, only to have your loans disbursed after that date and then realizing you’re screwed.

Big Hoss
 
Plus the federal government isn't exactly know for being nimble. Do they have the staff and processes in place to suddenly work through the loan processing and disbursement of hundreds, or thousands, of loan apps a month earlier than normal? I could see people submitting these requests early only to have them backlogged and disbursed at the usual time.
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
I know some dental schools are trying to move their start date to before July 1st to try and get around the BBB loan changes. But…it is my understanding that the loans need to be disbursed before July 1st to be grandfathered in. Are schools aware of this? Imagine starting dental school a few days before July 1st thinking you’re golden, only to have your loans disbursed after that date and then realizing you’re screwed.

Big Hoss
Click to expand...
Just posted this clarification on Reddit - Graduate PLUS Loan must be disbursed on or before June 30, 2026 to grandfather eligibility forward. I imagine many schools don't know the nuance. And if those schools' traditional start dates were in Aug/Sept, pulling forward the disbursement date to June 2026 will present logistical challenges. Got my popcorn ready for the train wreck!
 
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