ADHD and Medical School

[C U in MD school]

Hey all,
I am applying to med school this year. I was diagnosed with ADHA. My MCAT score are low because of it (7, 10, 10), I took the test under normal test setting. I'm 25 and I have a lot of work experience in medicine.
Any chance of me getting into med school?
Anyone else has ADHD and is in med school now?
any advice?
which schools take students like me?
how should I let the admission committees know about this? Should I even tell them?
Any advice would help. Thanx!

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[lestat]

Hi - If I was in your situation, I would actually talk to few deans of admissions of some medical school. They'll be the best (and only) people who will give you an accurate answer. Assess their answers and see where you would want to apply. Your MCAT scores are pretty good for your condition, so I think you should be quite optimistic. Good luck!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by C U in MD school:
•Hey all,
I am applying to med school this year. I was diagnosed with ADHA. My MCAT score are low because of it (7, 10, 10), I took the test under normal test setting. I'm 25 and I have a lot of work experience in medicine.
Any chance of me getting into med school?
Anyone else has ADHD and is in med school now?
any advice?
which schools take students like me?
how should I let the admission committees know about this? Should I even tell them?
Any advice would help. Thanx!
•

 

[eyedea]

If you don't mind me asking whats ADHD?

 

[Mad Scientist]

My brother got into med school with a 26 total MCAT, and went on to be AOA and got into a very competitive surgical specialty. With that MCAT you should probably look at the more regional med schools rather than the prestigious research institutions, but you're still an MD in the end.

I don't know about telling the admissions committee or not. My instinct says you should, but don't try to make it into an excuse. And I don't know if you are considering retaking the MCAT with relaxed time limits (if they even allow such a thing), but I would advise against it. From here on out you'll need to be dealing with situations in the same kind of conditions as your non-ADHD peers, and you need to learn to compete under those conditions. (You're not doing bad with a 27 MCAT.)

 

[C U in MD school]

Thank you so much everyone. I will call few med schools and speak to the dean. I'm really happy to hear that people do make it in med school with medical problems.

eyedea ADHD stands for Attention-Deficient Hyperactivity Disorder

 

[C U in MD school]

Anyone else has any great advice for me? I can use all the help. Thanx!

 

[realruby2000]

how do you know if you got ADHD?

 

[Jean Valjean]

eyedea ADHD stands for Attention-Deficient Hyperactivity Disorder[/QB]

Hate to nit pick, but ADHD:
Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder

 

[Barton]

Are you receiving accommodations in your classes? Are you approved for extended time on exams, notetakers, books on tape, etc? You should also get in touch with the schools you are applying to (anonymously, if you please) and see what their programs for people with disabilities are. I work at the campus disability resource center at a large university, and we provide academic accommodations for all students, including med students. I personally know that we are currently providing a variety of services to a number of med students.

 

[Jean Valjean]

how *were* those posting here diagnosed? was anyone given neurological exam d.g. memory like games? Always been very curious. Those on Ritalin ever see the movie "Gross Anatomy"? The main character's roommate in the movie is on methamphetamines/speed to give him an "edge". From stories I've heard, this happens - there are always some med students who use the stuff. That is basically what Ritalin is. Anyone will benefit from it - with or without ADD. Very interesting topic. So how were people diagnosed? I have also heard that Ritalin effectiveness will wear off after a while. Not trying to offend anyone who has ADD - I may have it myself, but in anycase anyone want to reply, but not publicly may email me - [email protected]

 

[C U in MD school]

Barton... thanx for the great info. i did not know i had ADHD until few months ago, so i never used any of the service. but, that's very good to know. may i ask which school you work at?

 

[C U in MD school]

Jean Valjean... yes I was given a neurological exam. but as you get older, i was told that those exams are not taken into account as much as your past history. I was asked a lot of questions about my past, school, friends, etc. anyways, if you want more detail let me know and I can email you.

 

[Barton]

I'm at the University if Wisconsin Madison. Unfortunately, our school has the number one disability services program in the nation. Many schools do not provide the scope or depth of services that we do. But it is definitely worth it to check with your office of disability services. If they don't provide reasonable accommodations to you, they are in violation of the ADA.

 

[C U in MD school]

Thanx Barton, that's great advice.

 

[jwpelley]

You might find these helpful.

The Amen Clinic

Children and Adults with ADHD

jwpelley

 

[C U in MD school]

Thanx jwpelley!

 

[Pandora Box]

Osteopathic Medical schools in the Midwest have long been ignoring Federal Civil rights laws relating to disability discrimination. Medical students with ADHD and Learning Disabilities are routinely not accommodated as required by Federal Civil Rights Laws [the Americans with Disabilities Act]. Medical students with other disabilities are also being shortchanged. Federal regulations [CFR Section 104.4 & 104.7 etc] governing the treatment of learning disabled and other disabled students can be found on the web at http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_00/34cfr104_00.html.
If you suffer from ADHD or learning disabilities or other disabilities and are not being accommodated in accordance with the Americans with Disabilities Act you are urged to contact the Office for Civil Rights, United States Department of Education, 10220 North Executive Hills Boulevard, Kansas City, MO 64153-1367, Phone # 816-880-4200.
The form for filing a complaint at the Education Department is located on the web at http://bcol01.ed.gov/CFAPPS/OCR/complaintform.cfm/. Instructions on how to file your complaint with the Education Department are located on the web at http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/howtofile.html.


You should also contact the State Civil Rights Commission, which in Iowa is the Iowa Civil Rights Commission at 211 East Maple Street, 2nd Floor, Des Moines, Iowa, 50309-1858, Phone # 515-281-4121. The form for filing a complaint with the Iowa Civil Rights Commission is located on the web at http://www.state.ia.us/government/crc/.

 

[C U in MD school]

Thanx Pandora Box!

 

[Jova]

Hello C U in MD school, I have a question for you:

Did you end up calling the Deans of some medical schools and asking them about ADHD and how they regard it? If so what did they say?

I am a med student with ADHD. I have not told anyone at my school because I do not know how people would react. I am curious if there are other med students out there who have disclosed their ADHD.

Please share your experience,
Jova

 

[snow100]

hi CU

i went to a doctor about ADD in college and he said that i had a lot of qualities. i took adderol and it didn't help. i am still not taking anything but may start ritalin here in a few weeks. but i am in medical school and a very good one at that, so you can do well. i did not tell anyone that i had it though.

snow

 

[AllAboutTheGame]

Maybe you shouldn't be a doctor if you have ADHD. It might not be the best thing for you or your patients. If someone needs more time on an exam because of mental difficulties then how is this person supposed to think on their feet and br a good doctor? Its not like HS or college, people's lives are at stake. I just don't know if its appropriate.

 

[ADT]

By that same logic, someone with diabetes, hypertension, hypercholesteremia should be doctors either. Heck, someone with a history of torn ACL shouldn't might not be appropriate either, since they might reinjure themselves on route to a critical trauma and jeapordize the patient's care. Come now, as a future medical professional, do not fall into the bias that one type of condition is "acceptable" while another is not. Learning and mental disorders are every bit as common as cardiovascular or endocrine disorders. Implying that one vs. the other is ok for doctors to be afflicted with is preposterous.

 

[djmd]

By that same logic, someone with diabetes, hypertension, hypercholesteremia should be doctors either. Heck, someone with a history of torn ACL shouldn't might not be appropriate either, since they might reinjure themselves on route to a critical trauma and jeapordize the patient's care.

Look I am all for accepting and working with people and their problems, but what are you saying? Should we allow the blind to be doctors?
I thought about this example as ER had the deaf doctor, and I don't see how it could be done.

My point is not 'do we or don't we', but more don't jump down somebodies throat just for asking a question that should be asked. Even if the answer is no...

-S-

 

[Barton]

There are blind doctors, you know. I spent an entire summer working as a reader/research assistant to a blind MD/PhD student. Btw, his class rank was #1.

 

[UHS2002]

Unfortunately, it is true that a lot of people who did ok as undergrads, "suddenly discover" that they have ADHD or ADD in medical school. That is a CROCK!

If you did fine (which means average or above) as an undergrad and in high school, then you DON'T have ADHD/ADD. Otherwise, do you guys think that everyone who doesn't do well in some kind of intellectual pursuit is because he/she has a "disability" ??? Well, perhaps, if you consider that "being less smart" or "being less hard working" or "being less motivated" is a disability...

We had plenty of people in my class who suddenly found out they had ADHD/ADD during medical school. Why??? How did they manage to do fine in their previous schooling with ADHD/ADD??? Well, let me tell you, it is easy to get Ritalin, and it is a methamphetamine and yes, it will give anybody an edge, by boosting your energy and alertness (both of which are usually spent by the second month of med school). You go to a doc and recite your "sad, sad story". Everyone knows what the signs/symptoms of ADHD/ADD are and it is not hard to fake. It is probably the easiset way to get a substance of abuse, otherwise illegal, in a legal manner.

Personally, if I ever have an adult patient that comes to me singing the "I think I have ADD/ADHD song" or "subtly" trying to lead me to that diagnosis, I will say "fine, it is possible you have ADD. Please, bring me some old transcripts from school and we can discuss what to do from there." Basically, people can get their fix from someone else. People who were Eagle Scouts, valedictorians of their High School class, 3.2 gpa in college, etc etc (you get the idea) don't have ADD/ADHD. People who made through college and took the MCAT and did reasonably well, don't suddenly "come down" with ADD.

Everybody will have plenty of classmates who will pull off this type of stunt. You will also have the same 2-3 individuals who, come finals time, will invariably be ill, it never fails, and require a postponement. So they get a week more than you to study. However, at the end, their GPA and class ranking is calculated with yours, so don't be surprised if these "sickly individuals" come out several class rankings and GPA points ahead of you... Not to mention that it is annoying as hell to have to wait an extra week to know your grade on a big test because, "guess who", AGAIN hasn't taken the test yet...That is not to say that everyone who has to take a test late is pulling that trick. We had people in the hospital, people whose mom died, people who were in a car accident and so on and those instances never annoyed anybody. But you end up with a few of the SAME jokers every test block, who just always need a few more days to study...and they often are the same jokers who were suddenly diagnosed with ADHD/ADD in med school.

Sorry, but I had to say my piece. This ranks way high on my list of med school pet peeves.

 

[djmd]

There are blind doctors, you know. I spent an entire summer working as a reader/research assistant to a blind MD/PhD student. Btw, his class rank was #1.

What field was he planning on going into?
I used this as an example because I could think of a clinical field where someone who was blind could be a doctor.
I'm not saying I can't be wrong but I don't see how it can be done.
How can someone who isn't an MD look at an EKG or icteric sclera and describe it to an MD?

Now non clincal I can understand, but clinical I don't know how that would work.
-S-

 

[Barton]

The guy I worked with is going into biochem research (he's an md/phd). I asked him about this while I was working with him, and the only clinical field he came up with was psych.

 

[different strokes]

Originally posted by UHS2002:
•Unfortunately, it is true that a lot of people who did ok as undergrads, "suddenly discover" that they have ADHD or ADD in medical school. That is a CROCK!

If you did fine (which means average or above) as an undergrad and in high school, then you DON'T have ADHD/ADD. Otherwise, do you guys think that everyone who doesn't do well in some kind of intellectual pursuit is because he/she has a "disability" ??? Well, perhaps, if you consider that "being less smart" or "being less hard working" or "being less motivated" is a disability...

We had plenty of people in my class who suddenly found out they had ADHD/ADD during medical school. Why??? How did they manage to do fine in their previous schooling with ADHD/ADD??? Well, let me tell you, it is easy to get Ritalin, and it is a methamphetamine and yes, it will give anybody an edge, by boosting your energy and alertness (both of which are usually spent by the second month of med school). You go to a doc and recite your "sad, sad story". Everyone knows what the signs/symptoms of ADHD/ADD are and it is not hard to fake. It is probably the easiset way to get a substance of abuse, otherwise illegal, in a legal manner.

Personally, if I ever have an adult patient that comes to me singing the "I think I have ADD/ADHD song" or "subtly" trying to lead me to that diagnosis, I will say "fine, it is possible you have ADD. Please, bring me some old transcripts from school and we can discuss what to do from there." Basically, people can get their fix from someone else. People who were Eagle Scouts, valedictorians of their High School class, 3.2 gpa in college, etc etc (you get the idea) don't have ADD/ADHD. People who made through college and took the MCAT and did reasonably well, don't suddenly "come down" with ADD.

Everybody will have plenty of classmates who will pull off this type of stunt. You will also have the same 2-3 individuals who, come finals time, will invariably be ill, it never fails, and require a postponement. So they get a week more than you to study. However, at the end, their GPA and class ranking is calculated with yours, so don't be surprised if these "sickly individuals" come out several class rankings and GPA points ahead of you... Not to mention that it is annoying as hell to have to wait an extra week to know your grade on a big test because, "guess who", AGAIN hasn't taken the test yet...That is not to say that everyone who has to take a test late is pulling that trick. We had people in the hospital, people whose mom died, people who were in a car accident and so on and those instances never annoyed anybody. But you end up with a few of the SAME jokers every test block, who just always need a few more days to study...and they often are the same jokers who were suddenly diagnosed with ADHD/ADD in med school.

Sorry, but I had to say my piece. This ranks way high on my list of med school pet peeves.•

To discover if one has a learning disorder or ADD/ADHD, it is not as simple as going to your family doc and asking for the diagnosis. You are often referred to a psychologist and the psychologist will put you through a battery of neuropsychological exams. These exams are often very costly to insurance companies and very draining on the individual having to sit for them. Based on the observations made from a psychologist and results of the exams, ADD/ADHD or a learning disorder can be detected.

Before a student in college or grad/med/law school can use disability services in school, a report from a psychologist (the test examiner) describing the disability and the need for services, must be shown to the disability services office at the school the student is attending.

I was a disabilities counselor in a college and it is not easy for students with any disorder to obtain services such as time extensiion, delaying exams, etc. Once more the student needs to show proof of their disability.

This is a very time consuming process for the student.

 

[different strokes]

Originally posted by AllAboutTheGame:
•Maybe you shouldn't be a doctor if you have ADHD. It might not be the best thing for you or your patients. If someone needs more time on an exam because of mental difficulties then how is this person supposed to think on their feet and br a good doctor? Its not like HS or college, people's lives are at stake. I just don't know if its appropriate.•

This is a very common ignorant response that many people have. A person with a disability will not need extra time for everything they do. A disability does not mean that an individual has problems in every area of learning and functioning.

 

[Jova]

Originally posted by AllAboutTheGame:
•Maybe you shouldn't be a doctor if you have ADHD. It might not be the best thing for you or your patients. If someone needs more time on an exam because of mental difficulties then how is this person supposed to think on their feet and br a good doctor? Its not like HS or college, people's lives are at stake. I just don't know if its appropriate.•

This type of ignorance makes me sick!!!

UHS2002 and AllAboutTheGame--I am ashamed to think of you as potential colleagues. Please, make an attempt to overcome your na?vet?!!

 

[djmd]

This type of ignorance makes me sick!!!
------------------------
This is a very common ignorant response that many people have.

Very nice Jova and different strokes.
Someone (Allaboutthegame) posts a completely acceptable concern, and you jump down their throats. Rather than having a reasonable discussion about it.

As I pointed out not every disability can be every clinical doctor. (my example was a blind individual).

If ADHD means one has problems focusing on details in a distracted environment, I'm not sure I would want a poorly controlled ADHD running a busy ED.

And UHS2002's point is a fair one. I have heard of people working the system to get Ritalin for that extra psuedo legal edge...

But rather than discuss it and clear up any presumed ignorance different strokes and Jova would rather call them ignorant.

Jova, your abrasiness shames me, do you plan on attacking your patients like that too?
Try educating people rather than inflamitory remarks.

-S-

 

[Jova]

To djmd,

Wow. Really now, get real. My first post states that I chose not to disclose ADHD because I did not know how people would react. Perhaps you all answered that question. Unfourtunately some people, in their ingnorance, make false conclusions about issues rather than seek education.

You as well as the other posters who I mentioned are obviously not informed about what it means to have ADHD. That is okay. However, rather than making very, very, false assumptions about a person's ability to preform under pressure (the examples given were ER and OR) you need to educate yourself!
You are a 4th year student? Do you usually just assume your opinions are facts when regarding a patient's disease/syndrome/disorder with which you are not familiar?. . . Ouch.

True, my use of the word "ignorant" may be a bit offensive.--But I cannot educate every person, (I'd like to). I have to trust that people in the medical proffesion are educated enough to seek information for themselves!!
Though we cannot know everything about every condition, we can certainly do some research on that condition before openning our mouths to our patients and others. As physicians, we must realize where our own knowledge base lacks. We must have the integrity to follow through by using our resourses to learn more and fill those gaps before judging others.

The biases that people who are "different" encounter are real. Differences come in many forms, race, sex, age, sexual orientation, height, weight, learning process, shoe size, among countless others.--Regardless of how someone is "different," judging someone's ability based on these differences alone, is ignorant.

For the record, I am going to be a damn good surgeon!


Sorry for the long post and I don't mean to offend anyone personally,

Jova

 

[Jova]

I will continue with some specific comentary using actual quotes from the previous posts. Hopefully, I can at least help the education process.

Originally posted by AllAboutTheGame:
•Maybe you shouldn't be a doctor if you have ADHD.. . because of mental difficulties then how is this person supposed to think on their feet and br a good doctor? ...•

Truth: People with ADHD do not have "mental difficulties" and can "think on their feet." People with ADHD usually have average or above average intelligence and perform extremely well under pressure. Most people with ADHD actually hyperfocus on high-stimulus activities.

Originally posted by UHS2002:
•If you did fine (which means average or above average) as an undergrad and in high school, then you DON'T have ADHD.•

Truth: Again, ADHD is not defined in any way by grades. The above statement is as ridiculus as saying "If you have brown hair then you DON'T have diabetes."--A false statement, and a scary one coming from a future physician.

Regarding UHS2002's comments about stimulant drugs: Read about the paradoxal effect of amphetamines on persons with ADHD. When people with ADHD take stimulant drugs, it does not make them "high" or give them a "competitive edge." Infact, it is quite the opposite; stimulant drugs are "calming" for people with ADHD. The analogy I will use here is one of people with high blood pressure. People with high BP take medication which lowers BP. The goal is that with their high BP, the medication that acts to lower BP will allow their blood pressure to be in the normal range. If a person has normal blood pressure and takes this same medication which acts to lower blood pressure, the results would be different and perhaps dangerous.--Their blood pressure would be too low. Not to dumb-down my explaination for this medically-educated audience, but people have different "brain chemistries" too. That is, endogenous concentrations of certain neurotransmitters differ within us all. Taking medication which act to change these concentrations allow some people to be in the "normal range." Does this make sense?

Originally posted by djmd:
•I thought about this examle as ER had the deaf doctor, and I don't see how it could be done."•

Perhaps then it is you who will be the blind doctor.

I know that sounded harsh, but I could not resist that observation. (Feel free to say that I am "abrasive.") I just have higher expectations of fourth-year med students. Mainly, I expect a certain amount of open-mindedness and willingness to approach situations from multiple perspectives.

As far as your concern about my ability to interact with my patients: Not to worry, they will each know that I am on their side and that I will do my best to understand their condition within the context of their lives; they will know that I will not judge them for their circumstance or their quest for treatment. They will also know that I will offer my opinion for whatever its worth.


Just my opinion, for whatever its worth,
Jova

 

[AllAboutTheGame]

Well if ADHD is not in anyway a factor in the persons schooling or career then why should it even be mentioned? Or maybe it's just that ADHD is an overdiagnosed "disorder" in an era where every problem is a disorder of disease.

 

[djmd]

Jova,
Your opinion of what fourth year medical students should and should not do, with standing (what is your position again?), you are missing my point in an attempt to defend your own.

(admitedly I could have been more clear)
I said running an ED would be hard for an ADHD doctor.
Running a ED is not the consant live and die of "ER", but rather a constant flood of very mundane problems, some of which BECOME critical after seeming routine. The problem is if you have difficultly focusing in the appropriate patient before them become the ovbious crisis then that would be bad.
(not to mention that fact that I said poorly controlled ADHD)

Jova, you need to learn to read what someone is saying and give them their due attention.
I am sure that normally you do better than this and this issue personally important to you, so I can understand your response.

But Jova you suggest that I should be a blind doctor?
I am not incorrect of suggesting that there are few jobs that a blind doctor could do in a clinical setting. (a student who worked with a blind PhD,MD student said that he had suggested as much himself)

It is not wrong to have a open and unbiased discussion about the ethics and acceptableness of almost any situation.
By calling names, and suggesting people are wholely ignorant (before metioning the facts) is unfair and unwise.

Lastly, there has been reasonable discussion that ADHD is overdiagnosised. There have also been reports and concerns of adults and people who are not ADHD getting the diagnosis to receive inappropriate meidcation.

I never once said that you would no make a good doctor, nor never said that any problems with ADHD doctors could not be overcome...
My point was simply that you can not expect that not matter what your problem/disabiliy/skill level you can be any kind of doctor.
Someone with poor hadn eye coordination would be foolish to expect to make a career as a vascular or hand surgeon.

(long enough?)

-DjMd-

 

[DaMoose]

I hope the previous discussion was helpful to "C U in md school"...

Medical school presents you with an endless array of experiences in your classes and rotations. As you've seen, it's difficult to give you a "correct" answer. Each professor/attending sees ADHD in a different light. The reality of it is you will be judged not only on your performance but also by each professor's/Attending's biases towards ADHD (if you choose to reveal this). IMHO, most attendings (during your clinical years) take the attitude that you are/will be a physician. People's lives rest on your hands. There are no excuses. My advice to you, don't take the risk. Telling your dean is not going to make any difference, 'cause he's not there when your surgery attending chews you out, and then fail you.

If you decide to let people know, here's another tip: Pediatricians and Family physicians are usually more sympathetic. Don't mess with any of the surgical attendings. They love to eat you up... hehe.

 

[trouserz]

i am reading some of these posts and laughing at some of these comments. The truth is that students with ADHD (those who graduate from high school alright) certainly have the ability to get 4.0s in undergrad if they are motivated enough. typically coping mechanisms are utilized eg frequent breaks during studying, study buddies, extra time to study etc but it seems to me that the didactics of med school are enough to overwhelm the non medicated ADHD student despite using previously effective coping mechanisms. Medications do level the playing field a bit between adhd and non adhd students. It takes therapeutic levels of ritalin for the ADHD student just to feel "normal". Amphetamines at high doses are avoided with people with adhd because they know how nervous they feel at high levels of rit. There is really no advantage to the true adhd student on ritalin. The non adhd student on the other hand may have the advantage if put on ritalin. I have by the way had ADHD diagnosed since 3 and have been off ritalin since 12 secondary to hating ritalins side effects. I have recieved straight a's in college once i got motivated and goal directed.

 

[trouserz]

By the way ever feel the urge to just get up in the middle of class and jump out the window in front of the teacher. I did that and that is what it is like to have adhd. impulsivity, lack of attention to detail, careless mistakes and excessive distractibility are the hallmark signs i have had since i was born

 

[MS04MEDIC]

ADD,more common in adults than ADHD,is full of challenges for med students or MD's. Having ADD can actually benefit physicians- if a specialty is choosen that is complimentary. A pathologist with true ADD may go nuts. ER, surgery, gas, etc. would be ideal specialties for people with ADD. Of course, people and personalities are always different. ADD is only an obstacle.

 

[ryandel]

The road to medical school and medical itself is about perserverance. Some of us are luckier than others. Some of us get to deal with a lot of hurdles. I'm only 24 but already my legs are messed up. I suffer from severe varicose veins. It is painful and I cannot stand for long periods of time. I sometimes wonder if this will affect if I get to choose surgury as a specialty. I wonder about it because I sometimes feel that vascular surgury is my calling.
But in my opinion, I don't feel that my circulatory problems lessen my worth as a physician or as a person. In addition, I feel my condition provides me with a personal perspective on the characteristics of having circulatory complications. I applaud the students who are going full force to becoming physicians with ADD or ADHD. Your insight to your future patients who have ADD or ADHD will be extremely helpful.