thundercat77

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Can you ever file a lawsuit to a medical school for admissions? What factors can you base the lawsuit on (race, qualifications, religion)??

Does anybody know of any cases other than the Bakke decision?

Thanks
 

relatively prime

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Theoretically... you can sue for anything. It's getting a lawyer to defend your case... what the chances are that you'll win... and if you think it's worth the money to take that chance.
 

2badr

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I guess you would also have to consider the consequences of winning and then attending the school......
 
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Casey

I had a friend who was asked some less than legal questions about an illness during her interview. The faculty member basically told her that since she had suffered from a certain disease 3 yrs ago, she would not be able to cut it in med school. Nevermind her excellent stats and EC's. Anyway, after she got a straight rejection letter, she contacted a lawyer who was willing to take on the case.

However, she didn't pursue the issue because she was accepted to several other schools.
 

aggieboy02

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In addition to Bakke, I remember some cases in Texas (can't remember specific names) that my professor talked about in an Asian American Studies class... something to do with URM status/MCAT scores, I believe...
 

dr kevin40

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don't u think that if u SUE THE SCHOOL TO GET IN, u'll kinda be ummmmmmm blacklisted by all the profs and administrators? do u think that this will be reflected positively in ur letters and evals?
 
K

Katie

An white male applicant in Maryland filed a suit against UMAB SOM last year saying that his application had not been given the same consideration as the applications of URM's. He had a lot of problems in his case though, such as a lousy letter of recommendation he received and the fact that he is somewhat older (age 39, and whether we like to admit it or not, applicants that much older are not looked upon as favorably by adcoms as are younger applicants). The man, Robert Farmer, lost the case and was appealing the last time I heard in September. I don't think his case was particularly strong because he was not accepted or even interviewed at any other U.S. schools. I know of other applicants to UMAB that would have had a stronger case, but they have not sued the school (mostly because they got into other places). I will keep quiet on the matter for now because I have had more than enough of fighting over touchy issues with people on SDN lately (and affirmative action is one of the touchiest of all time), but if anyone wants a link to the article(s) on the case I can get them from the Baltimore Sun if you wish. thanks..
 

Diogenes

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Originally posted by Katie
I don't think his case was particularly strong because he was not accepted or even interviewed at any other U.S. schools.
He wasn't even interviewed anywhere else? What a bitter, pathetic loser.:laugh: :laugh:
 
K

Katie

Originally posted by Diogenes


He wasn't even interviewed anywhere else? What a bitter, pathetic loser.:laugh: :laugh:
Yeah, I have to agree with you on this one. I think he should have worked on getting another letter of recommendation to replace the bad one. I understand that he worked hard to raise his MCAT score and overcome a background of poverty, but it is the applicant's responsibility to make sure that everything in their file is in good shape regardless. Letters of rec are much more important than many people think they are; my interviewer at PSU looked through my recs (std. procedure at a number of schools during the interview process) when I first sat down with her and she told me that they were very good. Just preaching to the choir of med school applicants out there:) But yeah, for the guy to sue the school because he couldn't get a replacement letter is just stupid. He ended up at some carribean school and came back to B-more demanding to be transferred into the clinical years at Maryland. :rolleyes:
 

futrfysician

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Originally posted by Katie

He ended up at some carribean school and came back to B-more demanding to be transferred into the clinical years at Maryland. :rolleyes:
Do you know this for a fact, or are you just passing along what you heard from someone's aunt's cousins', sisters' , boyfriends' Mother who heard it at 31 Flavors?
 

vyc

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i think there are betters way to spend one's time and money than in getting into a legal battles over admissions.
 

Bikini Princess

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Med student friends tell me this happens more than you think. However, the kids they knew dropped out anyway after the 2nd year.
 

silvercholla

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Originally posted by Bikini Princess
However, the kids they knew dropped out anyway after the 2nd year.
SURPRISE SURPRISE:rolleyes: If you spend all of your energy beating the dead admissions horse, instead realizing that you are not a strong applicant, then guess what.... you probably won't make it all the way through. I think that the "plaintiffs":rolleyes: should have just sat back, reeevaluated their apps, fixed the shortcomings, retake the MCAT and reapply for next year.

Look if you are rejected there are a lot of other ways to spend your money than using it on some silly lawsuit. Besides do you really want to go to a school that you have sued to get in.... How uncomfortable would that be! :eek:
 
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relatively prime

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Anyone heard of a ~very qualified~ Asian applicant suing on the basis of racial discrimination? I wonder how that would go...
 

relatively prime

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Originally posted by Neuronix
http://www.ceousa.org/MDMED.pdf

This sort of thing makes me tend to believe the guy who sued. These guys at www.ceousa.org also have a bunch of other studies that show that medical schools do give minorities greater consideration than non-minorities.
Well that article was very poorly written... so I couldn't even bring myself to read it all.

I don't care if Medical schools give minorities preference... I just wish they would stop pretending that they don't. I hate the "race, gender, religion, or national origin are not factors in the admissions process" line that almost every single medical school gives. Why do they need to say that? It's such a lie.

I really respect Univeristy of Michigan for not using that line and for openly saying that they participate in affirmative action. Why can't all schools just do that?
 

altaskier

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You don't want to sue a school and then end up going there. The whole school would freakin hate you and you'd have a miserable med school experience. Forget about sueing!!!
 

DW

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"For 1999, the probability of admission of a black applicant with a total MCAT score of 45 and a science GPA of 3.5 was 90 percent, as compared to 31 percent for a similar white applicant, 23 percent for an Asian applicant, and 53 percent for a Hispanic applicant."

Pasted directly from the beginning of the article. At first read, you're thinking to yourself "how the hell are there that many people applying to this school with a 45, and how the hell would this many people with 45s only have 3.5 GPAs? I didn't sent them a primary, did I?"...but then you read further.......

"As noted above, the MCAT is made up of four subtests: verbal reasoning, physical science, biological science, and writing. USMS?s weighted total score is obtained by doubling the writing score and adding that number to the physical science, biological science, and verbal reasoning subscores."

Ok, so either two things are possible here: the first, the authors have no idea what they are talking about, or second, this is one seriously ******ed med school. Damn all these posts that said not to worry about the writing sample. Verbal the most important section my *ss!!!!!

"Dear applicant, while you have a perfect 4.0 GPA, two publications in Science, opened a homeless shelter and clinic, and scored a 13-15 verbal, 15 physical, 15 bio, we're sorry, that 'P' is just not going to cut it in our medical school. Have you thought about medical school in the carribean or garbage collection?"

Obviously I get the implied gist of their analysis, but that was really funny.:laugh: :laugh:
 

ComplexPuzzle

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Ok well I read the supposed study and agree that it sucks. I didn't even make it to the intro before I said no more please. Speaking as an underrepresented minority without subpar stats I would have to say that not all blacks get in with below average scores. Additionally, I think that some preference is given to URM b/c of historical and current socioeconomic status and availability of resources. A white counterpart may excel more so than a black individual because of the resource and support network available to them. Now I'm not saying there is not equality out there. It's just that the African American community is notorius for being less informed. So I think this must be taken into consideration. This being said I don't agree with affirmative action if it takes subpar candidates. I believe that all people independent of their ethnicity, social status or other factor should be well qualified. I just believe that the way in which this ample qualification is demonstrated may differ between groups. I'm not trying to start anything just sharing my thoughts.:)
 

Ryo-Ohki

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Why did it "suck"? Please elaborate. Organization? Layout? Incorrect factual statements?

Yes, not all blacks get into medical school with sub-par scores. What exactly are you trying to say with that statement?

If AA applicants are just as qualified as non-AA applicants, why would AA even exist?
 

Samoa

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It will take less time and less money to improve your application so that a med school will accept you without a lawsuit, than it will to sue one, win, and then live with the stigma for the whole four years there.

It's not right, but even the roughest residency is nothing like the beating you would get from trying to fight the system.
 

Ryo-Ohki

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It's part of doing what is right. This country did not become great by people just sitting by and letting these injustices happen.


I see that "blame the victim" rationalizations are plentiful here.
 
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Samoa

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I think that a lot of injustice is done in the admissions process, and if I ever have a chance to right it from within, I'd do my utmost. But people who talk about the nobility of "fighting the good fight" and disparage others for seeking less adversarial methods seem to forget that that fight in question was lost.
 

dr kevin40

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Originally posted by DW
"For 1999, the probability of admission of a black applicant with a total MCAT score of 45 and a science GPA of 3.5 was 90 percent, as compared to 31 percent for a similar white applicant, 23 percent for an Asian applicant, and 53 percent for a Hispanic applicant."

a 45 on the mcats??!!!
 

Diogenes

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Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
I see that "blame the victim" rationalizations are plentiful here.
What victim?

I'm white and I got into med school. What's his problem? He isn't a good enough applicant. That's HIS fault.

Blame the system rationalizations are plentiful among the rejects.
 

Samoa

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Originally posted by relatively prime

I really respect Univeristy of Michigan for not using that line and for openly saying that they participate in affirmative action. Why can't all schools just do that?
Michigan's Circuit Court of Appeals hasn't overturned affirmative action, that's why.

And by the way, I'm a reject, and yes, it was the SYSTEM's fault, all the way. I am in no way responsible for the fact that my GPA sucks.:D
 

Diogenes

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Originally posted by Samoa

And by the way, I'm a reject, and yes, it was the SYSTEM's fault, all the way. I am in no way responsible for the fact that my GPA sucks.:D
At last a refreshing breath of honesty! (well, once you infer sarcasm anyway)
 

Samoa

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INFER??? Man, you ARE a grammar maven, aren't you. :p That's OK, I am too, but people don't like it when you correct their grammar (actually this would be syntax), so I just keep it to myself.:rolleyes:
 

Ryo-Ohki

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Yeah, those white rejects whine so much. They say the most ridiculous things like how medical school admissions should be based on merit not race.

So what if they got rejected at UCLA Med with a 30 MCAT and 3.5 GPA and more then a dozen URMs got into that same school with 25 MCATs and 3.1 GPAs? They should have scored higher on their MCAT and studied more in college! It's their fault!


Don't blame the vicitims to rationalize the harmful effects of AA. Innocent people do suffer because of AA, no matter how much you try to place the blame on them.
 

Bikini Princess

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Originally posted by Samoa
It will take less time and less money to improve your application so that a med school will accept you without a lawsuit, than it will to sue one, win, and then live with the stigma for the whole four years there.

It's not right, but even the roughest residency is nothing like the beating you would get from trying to fight the system.
What I suspect:
You don't have to win the lawsuit, settle, or even file one. You just have to threaten a lawsuit. Adcoms would rather cave than partake in a messy legal battle.
 

silvercholla

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UM.... Isn't this board about suing. I'm quite sure there is an AA thread somewhere:D Anyway I said it before and I'll say it again, do you reallllllllllyyyyyy want to go to a school that you've just finished suing?????

As for the AA thing, well there are a lot of factors in AA that make it ineffective. Yes it has given some people a foot up, but it still is (IMO) a very imperfect system. Too many exclusions. There are "victims on both ends and invariably someone is going to get pissed off. So just be happy for the freakin lucky SOB and work on your own life and goals. Use it as an incentive to work that much harder.

As for the "sub-par" applicants, well let's be perfectly honest here... if you need to spend thousands and thousands of dollars to sue a school that rejected you. (And you didn't get into any other school) well then your a schmuck!!!! You should have been preapring for a retake and post bac work.

I am a weak candidate and I am taking steps to repair the damage. If your mind is on a lawsuit then go to Law School. Otherwise grow up stop B*tching and use the extra time (and money) wisely. On the other end... if it's a legitimate suit and a continuous problem that the school seems to be cultivating, then by all means right the wrong.

Bottom line people... it is rarely a good thing to bring a law suit to a school and then attend there. Your experience could be short and miserable. But that's just MHO
 

DW

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i feel the AA dead horse being dragged out here, primed for another vicious beating :laugh:
 

relatively prime

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Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
Yeah, those white rejects whine so much. They say the most ridiculous things like how medical school admissions should be based on merit not race.

So what if they got rejected at UCLA Med with a 30 MCAT and 3.5 GPA and more then a dozen URMs got into that same school with 25 MCATs and 3.1 GPAs? They should have scored higher on their MCAT and studied more in college! It's their fault!


Don't blame the vicitims to rationalize the harmful effects of AA. Innocent people do suffer because of AA, no matter how much you try to place the blame on them.
So why is it ok to stereotype white people? Not all white people who get rejected bitch and moan about affirmative action.

I'm for affirmative action... but I think it's gone a bit overboard. I don't see how accepting URM students with 20s and 21s (like they do at quite a few lower tier schools) really helps anyone... in fact it probably does more harm than good. Why accept a student who's most likely not going to make it through medical school? That just ruins their self esteem... and the esteem of their entire community.

The system really needs to be revised. I'm a much bigger fan of schools that do active recruiting of URMs... that go to colleges and univeristies and help URMs from way back.... and help bring them to the medical school arena qualified and prepared. But that would take a lot more work... and would mean that these schools have to really care about the struggles of minorities... not just about keeping up an appearance.

Personally, I think all the qualified Asians are the ones who should be bitching and moaning... and sueing.
 
K

Katie

Originally posted by futrfysician


Do you know this for a fact, or are you just passing along what you heard from someone's aunt's cousins', sisters' , boyfriends' Mother who heard it at 31 Flavors?
Yes, I do know this from a Baltimore Sun article. The Baltimore Sun is a legitimate newspaper that has been distributed in the state of MD for at least 60 years. Mr. Farmer attended Saba University School of Medicine for 2 years and now wants to transfer into Maryland. After discussing the case again with my mom the other night, I do have to admit that it is not the easiest thing to obtain an unflattering letter of recommendation from a pre-med office since most pressure you to waive your right to see these letters. Apparently Robert Farmer did not know about the bad letter of recommendation until he appeared in court for the hearing. Still, I think it would have been easier for him to take his lawyer to the pre-med office at Towson State University (which was where he did his post-bac work) rather than to sue the whole medical school. but that's just me. I will be glad to obtain a link to the B-more Sun article; just give me a sec;)
 
K

Katie

oops, sorry, I did not know that the B-more Sun required a fee to retrieve the full text of articles over 2 weeks old. Apparently this is a new service. I apologize for giving you misinformation, but if you are willing to pay the fee to look up the article go to www.sunspot.net or www.baltimoresun.com and you should be able to find the directions there.

Ryo-Ohki, I hope that you are being sarcastic about white people being the whiners all the time. I have sure noticed a lot of whining from people of most races on this board, and I admit I have been known to whine myself. The "Asian Girls/White Guys" thread is a great example of people blaming society for all of their problems in attracting the opposite sex. I understand that stereotypes are not a good thing and can unfortunately set people back, but at a certain point people need to stop whining and get on with life. Many of the Asian men in my class have girlfriends (at least 3 are dating white women, contrary to the stereotype), and in the case of those who do not I tend to think it is because of religious beliefs (e.g. Muslim) that prevent them from dating or because they are kind of shy and studious and have less time to date. These statements also apply to the white, Hispanic, and black men in our class. Anyway, sorry to get off on that topic, but my point is that I do agree with the sentiment on here that you can only blame society so much. I also agree with the statement that in most cases it is not helpful to anyone to admit students with <3.0 and <24 MCAT's just because they are URM.
 

Spiderman [RNA Ladder 2003]

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It would be much better to sue AMCAS or somebody like that, not directly connected to the schools. Sueing the school and then enrolling in there is a killing because everyone there would know what you've done. Instructor are also likely to give a person poor grades. obody likes complainors and it is a really bad ay to start a way into medicine. Even though you may graduate, it would be tough to get LORs for the residencies.
 
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