Advantage to the Minority?

[Questionasker]

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I just received news and am trying to straighten this all out to keep my sanity, and I know this is a sensitive topic so I am not using my everyday SDN, its just too risky. Anyway, I just received news that a good friend was just accepted to our state medical school. He called me 6 weeks ago freaking that his MCAT of 26 was way below the average of 32 for the school. He has a decent GPA ~3.7 from a small out of state public school and one summer of research stint at private medical school in the same state. Student athlete if that counts for anything major. My other good friend applied last year with a 3.89 GPA from a small state school, a 30 MCAT, the best letters of Rec my advisor and his current medical school have ever seen ( no lie thats what they said) and was an intern for two years for the state school only to be turned down. Fortunately he got into our states private medical school but I am just lost on reasons why. I am wondering because my stats are closer to my second friend and the only reason other than a catastrophic interview mess up, I don't see how friend 1 was chosen while friend 2 was not, is that friend 1 can claim Native American Minority Status because he is 1/8th. Is that really a big enough difference to push someone over the average by 6 MCAT points and a better GPA. I am just wondering being selfish here. Is there any way that coming from a disadvantaged background like raised by single parent on disability, that would give someone that kind of minority status or is minority status purely racial? Please don't be upset and vicious in response, just wanting to be a doc like everyone else here.

 

[Chipster.]

I just received news and am trying to straighten this all out to keep my sanity, and I know this is a sensitive topic so I am not using my everyday SDN, its just too risky. Anyway, I just received news that a good friend was just accepted to our state medical school. He called me 6 weeks ago freaking that his MCAT of 26 was way below the average of 32 for the school. He has a decent GPA ~3.7 from a small out of state public school and one summer of research stint at private medical school in the same state. Student athlete if that counts for anything major. My other good friend applied last year with a 3.89 GPA from a small state school, a 30 MCAT, the best letters of Rec my advisor and his current medical school have ever seen ( no lie thats what they said) and was an intern for two years for the state school only to be turned down. Fortunately he got into our states private medical school but I am just lost on reasons why. I am wondering because my stats are closer to my second friend and the only reason other than a catastrophic interview mess up, I don't see how friend 1 was chosen while friend 2 was not, is that friend 1 can claim Native American Minority Status because he is 1/8th. Is that really a big enough difference to push someone over the average by 6 MCAT points and a better GPA. I am just wondering being selfish here. Is there any way that coming from a disadvantaged background like raised by single parent on disability, that would give someone that kind of minority status or is minority status purely racial? Please don't be upset and vicious in response, just wanting to be a doc like everyone else here.

Yes, this is most likely due to his 1/8th native american heritage, but somehow I get the feeling he played it up a little bit more than that. And there is a socioeconomic status (SES) disadvantage that you can mark down on AMCAS but it does not give you nearly the boost that being a URM does.

 

[Pacna]

...and heree weeee go!

 

[Chipster.]

...and heree weeee go!

Not trying to start anything, just answering the question honestly.

 

[solitarius]

Being URM is huge.
Being white is average.
Being ORM is slightly less than average.

 

[DokterMom]

There's genetically Native American and culturally Native American.
There are not very many qualified applicants from Native American Communities, and your friend IS a qualified applicant, if not as highly qualified as many ORMs. So if he's officially a member of a recognized tribe and/or culturally Native American, then yes, that could have been influential, particularly if s/he is interested in serving the NA community later (or convincingly said so).
If your friend is 1/8th genetically NA but not at all culturally NA, then IMO, s/he's gaming the system in a way that's dishonest.

 

[amazing tekkers]

Maybe he fit what the school was looking for, for instance, some rural schools aim to serve rural areas and addressing native american health issues.

 

[I Love Cats]

I just received news and am trying to straighten this all out to keep my sanity, and I know this is a sensitive topic so I am not using my everyday SDN, its just too risky. Anyway, I just received news that a good friend was just accepted to our state medical school. He called me 6 weeks ago freaking that his MCAT of 26 was way below the average of 32 for the school. He has a decent GPA ~3.7 from a small out of state public school and one summer of research stint at private medical school in the same state. Student athlete if that counts for anything major. My other good friend applied last year with a 3.89 GPA from a small state school, a 30 MCAT, the best letters of Rec my advisor and his current medical school have ever seen ( no lie thats what they said) and was an intern for two years for the state school only to be turned down. Fortunately he got into our states private medical school but I am just lost on reasons why. I am wondering because my stats are closer to my second friend and the only reason other than a catastrophic interview mess up, I don't see how friend 1 was chosen while friend 2 was not, is that friend 1 can claim Native American Minority Status because he is 1/8th. Is that really a big enough difference to push someone over the average by 6 MCAT points and a better GPA. I am just wondering being selfish here. Is there any way that coming from a disadvantaged background like raised by single parent on disability, that would give someone that kind of minority status or is minority status purely racial? Please don't be upset and vicious in response, just wanting to be a doc like everyone else here.

I'm Caucasian and had the same life as most poor minority immigrants. I was the minority in my community. Oh and I'm a first-gen college grad. Despite this, I can promise you that the URM disadvantage is mostly about skin color. I received little benefit for trekking through the bullcrap of a "disadvantaged" (lol I hate that word by now) life other than being able to write a kick-butt personal statement and convey genuine passion and awareness. Nevertheless my cycle (actually two cycles) was rough, but I got out with what I needed. I have a friend who is Hispanic. But his father is an engineer. He has been interviewed by most schools he applied to and accepted to every medical school he has interviewed at. His stats are actually slightly less than mine. LizzyM of 70 = me. EC's similar as well. Likewise I work with med students. I know quite a few 22-26 mcat scores from URM's at my public med schools that average 31-32.

I know it sucks, but you just gotta suck it up. You can't be bitter.

 

[Redpancreas]

I just received news and am trying to straighten this all out to keep my sanity, and I know this is a sensitive topic so I am not using my everyday SDN, its just too risky. Anyway, I just received news that a good friend was just accepted to our state medical school. He called me 6 weeks ago freaking that his MCAT of 26 was way below the average of 32 for the school. He has a decent GPA ~3.7 from a small out of state public school and one summer of research stint at private medical school in the same state. Student athlete if that counts for anything major. My other good friend applied last year with a 3.89 GPA from a small state school, a 30 MCAT, the best letters of Rec my advisor and his current medical school have ever seen ( no lie thats what they said) and was an intern for two years for the state school only to be turned down. Fortunately he got into our states private medical school but I am just lost on reasons why. I am wondering because my stats are closer to my second friend and the only reason other than a catastrophic interview mess up, I don't see how friend 1 was chosen while friend 2 was not, is that friend 1 can claim Native American Minority Status because he is 1/8th. Is that really a big enough difference to push someone over the average by 6 MCAT points and a better GPA. I am just wondering being selfish here. Is there any way that coming from a disadvantaged background like raised by single parent on disability, that would give someone that kind of minority status or is minority status purely racial? Please don't be upset and vicious in response, just wanting to be a doc like everyone else here.

I read the whole description. I also had a point where I was frustrated and wrote a similar post to yours.Talk about it I guess and get it out of your system because there's nothing you can do about it. Some of it's unfair but a lot of it's being done for a reason. You say you're "just wanting to be a doc like everyone else here" but how will any of what you've written help you out with that goal? ALSO, I think SDN is not a good place to get a scientific sense of the URM disadvantage. Only the outrageous cases that make people mad enough to rant about URM advantages are posted...also there are a lot of people on here who I think lie/exaggerate about URM stats in order to make the system seem more unfair than it is.

 

[Goro]

10% of any med school class is well below the 'floor" the school sets for numbers. URM might have something to do with it, but your friend have something spectacular among his ECs. Depending upon the school, the 26, while below avg, might still be in the 10-90th %ile for the acceptees of that school. If you're more interested, PM me your state and I can give you a better sense of what might be feasible with the numbers.

If your friend had lived on the Pine Ridge nation in Montana at some time, that would make a lot more sense fore the 1/8th heritage. But based upon a comment by the learned gyngyn, I don't think one who suddenly discovers one's heritage automatically rockets to the top of acceptability.

I can't figure out what happened with your other friend, but think that something is missing in his app.

Kids, please don't start a flame war over URM...we're already been through this recently.

I just received news and am trying to straighten this all out to keep my sanity, and I know this is a sensitive topic so I am not using my everyday SDN, its just too risky. Anyway, I just received news that a good friend was just accepted to our state medical school. He called me 6 weeks ago freaking that his MCAT of 26 was way below the average of 32 for the school. He has a decent GPA ~3.7 from a small out of state public school and one summer of research stint at private medical school in the same state. Student athlete if that counts for anything major. My other good friend applied last year with a 3.89 GPA from a small state school, a 30 MCAT, the best letters of Rec my advisor and his current medical school have ever seen ( no lie thats what they said) and was an intern for two years for the state school only to be turned down. Fortunately he got into our states private medical school but I am just lost on reasons why. I am wondering because my stats are closer to my second friend and the only reason other than a catastrophic interview mess up, I don't see how friend 1 was chosen while friend 2 was not, is that friend 1 can claim Native American Minority Status because he is 1/8th. Is that really a big enough difference to push someone over the average by 6 MCAT points and a better GPA. I am just wondering being selfish here. Is there any way that coming from a disadvantaged background like raised by single parent on disability, that would give someone that kind of minority status or is minority status purely racial? Please don't be upset and vicious in response, just wanting to be a doc like everyone else here.

 

[Bulbasaur]

Native Americans can pretty much walk into any medical school. It's not surprising considering what the US has done to them in the past. If you think about the whole URM thing, URMs getting an advantage is justified because whites have historically "invaded" Native Americans and "enslaved" blacks. The least we can do is give them an advantage in med school admissions.

 

[Mmedran]

When I saw the title of this thread, naturally, I had to respond...
I will start by saying that I got into my top choice MD with a 25 MCAT and 3.5 GPA, with URM status.
The reason URMs are given consideration is due to the environments many of us come from. I grew up in the inner city where my classmates had kids by 14, and gangs, drugs, and muggings were a common occurrence. As a kid, I couldn't walk down my street after dark.
My parents never even got the opportunity to finish gradeschool and my brother got his GED in prison. My parents couldn't help me pay for college! So I worked full time and went to school full time. Oh and I paid for my masters on my own too. Many of my classmates only had school to focus on or the MCAT to study for (oh yea, I start medschool in the fall and my parents have no idea what the MCAT is) while I had that AND bills to think about.
In addition to all that, I strived to do great things in my community like starting a scholarship fund for students at my undergrad and integrate a new language minor as well as volunteer and tutor high school kids in chemistry.
The disadvantaged status section is there for people like me (and others) who had to struggle to make the dream come true. And while there are plenty of applicants who give in to the culture of lies and over-embellishment some schools encourage, there are those who genuinely need their story told bc it explains the less competitive GPA or MCAT.

I hope that clears some things up for you. And I wish you all the best of luck!

 

[ninjaman22]

Native Americans can pretty much walk into any medical school. It's not surprising considering what the US has done to them in the past. If you think about the whole URM thing, URMs getting an advantage is justified because whites have historically "invaded" Native Americans and "enslaved" blacks. The least we can do is give them an advantage in med school admissions.

 

[Chipster.]

Alright, glad we hashed things out in a reasonable manner! Now let's just let the thread die without further incidence..

????

 

[cookiemonsters]

A legit Native American is like a legendary pokemon in the game of medical school admissions - when one shows up, a school needs to throw its master ball. URM is in general still a sensitive topic for many in admissions to talk about candidly, but for our school it is a significant advantage regardless of SES factors.

 

[BamaNicole]

Native Americans can pretty much walk into any medical school. It's not surprising considering what the US has done to them in the past. If you think about the whole URM thing, URMs getting an advantage is justified because whites have historically "invaded" Native Americans and "enslaved" blacks. The least we can do is give them an advantage in med school admissions.

That's actually not true. I'm Native and haven't been able to "just walk into any medical school." I still had to work hard, do well on my mcat, do the same ECs. Its not a cake walk because of my heritage and culture.

 

[Questionasker]

There's genetically Native American and culturally Native American.
There are not very many qualified applicants from Native American Communities, and your friend IS a qualified applicant, if not as highly qualified as many ORMs. So if he's officially a member of a recognized tribe and/or culturally Native American, then yes, that could have been influential, particularly if s/he is interested in serving the NA community later (or convincingly said so).
If your friend is 1/8th genetically NA but not at all culturally NA, then IMO, s/he's gaming the system in a way that's dishonest.

Definitely not cultural. Don't get me wrong, really nice straight as an arrow honest hard worker, but no cultural ties and no physical resemblance, but he does have birth right papers of his blood lines.

 

[MangoPlant]

Native Americans can pretty much walk into any medical school. It's not surprising considering what the US has done to them in the past. If you think about the whole URM thing, URMs getting an advantage is justified because whites have historically "invaded" Native Americans and "enslaved" blacks. The least we can do is give them an advantage in med school admissions.

What about Hispanics and Asians?

 

[Questionasker]

I think all of you brought up all the points. I don't think it was any one "thing" that helped him gain acceptance. It is a rural focused school and Native American health has been a hot button topic as of late. The score of 26 MCAT could very well have just been in the lower median of the class average, in addition it is our state school so he does have IS preference. His undergraduate was more rural than friend 2 so maybe they felt a better fit to the program. That said, I don't think all URM are given the considerations they are because of the environments they grew up in. I personally saw this state school fly in female URM for summer programs who all came from a private liberal arts college with a 50k/yr tuition and these families were footing the whole bill. They are recruited annually because they are smart, affluent, female, minorities that the med school is interested in, not because of the many difficult roads they have traveled as URM. At the end of the day I see that this is just me enviously ranting at what I hope to be, and it does nothing for my betterment, so I sign off. Thank you all.

 

[solitarius]

Native Americans can pretty much walk into any medical school. It's not surprising considering what the US has done to them in the past. If you think about the whole URM thing, URMs getting an advantage is justified because whites have historically "invaded" Native Americans and "enslaved" blacks. The least we can do is give them an advantage in med school admissions.

Actually... I disagree with all your points.

To get into a top 10 school as a URM, you still have to have 35+ and 3.7+ GPAs with a solid set of ECs. A URM with a 3.4 GPA and 28 MCAT can probably get into a medical school, but not anywhere. Many of the top-achieving URMs on SDN have gotten rejected/waitlisted at some schools.

I also disagree with the history/white guilt/reparations thing too. Reality is that some (many non-white) people are more comfortable seeing a physician that is of the same ethnic background. Having a racially diverse physician population is in the public interest. Also, reality is that whites are becoming a smaller proportion of the U.S. If all the elite positions were dominated by white people, that would create de-facto apartheid which didn't work too well for that country in Africa.

 

[Chipster.]

Please, not again.

 

[Command]

.

 

[medschoolmyname]

What about Hispanics and Asians?

Asian is not urm, if anything there orm.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

 

[Pacna]

That's actually not true. I'm Native and haven't been able to "just walk into any medical school." I still had to work hard, do well on my mcat, do the same ECs.

Not really.

 

[mcloaf]

At the end of the day I see that this is just me enviously ranting at what I hope to be, and it does nothing for my betterment, so I sign off. Thank you all.

We need more people like you around here.

 

[Lucca]

We need more people like you around here.

Questionasker is truly a gentleman and a scholar. Best of luck @Questionasker

 

[Life Sucks]

In before the check your privilege war begins.

 

[BamaNicole]

Not really.

Oh so I should take your word for it even though I know from experience.

Got it.

 

[Newlanders]

When I saw the title of this thread, naturally, I had to respond...
I will start by saying that I got into my top choice MD with a 25 MCAT and 3.5 GPA, with URM status.
The reason URMs are given consideration is due to the environments many of us come from. I grew up in the inner city where my classmates had kids by 14, and gangs, drugs, and muggings were a common occurrence. As a kid, I couldn't walk down my street after dark.
My parents never even got the opportunity to finish gradeschool and my brother got his GED in prison. My parents couldn't help me pay for college! So I worked full time and went to school full time. Oh and I paid for my masters on my own too. Many of my classmates only had school to focus on or the MCAT to study for (oh yea, I start medschool in the fall and my parents have no idea what the MCAT is) while I had that AND bills to think about.
In addition to all that, I strived to do great things in my community like starting a scholarship fund for students at my undergrad and integrate a new language minor as well as volunteer and tutor high school kids in chemistry.
The disadvantaged status section is there for people like me (and others) who had to struggle to make the dream come true. And while there are plenty of applicants who give in to the culture of lies and over-embellishment some schools encourage, there are those who genuinely need their story told bc it explains the less competitive GPA or MCAT.

I hope that clears some things up for you. And I wish you all the best of luck!

I think you missed the mark.

To the first bold, wouldn't you say this is more of a socioeconomic issue? The topic at hand is about the boost ANY minority gets. Not just the ones like you who had tough lives...but the ones that were well off financially. They get the same boost.

To the second point, what about the URMs who were well off financially and only had school/MCAT to focus on? Why should they get the same boost with lower scores?

 

[453]

That's actually not true. I'm Native and haven't been able to "just walk into any medical school." I still had to work hard, do well on my mcat, do the same ECs. Its not a cake walk because of my heritage and culture.

Not really.

The boost one gets for being African American or Hispanic is massive. So no, by the standards held to most white and Asian applicants (as well as just any applicants which aren't URM), you really don't have to "do well on the MCAT" to get into medical school, as being a minority is worth 8-10 MCAT points.

 

[Mmedran]

I think you missed the mark.

To the first bold, wouldn't you say this is more of a socioeconomic issue? The topic at hand is about the boost ANY minority gets. Not just the ones like you who had tough lives...but the ones that were well off financially. They get the same boost.

To the second point, what about the URMs who were well off financially and only had school/MCAT to focus on? Why should they get the same boost with lower scores?

I think you're missing the bigger picture... Why are minorities given any kind of designation at all?! Bc the socioeconomic states tie very closely with the minority. It's no coincidence that significant percentages of Hispanic, Black, Native American etc are poor and lead difficult lives.
Secondly, perhaps you missed my part about "culture of lies and overembellishment", but there are certainly those who try to play up the minority status like it makes a difference despite coming from money. If you and I can see through a well-off minority applicant, I'm pretty sure the adcoms can too. I highly doubt they get the same "boost" that an applicant who worked his/her butt off gets.
At the end of the day, I think there are people who we think don't "deserve" to be accepted into medical school bc they pad their applications, lie about experiences, and play the pity card, but I don't think that's limited to minorities. Everyone tries to get this coveted "boost" one way or another.

 

[ChemEngMD]

The boost one gets for being African American or Hispanic is massive. So no, by the standards held to most white and Asian applicants (as well as just any applicants which aren't URM), you really don't have to "do well on the MCAT" to get into medical school, as being a minority is worth 8-10 MCAT points.

Bro, it's more like 15 MCAT points.....and 1.0 GPA points...and I haven't even had a chance to tell you about the golden toilets we get to use on interview day or how the school secretly pays for our housing in these giant ivory towers during MS1 and MS2....seriously being URM is the ****...you should consider changing your name to Jose Lopez or Hiawatha Geronimo and getting in on this action.

 

[453]

Bro, it's more like 15 MCAT points.....and 1.0 GPA points...and I haven't even had a chance to tell you about the golden toilets we get to use on interview day or how the school secretly pays for our housing in these giant ivory towers during MS1 and MS2....seriously being URM is the ****...you should consider changing your name to Jose Lopez or Hiawatha Geronimo and getting in on this action.

I understand you're upset since it's frustrating when people point out how you're the benefactor of a racist policy (assuming you're a URM, if not I apologize), but mocking me when I didn't exaggerate anything at all doesn't serve much of a purpose.

Here's a source: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...e-who-applied-with-your-cgpa-and-mcat.888650/

You can clearly see that being an African American is worth around 8-10 MCAT points relative to being white or Asian.

If you don't think an 8-10 MCAT boost is huge and would easily get many Asians and whites into medical school who would not otherwise then you're in denial. It's about a 1.5 standard deviation boost.

 

[ChemEngMD]

I understand you're upset since it's frustrating when people point out how you're the benefactor of a racist policy (assuming you're a URM, if not I apologize), but mocking me when I didn't exaggerate anything at all doesn't serve much of a purpose.

Here's a source: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...e-who-applied-with-your-cgpa-and-mcat.888650/

You can clearly see that being an African American is worth around 8-10 MCAT points relative to being white or Asian.

If you don't think an 8-10 MCAT boost is huge and would easily get many Asians and whites into medical school who would not otherwise then you're in denial.

First of all, you should be apologizing to me regardless of the color of my skin, because you're a fool.

Second, I'm going to give you a break because you're new here, but this topic LITERALLY comes up EVERY, SINGLE WEEK and I have debated it ad nauseam and have shown how the "advantage" is a misnomer for several reasons:

1) Overall, URM (especially African-American) students still have the lowest acceptance rate of any of the ethnicities applying to medical school (AAs run about 38% overall acceptance rates, while Whites run about 45%)

2) In a given year, there are only 278 URM applicants applying with a LizzyM score of 69+, that's only 3.94% of the applicant pool compared to 14.75% of the White applicant pool (~4000 applicants) and 18.43% of the Asian applicant pool (~1800 applicants). ADCOMs have to dip further into the URM applicant pool in order to admit URMs who are still viable academically (ADCOMs on these boards have said that a 3.0 and a 26 are a minimum standard to be able to succeed in medical school academically) and still in the top ~40% of their particular ethnicity. This inherently leads to lower averages because there simply aren't that many of us. (Unless you simply don't approve of there being more than ~300 URMs admitted to medical school each year, then you can simply stop reading here.)

3) There are 3 HBCU schools and 4 schools in Puerto Rico that SKEW that data to make it seem that there are all of these lower statistic URMs running into top schools. That's simply not the case. These schools have particular missions that cater towards minority communities, and URMs are the most likely to fit that mission, thus they make exceptions in regards to grades and standardized test scores.

4) Medical school is NOT A REWARD for having the best GPA and MCAT. This is a service profession, meant for serving a diverse country with a diverse set of problems. There have been many articles published on the increased efficacy of care for minority patients being treated by minority physicians. When a very large percent of the underserved people in this country are Black, Hispanic, and Native American - we have to admit more of these students into medical school so they can serve their communities.

There will always be some kid who is 1/8 Native American who doesn't connect directly to the tribe or some 1/2 Hispanic kid who has an Anglo surname and doesn't really relate to the culture who manage to squeak into medical school due to some "URM status", but that doesn't mean you should eliminate the policy when the vast majority of us are interested in helping out our communities.

I don't anticipate you changing your mind on this or seeing the rationale behind it. I expect you to cry and scream racism for the next 20 pages of this thread and thus I will not debate you or any other person who refuses to see beyond 2 feet in front of them on here, instead I will make snide and mocking comments to you as a way to show you how much of a fool you are.

 

[sourdoughllama]

.

 

[BlackBox]

How about this:

When either side of this debate finishes with medical school, lobby to either keep the status quo or change the admissions policies.

This debate has merit on both sides, but is it really worth having it on a monthly basis? By completely anonymous people? In a forum with no 'weight?'

Surly there are better uses of your (our) time.

 

[453]

First of all, you should be apologizing to me regardless of the color of my skin, because you're a fool.

I'll ignore the personal attacks, but you shouldn't be so emotionally invested in this if you want a real discussion. If you don't want a real discussion then you should probably shouldn't post in this thread.

Second, I'm going to give you a break because you're new here, but this topic LITERALLY comes up EVERY, SINGLE WEEK and I have debated it ad nauseam and have shown how the "advantage" is a misnomer for several reasons:

1) Overall, URM (especially African-American) students still have the lowest acceptance rate of any of the ethnicities applying to medical school (AAs run about 38% overall acceptance rates, while Whites run about 45%)

2) In a given year, there are only 278 URM applicants applying with a LizzyM score of 69+, that's only 3.94% of the applicant pool compared to 14.75% of the White applicant pool (~4000 applicants) and 18.43% of the Asian applicant pool (~1800 applicants). ADCOMs have to dip further into the URM applicant pool in order to admit URMs who are still viable academically (ADCOMs on these boards have said that a 3.0 and a 26 are a minimum standard to be able to succeed in medical school academically) and still in the top ~40% of their particular ethnicity. This inherently leads to lower averages because there simply aren't that many of us. (Unless you simply don't approve of there being more than ~300 URMs admitted to medical school each year, then you can simply stop reading here.)

You call me a fool, but then your second point is just saying I'm completely correct? Since there are fewer qualified minorities, they get a huge boost ("ADCOMs have to dip further into the URM applicant pool"). I'm just kind of in shock you called me a fool but then your second point is I'm completely right, but hey it's the internet.

As for your bolded part, if there are less than 300 qualified URM's (using race blind admissions), then there should be less than 300 URM's in medical school. I've been taught my whole life to treat people equally regardless of race and that's what I think should be done here.

3) There are 3 HBCU schools and 4 schools in Puerto Rico that SKEW that data to make it seem that there are all of these lower statistic URMs running into top schools. That's simply not the case. These schools have particular missions that cater towards minority communities, and URMs are the most likely to fit that mission, thus they make exceptions in regards to grades and standardized test scores.

This ignores the fact that there is a huge URM boost at publicly funded institutions.

4) Medical school is NOT A REWARD for having the best GPA and MCAT. This is a service profession, meant for serving a diverse country with a diverse set of problems. There have been many articles published on the increased efficacy of care for minority patients being treated by minority physicians. When a very large percent of the underserved people in this country are Black, Hispanic, and Native American - we have to admit more of these students into medical school so they can serve their communities.

I'm fine with acknowledging there are some benefits to racial diversity. It has absolutely nothing to do with my original statement though that being African American is worth 8-10 MCAT points relative to being white or Asian, the point which you got so upset about (then called me a fool before immediately telling me I'm right).

 

[No Limits]

A Caucasian student has 3.6 and 30 MCAT score

A URM student has a 3.5 and 28 MCAT Score.

(Making these numbers up btw)



If the URM student gets accepted it seems like a lot of people on here attribute this because of the URM’s skin color. I’m not saying that doesn’t play in role in some instances but what if the Caucasian student also found out that another Caucasian student got in as well with identical stats as the URM? How will some of you interpret that? I live in a state with a lot of medical schools and had been fortunate to meet a lot of medical students from different schools. I can say with certainty that in my state, not all Caucasian students have a 30 or higher on the MCAT (and that’s okay) and yet they got accepted and are doing great in school. All I’m saying is there is an assortment of independent factors that are involved when one student is accepted and another is not. You can say that being a URM is advantage and gives 8-10 points but I’m very sure URM’s at top schools don’t need it because they are every bit of qualified to be there as the rest their classmates.

 

[cookiemonsters]

If yall are so passionate about this topic then write something up about it with citeable facts and get it published. You're not convincing anybody posting on SDN.

 

[ChemEngMD]

I'll ignore the personal attacks, but you shouldn't be so emotionally invested in this if you want a real discussion. If you don't want a real discussion then you should probably shouldn't post in this thread.

Second, I'm going to give you a break because you're new here, but this topic LITERALLY comes up EVERY, SINGLE WEEK and I have debated it ad nauseam and have shown how the "advantage" is a misnomer for several reasons:



You call me a fool, but then your second point is just saying I'm completely correct? Since there are fewer qualified minorities, they get a huge boost ("ADCOMs have to dip further into the URM applicant pool"). I'm just kind of in shock you called me a fool but then your second point is I'm completely right, but hey it's the internet.

As for your bolded part, if there are less than 300 qualified URM's (using race blind admissions), then there should be less than 300 URM's in medical school. I've been taught my whole life to treat people equally regardless of race and that's what I think should be done here.



This ignores the fact that there is a huge URM boost at publicly funded institutions.



I'm fine with acknowledging there are some benefits to racial diversity. It has absolutely nothing to do with my original statement though that being African American is worth 8-10 MCAT points relative to being white or Asian, the point which you got so upset about (then called me a fool before immediately telling me I'm right).

Perhaps I was simply stating your foolishness because you are completely missing the point of getting URMs into medical school.

It is to benefit underserved populations. Period.

URMs are far more likely to go work in URM communities. Medical schools have a duty to this country to admit students who will go into these communities and provide healthcare to the people who live there. The stats published by the AAMC show that URMs are twice as likely to do this as non-URMs. Asians have the lowest rates of all for going to work in underserved communities.

We don't need more sub-specialists in the suburbs, we need physicians in the trenches fixing this country and this is the best way to do it. You can do race-blind admissions (don't think those exist - half of my ECs would give away the fact I was Latino) but it won't be addressing the issue of minority health in this country.

And once again: GPA + MCAT =/= Most Qualified

If yall are so passionate about this topic then write something up about it with citeable facts and get it published. You're not convincing anybody posting on SDN.

We both know that stats have been brought into these threads a thousand times. People parse the data in order to fit their narrative. The last giant URM thread (that went 15 pages) had tons of data from the AAMC and many published journal articles, but the people who are anti URM status stuck to their guns regardless of the data published.

 

[sourdoughllama]

A Caucasian student has 3.6 and 30 MCAT score

A URM student has a 3.5 and 28 MCAT Score.

(Making these numbers up btw)



If the URM student gets accepted it seems like a lot of people on here attribute this because of the URM’s skin color. I’m not saying that doesn’t play in role in some instances but what if the Caucasian student also found out that another Caucasian student got in as well with identical stats as the URM? How will some of you interpret that? I live in a state with a lot of medical schools and had been fortunate to meet a lot of medical students from different schools. I can say with certainty that in my state, not all Caucasian students have a 30 or higher on the MCAT (and that’s okay) and yet they got accepted and are doing great in school. All I’m saying is there is an assortment of independent factors that are involved when one student is accepted and another is not. You can say that being a URM is advantage and gives 8-10 points but I’m very sure URM’s at top schools don’t need it because they are every bit of qualified to be there as the rest their classmates.

That's definitely true. URM boost helps the underperforming but undermines the high performing students. However, if there wasn't affirmative action and all students were held to the same standard, then this self-created prejudice wouldn't exist. A black student at Harvard would be academically equivalent to all his white and asian counterparts. But that isn't always the case with the current system.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

Buff mages, nerf warlocks. We're talking about raid spots, people.

 

[sourdoughllama]

Perhaps I was simply stating your foolishness because you are completely missing the point of getting URMs into medical school.

It is to benefit underserved populations. Period.

URMs are far more likely to go work in URM communities. Medical schools have a duty to this country to admit students who will go into these communities and provide healthcare to the people who live there. The stats published by the AAMC show that URMs are twice as likely to do this as non-URMs. Asians have the lowest rates of all for going to work in underserved communities.

We don't need more sub-specialists in the suburbs, we need physicians in the trenches fixing this country and this is the best way to do it. You can do race-blind admissions (don't think those exist - half of my ECs would give away the fact I was Latino) but it won't be addressing the issue of minority health in this country.

And once again: GPA + MCAT =/= Most Qualified

1- No, he didn't say anything in regards to the point of URMs getting into school. He simply stated there is a boost. You need to check your facts, dude.

2- Yes, URMs getting into schools to serve the underserved isn't really an issue and most on here seem to agree.

3- Maybe Asians are least likely to work for the underserved is because the poor Asian kids get the shortest end of the stick. They get the ORM status but have circumstances equal to what URMs are usually given. So no, the rich Asian kids aren't gonna go work with the underserved because that's not their community. But if you start admitting those poor kids, that might change. Did you ever think that URMs might work with the underserved because that's where their home is? Whites and Asians who are poor get **** on for admissions so there isn't even a chance to go back and work with their poor communities to begin with. I know plenty of URM docs who come from affluent areas who went back to those areas.

4- We don't need sub-specialists and race-blind admissions don't address the issue of minority health. Yeah. Except he only said "URM get a boost." The end.

 

[No Limits]

That's definitely true. URM boost helps the underperforming but undermines the high performing students. However, if there wasn't affirmative action and all students were held to the same standard, then this self-created prejudice wouldn't exist. A black student at Harvard would be academically equivalent to all his white and asian counterparts. But that isn't always the case with the current system.

I completely understand but I don't think is "affirmative action" exactly. Like @ChemEngMD said I think it's to recruit more students likely to serve in underserve areas. Whether they do or not is another discussion. However, the very few students they take with lower stats probably are more likely to serve those underserved areas in the adcoms eyes. Perhaps.. perhaps not. But again, what about the few Caucasians who get in with lower than average stats before the student with the above average stats? Can't be their skin color, seeing how it's the same. We are going to have to assume the Caucasian student with lower stats is a better interviewer, had better EC's, research, whatever. I just think we should show the same curtsey to URM's as well before just pull out race card.

Like you said, "URM boost helps the underperforming but undermines the high performing students." Sometimes discussions here lead to the belief the minority students at medical schools are all underperforming students who got in because of their skin color. We have some top performing minorities on this forum too and some are mods with 40's on the MCAT LOL. You can imagine how frustrating it must feel when people post ignorant comments like they skated by to medical school with a 3.0 and 22 mcat. Not saying you said that but it seems like a lot of people believe that.

 

[BlackBox]

1- No, he didn't say anything in regards to the point of URMs getting into school. He simply stated there is a boost. You need to check your facts, dude.

2- Yes, URMs getting into schools to serve the underserved isn't really an issue and most on here seem to agree.

3- Maybe Asians are least likely to work for the underserved is because the poor Asian kids get the shortest end of the stick. They get the ORM status but have circumstances equal to what URMs are usually given. So no, the rich Asian kids aren't gonna go work with the underserved because that's not their community. But if you start admitting those poor kids, that might change. Did you ever think that URMs might work with the underserved because that's where their home is? Whites and Asians who are poor get **** on for admissions so there isn't even a chance to go back and work with their poor communities to begin with. I know plenty of URM docs who come from affluent areas who went back to those areas.

4- We don't need sub-specialists and race-blind admissions don't address the issue of minority health. Yeah. Except he only said "URM get a boost." The end.

I would have ended with "Auf Wiedersehen." Just a personal preference.

 

[plumazul]

A Caucasian student has 3.6 and 30 MCAT score

A URM student has a 3.5 and 28 MCAT Score.

(Making these numbers up btw)



If the URM student gets accepted it seems like a lot of people on here attribute this because of the URM’s skin color. I’m not saying that doesn’t play in role in some instances but what if the Caucasian student also found out that another Caucasian student got in as well with identical stats as the URM? How will some of you interpret that? I live in a state with a lot of medical schools and had been fortunate to meet a lot of medical students from different schools. I can say with certainty that in my state, not all Caucasian students have a 30 or higher on the MCAT (and that’s okay) and yet they got accepted and are doing great in school. All I’m saying is there is an assortment of independent factors that are involved when one student is accepted and another is not. You can say that being a URM is advantage and gives 8-10 points but I’m very sure URM’s at top schools don’t need it because they are every bit of qualified to be there as the rest their classmates.

Actually, the vast majority of low stat acceptances to (non-hbms or Puerto Rican schools) MD schools in the United States are non-URM. In fact, the vast majority of acceptances in any category are non-URM. There are just too few of them to go around.

 

[sourdoughllama]

I completely understand but I don't think is "affirmative action" exactly. Like @ChemEngMD said I think it's to recruit more students likely to serve in underserve areas. Whether they do or not is another discussion. However, the very few students they take with lower stats probably are more likely to serve those underserved areas in the adcoms eyes. Perhaps.. perhaps not. But again, what about the few Caucasians who get in with lower than average stats before the student with the above average stats? Can't be their skin color, seeing how it's the same. We are going to have to assume the Caucasian student with lower stats is a better interviewer, had better EC's, research, whatever. I just think we should show the same curtsey to URM's as well before just pull out race card.

Like you said, "URM boost helps the underperforming but undermines the high performing students." Sometimes discussions here lead to the belief the minority students at medical schools are all underperforming students who got in because of their skin color. We have some top performing minorities on this forum too and some are mods with 40's on the MCAT LOL. You can imagine how frustrating it must feel when people post ignorant comments like they skated by to medical school with a 3.0 and 22 mcat. Not saying you said that but it seems like a lot of people believe that.

For sure, I'm against race-dependent admissions (or affirmative action), but I do see the importance of having URM docs for people who aren't comfortable with an Asian or White doc. So in the end if I was in admissions, I would still probably admit under performing URMs for the sake of that. I guess the drawback here is that giving special treatment to any group will create a backlash. Asians are usually given the honor of high performing minorities. But with that comes the higher expectations and highly offensive stereotypes, and casual racism. By casual racism, I mean that making fun of Asians is okay by today's standards. It's all give and take. If you want anything out of the norm, you gotta man up and take criticism.

 

[MangoPlant]

1) Overall, URM (especially African-American) students still have the lowest acceptance rate of any of the ethnicities applying to medical school (AAs run about 38% overall acceptance rates, while Whites run about 45%)

I don't know why people keep citing this in literally every URM thread. Take a look at this chart: https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/2012factstable25-2.pdf

Compared to Asians and Whites, a MUCH larger fraction of the African Americans applying have MCAT scores of < 23. When you are comparing OVERALL acceptance rates you are comparing a population that has a large fraction of applicants with less than 23 MCAT (African Americans), to a population that does not have nearly as large of a fraction with extremely low stats (Asians). Given this, of course overall African Americans are going to have to have a lower acceptance rate because they have a much larger fraction of the population with unacceptable stats.

About 28% of African American applicants have MCAT scores of < 23.

Source: https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/2012factstable25-2.pdf

 

[XmedBarney]

Where would the internet be without a rehash of the same discussions over and over and over?