Advice- Failed. What happens now?

[Folet50]

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I'm on HPSP and I am fairly certain I failed (pretty sure on this). I don't plan to continue and repeat the year if that is the case.

So what happens now? I tried calling the HPSP people because I had a feeling this was it and wanted to know what would happen but with the blizzard their offices were closed all week. So I remembered this place had a military forum to ask things on.

I've wanted to be in the armed forces since like forever and thought this would be the best way to serve- guess not, lol (not to make light of it but...).

Does anyone know what happens? I didn't do any military rotations yet so I don't know any military physicians or anything.

I also assume my options are probably limited.

 

[Aegis]

you failed what? Step one? A rotation? I can give you a couple of generalities. If you failed a year of med school you can redo the year, they just won't pay for it and your scholarship will resume when you start up again. If you failed step one I imagine a similar thing would happen. If your really really done and decide to drop out you still owe the government the amount of time they paid for, and you CAN NOT buy your way out. They will basically utilize you like a 2DLT with no specific training, you may find yourself in charge of some finance office for a year or two, unless of course you have some other degree or skill they can use. But dude, hang in there. We all "fail" at some point, and your gonna keep getting knocked down. Its about getting back up again and saying please sir may I have another.

 

[DocArmy]

you failed what? Step one? A rotation? I can give you a couple of generalities. If you failed a year of med school you can redo the year, they just won't pay for it and your scholarship will resume when you start up again. If you failed step one I imagine a similar thing would happen. If your really really done and decide to drop out you still owe the government the amount of time they paid for, and you CAN NOT buy your way out. They will basically utilize you like a 2DLT with no specific training, you may find yourself in charge of some finance office for a year or two, unless of course you have some other degree or skill they can use. But dude, hang in there. We all "fail" at some point, and your gonna keep getting knocked down. Its about getting back up again and saying please sir may I have another.

+1

Look at your options. You should still be able to finish your degree. Good luck and hang tough.

 

[jabreal00]

A little bit more specifics will be helpful. But the poster above gave pretty good advise based on the vagueness of your post. ---------------- Now playing: Anthony Marinelli - Love Potion #9 via FoxyTunes

 

[Folet50]

Year 2. I know the HPSP won't pay to repeat the year and I know I can go on a leave or something (I checked their site for this) but I am interested in my options if I decide not to do this.

There's some other factors involved.

Since I'm in the medical services corp/branch/whatever would they be assigning me to something like hospital administration? Or be a tech or something?

I'm just wondering what happens if I decide not to repeat if I did fail. What would happen then? I didn't get to go to the officer training over the summer yet, so I know/remember next to nothing.

Basically I'm like a civilian with a military ID card, a few uniforms, and an O-1 rank. I know the options are limited. If I can get into something medical related I'd try and do that and maybe in 4 to 6 years try and go to PA school or something. I know I'm probably at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to desirability for jobs since I've "proven" I'm a failure. I know that's basically the cold reality of the military. Fail something and ya got a hard time proving you're competent at something completely unrelated, I guess.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Year 2. I know the HPSP won't pay to repeat the year and I know I can go on a leave or something (I checked their site for this) but I am interested in my options if I decide not to do this.

There's some other factors involved.

Since I'm in the medical services corp/branch/whatever would they be assigning me to something like hospital administration? Or be a tech or something?

I'm just wondering what happens if I decide not to repeat if I did fail. What would happen then? I didn't get to go to the officer training over the summer yet, so I know/remember next to nothing.

Basically I'm like a civilian with a military ID card, a few uniforms, and an O-1 rank. I know the options are limited. If I can get into something medical related I'd try and do that and maybe in 4 to 6 years try and go to PA school or something. I know I'm probably at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to desirability for jobs since I've "proven" I'm a failure. I know that's basically the cold reality of the military. Fail something and ya got a hard time proving you're competent at something completely unrelated, I guess.

Slow down. If you leave school, you likely can't go back. If you aren't opposed to a health care career (ie, you would consider being a PA), you need to make sure you can't get through school. The first 2 years of med school are completely different than the remainder of your career.

If you fail, you need to sit down with the dean and discuss the likelihood that you will get through next year. You made it through MS1, so you probably can make it through MS2.

This is not a decision to make with the military in mind. The military part will work itself out.

 

[Folet50]

Slow down. If you leave school, you likely can't go back. If you aren't opposed to a health care career (ie, you would consider being a PA), you need to make sure you can't get through school. The first 2 years of med school are completely different than the remainder of your career.

If you fail, you need to sit down with the dean and discuss the likelihood that you will get through next year. You made it through MS1, so you probably can make it through MS2.

This is not a decision to make with the military in mind. The military part will work itself out.

I know that if I leave I wouldn't be able to go back. I've known a few who've done that (not military though).

But I just want to know what my options are if I do decide to leave school. What the military would do- where I would likely be assigned and what job.

I don't want to skip out on service or anything- hell, I want(ed) to make it a 20 year career and still do. But being a military doctor may not be how I'm going to go about it.

So I just want to know what the options are if I do decide to not repeat. That's really what I'm asking; what happens?

Once I inform them, will I go to active duty immediately or a couple of months? Do I go to officer training, stuff like that.

 

[BOHICA-FIGMO]

Year 2. I know the HPSP won't pay to repeat the year and I know I can go on a leave or something (I checked their site for this) but I am interested in my options if I decide not to do this.

There's some other factors involved.

Since I'm in the medical services corp/branch/whatever would they be assigning me to something like hospital administration? Or be a tech or something?

I'm just wondering what happens if I decide not to repeat if I did fail. What would happen then? I didn't get to go to the officer training over the summer yet, so I know/remember next to nothing.

Basically I'm like a civilian with a military ID card, a few uniforms, and an O-1 rank. I know the options are limited. If I can get into something medical related I'd try and do that and maybe in 4 to 6 years try and go to PA school or something. I know I'm probably at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to desirability for jobs since I've "proven" I'm a failure. I know that's basically the cold reality of the military. Fail something and ya got a hard time proving you're competent at something completely unrelated, I guess.

I know you are discouraged at this point. I'm sorry for you. I know you don't want to hear it, but many others have walked in your shoes and gone on to have fine careers. Sure, at first you may have to "settle" for IM or FM rather than something else, but there are a million ways to eventually get where you want.

I would also think long and hard before quitting. Once you drop out, you will NEVER be able to go back to medical school in the U.S. again...EVER. If you still have ANY interest in medicine (which it sounds like you do with all the talk of PA school), I would recommend toughing it out, taking the mulligan, and press on. If you do well in your 3rd year clerkships, do well on Step 2, excel in internship, and excel in your GMO (if Navy/USAF), you can minimize much of the damage. My gut thinks that you will be kicking yourself in a few years if you drop out all together.

As for what the military will do with you, probably some hospital admin work, but I don't know for sure. Again I think it would be hard to come to work for/with a bunch of doctors everyday knowing that I had thrown in the towel.

That's just my 0.02. Good luck and stay strong !

 

[IgD]

I agree with the other posters. Don't go down without a fight. Why don't you tell us what is going on more specifically? Maybe it will be therapeutic for you.

 

[Folet50]

I already had to repeat year 1 due to some personal situations which affected academics. I did fairly well (average, about in the middle with class rank last I checked) but year 2 has been a struggle with scores around the mid 70s average or so.

The school would probably let me repeat again but I honestly can't see doing it again.

It's a little embarrassing to talk about that even on the interwebs, but I think that might give a better view of my current predicament. If I do have to repeat then it will take 6 years to finish a 4 year degree... plus barely passing the other year 2 courses with mid 70s is discouraging because I don't want to go out and not know what I'm doing.

There comes a point- like now- where I have to ask if going the full doctor route was really the right decision. I'm thinking I would try and get into something medical related and then investigate the possibility of PA school.

Either that or pull a Drew on Scrubs, disappear for a decade, and then re-enter medical school after living in the Yukon. 😉

 

[IgD]

I already had to repeat year 1 due to some personal situations which affected academics. I did fairly well (average, about in the middle with class rank last I checked) but year 2 has been a struggle with scores around the mid 70s average or so.

I went to a traditional med school with 2 years academics followed by 2 years of clinical work. 3rd and 4th year were so much better. 1st and 2nd year were a matter of jumping through hoops to get to a later stage in my opinion.

 

[notdeadyet]

Check in with the HPSP offices. There's no harm in contacting them, as there's nothing you can tell them that they won't soon find out.

If I were in your shoes I'd want to know what they'd do if I dropped out.
1) Payback in sweat. What job? How many years?
2) Payback in money. How much would I owe? What sort of payment plan?

There have been cases of folks being stuck with a six figure bill at high interest and immediate payment. Figuring out if you'll be paying back what you owe via 1 or 2 may affect your decision.

Only you can figure out the right call. Ordinarily, advising folks to tough it out is pretty standard. But if you're already failed one year and you're about to fail another, this might be a message that either medicine isn't the right career for you or your heart isn't in it.

I agree that MS3 and MS4 is a lot better than MS1 and MS2, but it's not devoid of studying. You still have a series of shelves to pass and a Step 2 to take.

Your call. If you're smart enough to get in to med school, odds are you're smart enough to graduate, if you're willing to put in the work and possibly repeat years and classes here and there. Whether or not you're willing to do so is really your decision, no one elses.

Let us know what the HPSP folks tell you and where you land on your decision. Best of luck.

 

[Folet50]

I went to a traditional med school with 2 years academics followed by 2 years of clinical work. 3rd and 4th year were so much better. 1st and 2nd year were a matter of jumping through hoops to get to a later stage in my opinion.

Yeah, that's how mine is, too. But if I did fail it'll take me 2 extra years to graduate. Repeating year 1 and 2 is uh... not good, IMO.

 

[Folet50]

Check in with the HPSP offices. There's no harm in contacting them, as there's nothing you can tell them that they won't soon find out.

If I were in your shoes I'd want to know what they'd do if I dropped out.
1) Payback in sweat. What job? How many years?
2) Payback in money. How much would I owe? What sort of payment plan?

There have been cases of folks being stuck with a six figure bill at high interest and immediate payment. Figuring out if you'll be paying back what you owe via 1 or 2 may affect your decision.

Only you can figure out the right call. Ordinarily, advising folks to tough it out is pretty standard. But if you're already failed one year and you're about to fail another, this might be a message that either medicine isn't the right career for you or your heart isn't in it.

I agree that MS3 and MS4 is a lot better than MS1 and MS2, but it's not devoid of studying. You still have a series of shelves to pass and a Step 2 to take.

Your call. If you're smart enough to get in to med school, odds are you're smart enough to graduate, if you're willing to put in the work and possibly repeat years and classes here and there. Whether or not you're willing to do so is really your decision, no one elses.

Let us know what the HPSP folks tell you and where you land on your decision. Best of luck.

Thanks. I certainly hope I'm not saddled with a bill because I went out of state which makes school much more expensive. That's one reason I am hesitant to seek a repeat again. I would rather "pay it back" with service... I mean I want to go into the military... so I don't see why they wouldn't let me do it that way... but it is the military and they sometimes don't seem to really care sometimes.

And I don't think my heart is in it. When I realized I might have failed I didn't go out and ball my eyes out in tears. I was kind of "Huh... that sucks" with an obligatory dropping of the shoulders. But I didn't go run off into a corner and cry. Which might say something.

I like medicine but I don't think medical school as a full fledged doctor is/was the right choice. And truthfully I think I was too inexperienced to make the right decision- I should have gone and done some active duty for 3 to 4 years in medical services or something and then come back and seen if I really wanted to do it.

Since its President's Day the HPSP offices will probably be closed but maybe with the blizzards taking them out of office all last week they'll be there to play work catch up.

 

[DocArmy]

Hate to point this out, but isn't 70 passing? If you are middle of the pack rank wise and you're passing your classes, then just keep on trucking.

Did you fail a course or something that would REQUIRE you to repeat, or are you just freaking out because you're a C student?

Just keep swingin, land enough punches to stay in the fight and get through. Med school sucks. That's why everyone moves on to residency. It's just a step.

 

[Folet50]

Hate to point this out, but isn't 70 passing? If you are middle of the pack rank wise and you're passing your classes, then just keep on trucking.

Did you fail a course or something that would REQUIRE you to repeat, or are you just freaking out because you're a C student?

Just keep swingin, land enough punches to stay in the fight and get through. Med school sucks. That's why everyone moves on to residency. It's just a step.

No, it's not panicking. It's a failure which would require a repeat. To clear up what I meant with middle of the pack- I did well in other courses my first year which raised my class ranking... not so much this year. The way the school I am going to works you could have 100s in everything but if you fail certain things or X number of courses you have to repeat the year.

But specifics aside the point is if I failed this course which I am fairly certain I did then it would trigger an automatic "year failure" requiring repeat of the entire year.

 

[mberes]

This may be getting into specifics, but how do you not know if you failed the course? You are obviously talking about a fall course, so shouldn't grades have come out already? Just curious.

A word of advice; don't make a decision after recently hearing the news. Just likes athletes and coaches who wait a month or 2 after the season to make their decision on retirement, if you just found out you failed then I would give it a week or 2 and see how you feel.

I do agree with you though. It seems as though you are not totally committed to being a physician, and, if that's the cause, I would imagine you would struggle through MSIII and MSIV, and then residency because your heart isn't completely in it.

Tough decision to make.

 

[IlDestriero]

No, it's not panicking. It's a failure which would require a repeat. To clear up what I meant with middle of the pack- I did well in other courses my first year which raised my class ranking... not so much this year. The way the school I am going to works you could have 100s in everything but if you fail certain things or X number of courses you have to repeat the year.

But specifics aside the point is if I failed this course which I am fairly certain I did then it would trigger an automatic "year failure" requiring repeat of the entire year.

While it would be nice to keep on going, you really need to ask yourself if you will be able to pass the usmle. If the answer is almost certainly not, than a career in medicine as a practicing physician is out. You could try to continue with the plan to change careers into business, hosp admin, etc.
One of my old intern buddies took 5 years to finish at the worst med school in the US. He was a nice guy, but he had to take step 1 twice and failed step 2 twice before his utter lack of common sense and horrible clinical judgement required the Navy to pull him out. They put him to work as an msc guy for his payback.
You don't want to be that guy. His poor judgement cost lives and hurt people, really.
He was never going to be able to be a physician, and I cannot understand how he could have graduated, considering how poorly he performed during his internship prior to his removal.

 

[Folet50]

While it would be nice to keep on going, you really need to ask yourself if you will be able to pass the usmle. If the answer is almost certainly not, than a career in medicine as a practicing physician is out. You could try to continue with the plan to change careers into business, hosp admin, etc.
One of my old intern buddies took 5 years to finish at the worst med school in the US. He was a nice guy, but he had to take step 1 twice and failed step 2 twice before his utter lack of common sense and horrible clinical judgement required the Navy to pull him out. They put him to work as an msc guy for his payback.
You don't want to be that guy. His poor judgement cost lives and hurt people, really.
He was never going to be able to be a physician, and I cannot understand how he could have graduated, considering how poorly he performed during his internship prior to his removal.

That is indeed one of my concerns; hurting people. And that's why I am hesitant to consider a repeat again. I have been concerned with my level of skills this year.

I can take directions and follow directions quite well so maybe some sort of medical career where I'm doing instead of telling would be better.

I like to think of myself as realistic and fairly honest with myself and won't sit and bull**** after this. I do enjoy certain aspects of medicine and would like to stay in the field in some capacity.

But I am guessing medical service, some sort of hospital administration job, is probably what I'm going to end up with. Nothing galmorous, I guess, but the last thing I want to do is like you said with your buddy is hurting people through incompetency.

One of my concerns is paying back the loans since I went out of state instead of being allowed to serve it off. I was also ROTC and I owe years there so I would assume they'd let me serve... plus I want to serve to pay it back. I mean... it doesn't seem like it'd make a lot of sense for them to not let me, but it is the military. 😉 I checked my respective service's website and while there was little information regarding this it looks like the separation/dis-enrollment from HPSP takes something like 2 months.

 

[IgD]

I would recommend you go talk to someone at your school. Lay it out on the table and get some objective advice.

 

[Perrotfish]

One thing that I don't think is clear from the above posts: if you drop out you cannot choose to buy your way out if they want you the serve out your time, but neither can you choose to serve out your time if they decide they want their money back. We had one poster in the past who was surprised to find out that, not only did they want all of their money back (with interest) but that they wanted it, paid in full, IN ONE MONTH. Ever try to get a bank to loan you 100K on one month's notice, while you're unemployed with no prospects, to service another debt? When she told them she couldn't pay they assessed a 20K late fee and were threatenng to tack on even more. With the bad economy driving up recruiting numbers why wouldn't they want their money back? Also keep in mind you're not giving them a lot of good reasons for sympathy. You're not getting kicked out of school, you're walking away from an opportunity to finish. Why would they want to help you (or serve with you) if you quit on them?

As for your concerns about not being good enough, I will say this: the military desperately needs doctors. If you quit, there will not be someone more competent to fill your slot, like in the civilian world, that slot will just be empty. Even with a couple of failures, are you really worse than the medic/nurse who will take your place? I don't think you're at the point where you can say that yet: you untimately passed MS1 and from the sound of it you very nearly passed MS2. I think that there's a very good chance that you can pass the USMLE and MS3, use your 4th year electives to make up any knowledge youre deficient in, and go on to be a competent physician and to fill the hole that the military desperately needs you to fill.

Anyway that's my (MS2) advice, take it for what it's worth.

 

[Perrotfish]

....

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Stick it out at least until 3rd year. 1st and 2nd year aren't so closely related to actually being what a doctor does. Repeat this year and see how third year goes. If you're failing all your clerkships, that would be the time to bail.

So who pays tuition when you fail? Does HPSP pick that up? Or are you on your own for the extra years?

 

[michaelrack]

Don't know anything about the military, but PA school is not a realistic option for someone who fails out of med school- most PA schools will not take someone who has failed out of med school. Good luck

 

[notdeadyet]

As for your concerns about not being good enough, I will say this: the military desperately needs doctors. If you quit, there will not be someone more competent to fill your slot, like in the civilian world, that slot will just be empty.

I strongly disagree with the notion that bad doctors are better than no doctors. Bad doctors mean the slot is filled, and the military has no incentive to fill it. They may differentiate between an open req and a warm body, but not between someone who's clinically dangerous vs. someone who's an excellent physician.

I'd personally much rather have an open slot the military needs to fill with better recruiting and/or retention than have someone who's a poor doctor serve. We all know docs out there who are dangerous. I wouldn't will them on anyone, let alone servicemen/women.

I think that there's a very good chance that you can pass the USMLE and MS3, use your 4th year electives to make up any knowledge youre deficient in, and go on to be a competent physician and to fill the hole that the military desperately needs you to fill.

Folks make too big a distinction here. If you struggled with the material in MS1 and MS2, you will likely struggle with the material in MS3. Probably moreso, because you have much less time to master it. Making up for deficiencies in third year is going to be very, very challenging.

If the OP was gung ho about it, I'd tell him give it a shot. If he's had multiple failures and his heart is just not in it, that doesn't make for great chances in third year.

He needs to hear what the military says about how he pays them back (sweat or cash) and he needs to do some navel gazing and ask himself if he really wants to be a doctor. If the answer to the latter is "no", continuing would be foolish.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Folks make too big a distinction here. If you struggled with the material in MS1 and MS2, you will likely struggle with the material in MS3. Probably moreso, because you have much less time to master it. Making up for deficiencies in third year is going to be very, very challenging.

You really have no idea if that is a true statement. This has been studied (and if you were on my service, guess what I'd tell you to do). The best data on this subject comes from MCAT scores. MCATs predict performance in MS1 and MS2 years fairly well, MS3 and MS4 fairly poorly and residency not at all. Similar studies on MS2 performance have been all over the map (likely due to methodologic issues and curricular differences).

Further, there are no tests in MS3 that require a student to repeat a year. If he/she fails a shelf exam, at most, that means repeating a rotation during MS4.

Now, for the broader question about whether this person can be a "good" doctor...who exactly do you think you are? If the Dean of the medical school is willing to let him continue, you would overrule that based on what? Book knowledge is so much less important than attention to detail and attitude in being a good doctor. People self-select into fields they are good at. Its only a medical student who thinks that the score on the pathology final has anything to do with my ability to manage a patient in liver failure 15 years later.

All this being said, OP, the military is very unlikely to send you a bill because of your ROTC background. Unless you did nursing ROTC, they will probably expect you to pay back your obligation as a line officer (that is what you trained to do), with a 6 year obligation instead of a 4 year.

 

[Perrotfish]

Bad doctors mean the slot is filled, and the military has no incentive to fill it.

Come on, you'e seen how understaffed the military allows their clinics to become. The fact is that when a slot's not filled, they just stay unfilled. he drops out it's going to leave a hole, not a problem that they'll promptly fix.

He needs to hear what the military says about how he pays them back (sweat or cash) and he needs to do some navel gazing and ask himself if he really wants to be a doctor. If the answer to the latter is "no", continuing would be foolish.

Part of the problem here is that I don't there's anyone in the military who can (or will) give him a definitive answer about how he's going to pay back his obligation until such time as he's acctually dropped out, all he can get is someone telling him what will 'probably' happen. I think he should go ahead and plan on doing whichever one he is least interestd in doing. If either packback option is unacceptable to him I think he should stay in school.

If the OP was gung ho about it, I'd tell him give it a shot. If he's had multiple failures and his heart is just not in it, that doesn't make for great chances in third year.

Who the F- feels gung ho about something that just went really badly? Have you ever failed anything? Had a bad application cycle,screwed up a class, lost a football game, something? The reason that you have to teach kids to always get back on the horse is that no one in their right mind wants to get on a friggin horse that they just fell off of. It's always going to take an effort of will, and normally some external encouragement as well.

 

[notdeadyet]

The best data on this subject comes from MCAT scores. MCATs predict performance in MS1 and MS2 years fairly well, MS3 and MS4 fairly poorly and residency not at all.

I've seen mention of that before. And it's something I'd cite to someone with no evidence to the contrary. But if the OP has struggled with first and second year, to the point of possibly having to repeat both years, I'd be very uncomfortable citing those studies as evidence that MS3 year will go just fine. Particularly if his heart isn't in the game.

Further, there are no tests in MS3 that require a student to repeat a year. If he/she fails a shelf exam, at most, that means repeating a rotation during MS4.

Depends on the school. At some schools, it's a 4 week repeat. At some schools it's an 8 week repeat. But unless your school is ridiculously generous with vacation time, you can only fail a couple MS3 clerkships without fourth year dragging out to the point you put off residency by a year.

Now, for the broader question about whether this person can be a "good" doctor...who exactly do you think you are?

What are you talking about? I'm not questioning whether he'll be a good doctor. I'm questioning Perrot's assumption that any body, regardless of skill, is better than an unfilled slot.

I'm not predicting what kind of doctor the OP is going to be. I don't know the dude. Relax...

I respect the fact that the OP is not liking med school and is questioning his career decision. That takes a lot of guts, since there's an almost maniacal push to stay the course in this field. And we have a lot of bitter doctors to show for it. If he decides medicine isn't right for him, I give him kudos to looking into other opportunities

If the Dean of the medical school is willing to let him continue, you would overrule that based on what?

I don't care what the Dean thinks. Or what you think. It's what the OP thinks that matters. He's thinking he may have made the wrong career choice. I don't think this is the big sin everyone makes it out to be.

Med school is incented to not kick him out. So is residency and the military. He's going to get a lot of pressure to keep plugging away at a career that may or may not be for him. I applaud him asking himself the tough questions.

 

[notdeadyet]

Part of the problem here is that I don't there's anyone in the military who can (or will) give him a definitive answer about how he's going to pay back his obligation until such time as he's acctually dropped out, all he can get is someone telling him what will 'probably' happen. I think he should go ahead and plan on doing whichever one he is least interestd in doing. If either packback option is unacceptable to him I think he should stay in school.

Good advice, but I'd ammend it that "if either payback option is more unacceptable than continuing with medical school, residency and committing to a career as a doctor, he should stay in school."

Have you ever failed anything? Had a bad application cycle,screwed up a class, lost a football game, something?

Failed plenty of stuff worse than that, trust me.

The reason that you have to teach kids to always get back on the horse is that no one in their right mind wants to get on a friggin horse that they just fell off of. It's always going to take an effort of will, and normally some external encouragement as well.

Feel free to treat the OP as a kid who fell off his bicycle. I'll treat him as a man who's questioning his career decision.

Lots of folks view med school as akin to the preisthood. It's grad school, folks. If the OP decides it's not for him, he needs to make sure he has Plan B's that are more appealing (given his military commitment).

 

[Morsetlis]

Well, let's not think of sunk costs. The only thing that matters is:

-Will the OP be able to complete medical school?

This is actually a question of mental competency and will, both of which are in ample stores if the OP actually managed to get into medical school and retake MS-1 and pass it. I've met so many bad physicians that I don't doubt that, with the proper studying and training, the OP can still become one of those.

Just stick to primary care, ok.

 

[Classic17]

Not to be overly redundant here, but you should definitely stick it out. I am a second year and everyone I talk to is scared about hitting third and fourth year and not knowing what the hell is going on. The thing with medicine is that we all learn and everyone feels lost during their training.

Talk to any physician and they will say that sooner or later everything starts coming together, but it does not happen in medical school and probably not until a couple of years into residency. You will be trained by good people who will make sure you are ready before "setting you loose." Stick it out, no one wants to risk having hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay off and there is no way you will not regret dropping out for the rest of your life.

Also, I am not sure what school you go to, but where I go, if you know 75% of the material, manifest as an exam score, you would be in the top third of my class (especially in Anatomy (Pass Level 55), Histology (PL 51), Physiology (PL 61), just to name a few.) On my second Anatomy exam, I failed BIG TIME, but recovered. We all have our moments ;-)

Good Luck!

 

[mac61]

Just stick to primary care, ok.

Awesome. I'm sure no disrespect to the primary care docs out there was intended by the guy still fighting AMCAS. 😱

 

[Folet50]

Thank you, I appreciate the advice.

Seems whenever I call the HPSP people no one is in the office!

 

[notdeadyet]

Thank you, I appreciate the advice.

Seems whenever I call the HPSP people no one is in the office!

Fingers crossed, Folet. Hope you hear news that you like...

 

[Mister T]

I'm on HPSP and I am fairly certain I failed (pretty sure on this). I don't plan to continue and repeat the year if that is the case.

So what happens now? I tried calling the HPSP people because I had a feeling this was it and wanted to know what would happen but with the blizzard their offices were closed all week. So I remembered this place had a military forum to ask things on.

I've wanted to be in the armed forces since like forever and thought this would be the best way to serve- guess not, lol (not to make light of it but...).

Does anyone know what happens? I didn't do any military rotations yet so I don't know any military physicians or anything.

I also assume my options are probably limited.

Take a year off, relax, do whatever the substitute is the military asks you and finish your last 2 years. Don't be a *****, you're halfway through and you should finish it off. Don't go through residency if you don't want, but get the MD/DO.

Third year will be your last "hell" year --- maybe or maybe not and then fourth year you can relax, I hear that 4th year is a breeze compared to the first 3 anyways.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Take a year off, relax, do whatever the substitute is the military asks you and finish your last 2 years. Don't be a *****, you're halfway through and you should finish it off. Don't go through residency if you don't want, but get the MD/DO.

Third year will be your last "hell" year --- maybe or maybe not and then fourth year you can relax, I hear that 4th year is a breeze compared to the first 3 anyways.

Fourth year isn't really any better. You're a bit more independent and can get away with doing less, especially after you have matched, but then you have the stress of passing the rest of your boards, finishing any senior required rotations, and trying to juggle the plan for moving and all of that.

After reading this post, my concern about passing the COMLEX PE (the practical one in philly) seems a bit silly, particularly in light of having successfully completed everything else. For some reason, I have this nagging worry that I won't pass the military won't be forgiving about it.

 

[SeminoleFan3]

Take a year off, relax, do whatever the substitute is the military asks you and finish your last 2 years. Don't be a *****, you're halfway through and you should finish it off. Don't go through residency if you don't want, but get the MD/DO.

Third year will be your last "hell" year --- maybe or maybe not and then fourth year you can relax, I hear that 4th year is a breeze compared to the first 3 anyways.

I think in the US you only have 6 years to complete medical school. He'd have to start ALL over if he did his military payback then tried to go back to medical school.

 

[narcusprince]

Take a year off, relax, do whatever the substitute is the military asks you and finish your last 2 years. Don't be a *****, you're halfway through and you should finish it off. Don't go through residency if you don't want, but get the MD/DO.

Third year will be your last "hell" year --- maybe or maybe not and then fourth year you can relax, I hear that 4th year is a breeze compared to the first 3 anyways.

Your talking medical school. I can tell you as a resident things get a lot more difficult. I thought medical school was a breeze compared to residency. Try thinking on your toes at 0330 with angry nurses breathing down your neck, add on a list of 40 pts in pain who want your sole undivided attention. Medical school may be stressful wait to you put on the pants for real and really have to make life or death decisions. Also, in residency you still have to take boards, and periodic exams, on top of working 70-80 hrs at times. Getting out of medicine may be a blessing in disguise.

 

[notdeadyet]

I think in the US you only have 6 years to complete medical school. He'd have to start ALL over if he did his military payback then tried to go back to medical school.

That might be a moot point.

You have to request a leave of absence. It's one thing to request a leave for a year to have a child or do research. It's another to request taking four years out when you're already in academic jeopardy. The school may very well say "no," as the chance of your coming back and doing so successfully may be viewed as a very big risk the school doesn't want to take.

And med school is tough enough to get in the first time. If you have a track record of not succeeding the first time, getting a school to accept you again might be a longshot.

 

[Mister T]

Your talking medical school. I can tell you as a resident things get a lot more difficult. I thought medical school was a breeze compared to residency. Try thinking on your toes at 0330 with angry nurses breathing down your neck, add on a list of 40 pts in pain who want your sole undivided attention. Medical school may be stressful wait to you put on the pants for real and really have to make life or death decisions. Also, in residency you still have to take boards, and periodic exams, on top of working 70-80 hrs at times. Getting out of medicine may be a blessing in disguise.

Yes, but what I'm said was that he should finish the last two years and NOT go into residency if he doesn't want to.

At least with the MD degree by itself it opens new doors otherwise he has a ****ty useless Bachelor's degree. He needs to finish his MD/DO degree adn then decide if he wants to continue on.

 

[Folet50]

Well, it is official now.

I don't know what's up with HPSP but I called my branches office all through today and no one there. Sort of frustrating. I left a message but I'm gonna try in the morning on Monday.

The dean had me go see one of the 'learning specialists' and a few different er, 'ideas' were raised as to why I've been struggling academically.

Hopefully our advancement committee will give me the opportunity to repeat if I want to. I don't know if I do. The failure is really sort of a major downer and I think my previous post of my heart not really being in it might have been more shock/upset/anger at failing.

I'm hoping they'll let me repeat if I want to and my branch will do so as well. And that will give me at least a month or two to really think about it. This actually happened my first year, too. I did fine up until the end and then failed 3 courses all within a month of each other near the end of the year. And we were only like one system or two from being done.

I don't know. I'm hoping my military branch will give me some time to think it over. I'm not going to hold my breath on that. And truthfully, not knowing what my branch is going to do has me more antsy than what the school is going to do.

 

[Mister T]

Well, it is official now.

I don't know what's up with HPSP but I called my branches office all through today and no one there. Sort of frustrating. I left a message but I'm gonna try in the morning on Monday.

The dean had me go see one of the 'learning specialists' and a few different er, 'ideas' were raised as to why I've been struggling academically.

Hopefully our advancement committee will give me the opportunity to repeat if I want to. I don't know if I do. The failure is really sort of a major downer and I think my previous post of my heart not really being in it might have been more shock/upset/anger at failing.

I'm hoping they'll let me repeat if I want to and my branch will do so as well. And that will give me at least a month or two to really think about it. This actually happened my first year, too. I did fine up until the end and then failed 3 courses all within a month of each other near the end of the year. And we were only like one system or two from being done.

I don't know. I'm hoping my military branch will give me some time to think it over. I'm not going to hold my breath on that. And truthfully, not knowing what my branch is going to do has me more antsy than what the school is going to do.

finish medical school, don't pursue residency if you don't want to, but if you drop out now you're going to be a regular college graduate and you will regret it if you quit now. Guaranteed. Suffer for a little more and then bail out if you need to. The degree will open doors for you in income and career possibilities even without a residency.

 

[Gastrapathy]

finish medical school, don't pursue residency if you don't want to, but if you drop out now you're going to be a regular college graduate and you will regret it if you quit now. Guaranteed. Suffer for a little more and then bail out if you need to. The degree will open doors for you in income and career possibilities even without a residency.

Not good advice. These "non-clinical jobs" that everyone points to are few and far between. If you're going to finish med school, do a residency.

 

[a1qwerty55]

Not to be a downer here but there is a basic cognitive skill set which is necessary to be a safe physician in any speciality. If you failed multiple classes over two years in medical school this suggests while you might have a desire to be a physician, you probably don't have the aptitude. More people need to fail in medical school in my opinion. We push way too many through and then leave it to the residency staff to can them when it is harder and they are that much farther along in the process. I train residents. One coming in with you history probably is not going to make it through my residency and has zero change of becoming board certified.

 

[Mister T]

Not to be a downer here but there is a basic cognitive skill set which is necessary to be a safe physician in any speciality. If you failed multiple classes over two years in medical school this suggests while you might have a desire to be a physician, you probably don't have the aptitude. More people need to fail in medical school in my opinion. We push way too many through and then leave it to the residency staff to can them when it is harder and they are that much farther along in the process. I train residents. One coming in with you history probably is not going to make it through my residency and has zero change of becoming board certified.

Aptitude could be part of it, but i would also say lack of interest/burnt outness/lack of maturity and life experiences. Let's face it, medicine isn't super exciting **** as TV/shadowing/society makes it out to be. It's a job like no other, and doctors are highly skilled technicians in a sense. Sure you'll say to yourself, "but I enjoy it" but are you just saying that or do you feel as though that you really love it, because I gotta tell you that if you are one of the few who truly love it, then you're something else.

Not good advice. These "non-clinical jobs" that everyone points to are few and far between. If you're going to finish med school, do a residency.

And to the attending who is suggesting that the dude should just drop out of medical school. What do you suggest then to a student who fails/drops out of medical school and has only an undergrad degree?

I think it stands for itself that he might as well finish the degree and doesn't the military at least pay you for being a GMO if you graduate and don't place into residency? The pay and benefits are not that bad.

Besides, he can also just end up working for a pharmaceutical company and pick up an MBA on the side and deal with the business/sales aspects of health care.

Edit: There is a whole blog about a medical school graduate who chose not to pursue residency (he vividly describes his experiences in medical school quite well <--- BEST BLOG EVER): www.medschoolhell.com

Here is my growing list of non-clinical opportunities for medical school graduates (not in any particular order).
1. Healthcare administration, medical management, hospital administration, managed care &#8211; Are you a seasoned healthcare executive? Do you enjoy making administrative decisions? Then join the American College of Physician Executives (ACPE) and run a hospital or a managed care organization. If you have a strong interest in managed care, then check out the NAMCP (National Association of Managed Care Physicians). You may want to get an MBA or an MMM (masters in medical management) if you don't already have one. An active US medical license is required for most (if not all) of these positions, so plan to do your residency.
2. VC (venture capital), finance, Wall Street, market research, etc.- Got an MBA? If not, are you thinking of getting one? Some will argue that once you have an "M.D." after your name, it may not matter as much where you get your MBA. However, I would argue that your MBA is your path to networking opportunities, so where you get your MBA is critical if you want to have a solid network. Once you get your MBA, you can work for venture capital (VC) firms, dig into market research companies, or work for Wall Street. Heard of the Gerson Lehrman Group (www.glgroup.com)? No clinical experience necessary for many of these opportunities, but it's always helpful so that you can effectively communicate with KOLs (key opinion leaders) in the field. Many joint MD/MBA students have ventured directly into very successful careers this way. Also, an MBA is not necessary if you have some good business skills and understand the healthcare industry. You will need strong people skills and a willingness to work long hours.
3. Writing and medical communications (includes promotional education, certified CME/CE, consumer health education, and much more) &#8211; Do you enjoy writing? Many physicians and non-physicians have very successful careers as medical writers. The field is open to people who enjoy fiction writing, publications, research, or other types of writing. You can get involved working on journal publications, developing promotional content for marketing campaigns, or developing CME programs. Join the AMWA (American Medical Writers Association) and look for opportunities. You can work from home as a freelance writer and have a very flexible schedule. Or, you can work for a publisher or another type of healthcare communications company. You can find a list of some companies by looking at the North American Association of Medical Education and Communication Companies, Inc., (NAAMECC) website. No clinical experience / residency necessary for many of these types of opportunities.
4. Technology and Informatics (health information technology, healthcare informatics, EHR/EMR, PHR) &#8211; Want to develop or improve an electronic health record (EHR) system? Do you love informatics? Then join the CCHIT (Certification Commission for Healthcare Information Technology), the AMIA (American Medical Informatics Association), and the AHIMA (American Health Information Management Association). Clinicians use EHRs and patients (or consumers) use PHRs (Personal Health Records). There are many companies attempting to integrate the data between PHRs and EHRs. There is a national initiative to improve and standardize public health informatics, so now is a great time to enter this industry. No clinical experience necessary (but is always helpful), and you should be familiar with ICD, CPT, and other billing codes used in this industry.
5. Disease management, Personal health record (PHR) &#8211; Managed care organizations (MCOs) are always looking for better disease management (DM) programs for their plans. Some MCOs develop their own DM plans and others outsource them to external companies. These companies create and deliver various services to managed care organizations, including DM, wellness programs, personal health record (PHR) services, etc. Do you ever get educational pamphlets from your own health plan? Who puts them together? Who designs and develops these wellness and preventive health programs? It's not always WebMD. There are other companies that provide similar services.
6. Pharmaceutical/Biotechnology/Medical Device- If you're a medical specialist, there are many opportunities to do research for these companies. If you don't enjoy research, then you can develop marketing strategies. Direct-to-consumer (DTC) advertisements have become very popular these days. See all those ads in the medical journals? Get ready for that "corporate America" lifestyle if you plan to venture into industry. You may be working even more hours and carrying a Blackberry instead of a pager, but if you climb that "corporate ladder" and play the corporate game, you may qualify for an early retirement. Young people who are fast learners may be very aggressive and advance rapidly. Be prepared to have a younger boss if you're a seasoned clinician.
7. Independent medical examiner (IME), Expert witnessing, and Legal medicine &#8211; Personal injury, medical malpractice, nursing home care, etc. There are firms that specialize in specific areas (like nursing home cases). Want more information? Join the American College of Legal Medicine (ACLM). You can also become board certified by the American Board of Legal Medicine (ABLM). You'll need an active medical license.
8. Public health, population health, health policy, and government health &#8211; Get an MPH, join the APHA (American Public Health Association), and find a local health department. Or, join the CDC and travel the world. Develop strategies to improve population health. Some pharmaceutical companies also have public health sections and are very devoted to public health and international health (Pfizer in particular comes to mind). Bridge gaps in healthcare disparities. Work for the FDA or a state or local health agency.
9. Consulting &#8211; The world is open. Want to work for yourself or for a company? Many healthcare companies are looking for experts to help them develop, refine, and improve their products and services. It may be hard to get started unless you've already established connections. Once again, social networking becomes critical. Your initial success will depend more on who you know.
10. Research &#8211; Academia vs. private vs. industry vs. CRO. You don't have to go into industry to do research. Look for a Contract Research Organization (CRO) in your area. Join the ACRO (Association of Clinical Research Organizations). You may want to look at PPD (no, this is not the TB skin test). PPD is a large global CRO. Of course, there are also many other CROs.
11. Executive recruiting, search firm, headhunting, human resources &#8211; Physicians can work as an executive recruiter to hire and place other physicians. You can also work your way up and manage other recruiters who do the hiring. Remember, these &#8216;head hunters' get paid a commission based on the salary of the person they place. The $ earning potential can be tremendous if you're successful.
12. Start a company &#8211; Have an innovative idea? Start a company! New companies seem to be sprouting all the time. Stay connected with people and keep your eyes open for new ideas. Get an MBA and meet people who can help you get a concept off the ground.
Not sure where to start? As I mentioned above, start building your social and professional network. Reconnect with people and ask many questions. Find people who are in various positions and ask them what they like/dislike. Join some associations to build your network and to find companies. Note that some associations are specifically for physicians, but many are open to all types of healthcare professionals. Also, even those that are specifically for physicians (such as the ACPE) offer affiliate memberships for certain non-physicians.

http://www.medschoolhell.com/2009/03/22/non-clinical-opportunities-after-medical-school/

 

[notdeadyet]

Besides, he can also just end up working for a pharmaceutical company and pick up an MBA on the side and deal with the business/sales aspects of health care.

I think that this misnomer is exactly what Gastrapathy is referring to. Folks see all these exciting non-clinical jobs for doctors and assume "well, without a residency, I could always do that..."

What's not explained is that most of these jobs are not looking for an MD, they are looking for a physician.

Almost all of the jobs listed in the blog you quote are looking for people who have excelled in their field and can bring their experiences to the table. Do you think a venture capitalist, hospital administrator, or consulting firm are going to give a krap that you managed to limp your way through two years of science classes and rotated through clerkships for two years without accidentally stabbing a surgeon?

There are lots of non-clinical jobs for folks who tire of medicine. But anyone doing four years of med school in the hopes that the MD after their name is going to kick open any doors for them might be in for some surprises.

 

[Perrotfish]

Not good advice. These "non-clinical jobs" that everyone points to are few and far between. If you're going to finish med school, do a residency.

Well one place where there not few and far between is the military, there are lots of admin and MSC jobs to go around. Could he finish med school, do an intern year, and then transfer to the MSC as some kind of admin? That way he could start as an O3 and not be behind all of his undergrad classmates that went straight in after ROTC.

I think that this misnomer is exactly what Gastrapathy is referring to. Folks see all these exciting non-clinical jobs for doctors and assume "well, without a residency, I could always do that..."

What's not explained is that most of these jobs are not looking for an MD, they are looking for a physician.

Almost all of the jobs listed in the blog you quote are looking for people who have excelled in their field and can bring their experiences to the table. Do you think a venture capitalist, hospital administrator, or consulting firm are going to give a krap that you managed to limp your way through two years of science classes and rotated through clerkships for two years without accidentally stabbing a surgeon?

There are lots of non-clinical jobs for folks who tire of medicine. But anyone doing four years of med school in the hopes that the MD after their name is going to kick open any doors for them might be in for some surprises.

Do you have any basis for this statement? What exactly is your experience with HR departments in hopital administration, big pharma, and venture capitalism?

 

[notdeadyet]

Do you have any basis for this statement? What exactly is your experience with HR departments in hopital administration, big pharma, and venture capitalism?

My experience in consulting (working mostly with tech companies, but some healthcare thrown in) has been that when MDs were hired, they were hired as subject matter experts. Very bright men and women with lots of experience. When we met with clients at healthcare companies, those at the table were usually MBA-types whose line of business happens to be healthcare or MDs who were there (ready?) as subject matter experts.

An MD does not make you an expert in anything. Companies are aware of this. If they are in a position that they need to hire an MD, they're going to hire one who completed his training.

I'm hoping that you've noticed a different trend in your personal experience. Because otherwise, why would you call into question mine?

 

[Perrotfish]

I'm hoping that you've noticed a different trend in your personal experience. Because otherwise, why would you call into question mine?

Because you haven't even graduated from medical school yet and you're making a very authoritative statment aboutthe hiring practices of half a dozen different fields that you've never worked in without even prefacing it with something along the lines of "I would guess that" or "I would imagine". I don't know that you're right I wrong, I just don't think that you really know either.

To answer your question yes I have seen the corporations I worked for value a degree without really considering how it impacted relevant job skills.

 

[notdeadyet]

To answer your question yes I have seen the corporations I worked for value a degree without really considering how it impacted relevant job skills.

Your cute phrasing is really saying that you haven't experienced anything contrary to what I said. We're talking about the hiring of MDs without residency. In my experience, MDs I've met and worked with on projects and contracts have all been residency trained. I don't hear you saying you've seen different. You're right that having an MA in photography can be a great talking point when applying for the MBA-level job at D&T. I'm sure an MD would as well. But expecting an MD with no residency training to make you competitive at jobs that are looking to hire physicians might be underwhelming.

Regardless, the OP is trying to decide if he wants to be a doctor, which is the healthy approach. It doesn't sound like he's trying to talk himself into finishing med school for all non-medical career options for non-residency trained MD.