Advice- Failed. What happens now?

[Mister T]

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Your cute phrasing is really saying that you haven't experienced anything contrary to what I said. We're talking about the hiring of MDs without residency. In my experience, MDs I've met and worked with on projects and contracts have all been residency trained. I don't hear you saying you've seen different. You're right that having an MA in photography can be a great talking point when applying for the MBA-level job at D&T. I'm sure an MD would as well. But expecting an MD with no residency training to make you competitive at jobs that are looking to hire physicians might be underwhelming.

Regardless, the OP is trying to decide if he wants to be a doctor, which is the healthy approach. It doesn't sound like he's trying to talk himself into finishing med school for all non-medical career options for non-residency trained MD.

Ok, let's assume that you're correct. And let's say he decides to drop out of medical school. Then what? What are his career options with a B.S. degree? Pretty bad. I think having an MD degree still stands stronger than just having a bachelor's degree.

Like one of the posters above alluded to the military has a lot of admin type jobs, paper pushing, etc. that a medical graduate who didn't pursue could qualify. In fact, don't they often times become GMOs, if they don't match into a residency of choice?

It sounds like it's better to keep the doors open at least with getting the MD degree and being able to pursue a residency if he chooses to do so later down the line.

5 years from now if he realizes that a bachelor's degree in biology will get him a ****ty lab job for $8.00/hour, he's probably going to muster up the motivation to work harder.

At least, he'll have had his MD/DO degree and can go into residency with less barriers rather than just starting through rotations and all again, that is if they even let him.

In any case, the shortest residencies are like two years in medicine and are in public health or infectious disease I believe.

Let's just say that for the sake of argument that you are right that he can't find any jobs with his medical school degree. If that's the case, I would still say that he should finish off medical school because A) it looks better B) opens the door for residency should he pursue it at a hopefully not too longer point in his life C) if he drops from his HPSP scholarship then the mlilitary isn't just gonna let him go away scot free, they are going to retain him and work odd jobs for officer or even enlisted pay and serve out the years that he used up.

It sounds like the OP just needs some time (a year or two?) to reflect, grow a bit more, understand the reality of life, and maybe get a break from studying hardcore all the time. If I were him I would "volunteer" and do some low level "research" for a year or two or even three, or "pursue" some classes to rest/recover and figure out what he's going to do.

Being a bit older and going to medical school ALWAYS helps. Not only are you wiser, but you tend to be calmer, more mature, and focused in general.

I find it really sad that we don't give second chances the higher up the totem pole we go. I know that many of my peers who were **** ups growing up were "given" a chance to correct themselves when their problems really ****ed them over. For instance, a lot of my friends who were ****ty students in high school really wisened up in college.

Sometimes going through life without failure is a curse in disguise because it sets you to be arrogant and comfortable in your "perfection" but little do you know what your weaknesses are as you have never been able to really examine them.

I'll tell you that for me for example, I never had to work hard my whole life to get good grades, and I assume that that is a common problem wiht many "smart" kids. But when I hit college, I really got slammed when kids who needed to compensate for their "lack" of "intelligence" (I don't like qualifying intelligence as it's such a subjective and ambiguous thing...) their whole lives learned the lesson early in life that the only way for success is to be hard working. What is the student who never worked hard to do well to do? You have to experience failure sometimes to really change your outlook on life. You know what they say, what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger blah blah blah.

I guess the higher up you go the totem pole, the less room and the less forgiving people will be with your mistakes. Say one day, you're a neurosurgeon and you accidentally kill someone even though it wasn't your fault. Boom, instant lawsuit,threat of losing all your money, and your license, and even going to prison.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Well one place where there not few and far between is the military, there are lots of admin and MSC jobs to go around. Could he finish med school, do an intern year, and then transfer to the MSC as some kind of admin? That way he could start as an O3 and not be behind all of his undergrad classmates that went straight in after ROTC.



Do you have any basis for this statement? What exactly is your experience with HR departments in hopital administration, big pharma, and venture capitalism?

MC and MSC are two different career tracks. MSC's have degrees in admin stuff. If he finishes med school and internship, the .mil will expect him to be a doctor.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Mister T: This list is exactly the BS i was talking about. Lets look at it.
1. Hospital CEO: Are you f-ing serious? As an MD who didn't finish residency? Find me one. Their bios are all on the internet.
2. VC: so, you're already rich or just think you can impress rich smart people to give you money because you got a degree. Right.
3. "look for opportunities" enough said.
4. a degree in computer science, not an MD.
5. "there are companies" and they are hiring...oh wait, we don't actually have a clue about that
6. drug/device rep. Are you hot?
7. American Board of Legal Medicine: need a law degree or 5 years experience. Also, I'm barely experienced enough as a several year attending subspecialist to get this kind of work. An expert witness who didn't do a residency. Even lawyers aren't that dumb.
8. THere are real doctors who want these jobs. Get an MPH, do a residency, then they might hire you.
9. Consulting – you are an expert at nothing, no one will hire you. Also, where are all these consulting jobs. Most consulting is done on the side by subject matter experts.
10. Research: sure, write a grant. Of course you can't touch a patient. Actually, this is the one place that I know a couple of MDs from overseas have found work without going through residency, they get paid crapola.
11. Executive recruiting...The $ earning potential can be tremendous if you’re successful. Umm, what does this have to do with being a doctor. Oh yeah, are you hot?
12. Start a company – Have an innovative idea? And last but not least, open a Starbucks. Sure, thats a nonclinical job alright.

My point is that this is all a bunch of BS. Its a list written by someone who wanted to prove that there were options. There aren't. An MD is worthless without a residency.

 

[Gastrapathy]

I find it really sad that we don't give second chances the higher up the totem pole we go. I know that many of my peers who were **** ups growing up were "given" a chance to correct themselves when their problems really ****ed them over. For instance, a lot of my friends who were ****ty students in high school really wisened up in college.


I argued earlier that the OP should keep trying but, at some point, it stops being about the individual trainee and starts being about the patients. I tend to think that point is 3rd year and that its hard to know how well someone will perform on the wards prior to that. A1 disagrees and, frankly, he may be right.

 

[Perrotfish]

MC and MSC are two different career tracks. MSC's have degrees in admin stuff. If he finishes med school and internship, the .mil will expect him to be a doctor.

Isn't the MSC where they put people who was out of residency/internship, though? A1, you said you had some experience with people washing out, where did they go?

 

[Folet50]

Hm, well, since no one seemed to be there I think not knowing what the branch will do is worse. At least then I'd know.

Since I have an obligation left over from ROTC (which they said I most definitely would have tacked on when I talked to them about the contract a few years ago) I'm hoping if they don't let me continue, if the school doesn't, then I can go MSC or something and hopefully get into admin and learn/do something productive.

I do know of that happening before but the specifics of the situation were very different in comparison to mine.

Well, whatever happens I dug this hole so I gotta get out of it.

 

[a1qwerty55]

Well, whatever happens I dug this hole so I gotta get out of it.

Don't get too down. When one door closes, another opens. Whatever happens - whether you continue or not, keep your head high and stay optimistic.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Isn't the MSC where they put people who was out of residency/internship, though? A1, you said you had some experience with people washing out, where did they go?

At least what I've seen in the Navy is that you remain in the MC and just fill some administrative function for your time. There was a gal with severe major depression (think ECT) who failed as an intern. She handed out basketballs at the gym.

Its possible that he could be redesignated but with his ROTC obligation and training, I'd be surprised if they didn't hand him back over to the line bubbas and make him a line officer.

 

[Folet50]

It looks like it's fairly certain my ROTC obligation will kick in. If I didn't have that it looks like I'd have been separated from the service before I even served! That would have been 10x worse since I've wanted to be in the military since I was a kid.

I'm praying at the moment that they'll let me tack on years to my ROTC obligation... I'm hoping. It looks like from a preliminary talk that I'll be going back to the unrestricted line community and probably SWO. Pay v service is up int he air concerning the 2 years I took HPSP money and obviously they have my Social so they can garnish wages but they said they'd work a payment plan if their decision is to pay it back.

Which would suck since it's six figures of tuition but it wouldn't be crippling. My standard of living would probably be slightly lower than average for new JOs but hardly debilitating and higher than mine right now!

The process will take anywhere from a few months to six. Nothing will get started until our school advancement committee meets and decides my fate. But it seems like it's probably just academic at this point. They only allow LWOP once so this would be the end of my short and failed medical non-career, lol (not that it's funny).

I'm really holding out that they just let me serve this back even if it's a ten year obligation because I think I'd make a good officer. I just won't be serving the good ole US of A as a military doctor. As I think about it more- and not having really any choice in deciding to continue even if the advancement committee rules in my favor- I think I wasn't mature enough to make such a decision right out of college. I think I might have took the medical school route because I thought it was "safe" (irony!) and was something familiar. Maybe I was a bit scared of actually going out and being "on my own"? I don't know. I just think if I had had some real life experience I could have made a far better decision.

Hindsight. 20/20.

 

[sideways]

...

Hindsight. 20/20.

Well here's some foresight: if I were you I'd be going ape to do what I had to do to get back in the med school game. Med school sucks, I'll be the first to admit it. But if you think you aren't going to be looking back on this decision for the rest of your life, you're naive. If you give up this opportunity to become a physician that you've been blessed with, you're going to be one bitter dude in 20 years.

Suck it up, kiss serious ass, get back in it, work hard, get it over with, and become a doctor. I promise when all's said and done you won't regret it.

Keep something in mind, the relief you may currently feel by no longer having to deal with the stress of med school is going to cost you "what ifs" for the rest of your life. I'm not being dramatic either. It's the truth.

 

[Mister T]

Well here's some foresight: if I were you I'd be going ape to do what I had to do to get back in the med school game. Med school sucks, I'll be the first to admit it. But if you think you aren't going to be looking back on this decision for the rest of your life, you're naive. If you give up this opportunity to become a physician that you've been blessed with, you're going to be one bitter dude in 20 years.

Suck it up, kiss serious ass, get back in it, work hard, get it over with, and become a doctor. I promise when all's said and done you won't regret it.

Keep something in mind, the relief you may currently feel by no longer having to deal with the stress of med school is going to cost you "what ifs" for the rest of your life. I'm not being dramatic either. It's the truth.

This man is a ****ing champ. Listen to him. 👍

 

[Folet50]

That's true. I don't doubt in a few years I'll be looking back and wondering "what if" but at the same time, I don't know. I've had a lot of conflicting emotions on it so I'll say its possible but again, I just don't know.

I think my "relief" wasn't clear in that I'm not relieved to be done with med school, no, but I am more relieved to know now what is most likely going to happen. Knowing I failed the year is something I can deal with but having a complete unknown (what is the military going to do to me) was the biggest stress of it. Because now I know. That's the relief. It really sucks to have failed- I've never really failed anything before.

Maybe a better cliche was to say if you're given lemons make lemonade.

 

[sideways]

That's true. I don't doubt in a few years I'll be looking back and wondering "what if" but at the same time, I don't know. I've had a lot of conflicting emotions on it so I'll say its possible but again, I just don't know.

I think my "relief" wasn't clear in that I'm not relieved to be done with med school, no, but I am more relieved to know now what is most likely going to happen. Knowing I failed the year is something I can deal with but having a complete unknown (what is the military going to do to me) was the biggest stress of it. Because now I know. That's the relief. It really sucks to have failed- I've never really failed anything before.

Maybe a better cliche was to say if you're given lemons make lemonade.

I'd like to throw a lemon at your head right now. Read my previous post over and over and over and over. You have the chance to make a truly life-altering decision. The wrong decision, ditching medicine, WILL HAUNT YOU FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

 

[DD214_DOC]

I'd like to throw a lemon at your head right now. Read my previous post over and over and over and over. You have the chance to make a truly life-altering decision. The wrong decision, ditching medicine, WILL HAUNT YOU FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

My impression from his post is that continuing in the med school game is no longer an option. He already took a year LWOP to repeat MS1. He now would have to take another year to repeat MS2, which the military will not allow. Regardless of the school board's decision to allow him to repeat or not, he simply can't. Even if the military decides to force him to repay the two years of HPSP, he still has a ROTC commitment to fulfill.

As sideways pointed out, yes there are tons of, "What ifs" in your future. I have them too. What if I had more time to spend with my wife and son? What if I had stayed in law enforcement? What if I tried a little harder to become a combat aviator? What if I actually did change to law school my junior year of college?

You tried, it didn't work out. You have other promising prospects. Take that journey and enjoy your life -- you only get one.

 

[faith2]

I hope everything works out for you. 😍

It looks like it's fairly certain my ROTC obligation will kick in. If I didn't have that it looks like I'd have been separated from the service before I even served! That would have been 10x worse since I've wanted to be in the military since I was a kid.

I'm praying at the moment that they'll let me tack on years to my ROTC obligation... I'm hoping. It looks like from a preliminary talk that I'll be going back to the unrestricted line community and probably SWO. Pay v service is up int he air concerning the 2 years I took HPSP money and obviously they have my Social so they can garnish wages but they said they'd work a payment plan if their decision is to pay it back.

Which would suck since it's six figures of tuition but it wouldn't be crippling. My standard of living would probably be slightly lower than average for new JOs but hardly debilitating and higher than mine right now!

The process will take anywhere from a few months to six. Nothing will get started until our school advancement committee meets and decides my fate. But it seems like it's probably just academic at this point. They only allow LWOP once so this would be the end of my short and failed medical non-career, lol (not that it's funny).

I'm really holding out that they just let me serve this back even if it's a ten year obligation because I think I'd make a good officer. I just won't be serving the good ole US of A as a military doctor. As I think about it more- and not having really any choice in deciding to continue even if the advancement committee rules in my favor- I think I wasn't mature enough to make such a decision right out of college. I think I might have took the medical school route because I thought it was "safe" (irony!) and was something familiar. Maybe I was a bit scared of actually going out and being "on my own"? I don't know. I just think if I had had some real life experience I could have made a far better decision.

Hindsight. 20/20.

 

[Gastrapathy]

I'd like to throw a lemon at your head right now. Read my previous post over and over and over and over. You have the chance to make a truly life-altering decision. The wrong decision, ditching medicine, WILL HAUNT YOU FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

Wow. This is the single most arrogant self-important post I've ever seen on a website devoted to doctors, medical students and premeds.

Congrats.

OP, if they want to make you pay them the money back and you want to serve the time, don't take no for an answer. Run it up the chain and, if need be, call a congressman. You aren't trying to get out of anything and this should work out for you.

 

[Perrotfish]

OP, if they want to make you pay them the money back and you want to serve the time, don't take no for an answer. Run it up the chain and, if need be, call a congressman. You aren't trying to get out of anything and this should work out for you

On the same note, when the military says he 'can't' take a 2nd LWOP, is that really true? Is there an unbreakable, unbendable policy that says this, or is this just a committee decision that he can protest?

I'd like to throw a lemon at your head right now. Read my previous post over and over and over and over. You have the chance to make a truly life-altering decision. The wrong decision, ditching medicine, WILL HAUNT YOU FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE

You're sort of a dick, aren't you?

 

[sideways]

On the same note, when the military says he 'can't' take a 2nd LWOP, is that really true? Is there an unbreakable, unbendable policy that says this, or is this just a committee decision that he can protest?



You're sort of a dick, aren't you?

😴

Just trying to help him.

 

[notdeadyet]

The wrong decision, ditching medicine, WILL HAUNT YOU FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

The fact that you think leaving medical school is always the worst decision for anyone in any circumstance (including for a dude you've never met), makes me think you either lack experience or you think that how you see medical school is how everyone must see it. Which is scary. And possibly pathological.

Folks who leave medical school when they shouldn't may live to regret it. Check. No one's arguing that.

But folks who stay in medical school when they shouldn't may live to regret it too. If you haven't met any bitter-azz doctors who wish they hadn't gone into medicine, you haven't met many doctors.

 

[sideways]

The fact that you think leaving medical school is always the worst decision for anyone in any circumstance (including for a dude you've never met), makes me think you either lack experience or you think that how you see medical school is how everyone must see it. Which is scary. And possibly pathological.

Folks who leave medical school when they shouldn't may live to regret it. Check. No one's arguing that.

But folks who stay in medical school when they shouldn't may live to regret it too. If you haven't met any bitter-azz doctors who wish they hadn't gone into medicine, you haven't met many doctors.

I appreciate your e-diagnosis, but there's another side of the coin. If what I say resonates with the OP and changes his mind, I save him years of heartache. If it doesn't and he truly wants out, no harm no foul.

It's about rubbing someone's face in a potential reality. Jesus H.

 

[Mister T]

I appreciate your e-diagnosis, but there's another side of the coin. If what I say resonates with the OP and changes his mind, I save him years of heartache. If it doesn't and he truly wants out, no harm no foul.

It's about rubbing someone's face in a potential reality. Jesus H.

People on this forum don't have a concept of long term planning, or a basic sense of economics. IN fact, it's well known that they are pretty terrible when it comes to money.

But regardless, you are completely right, I believe that the issue isn't that the OP wants to continue or not, it's that he failed multiple times and that he probably won't be able to continue through 3rd year and he knows that the chances are very slim.

Or he's filthy rich, in which case it doesn't really matter then.

 

[Bones DO]

Man I wish I was allowed to repeat a year...as you think on this decision, realize not everywhere is so "understanding"!

 

[Folet50]

But regardless, you are completely right, I believe that the issue isn't that the OP wants to continue or not, it's that he failed multiple times and that he probably won't be able to continue through 3rd year and he knows that the chances are very slim.

Or he's filthy rich, in which case it doesn't really matter then.

That is a concern. I don't know if it is 100% where the military will say no, absolutely not. I've learned that things concerning the military in my admittedly limited experience, are never 100%. There might be some way to continue with HPSP should I be allowed to repeat the 2nd year... maybe like a fraction of a percent. 😉

Even then at this point I would question my ability to pass licensing exams. I think I could pass boards. But the school councilor wants to meet with me to explore reasons why I did poorly. I can look back and fret over what I did and didn't do. Maybe if I studied for an extra hour I'd have just barely passed the test? Maybe if I skimmed this article one more time I'd have gotten the question right?

Regrets are something I don't like to do because they're ultimately pointless. I know some are very uptight and Type A's and will constantly regret things but I'm quite laid back and sort of accept things as they happen. And I don't want to sound like I am just brushing this away... there is no point stomping around my house and curling in a ball and crying because that's not very productive.

Well, hopefully there IS something I can do to at least get some more time to think. If I'm even allowed.

If I'm not then it is time to move on. If I can serve it out as an officer in whatever then I'm gonna make sure I do the best damn job I have. Regretting medical school, being bitter, and doing whatever job I get- even if its a lame bitch job- is not a healthy way to move on.

Anyway this has actually be very helpful to hear many differing opinions on the situation and I very much appreciate it. I'll also post more when I find out what is going to happen so if this unfortunately happens to someone else (I pray it doesn't) there'll be some reference. Stuff tends to work out in the end, even after set backs, so I'm optimistic.