Advice for IMG student

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chrispobl

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Hello fellow medical students, my name is Christian and I am currently a 4th year medical student in Mexico. I am interested in doing my residency in the U.S. and I am just about ready to take step 1 of the USMLE. I would greatly appreciate it if any of you could recommend some residency programs for Emergency Medicine. I have been doing some research and I have been told that Johns Hopkins, Yale, and University of Washington have good programs. It might be a little to early to worry about residency positions, as I am 2 years away from graduating and taking part 2 of the test, however, I just want to be aware of the opportunities available overseas.

I am also interested in pursuing a PhD in Biomedical Sciences, however, I am not sure if I should do it before my residency or after. Again, it might be too early, but I would really like it if you can share some of your thoughts with me.

Thank you very much in advance for your help and Happy Easter! ( I might be a bit late :) )

Best,

Christian
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In the chance you are serious, your chances of getting an Emergency Medicine residency are awful, and are likely only going to get worse. IMG's typically aren't even considered unless they've made ground breaking advances in their fields at the "top institutions" you've listed.

Data: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

Take a look at table 2. Out of 1668 Emergency medicine spots, only about 100 went to IMG's, and of those 100 more than 70% went to U.S. Citizens at what are likely lower-tier institutes. I fully expect emergency medicine to become more competitive, with less IMG's matching. My advice is that you take a look at the new match numbers from "Charting Outcomes" that will likely come out later this year, and use the previous version to follow trends. Then apply to something where your numbers and experience may make you competitive.
 
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chrispobl said:
Hello fellow medical students, my name is Christian and I am currently a 4th year medical student in Mexico. I am interested in doing my residency in the U.S. and I am just about ready to take step 1 of the USMLE. I would greatly appreciate it if any of you could recommend some residency programs for Emergency Medicine. I have been doing some research and I have been told that Johns Hopkins, Yale, and University of Washington have good programs. It might be a little to early to worry about residency positions, as I am 2 years away from graduating and taking part 2 of the test, however, I just want to be aware of the opportunities available overseas.

I am also interested in pursuing a PhD in Biomedical Sciences, however, I am not sure if I should do it before my residency or after. Again, it might be too early, but I would really like it if you can share some of your thoughts with me.

Thank you very much in advance for your help and Happy Easter! ( I might be a bit late :) )

Best,

Christian
Click to expand...

IMGs have a lot of trouble getting residency in the US, particularly in specialties which are currently popular (as EM is) so you shouldn't really be worried about what are the "good" programs. If your goal us to practice in the US, you would need to score well on the steps and then apply to numerous programs in predominantly noncompetitive fields and hope some community hole in the wall wants you. The programs you listed are going to be miles above what you have a shot at. Happy Easter.
 
Law2Doc said:
If your goal us to practice in the US, you would need to score well on the steps and then apply to numerous programs in predominantly noncompetitive fields and hope some community hole in the wall wants you.
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Watch your tone. Around 25% of the docs in the US are foreign trained - often working in primary care and in areas that would otherwise not have a doctor. They deserve your respect.

With that said, I (being a Scandinavian FMG) matched into a categorical neurology program at a good university, wouldn't call that a "community hole in the wall". Anything is possible if you are smart enough to realize what is needed to succeed in whatever field you choose.

Granted, OP doesn't display much realism in his initial post.
 
EuroDoc said:
Watch your tone. Around 25% of the docs in the US are foreign trained - often working in primary care and in areas that would otherwise not have a doctor. They deserve your respect.

With that said, I (being a Scandinavian FMG) matched into a categorical neurology program at a good university, wouldn't call that a "community hole in the wall". Anything is possible if you are smart enough to realize what is needed to succeed in whatever field you choose.

Granted, OP doesn't display much realism in his initial post.
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We're all speaking as if this is not a trolling, which it likely is and therefore we are giving him exactly what he wants but to just address the question at hand...

He's not being disrespectful he's being truthful. Foreign medical grads historically have to be pretty competitive to get a US residency. This is only going to get worse. MUCH WORSE.

US grads get first dibs on all programs, let alone Harvard, Yale...and whatnot, and there are increasingly more US grads every year. IMGs had a hard time finding anything even in the SOAP this year and it will only continue to get more difficult. (as noted above check out the NRMP charting stats)

Again, we're not being disrespectful. You are all probably really good docs, and would succeed in any of the residency programs here, you just get pushed out because most...scratch that...pretty much all programs prefer the homegrown grads and there just aren't many spots for anyone else.

PS how's my tone?
 
EuroDoc said:
Watch your tone. Around 25% of the docs in the US are foreign trained - often working in primary care and in areas that would otherwise not have a doctor. They deserve your respect.

With that said, I (being a Scandinavian FMG) matched into a categorical neurology program at a good university, wouldn't call that a "community hole in the wall". Anything is possible if you are smart enough to realize what is needed to succeed in whatever field you choose.

Granted, OP doesn't display much realism in his initial post.
Click to expand...

I'm not disrespecting him, just suggesting that he's being unrealistic. If he wants a US residency he's going to have to score well and focus on the noncompetitive places. While you didn't end up at a community hole in the wall, you are being disingenuous if you are suggesting that lot of IMGs don't. You are the lottery winner who gets annoyed when people tell others to save their money because the odds are bad. That's not disrespect, thats reality.
 
Alright, thank you all for your honest opinions. I mean, the whole point of me posting my concerns is for me to be more aware of what the challenges will be. You see, here in Mexico, and I am sure anywhere else in the world, we hear a lot about the US being one of the most IMG "friendly" countries in the world and what not, which by what I am reading is misleading. If I mentioned Yale, Hopkins, etc, it's because they are the only ones I know of. I guess I will look at the chart you provided for me to see which fields are less competitive. My only question is, which schools are more realistic for me to consider, If you know any? That why I have somewhere to start, If Yale and Hopkins are too overreaching. What about my PhD question? So do you recommend before or after residency?

I am not exactly sure what "trolling" is, but I am surprised at the fact that most of you thought I was not being serious. Out of all of the forums I found, this seemed to be the most serious one,which is why I am here. I guess I am just ignorant to the situation, but I assure you my intentions where not to make you lose your time. I do thank you for your comments though, and I hope I didn't offend anyone.
 
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chrispobl said:
Alright, thank you all for your honest opinions. I mean, the whole point of me posting my concerns is for me to be more aware of what the challenges will be. You see, here in Mexico, and I am sure anywhere else in the world, we hear a lot about the US being one of the most IMG "friendly" countries in the world and what not, which by what I am reading is misleading. If I mentioned Yale, Hopkins, etc, it's because they are the only ones I know of. I guess I will look at the chart you provided for me to see which fields are less competitive. My only question is, which schools are more realistic for me to consider, If you know any? That why I have somewhere to start, If Yale and Hopkins are too overreaching. What about my PhD question? So do you recommend before or after residency?
Click to expand...

US is indeed the most IMG friendly country in the world. If you want to work in, for example, Italy, you can't get your license unless you are an italian citizen. By the virtue of allowing doctors to work here on visa, the US is already really open to IMG's compared to other countries.
 
chrispobl said:
Hello fellow medical students, my name is Christian and I am currently a 4th year medical student in Mexico. I am interested in doing my residency in the U.S. and I am just about ready to take step 1 of the USMLE. I would greatly appreciate it if any of you could recommend some residency programs for Emergency Medicine. I have been doing some research and I have been told that Johns Hopkins, Yale, and University of Washington have good programs. It might be a little to early to worry about residency positions, as I am 2 years away from graduating and taking part 2 of the test, however, I just want to be aware of the opportunities available overseas.

I am also interested in pursuing a PhD in Biomedical Sciences, however, I am not sure if I should do it before my residency or after. Again, it might be too early, but I would really like it if you can share some of your thoughts with me.

Thank you very much in advance for your help and Happy Easter! ( I might be a bit late :) )

Best,

Christian
Click to expand...

:lame:
 
Law2Doc said:
I'm not disrespecting him, just suggesting that he's being unrealistic. If he wants a US residency he's going to have to score well and focus on the noncompetitive places. While you didn't end up at a community hole in the wall, you are being disingenuous if you are suggesting that lot of IMGs don't. You are the lottery winner who gets annoyed when people tell others to save their money because the odds are bad. That's not disrespect, thats reality.
Click to expand...

I've never denied that

- Odds are against FMG's/IMG's

- FMG's/IMG's often do primary care, earn lower salaries, end up in less popular specialties

- Odds are going to get worse (more US grads coming out)

Perhaps due to some of the anti-FMG/IMG remarks I heard during my interview tour (mostly directed towards Indian/Pakistani and Souther American), I was slightly annoyed by your less-than-constructive critique. I do realize you were not being disrespectful. Let's bury it here...

Back OT, EM residency at any institution (even the least desirable) is going to be a long shot, but with step scores >250, US LOR's in ER, research etc, you have a shot at some of the lower tier programs (forget about Harvard unless you make strong personal connections there). Just don't kid yourself that it's going to be a cake walk. Perhaps a more safe bet would be FM/psych/peds, so think long and hard about what specialties you can be happy in.

Good luck.

Btw, a site like **** might be more relevant for board prep advice compared to SDN.
 
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chrispobl said:
Hello fellow medical students, my name is Christian and I am currently a 4th year medical student in Mexico. I am interested in doing my residency in the U.S. and I am just about ready to take step 1 of the USMLE. I would greatly appreciate it if any of you could recommend some residency programs for Emergency Medicine. I have been doing some research and I have been told that Johns Hopkins, Yale, and University of Washington have good programs. It might be a little to early to worry about residency positions, as I am 2 years away from graduating and taking part 2 of the test, however, I just want to be aware of the opportunities available overseas.

I am also interested in pursuing a PhD in Biomedical Sciences, however, I am not sure if I should do it before my residency or after. Again, it might be too early, but I would really like it if you can share some of your thoughts with me.

Thank you very much in advance for your help and Happy Easter! ( I might be a bit late :) )

Best,

Christian
Click to expand...

EM is a fairly new specialty so it's a little tough to quantify what are the "best" EM programs but in general the best ones have either affiliations with/rotations at an academic center or are located at an academic center; usually having a trauma center or well staffed trauma department is a good idea, and a place with a lot of underserved/noncompliant population is probably good for training in general.

I think you need to read up on the residency process in general; you seem extremely naive with regards to what is required or involved. It's VERY difficult for IMGs to match residency positions in the US as it were, and EM has become a reasonably competitive residency due to lifestyle/pay/increasing interest in the field - this year there was only one or two unmatched categorical EM spots. Hopkins, Yale, and UWash are among the most competitive residency programs in almost every specialty - realistically as an IMG you do not stand a good chance of matching in those programs at all. However, it does not shut you out of academic programs as a whole, although it's becoming much tougher as IMGs to match residency in the US every year.

If you want to pursue your PhD it may actually make you more competitive for residency; however, the best thing to do is blow your step 1 and step 2 out of the water with extremely high scores, and stay at the top of your class. After that, excellent clinical evaluations, US clinical experience/rotations (NOT observerships), and strong research will help you match a good EM residency, even if it's not Hopkins, Yale, or UWash.
 
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chrispobl said:
I am not exactly sure what "trolling" is, but I am surprised at the fact that most of you thought I was not being serious. Out of all of the forums I found, this seemed to be the most serious one,which is why I am here. I guess I am just ignorant to the situation, but I assure you my intentions where not to make you lose your time. I do thank you for your comments though, and I hope I didn't offend anyone.
Click to expand...

You may well be serious, but damn if that quote isn't ripped word for word from the troll handbook. 2+ years from now, unless trends change, you will have a next to no chance of matching into an EM program; you will have no chance, literally zero, for the programs you specifically mentioned. But best of luck, either in rickrolling this thread or matching into an ACGME program.
 
ArcGurren said:
If you want to pursue your PhD it may actually make you more competitive for residency; however, the best thing to do is blow your step 1 and step 2 out of the water with extremely high scores, and stay at the top of your class. After that, excellent clinical evaluations, US clinical experience/rotations (NOT observerships), and strong research will help you match a good EM residency, even if it's not Hopkins, Yale, or UWash.
Click to expand...

Regardless of OP trolling or not:

I respectfully disagree with this. For IMGs, my impression is that the sooner they apply out of medical school, the better chance they have. A gap in clinical work must always be explained. For a predominantly clinical field like EM, they will look at a PhD after Medical school as someone becoming 'rusty' clinically and thus less desirable. Furthermore, some may look at is as a lack of decisiveness unless one can REALLY coherently nail down how they will combine their research career with clinical EM opposed to "Hey, I couldn't really match into residency so I took the PhD route, then I decided that it was tough to get a crappy low paying research job, so now I'm back to get a residency". I'm not saying that is what the intention in this case is, but it is possible that it will be perceived that way.

Agree with the rest of what was said concerning Steps, clinical work, etc.
 
chrispobl said:
Hello fellow medical students, my name is Christian and I am currently a 4th year medical student in Mexico. I am interested in doing my residency in the U.S. and I am just about ready to take step 1 of the USMLE. I would greatly appreciate it if any of you could recommend some residency programs for Emergency Medicine. I have been doing some research and I have been told that Johns Hopkins, Yale, and University of Washington have good programs. It might be a little to early to worry about residency positions, as I am 2 years away from graduating and taking part 2 of the test, however, I just want to be aware of the opportunities available overseas.

I am also interested in pursuing a PhD in Biomedical Sciences, however, I am not sure if I should do it before my residency or after. Again, it might be too early, but I would really like it if you can share some of your thoughts with me.

Thank you very much in advance for your help and Happy Easter! ( I might be a bit late :) )

Best,

Christian
Click to expand...

What is this sea you speak of?
 
EM has become much more popular as of late which is bad news for IMGs. No thanks to that program on the televisions "ER."

Best,
E. Bernays
 
Law2Doc said:
The show ER was already waning in popularity before the specialty got popular. Shift work is what people are finding appealing.
Click to expand...

A PD told me differently. Could be wrong though.

Best,
E. Bernays
 
Edward Bernays said:
A PD told me differently. Could be wrong though.

Best,
E. Bernays
Click to expand...

PDs aren't always in tune with what young people are watching. ER show was it's most popular in the late 1990s. The EM specialty has only had this heightened level of popularity in the past handful of years, over a decade later. What has changed? Shift work.
 
chrispobl said:
My only question is, which schools are more realistic for me to consider, If you know any? That why I have somewhere to start, If Yale and Hopkins are too overreaching. What about my PhD question? So do you recommend before or after residency?
Click to expand...

For EM? For a FMG, the best advice I can give you about where to apply is "all of them." And you'll need stellar board scores, and multiple rotations at US EM programs so you can get SLORs, just to get enough interviews to have a decent chance of matching. Even then, I'd still suggest applying in a backup specialty.

And a PhD doesn't help much when applying in EM. Ask me how I know. :lame:
 
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Alright, well even if most of you think I am trolling, which I am not, I am just naive like most of you suggested, I am really grateful for your honesty on what the situation is. I like EM, but now that I see what the situation is for IMGs, I will apply to other less competitive programs. I like pediatrics too so maybe I will have a better chance at that. I will work on getting better USMLE 1 and 2 scores, so I will postpone on taking them until next year to prepare more and I will look for US clinical experience ASAP. Maybe my school could help me out with that. Like I said, thanks for the help, I needed to know things because the way I was going, I was probably never going to do my residency in the US. What is SOAP by the way?? I have been hearing a lot about SOAP and I would like to know more. Thanks
 
Law2Doc said:
The show ER was already waning in popularity before the specialty got popular. Shift work is what people are finding appealing.
Click to expand...

That and $$$$$$$. EM gets really good pay per minute worked. I mean it's a grind but still $200/hr in high demand areas with shift work and no call is a pretty good gig if you can handle the patient population.
 
There are new EM residencies starting every year, along with the ever growing need for boarded EM physicians. There are several resaons for EM's current popularity, as stated above shift work seems to be popular with this generation, and there are a lot of MDs scoring 220 on Step 1.
 
xrevision said:
In the chance you are serious, your chances of getting an Emergency Medicine residency are awful, and are likely only going to get worse. IMG's typically aren't even considered unless they've made ground breaking advances in their fields at the "top institutions" you've listed.

Data: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

Take a look at table 2. Out of 1668 Emergency medicine spots, only about 100 went to IMG's, and of those 100 more than 70% went to U.S. Citizens at what are likely lower-tier institutes. I fully expect emergency medicine to become more competitive, with less IMG's matching. My advice is that you take a look at the new match numbers from "Charting Outcomes" that will likely come out later this year, and use the previous version to follow trends. Then apply to something where your numbers and experience may make you competitive.
Click to expand...

The Caribbean student doing neurosurgery at Brown seems to think otherwise. Shoot for the stars buddy! Don't let the downers tell you you can't do it. Rock your boards, work harder than everyone around you, and you can do whatever you want to do.
 
je355804 said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackass

And you're right, discouragement is always the best policy when dealing with people's future. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Most people work under the assumption that if you post around here, you're looking for honest thought and opinions, maybe even the odd fact or two, and that if you're just looking for encouragement you call your mom. By all means, counter what you consider jackassery with...jackassery. Because that has always worked on SDN.
 
Pons Asinorum said:
Most people work under the assumption that if you post around here, you're looking for honest thought and opinions, maybe even the odd fact or two, and that if you're just looking for encouragement you call your mom. By all means, counter what you consider jackassery with...jackassery. Because that has always worked on SDN.
Click to expand...

If it ain't broke don't fix it, right?
 
je355804 said:
The Caribbean student doing neurosurgery at Brown seems to think otherwise. Shoot for the stars buddy! Don't let the downers tell you you can't do it. Rock your boards, work harder than everyone around you, and you can do whatever you want to do.
Click to expand...

The numerous people who posted in the SOAP thread this year would respectfully disagree. Just because we all know a guy who knows a guy who got their dream residency despite being an IMG, does not mean that any random IMG can or will be able to do it. Telling people that they can "do whatever they want" is simply disingenuous--someone MIGHT be one of the lucky few who has things break their way, but the odds aren't in their favor.

OP: as others have said, EM is becoming an increasingly competitive specialty, especially for IMGs. Absolutely the most important thing you can do is just blow step 1 and step 2 out of the water, as that can get your foot in the door; similarly, if you score poorly, you can essentially kiss your chances goodbye. Try and get an away rotation, preferably two, so that you can get good letters. Research and a PhD can't hurt, but as others have noted I would really try to graduate and apply ASAP, as the outlook for IMGs figures to get worse as new US med schools and increasing graduating class sizes leaves fewer seats for IMGs. Apply broadly to a mix of community programs and some IMG-friendly acadmic programs (take a look at their current residents, if they have any IMGs on their roster you'll know they are at least willing to consider IMGs, so put them on your list). Finally, no matter how competitive you think you are... strongly consider applying to a less competitive specialty as a backup (ie IM, FM, neurology, etc), as there are simply no guarantees and you don't want to be stuck in the SOAP.
 
je355804 said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaksauce reply

And you're right, discouragement is always the best policy when dealing with people's future. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Because we all know how often Caribbean grads match into Ivy League Neurosurgery.... :thumbdown:
Hey breaux, this isn't "ValueMD". That sugar coated, disingenuous drivel don't fly here on SDN. :rolleyes:
Did the DeVry marketing department at AUA tell you to post this? Good luck SOAPing next year. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
je355804 said:
The Caribbean student doing neurosurgery at Brown seems to think otherwise. Shoot for the stars buddy! Don't let the downers tell you you can't do it. Rock your boards, work harder than everyone around you, and you can do whatever you want to do.
Click to expand...

Shooting for the stars has associated costs in terms of time, money, and psyche. I have no problem with people doing this after they know the odds. SDN offers the most value when you get the cold hard truth, warts and all. Having a bunch of strangers who aren't there to catch you when you fall telling you "you can do it" when odds are "no you can't" simply isn't helpful.

We all know that mythical Caribbean grad who ended up in X specialty at Y top program, just like we all know a lottery winner or an ugly guy who ended up marrying a supermodel. Hes an outlier. And you know what? If you ever talked to him he'd tell you either that he was absurdly lucky or why you won't likely be able to follow the route he took. His existence shouldn't give you much hope.
 
After spending much of my life in public relations I learned that one best keep their feet firmly planted on the ground rather than in the clouds. I have seen too many good men fall through the cracks of romantic idealism and cloud gazing.

Best,
E. Bernays
 
Two things are striking here, first it's absolutely hilarious watching how worked up some of you are getting about a little encouragement. Second, if you have time in your life to come on a forum and tell some guy who can't match EM (sure it's not easy but it's also not the hardest thing in the world) you obviously have some self-esteem issues. Maybe you should get those checked out first before you come here anymore.

I'm not going to read/post on this thread anymore, so if you would like to continue to tell me how I'm wrong enjoy :) -Changed my mind lol
 
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je355804 said:
Two things are striking here, first it's absolutely hilarious watching how worked up some of you are getting about a little encouragement. Second, if you have time in your life to come on a forum and tell some guy who can't match EM (sure it's not easy but it's also not the hardest thing in the world) you obviously have some self-esteem issues. Maybe you should get those checked out first before you come here anymore.

I'm not going to read/post on this thread anymore, so if you would like to continue to tell me how I'm wrong enjoy :)
Click to expand...

I obviously have some self-esteem issues. And you are acting like an idiot. You're not mad that some have it out for "encouragement", as you call it. You're mad because there have actually been some sound arguments about why "encouragment" might not be the best thing for SDN, and maybe shouldn't be what people come here for, at least in this type of thread. Instead of winning the argument, you whine. Keep rocking on man.
 
je355804 said:
Two things are striking here, first it's absolutely hilarious watching how worked up some of you are getting about a little encouragement. Second, if you have time in your life to come on a forum and tell some guy who can't match EM (sure it's not easy but it's also not the hardest thing in the world) you obviously have some self-esteem issues. Maybe you should get those checked out first before you come here anymore.

I'm not going to read/post on this thread anymore, so if you would like to continue to tell me how I'm wrong enjoy :)
Click to expand...

bitter DeVry executive alert
 
je355804 said:
Here's another more realistic list for you all. Again OP, keep your head in the books and you will get there. If you notice there were about 30 EM matches just from this one school.

https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2013/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1
Click to expand...

I thought you were done in this thread? Quick, tell me how many of those 30 in the link you posted are FMG and how many are IMG? Methinks I know the answer without knowing the actual answer.
 
je355804 said:
Here's another more realistic list for you all. Again OP, keep your head in the books and you will get there. If you notice there were about 30 EM matches just from this one school.

https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2013/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1
Click to expand...

With HOW many in the class applying/yr, man? Com'on, be real with the guy instead of trying to be the a**hat that gives people false hope only to get hurt later with unnecessary costs in both time and money (LOTS of money). OP, applying to some low-end EM programs is fine (hey, you never know) but you're going to want to have A TON of least competitive programs in the least competitive specialties on your rank list as well and go to EVERY interview offered. The numbers honestly make me a little :scared: as a US MD student at a solid mid-range school wanting to do EM (and as someone with a background in EMS and research in trauma). Good luck.
 
Pons Asinorum said:
I thought you were done in this thread? Quick, tell me how many of those 30 in the link you posted are FMG and how many are IMG? Methinks I know the answer without knowing the actual answer.
Click to expand...

They're probably all americans I would assume? I don't know of many caribs that aren't american. Maybe a few canadians.
 
je355804 said:
They're probably all americans I would assume? I don't know of many caribs that aren't american. Maybe a few canadians.
Click to expand...

OP holds neither US or Canadian citizenship as far as my cursory pass back through this thread can tell. OP has done no clinical rotations or work inside the US. Don't you see how that affects his odds and how it makes your posting the SGU match list moot?
 
Pons Asinorum said:
OP holds neither US or Canadian citizenship as far as my cursory pass back through this thread can tell. OP has done no clinical rotations or work inside the US. Don't you see how that affects his odds and how it makes your posting the SGU match list moot?
Click to expand...

I actually know several americans who attended medical school in Mexico. In fact, they did very well in the match. I just assumed that the OP was also an american, perhaps I'm wrong.

Also, I believe that many Mexican schools do their rotations differently. As I remember they do something like 4 years in Mexico then they can set up rotations in the US.
 
je355804 said:
I actually know several americans who attended medical school in Mexico. In fact, they did very well in the match. I just assumed that the OP was also an american, perhaps I'm wrong.

Also, I believe that many Mexican schools do their rotations differently. As I remember they do something like 4 years in Mexico then they can set up rotations in the US.
Click to expand...

I have no desire to keep pointing out that your counterfactuals don't matter to the OPs circumstances. We just have to agree to disagree.
 
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