Advice for pre-meds with a criminal record

[TheOhioState]

Hey all,
As someone with experience in medical licensure, do not ever think you can hide misdemeanors or felonies from the medical community. Even if you have the charges expunged or sealed, it will come back to you full circle one day. Often times, the medical schools themselves do not have the authority to open up sealed or expunged records. You could lie on your application and they may never find out about it. However, once you apply for a license, the state boards DO have the authority to open up ANY records, therefore it is in your best interest to tell them about your offense. Everyone knows lying to a licensing board is a no-no, because you will immediately (and possibly permanently) be denied a license. But here's the kicker. If you lied on your medical school application (omitted your offense or outright lied about it), but then disclosed the record to the licensing board, they may (but not always) contact the school where you received your degree and see what you told them on your application. If you lied, guess what happens next? The school has the ability to RESCIND your MD degree, even after you have graduated. Now you are 200k+ in debt, with no MD, and no opportunity of ever being a doctor (once you are dismissed from school or have a rescinded degree, good luck getting into another school). In short, YOU'RE screwed. Now, there is a chance that you could get through the whole process by lying. Many times, expunged or sealed records require a court order to open. However, is it worth it? Is it worth trying to hide something that likely would not even keep you from gaining admission, especially when the risk is this high? My advice to all with criminal records applying to medical school is BE HONEST. You do not want this to bite you in the a** several years down the road. This will not only ruin your medical career, it very may well ruin your LIFE. Sure, some med schools will look at a criminal record as a huge red flag. But others will not. The adcomms understand that we all make stupid decisions when we are young, it's part of growing up and figuring out what is important in your life. The critical part is to communicate is what you learned from the experience. If anything, the experience may add another dimension of your character that you were not able to show elsewhere on your application. As long as the behavior has ceased, I highly doubt it will keep you from being a doctor if you really want it. I'm talking misdemeanors. If you have violent felonies or sex crimes, then you may have to reconsider your career path. However, it is not worth trying to hide things because someone will be checking into your background a TON over the course of your career. That is all, and good luck to you!

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[EZR]

Just for clarity. Definitely do NOT lie. However, you should NOT reveal a case that entered diversion/expungement IF the medical school application explicitly states not to report a sealed/expunged case.

Most medical school applications state that you do NOT need to report sealed or expunged cases.

Take note that the word "conviction" means you had to actually go through a trial and were in fact CONVICTED. If instead, you were somehow entered into a pre-trial diversion, you were only charged but NOT convicted - and in these situations, you are more than likely allowed to get your charge expunged.

 

[NontradCA]

Lawyer up in these situations. Don't take advice from the Interwebz

 

[TheOhioState]

Just for clarity. Definitely do NOT lie. However, you should NOT reveal a case that entered diversion/expungement IF the medical school application explicitly states not to report a sealed/expunged case.

Most medical school applications state that you do NOT need to report sealed or expunged cases.

Take note that the word "conviction" means you had to actually go through a trial and were in fact CONVICTED. If instead, you were somehow entered into a pre-trial diversion, you were only charged but NOT convicted - and in these situations, you are more than likely allowed to get your charge expunged.

True. The primary application through AMCAS says not to report expunged or dismissed records, but many of the secondary applications I have seen often ask if you were ever charged or convicted. Also, each state has its own definition of expungement. Often times, expunging the record seals it from public view, but does not set aside or reverse the conviction. Other times it does reverse the conviction. Even if you were charged but never convicted, failing to disclose it to the question, "were you ever charged or convicted..." is still lying, because you were charged. It just does not seem worth it to get caught up in legal technicalities, because many will still view it as being dishonest although one was "technically" correct.

 

[Gauss44]

I like how TheOhioState made the distinction between being "charged" and being "convicted." There's a BIG difference.

I really don't understand why they ask about being, "charged." That just means that someone was accused of a crime. If I get that question on a secondary, I will honestly let them know that I have NOT been "charged" but I know people that have, and have learned that every-single-one of them is NOT guilty, bad, sketchy, or evil. If I ever get a patient who is an inmate, I will treat him or her with the same respect and provide the same good care I would for anyone else.

Even including that question seems to send the wrong message to future doctors IMO.

 

[TheOhioState]

I like how TheOhioState made the distinction between being "charged" and being "convicted." There's a BIG difference.

I really don't understand why they ask about being, "charged." That just means that someone was accused of a crime. If I get that question on a secondary, I will honestly let them know that I have NOT been "charged" but I know people that have, and have learned that every-single-one of them is NOT guilty, bad, sketchy, or evil. If I ever get a patient who is an inmate, I will treat him or her with the same respect and provide the same good care I would for anyone else.

Even including that question seems to send the wrong message to future doctors IMO.

Yeah, I think it's really stupid. Asking about a conviction is fair game because that means you were actually found guilty and what not, but being charged doesn't really mean anything. I think the schools are now just asking very specifically-worded questions so they can have full disclosure about your past, especially with the threat of a recinded degree. Personally, I think if charges/convictions are expunged or sealed, they shouldn't be considered because you resolved it with the legal system already. It forces to you to bring up your past over and over again, and something stupid you did as a young person ends up following you around for the rest of your life. Convictions that are not expunged or sealed, however, are a whole different story. Those should be considered if they are serious crimes (serious crimes cannot usually be expunged or sealed anyways), but I am not a fan of the entire stigma that comes along with having a minor criminal record. You had a possession of marijuana 4 years ago when you were a dumb college freshman. So what? Is that really going to prevent you from being a great doctor? There will be many patients who have drug problems. Are we really going to sit there and scoff at them because of this? Or can we have some compassion and ability to relate to them because we have experienced a similar situation ourselves? I think only our merits should be considered for getting into medicine (and serious criminal offenses), and if you have already resolved your legal issues with the justice system, then let it rest there.

 

[thefritz]

Eh, I know somebody who had multiple reckless driving offenses during medical school for driving 100 mph+. Technically a class I misdemeanor. You think he's checking that box on ERAS that says he has been convicted of a crime? No, in his mind they are just traffic offenses/speeding tickets. Easier for him to not check the box and if anybody brings it up later just say oh I just had some speeding tickets, what's the big deal. Rather than check the box and have the application thrown out by 90% of programs.

 

[TheOhioState]

Eh, I know somebody who had multiple reckless driving offenses during medical school for driving 100 mph+. Technically a class I misdemeanor. You think he's checking that box on ERAS that says he has been convicted of a crime? No, in his mind they are just traffic offenses/speeding tickets. Easier for him to not check the box and if anybody brings it up later just say oh I just had some speeding tickets, what's the big deal. Rather than check the box and have the application thrown out by 90% of programs.

It's definitely not something that should prevent him from getting a residency (that's my opinion only). But, who knows if it will come to bite him in the a** later. The many background checks will definitely find those offenses and then its on the discretion of his program and the licensing board what to do about it. I know that neither likes to find surprises, but since they are not serious crimes, who knows what the outcome will be. Lying in the short run may bring long-term consequences that supercede what full disclosure in the first place would have entailed, especially because that could be considered risky behavior that endangers others. If it had been prior to med school, however, I'm sure it would have been a non-issue altogether.

 

[elektroshok]

Eh, I know somebody who had multiple reckless driving offenses during medical school for driving 100 mph+. Technically a class I misdemeanor. You think he's checking that box on ERAS that says he has been convicted of a crime? No, in his mind they are just traffic offenses/speeding tickets. Easier for him to not check the box and if anybody brings it up later just say oh I just had some speeding tickets, what's the big deal. Rather than check the box and have the application thrown out by 90% of programs.

If it's a misdemeanor he definitely should list it. If they find out at any time during residency he lied he can be dismissed from the training program.

It's not a big deal so why not just list it and avoid potential hardship down the road

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

[aspiring20]

thanks for this post.

i dont have any criminal records (no arrests or anything else), but i do have a minor institutional action (disciplinary record) from undergrad. it is very minor and does not involve alcohols, drugs, violence, or ANY criminal behavior.

of course, i will/have to disclose this on my med school applications, but i am wondering if i have to keep disclosing a minor disciplinary violation from undergrad when it comes to residencies and licensure. and soon, this minor disciplinary incident will be destroyed from my school's records.

so do residencies and licensure apps ask about minor disciplinary issues from college (not even from med school)?

 

[thefritz]

It's definitely not something that should prevent him from getting a residency (that's my opinion only). But, who knows if it will come to bite him in the a** later. The many background checks will definitely find those offenses and then its on the discretion of his program and the licensing board what to do about it. I know that neither likes to find surprises, but since they are not serious crimes, who knows what the outcome will be. Lying in the short run may bring long-term consequences that supercede what full disclosure in the first place would have entailed, especially because that could be considered risky behavior that endangers others. If it had been prior to med school, however, I'm sure it would have been a non-issue altogether.

It's a trumped up speeding ticket. Many people who get charged with reckless have no idea that it's a different class of crime than speeding. They just think it costs more, they pay the fine, and have no idea they have a criminal record. My understanding is that this is how he views it. He shrugged at it being a class 1 misdemeanor. I understand that technically he could get in trouble for not disclosing it, but from a risk/reward standpoint here, he might be right that the reward of not disclosing it outweighs the risk of disclosing it. This is of course for a crime like excessive speeding, one where he could easily claim that he had NO IDEA it was a misdemeanor if it ever came up and I would think a lawyer could then, at that point, get that cleared up. It would be completely insane to throw somebody out of residency for a technicality like that, but I'm sure stupider things have happened.

I'm not advocating lying about your criminal record, but simply trying to demonstrate an unusual scenario where pleading the 5th on your app might make sense when common sense indicates that the crime was so minimal that it could easily be forgotten. In fact, I'd bet there are dozens of applicants every year with charges like this who apply who truly are clueless that they actually have a criminal record.

 

[molecularbiolog]

thanks for this post.

i dont have any criminal records (no arrests or anything else), but i do have a minor institutional action (disciplinary record) from undergrad. it is very minor and does not involve alcohols, drugs, violence, or ANY criminal behavior.

of course, i will/have to disclose this on my med school applications, but i am wondering if i have to keep disclosing a minor disciplinary violation from undergrad when it comes to residencies and licensure. and soon, this minor disciplinary incident will be destroyed from my school's records.

so do residencies and licensure apps ask about minor disciplinary issues from college (not even from med school)?

I don't think so! I do not recall seeing it on the ERAS application, but you can check that out yourself. Either way, if you are doing well in medical school, I highly doubt something that occurred that long ago will be an issue whatsoever.

 

[BlueLabel]

.

 

[Tawantinsuyu]

...

 

[freemontie]

Actually THE WHOLE POINT of seeking and being granted an expungement is so that you can legally answer "No" - to any questions about the event to schools or jobs. including being charged. Most states are very specific about this. OP, you are either a very cruel or very stupid person to state your legal opinions on this with such authority.

Note that expungement is not available to everyone. Only 40 states even have expungement programs. And felonies almost always can't be expunged and some misdemeanors can't be expunged. And usually only 1 conviction can be expunged in your lifetime. And usually you have to wait many years after the offense to try to seek expungement. It's not an easy process and it's not a way to "let criminals off the hook". It's there because in a civil society with COLOSSAL arrest/conviction rates compared to other developed countries- we recognize that small mistakes should not ruin a citizen's life and keep him/her from being productive.

Full disclosure- I don't have any record but a good friend of mine does. The most responsible person you'll ever meet. He's got a DUI for sleeping off a night of drinking in his car after he couldn't get a ride home. Because he had been drinking and was in a car with the keys on his person- he was charged. In his state misdemeanor DUIs can't be expunged but because it was a flimsy case it was easily reduced to misdemeanor negligent. In 7 years he will *try* to seek expungement. These are the types of people expungement helps.

 

[CrimsonKing]

...

 

[sandstorm223]

Hey all, potential DO student here. I have a criminal record as well (criminal tresspass), but it too was expunged. Should I check yes or no on the AACOMAS application? I am freaking out because criminal tresspass is a misdemeanor, but the offense occurred when I was 19, a freshman in college. I am now 24, with my record expunged, and have had no further misdemeanors. Should I disclose this one? I don't want to blow my chance at admissions, and honestly why even expunge a record if you still have to disclose it anyway??? PLEASE REPLY with your thoughts and wisdom! I apply for DO schools in a couple weeks.

 

[jl lin]

Consult a lawyer that understands the processes in the state in which the offense/expunging occurred. Make sure he/she truly knows what they are talking about. Pay the money. Talk to the lawyer that processed the expunging and saw it through. Did he do it right? Does he really know what he is taking about?

If it was completed correctly, you may not necessarily have to disclose it. You, however, really have to go back to your lawyer or find one that really understands this process. Hint: some think they do, when they really don't.

Even if you find it's best to disclose it, you can at some point discuss it as well as why and how it was expunged. It will really depend upon the details.

 

[sandstorm223]

Thank you so much for the advice. However, I don't remember having a lawyer! I just went to court and plead a plea in abeyance myself...I never hired a lawyer nor did I employ a public defender. I'm not sure who to go to...would a trip by the local police department be warranted? Or should I speak with some lawyer in town?

 

[jl lin]

Thank you so much for the advice. However, I don't remember having a lawyer! I just went to court and plead a plea in abeyance myself...I never hired a lawyer nor did I employ a public defender. I'm not sure who to go to...would a trip by the local police department be warranted? Or should I speak with some lawyer in town?

OK, well, regardless, you need to go to an attorney that REALLY UNDERSTANDS the process in the state in which it occurred. Pay the money to get his/her two cents. Someone had to process it, and how it was processed could make ALL the difference in the world. In certain states it goes through a lawyer to a judge or judges, and then through the state troopers. It's a long, involved process from what my good friend and trusted lawyer tells me.
The person that said keep copies of paperwork is right. I had referred my lawyer to a few people, and it turned out that he really knew what he was doing. He is a generalist, but he's on the ball. Anyway, it turned out well for them; however, it was an involved process and they told me lawyer kept in contact with them through every step of the process until all paperwork was final and so forth.

So, I am not a lawyer, but I do know that there are legal people that understand the process and any exceptions and caveats, and those that do not. Had a law student post a bunch of things about how it doesn't really work, yada yada. Shared her rantings w/ my lawyer friend/s and they were like, she doesn't know what the hell she is talking about. Then I had to hear them question if she passed the bar on first try, which she did not; but she is not alone on that. She just didn't have a clue what she was talking about.

Sorry to repeat, but once more: Get a lawyer that understands the process in the state in which it occurred--go from there. Good luck!

 

[Goro]

I strongly urge all applicants to check yes. Background checks pull these things up. If you haven't committed a crime of moral turpitude, or are not a repeat offender, and your transgressions are well in the past (> 3 years ago), then you really have nothing to worry about.

Lie on an app, or omit something you're supposed to answer, and you might as well set your app on fire.

And when in doubt, consult a lawyer. Unless some of the posters in this thread would let us know what law school they graduated from?

QUOTE="sandstorm223, post: 16471136, member: 652040"]Hey all, potential DO student here. I have a criminal record as well (criminal tresspass), but it too was expunged. Should I check yes or no on the AACOMAS application? I am freaking out because criminal tresspass is a misdemeanor, but the offense occurred when I was 19, a freshman in college. I am now 24, with my record expunged, and have had no further misdemeanors. Should I disclose this one? I don't want to blow my chance at admissions, and honestly why even expunge a record if you still have to disclose it anyway??? PLEASE REPLY with your thoughts and wisdom! I apply for DO schools in a couple weeks.[/QUOTE]

 

[Camaxtli]

I strongly urge all applicants to check yes. Background checks pull these things up. If you haven't committed a crime of moral turpitude, or are not a repeat offender, and your transgressions are well in the past (> 3 years ago), then you really have nothing to worry about.

Lie on an app, or omit something you're supposed to answer, and you might as well set your app on fire.

And when in doubt, consult a lawyer. Unless some of the posters in this thread would let us know what law school they graduated from?

QUOTE="sandstorm223, post: 16471136, member: 652040"]Hey all, potential DO student here. I have a criminal record as well (criminal tresspass), but it too was expunged. Should I check yes or no on the AACOMAS application? I am freaking out because criminal tresspass is a misdemeanor, but the offense occurred when I was 19, a freshman in college. I am now 24, with my record expunged, and have had no further misdemeanors. Should I disclose this one? I don't want to blow my chance at admissions, and honestly why even expunge a record if you still have to disclose it anyway??? PLEASE REPLY with your thoughts and wisdom! I apply for DO schools in a couple weeks.

[/QUOTE]

 

[GrapesofRath]

The only useful input you'll get in this situation is to consult a lawyer and those who have gone through this situation in the past. The only thing I'll say is I know of someone a couple years ago who had 2 drug related incidents on his record from when he was 18(I believe one ended up being a misdemeanor) and was able to get into an MD School(3.7 GPA 34 MCAT so a good applicant but hardly out of this world). I don't know too much about the details of his criminal situation but I'll say just having a criminal situation probably doesn't eliminate you right then and there from an MD School. But there are tons and tons of other factors in play here that frankly 99% of the SDN community including me have no idea about. Lawyer up, maybe get lucky and find a person or two who have been in the situation you are and see what they have to say, and take it from there.

 

[jl lin]

The OP needs to seek out a lawyer licensed in the particular state, who truly understands what the provisions are for this in the particular state.

What's more, I know the people that had this done and who are licensed practitioners in other states, and it still has not been an issue upon checks, b/c it was processed correctly. If it does come up, they are protected, b/c they can demonstrate that the process had been reviewed, approved of, and completed by all the required, proper persons in the justice/criminal justice system.

Finally, it is not something a person can do over and over. It's pretty much a one-shot deal for a situation in which that black mark would unfairly go against an otherwise law-abiding citizen--or perhaps someone young and foolish. It's not like this is something that can be done in every single case or more than once in most cases.

For the people whom I referred, it was a malicious act against them, and it would have been grossly unfair to have that stain their reputations and work--livelihood. Judges and so forth approved it. If they can review and deem it worthy of expunging, who the heck is anyone else to get annoyed that they don't get to do so? That would defeat it's purpose.

 

[NickNaylor]

In my state at least, when it comes to applying for a training permit/license you are requires to list ALL incidences of you being arrested, charged, and/or convicted for any crime (less crimes that resulted in a punishment less than a fine of $250) - even if those records were sealed, expunged, or whatever other "magic" was enacted to make them go away.

The unfortunate thing for people applying with criminal records - particularly those involving substance related offenses - is that while you may get into medical school, these things will continue to haunt you depending upon the nature of the offense.

 

[sandstorm223]

Thank you all for your input. I will seek a lawyer for his/her counsel. I feel a lot less worried now! I just hope a one-time stupid mistake that I made when I was 19 doesn't ruin my med school prospects!

 

[jl lin]

In my state at least, when it comes to applying for a training permit/license you are requires to list ALL incidences of you being arrested, charged, and/or convicted for any crime (less crimes that resulted in a punishment less than a fine of $250) - even if those records were sealed, expunged, or whatever other "magic" was enacted to make them go away.

The unfortunate thing for people applying with criminal records - particularly those involving substance related offenses - is that while you may get into medical school, these things will continue to haunt you depending upon the nature of the offense.

See, that's the thing. Depends upon the state--and even then folks, even some legal folks don't necessarily understand how it works. True expunging means you have a legal right to answer "no." Of course if you have other stuff on there, well too bad. For that, you must answer "yes." But if properly expunged, through all the particular legal and approved channels, you are granted the RIGHT to state, "No" for that particular incident. But for the billionth time, the devil is in the details. There is absolutely no magic to it. It is a legitimate, legal process; but it DOES NOT apply to everyone or everything. If you don't meet the requirements, someone is stealing your money in telling you you can get it. You have to meet the requirements--eligibility. You have to have all the particulars met in a specific manner over a good year or more, and the process can't be dropped anywhere along the way. That's why you have to have a lawyer that knows what he/she is doing.

 

[ZedsDed]

I strongly urge all applicants to check yes. Background checks pull these things up. If you haven't committed a crime of moral turpitude, or are not a repeat offender, and your transgressions are well in the past (> 3 years ago), then you really have nothing to worry about.

Lie on an app, or omit something you're supposed to answer, and you might as well set your app on fire.

And when in doubt, consult a lawyer. Unless some of the posters in this thread would let us know what law school they graduated from?

QUOTE="sandstorm223, post: 16471136, member: 652040"]Hey all, potential DO student here. I have a criminal record as well (criminal tresspass), but it too was expunged. Should I check yes or no on the AACOMAS application? I am freaking out because criminal tresspass is a misdemeanor, but the offense occurred when I was 19, a freshman in college. I am now 24, with my record expunged, and have had no further misdemeanors. Should I disclose this one? I don't want to blow my chance at admissions, and honestly why even expunge a record if you still have to disclose it anyway??? PLEASE REPLY with your thoughts and wisdom! I apply for DO schools in a couple weeks.

[/QUOTE]
Please define "moral turpitude." Just curious

 

[sandstorm223]

Is criminal trespass considered 'moral turpitude'?

 

[ZedsDed]

Were you wearing pants at the time?

Pretty sure trespassing whilst pantless is a capital crime in Texas

 

[sandstorm223]

The maturity of sdn users is admirable....

 

[Promethean]

Moral Turpitude

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=moral+turpitude

 

[jl lin]

n

Were you wearing pants at the time?

LOL

 

[NickNaylor]

See, that's the thing. Depends upon the state--and even then folks, even some legal folks don't necessarily understand how it works. True expunging means you have a legal right to answer "no." Of course if you have other stuff on there, well too bad. For that, you must answer "yes." But if properly expunged, through all the particular legal and approved channels, you are granted the RIGHT to state, "No" for that particular incident. But for the billionth time, the devil is in the details. There is absolutely no magic to it. It is a legitimate, legal process; but it DOES NOT apply to everyone or everything. If you don't meet the requirements, someone is stealing your money in telling you you can get it. You have to meet the requirements--eligibility. You have to have all the particulars met in a specific manner over a good year or more, and the process can't be dropped anywhere along the way. That's why you have to have a lawyer that knows what he/she is doing.

On my state's application, the instructions specifically state to include any and all incidents, even if they have been expunged. This is just one state, though, and I have no idea how common this requirement is.

 

[jl lin]

On my state's application, the instructions specifically state to include any and all incidents, even if they have been expunged. This is just one state, though, and I have no idea how common this requirement is.

Yea. That is interesting. I'll have to throw that one at my friend/lawyer; but he doesn't practice in IL. Personally, I think it's an idiotic thing to put on an application IF the state has a sound process for expunging. It defeats the purpose of it.

 

[NickNaylor]

Yea. That is interesting. I'll have to throw that one at my friend/lawyer; but he doesn't practice in IL. Personally, I think it's an idiotic thing to put on an application IF the state has a sound process for expunging. It defeats the purpose of it.

Just as a minor point, this is for Texas.

 

[jl lin]

Just as a minor point, this is for Texas.

I'm not sure, but I think different areas define expunging differently; i.e., some define it as sealed and others define it as elimination of the record. Personally, I wouldn't trust any place, person, or system that says a record can be completely eliminated--unless it was on Hilary's server. JK.


In the state to which I have referred, the record is sealed. Now, I believe under certain conditions a government agency can open it w/ a court order. But it would require an extra legal effort, which would get certain attention and would have to be compelling enough to a judge to open it after it was sealed.

So, in theory, if a person does something criminal after the event for which s/he received the legal sealing, and if then there is a compelling reason to open the file, yes. It could be opened. But we have to be reasonable here.

So for some idiotic kid that did something stupid that was w/o any adverse effect on anyone, or a person caught in a distorted, even spiteful situation (such was the situation for those described above), if it was evaluated by state admin/justice people and processed and approved by a judge, and the person has and continues to have no record of question, it doesn't need to be opened. You would have to show just cause to a judge for having it opened.

Legally it is to give people the legal right to state, "no" on such applications, etc. If it were me, I would simply contact my lawyer on that one. B/c if it has been approved as sealed, and it states that the person has the right to say, "NO," given that they have and are not making any other problematic legal records, that's what it states. Either the judge and state's formal provision carries weight or it does not. So, if I checked with my lawyer and reviewed all the paperwork and all was kosher, I would not feel reticent to say, "No." Why? Already stated the reasons in other posts. Paid for it. It was signed by a judge and can prove it.

See, they, the school, for example, has basically the right to ask whatever they want, short of anything that would violate EEOC or the like. It doesn't mean I am necessarily compelled to tell them something that has been legally sealed. The lawyer is much better at explaining this than I am. Legally, you are under no obligation to respond, "yes," if the right process is in place and depending on what it means, legally, by the provisions allowed in the particular state. You had just better be sure it's properly sealed. You also better be sure your record is otherwise squeaky clean.

My lawyer/friend is not in Texas either. I am laughing trying to picture him there. LOL. He'll get a kick out that one over a glass of scotch.

 

[sandstorm223]

Jl lin, law school better be your fallback because you are a boss at legal intricacies.

 

[jl lin]

Here's an example for one state:

"Expungements give the person the legal right to state, even under oath, that the event never occurred. All civil disabilities associated with the conviction are eliminated. However, expunged records must still be recited in certain situations. These situations include applications for employment with a law enforcement agency, applications for employment in the judicial system, and applications for a subsequent expungement."

 

[gyngyn]

On my state's application, the instructions specifically state to include any and all incidents, even if they have been expunged. This is just one state, though, and I have no idea how common this requirement is.

Common.

 

[jl lin]

Jl lin, law school better be your fallback because you are a boss at legal intricacies.

Thanks, but not nearly as interesting as medicine. Plus, my lawyer friend would try to talk me out of it like he tried to talk his superstar daughter--who didn't listen and double-majored in grad school--Masters in SW and JD. She's a total workhorse too. He makes a good living; but not super great, b/c he has his own practice and likes it like that.

 

[jl lin]

[Security clearance
When applying for a state professional license or job that is considered a public office or high security (such as security guard, law enforcement, or related to national security), you must confess that you have an expunged conviction or else be denied clearance by the DOJ. There is no post-conviction relief available in the federal system, other than a presidential pardon.]-Wikipedia

So, now you get more into the gory details in that there is a difference between expunging/sealing a dismissed arrest record versus an actual conviction (especially a felony). In fact, depending, the later may not be allowed at all. This is why people need to go to an experienced, reputable attorney licensed in the state of the offense. The devil is in the details. You'd have to know what those exact details are, and what the law says about what, if anything, can be done. Can't emphasize enough the importance of getting to the right lawyer for something like this. The details of the bogus complaint listed and the arrest record expungement in the example I gave above will be very different from other situations.

 

[mehc012]

It's a trumped up speeding ticket. Many people who get charged with reckless have no idea that it's a different class of crime than speeding. They just think it costs more, they pay the fine, and have no idea they have a criminal record. My understanding is that this is how he views it. He shrugged at it being a class 1 misdemeanor. I understand that technically he could get in trouble for not disclosing it, but from a risk/reward standpoint here, he might be right that the reward of not disclosing it outweighs the risk of disclosing it. This is of course for a crime like excessive speeding, one where he could easily claim that he had NO IDEA it was a misdemeanor if it ever came up and I would think a lawyer could then, at that point, get that cleared up. It would be completely insane to throw somebody out of residency for a technicality like that, but I'm sure stupider things have happened.

I'm not advocating lying about your criminal record, but simply trying to demonstrate an unusual scenario where pleading the 5th on your app might make sense when common sense indicates that the crime was so minimal that it could easily be forgotten. In fact, I'd bet there are dozens of applicants every year with charges like this who apply who truly are clueless that they actually have a criminal record.

I always have a hard time with people not understanding reckless...it's pretty damn simple, and it's really not treated like 'just a trumped up speeding ticket' by some states. But then, I did learn to drive in VA, a state known for going ape**** over speeding (to the point where some of their speeding laws have been overturned for being abusive). If your friend had been in the Commonwealth state, he would almost certainly lost his license and likely would have ended up in jail for 100mph. Plus, of course, the permanent record he already has (class 1 misdemeanor, same as things like abuse)...and it would be a lot harder to sell 'I did not know it was a criminal offense' when you've spent over a week in jail for something.

 

[alearobinson]

What about an arrest for petit larceny? Plead not guilty, was not convicted, and case was expunged. How bad would this be and should it be disclosed to schools? Thanks in advance

 

[ATPsynthase123]

It's a trumped up speeding ticket. Many people who get charged with reckless have no idea that it's a different class of crime than speeding. They just think it costs more, they pay the fine, and have no idea they have a criminal record. My understanding is that this is how he views it. He shrugged at it being a class 1 misdemeanor. I understand that technically he could get in trouble for not disclosing it, but from a risk/reward standpoint here, he might be right that the reward of not disclosing it outweighs the risk of disclosing it. This is of course for a crime like excessive speeding, one where he could easily claim that he had NO IDEA it was a misdemeanor if it ever came up and I would think a lawyer could then, at that point, get that cleared up. It would be completely insane to throw somebody out of residency for a technicality like that, but I'm sure stupider things have happened.

I'm not advocating lying about your criminal record, but simply trying to demonstrate an unusual scenario where pleading the 5th on your app might make sense when common sense indicates that the crime was so minimal that it could easily be forgotten. In fact, I'd bet there are dozens of applicants every year with charges like this who apply who truly are clueless that they actually have a criminal record.

Your friend must be a freaking maniac to go 100+ mph anywhere. like the worst I have ever gotten was one ticket freshman year of college going 60 in a 45. In most states reckless driving to that degree in getting your licence revoked.They are both considered misdemeanors, but are very different in tersm of offense severity

 

[mehc012]

Your friend must be a freaking maniac to go 100+ mph anywhere. like the worst I have ever gotten was one ticket freshman year of college going 60 in a 45. In most states reckless driving to that degree in getting your licence revoked.They are both considered misdemeanors, but are very different in tersm of offense severity

It's all about picking your location. Rural Nebraska with no curves/traffic? Probably nbd if you're paying enough attention to avoid the cop. East coast? Even between cities there are just people everywhere.

No need to be judgemental...whether or not OP's friend was being reckless, it's a bit harsh to say that hitting 100 'anywhere' makes you a maniac. Risking a big ticket, sure, I'll give you that!

Sent from my phone, sorry for any typos or brevity.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

It's all about picking your location. Rural Nebraska with no curves/traffic? Probably nbd if you're paying enough attention to avoid the cop. East coast? Even between cities there are just people everywhere.

No need to be judgemental...whether or not OP's friend was being reckless, it's a bit harsh to say that hitting 100 'anywhere' makes you a maniac. Risking a big ticket, sure, I'll give you that!

Sent from my phone, sorry for any typos or brevity.

lol since my speeding ticket 3ish years ago i literally drive slightly faster than old men on the road, so im exaggerating the severity a little. Like if on on the highway and all the other cars are going 75 ill go 65. yep.. im that guy.

 

[mehc012]

lol since my speeding ticket 3ish years ago i literally drive slightly faster than old men on the road, so im exaggerating the severity a little. Like if on on the highway and all the other cars are going 75 ill go 65. yep.. im that guy.

I honestly think that's far more dangerous overall, but to each their own.

Sent from my phone, sorry for any typos or brevity.

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

the other cars are going 75 ill go 65. yep.. im that guy.

u r 1 cheeky kunt m8 i garentee i will reck u on the road if i get the chance.

I wonder what happens if you get the charge amended to a non moving violation? Does it not reflect as a misdemeanor on your record? Gonna call my lawyer about this on Monday.

 

[mehc012]

u r 1 cheeky kunt m8 i garentee i will reck u on the road if i get the chance.

I wonder what happens if you get the charge amended to a non moving violation? Does it not reflect as a misdemeanor on your record? Gonna call my lawyer about this on Monday.

Didn't show on mine...it was 'plea bargained' to a parking ticket worth the same fine

Sent from my phone, sorry for any typos or brevity.