Advice for Pre Pods

[fishman2007]

For the pre pods on the fence whether to go to podiatry school or not. This is what the reality is about the profession. Looking thru the comments, some of us don’t deal with this crap on a consistent basis but there are some of us who do. Think twice and choose wisely…

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[Shiyuan]

The career/job of podiatry is awesome. The above “foot fetish bro” discussion is stupid and ignorant.

However, the job market struggles they lightly mention are very real and concerning. Browse the attending forum to look more into it (some things you gotta take with grain of salt).

Would I do it all again??? I would! Best of luck to all.

 

[Dean’s Chat]

Hi Everyone, here is some time tested advice for students contemplating a career in podiatric medicine.

1) Connect with a DPM that will provide you an opportunity to shadow. Often these docs become your mentor too! If you don't have a DPM connection, our profession has options for you.

a) Check out the Step into Podiatry site to assist in finding a shadowing DPM in your area.

Find a Mentor

Read more on our site.

www.stepintopodiatry.com

b) The American College of Foot and Ankle Surgeons (ACFAS) is assisting students in finding DPM's to shadow across the country. I will help coordinate - just email me at [email protected]. We will connect you with a shadowing DPM within a few days (and for the record this is a coordinated effort for all Colleges of Podiatric Medicine, not just AZCPM).

2) Here are 5 websites that offer insight into podiatric medicine: The first two are from the American Association of Colleges of Podiatric Medicine (AACPM) and the last three are from the American Podiatric Medical Association (APMA).

www.explorepodmed.org
www.aacpm.org
www.apma.org
www.stepintopodiatry.com
www.apmsa.org

3) Check out Dean's Chat where we have interviews with the College Deans, faculty from the colleges, students from each college representing the American Podiatric Medical Students Association (APMSA), residents, young practitioners, associations in the profession, and other leaders. Podiatric Medicine is a wonderful profession - you won't know if it's for you until you investigate and shadow great docs that love what they do everyday!
www.deanschat.com

4) SDN is a tremendous resource and like all anonymous forums have their share of unfiltered opinions.

Happy Holidays,

Dr. Jensen

 

[Feli]

"Do podiatry schools have MCAT requirements"
"yeah… that it was taken."
"curiously looked at podiatry schools MCAT average. It was a great confidence booster. With an average that low you wonder why they even bother with it"

"Many people don't realize that medicine is a BUSINESS first and helping people second. Same thing with DOs. Why do DOs even exist when we have MDs already. Do you not realize how much money DO schools make from students that couldn't make it to MD?..."

...These parts above are not wrong, particularly the last one.
Reddit can be pretty negative and snarky, but it's a free country. Many people there do give good things to think about.

The career/job of podiatry is awesome. The above “foot fetish bro” discussion is stupid and ignorant.

...Would I do it all again??? I would! Best of luck to all.

The job of podiatry is fine for people interested in the work. I like the job. The podiatry options and income relative to the debt for podiatry are out of control.

That's a function of the new schools and many grads and higher tuitions (tuition/fees/housing roughly doubled in the dozen years since I graduated ... yet incomes up 20-25%, at most). That means podiatry debt is well over double - and with higher interest rates now. The fellowship fad, a pretty clear function of job scarcity, also potentially adds another year of time and loan interest.

Those outcomes should be fully expected when podiatry schools go from 7 to 11 schools in less than twenty years. It's saturation, through and through. Podiatry schools profit from mainly students who couldn't get into MD or DO school. That increased supply of podiatrists hurts ROI for the grads relative to their money and time spent in schooling.

Like anything, podiatry is not amazing as the fluffers say.
It's also not as tough or bad as those who are struggling or frustrated may say.
It just is. It's podiatry.

The true advice for prospective DPM students is:

• Look at ROI (both tuition/debt and time).
• Shadow if interested, see the job.
• Realize who profits significantly from more students/ residents / grads / members.
• Make your own decisions based on you own interests and situation and other options.
• If you do matriculate, work hard. Realize podiatry schools exist to profit, there is a very real attrition rate, and not all grads will get quality residency.

 

[heybrother]

Oh podiatry. So many forums where you get ragged on.

 

[SoleScholar]

For the pre pods on the fence whether to go to podiatry school or not. This is what the reality is about the profession. Looking thru the comments, some of us don’t deal with this crap on a consistent basis but there are some of us who do. Think twice and choose wisely…

This is hilarious, only a child would take this stuff seriously. Really, who the hell cares?
If you enjoy what you do, make enough money to live, and get to help patients, you're really going to care what some neckbeard Redditors say?
Yeah think twice and choose wisely because I'll get made fun of by Redditors... LOL who the hell cares?

 

[SoleScholar]

"Do podiatry schools have MCAT requirements"
"yeah… that it was taken."
"curiously looked at podiatry schools MCAT average. It was a great confidence booster. With an average that low you wonder why they even bother with it"

"Many people don't realize that medicine is a BUSINESS first and helping people second. Same thing with DOs. Why do DOs even exist when we have MDs already. Do you not realize how much money DO schools make from students that couldn't make it to MD?..."

...These parts above are not wrong, particularly the last one.
Reddit can be pretty negative and snarky, but it's a free country. Many people there do give good things to think about.


The job of podiatry is fine for people interested in the work. I like the job. The podiatry options and income relative to the debt for podiatry are out of control.

That's a function of the new schools and many grads and higher tuitions (tuition/fees/housing roughly doubled in the dozen years since I graduated ... yet incomes up 20-25%, at most). That means podiatry debt is well over double - and with higher interest rates now. The fellowship fad, a pretty clear function of job scarcity, also potentially adds another year of time and loan interest.

Those outcomes should be fully expected when podiatry schools go from 7 to 11 schools in less than twenty years. It's saturation, through and through. Podiatry schools profit from mainly students who couldn't get into MD or DO school. That increased supply of podiatrists hurts ROI for the grads relative to their money and time spent in schooling.

Like anything, podiatry is not amazing as the fluffers say.
It's also not as tough or bad as those who are struggling or frustrated may say.
It just is. It's podiatry.

The true advice for prospective DPM students is:

• Look at ROI (both tuition/debt and time).
• Shadow if interested, see the job.
• Realize who profits significantly from more students/ residents / grads / members.
• Make your own decisions based on you own interests and situation and other options.
• If you do matriculate, work hard. Realize podiatry schools exist to profit, there is a very real attrition rate, and not all grads will get quality residency.

Reddit is a god awful platform because any politically incorrect opinion is downvoted and then hidden, like the one about medicine being a business I had to expand because it was hidden with -10 downvotes. Seriously, who would disagree with that? It's just such a logical and real statement to make. Dissenters get downvoted and if you don't have enough karma you can't even post. Also mods can straight up delete anything they don't like for whatever reason.

 

[Adam Smasher]

This is hilarious, only a child would take this stuff seriously. Really, who the hell cares?

If you're a pre-health student, you should take it seriously. There's a kernel of truth in all humor.

No one makes these kinds of jokes about gynecologists or breast surgeons. We would NEVER insinuate that pathologists are necrophiliacs or that pediatricians are pedophiles. Personally I'm not offended by the foot fetish jokes themselves, trite as they may be, because I have a pretty coarse sense of humor myself. What offends me is the view of podiatry held by the people making these jokes.

About a year ago, I wrote a long post on SDN about my likes and dislikes of podiatry, and my second-biggest dislike (after the ROI problem) is the amount of baggage that comes with being a podiatrist. People make assumptions about your intelligence and about your qualifications, not always favorably. You continually have to justify yourself, because your certifications and credentials are NOT enough, no matter how much good work you do. Even basic things like prescribing lamisil will raise PCP's eyebrows, like what qualifications do you have to medically manage anything. Majority (90%) of patients/healthcare professionals treat me with respect, but the minute I veer even slightly out of what they think is my lane, the pushback is unbelievable. PM me if you want to hear stories, not posting them publicly.

I'm at a point now where my attitude about the problem is dispassionate resignation. I'm not going to change hearts or minds, the world is what it is, I do my best for my patients and back down whenever someone challenges me. See also the lobster comparisons I've made.

 

[Weirdy]

Reddit is a god awful platform because any politically incorrect opinion is downvoted and then hidden, like the one about medicine being a business I had to expand because it was hidden with -10 downvotes. Seriously, who would disagree with that? It's just such a logical and real statement to make. Dissenters get downvoted and if you don't have enough karma you can't even post. Also mods can straight up delete anything they don't like for whatever reason.

Yup. Reddit is a popularity contest /majority rules. Not exactly based on accuracy.

 

[HalluxSlicer]

Hi Everyone, here is some time tested advice for students contemplating a career in podiatric medicine.

1) Connect with a DPM that will provide you an opportunity to shadow. Often these docs become your mentor too! If you don't have a DPM connection, our profession has options for you.

a) Check out the Step into Podiatry site to assist in finding a shadowing DPM in your area.

Find a Mentor

Read more on our site.

www.stepintopodiatry.com

b) The American College of Foot and Ankle Surgeons (ACFAS) is assisting students in finding DPM's to shadow across the country. I will help coordinate - just email me at [email protected]. We will connect you with a shadowing DPM within a few days (and for the record this is a coordinated effort for all Colleges of Podiatric Medicine, not just AZCPM).

2) Here are 5 websites that offer insight into podiatric medicine: The first two are from the American Association of Colleges of Podiatric Medicine (AACPM) and the last three are from the American Podiatric Medical Association (APMA).

www.explorepodmed.org
www.aacpm.org
www.apma.org
www.stepintopodiatry.com
www.apmsa.org

3) Check out Dean's Chat where we have interviews with the College Deans, faculty from the colleges, students from each college representing the American Podiatric Medical Students Association (APMSA), residents, young practitioners, associations in the profession, and other leaders. Podiatric Medicine is a wonderful profession - you won't know if it's for you until you investigate and shadow great docs that love what they do everyday!
www.deanschat.com

4) SDN is a tremendous resource and like all anonymous forums have their share of unfiltered opinions.

Happy Holidays,

Dr. Jensen

This is a great resource and interested students should definitely take advantage of this opportunity. Be weary though because like all institutions of higher education, they're in it for $$$ first and student second. Know your worth financially, academically, and if you can make it or not.

Happy holidays!

 

[air bud]

This is a great resource and interested students should definitely take advantage of this opportunity. Be weary though because like all institutions of higher education, they're in it for $$$ first and student second. Know your worth financially, academically, and if you can make it or not.

Happy holidays!

Wait why is hallux slicer using Cutswithfury profile pic....🧐🤔

 

[MoostashPod]

Wait why is hallux slicer using Cutswithfury profile pic....🧐🤔

My first thought precisely.

 

[wakaflocka88]

You will make more money opening a nail salon than going through 7 years of school to cut nails. Podiatrists will tell you C&C pays the bills, so why not the above scenario without more debt?

 

[Shiyuan]

This is a great resource and interested students should definitely take advantage of this opportunity. Be weary though because like all institutions of higher education, they're in it for $$$ first and student second. Know your worth financially, academically, and if you can make it or not.

Happy holidays!

Not April 1 yet, bro. 😇

 

[SoleScholar]

You will make more money opening a nail salon than going through 7 years of school to cut nails. Podiatrists will tell you C&C pays the bills, so why not the above scenario without more debt?

I don't believe for a second that the average nail salon makes more than the average podiatry clinic, feel free to prove me wrong.

 

[icebreaker32]

I don't believe for a second that the average nail salon makes more than the average podiatry clinic, feel free to prove me wrong.

Well they are known for money laundering, but seriously the outliers or owners with multiple locations like any business can do very well while others go out of business.

This is the internet...I took it as humor with some underlying truth. There certainly are some associate podiatrists getting paid very low and not using their training to do much other than trim nails.

 

[Feli]

I don't believe for a second that the average nail salon makes more than the average podiatry clinic, feel free to prove me wrong.

He is just talking 7 or 8 years of making negative for grad school.
Many simple businesses (gas stations, tradesman, RN, nail salons, whatever) will beat you if they re-invest in their biz or other growth areas (stocks, etc). They have such a long head start of positive income and interest growing on their side... versus piling up against the delay schooling plan.

There needs to be a sizable carrot at the end of that stick to do 7+ years (plus undergrad) of not only borrowing money - but also time opportunity costs.

That is why ROI is a serious consideration (for any schooling)....
1:1 is good, some say 2:1 is acceptable... nearly anyone says ROI higher than that is very tough to ever get ahead with loan interest. Podiatry often has 3:1 or even worse (ie, 125k income after 400k loan debt, etc). Tuitions are not getting any better.

 

[icebreaker32]

Add to above fewer loan forgiveness or repayment assistance jobs and fewer jobs with good benefits.

Edit: although not ideal income based payments with eventual loan forgiveness provide a lifeline to those with high educational debt and low ROIs.

 

[PTPuser]

I posted this in another thread but my cousins are nail techs, own 3 shops now with a total of 30 stations that she rents out to other techs who just needs a shop. She has a 70/30 rule where the shop keeps 70% and you take 30+tips. She told me privately that after over head she's taking home 200K. She completed a 1 month program, did 100 hrs of supervision and it cost her 5K.

5K and a month of her life to make that....

Of course she's not bringing it a lot like a well oiled pod clinic, but you have to understand that she spent 1 month of her life and 5K to get the ball rolling, while we're over here with 300K.

 

[icebreaker32]

I posted this in another thread but my cousins are nail techs, own 3 shops now with a total of 30 stations that she rents out to other techs who just needs a shop. She has a 70/30 rule where the shop keeps 70% and you take 30+tips. She told me privately that after over head she's taking home 200K. She completed a 1 month program, did 100 hrs of supervision and it cost her 5K.

5K and a month of her life to make that....

Of course she's not bringing it a lot like a well oiled pod clinic, but you have to understand that she spent 1 month of her life and 5K to get the ball rolling, while we're over here with 300K.

So moral of story is that mustache podiatrists are like high earning salon owners and associate podiatrists are like high earning nail techs.

 

[SoleScholar]

He is just talking 7 or 8 years of making negative for grad school.
Many simple businesses (gas stations, tradesman, RN, nail salons, whatever) will beat you if they re-invest in their biz or other growth areas (stocks, etc). They have such a long head start of positive income and interest growing on their side... versus piling up against the delay schooling plan.

There needs to be a sizable carrot at the end of that stick to do 7+ years (plus undergrad) of not only borrowing money - but also time opportunity costs.

That is why ROI is a serious consideration (for any schooling)....
1:1 is good, some say 2:1 is acceptable... nearly anyone says ROI higher than that is very tough to ever get ahead with loan interest. Podiatry often has 3:1 or even worse (ie, 125k income after 400k loan debt, etc). Tuitions are not getting any better.

I believe this is just how it is in America now. The most common undergraduate degree is business. In my state the average salary for someone with a BA in business is 61k a year. There are plenty of physicians working insane hours and bringing in 200-300k a year, of all the podiatrists I've met none make less than 200k and they don't have to work these insane hours. Mind you, I've only shadowed practice owners and hospital employees.

Maybe I'll look into opening a nail salon now to give me income while I'm in school.

As a side note, there are kids at my school taking out loans for undergrad and grad school to major in puppetry.

 

[MoostashPod]

I believe this is just how it is in America now. The most common undergraduate degree is business. In my state the average salary for someone with a BA in business is 61k a year. There are plenty of physicians working insane hours and bringing in 200-300k a year, of all the podiatrists I've met none make less than 200k and they don't have to work these insane hours. Mind you, I've only shadowed practice owners and hospital employees.

Maybe I'll look into opening a nail salon now to give me income while I'm in school.

As a side note, there are kids at my school taking out loans for undergrad and grad school to major in puppetry.

Left-handed puppetry to be exact (as Dave Ramsey would put it). Better yet underwater basket weaving.

 

[PTPuser]

Mind you, I've only shadowed practice owners and hospital employees.

Ok, now I understand where these rose-colored view came from. I highly recommend, if it's possible, and I know most can because I see them all the time, go visit a local podiatry residency program to shadow and talk to the residents. Especially your pgy-3 who are job hunting and maybe a younger pod who's an associate. Of course it's cherry picking but see what they say and compare it to business owners and the hospital ones you've met.

In order to make informed decision about something you should see both sides and you should see the majority which is associate.

 

[icebreaker32]

all the podiatrists I've met none make less than 200k and they don't have to work these insane hours. Mind you, I've only shadowed practice owners and hospital employees.

This is why.

Some hospital employed podiatrists do work long hours. There are offices that are not killing it and plenty of associates not killing it. Many do give up their desired location for opportunities in this profession also.

You can often choose many practice settings with lower volume as an MD also for less money....which is still usually more than 200K even in primary care. Specialists also but most won't take 350K when they can make more than 500K or more in another setting.

I am not saying you should not do podiatry or there is no way it will workout for you.

We all assumed we would be successful like the podiatrists we shadowed. Some are and some are not. There is not a narrow job type or pay band in this profession where most are doing about the same. There are haves and have nots in podiatry and not a good job market to fall back on for low hanging fruit.

 

[Feli]

I believe this is just how it is in America now. The most common undergraduate degree is business. ....

The most common bachelor degree in the USA - or elsewhere - is not having one.
Those are not bums on the street or just your fast food people.
Entrepreneurs, HVAC, contractor, worked-their-way-up types in any career field you can think of. A lot of them are the people who started or run Fortune 500 companies. Quite a few never went to school or dropped out (most employed CEO, COO, CSO, CFO, MBAs and high level managers, etc just went back to school later, on the company dime).

I am all for education.
I think podiatry is fine.
It's good.
However, realize that the vast majority of DPMs are not hospital employed or owner docs. $200k income is above the median. $400k student debt is not uncommon. @PTPuser is giving good advice. But hey, nobody ever thinks they will be average - much less below. I hope it works out for you.

Would I do podiatry again now, knowing what I know now? No way... it's an ok choice, and I'm not unhappy with it (but I graduated high, matched well, own my office, make above the median). However, there are maaany better, faster, and higher ROI career choices with more job options and less variability than podiatry. RN is probably - and was - the best choice imo, but I was too stubborn and set on being a doc way back when. My friends my age who did RN are crushing it, have much more investments than I, and were out of debt far faster. Oh, and of course, they also added 4 podiatry schools just since I graduated less than 20yrs ago, tuition more than doubled, tuition + living overall debt for the average DPM grad roughly doubling... and did I mention interest rates roughly doubled also?