Advice for someone who has failed NAVLE multiple times

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nbharpe

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Hey everyone,

I am in need of advice and/or counsel. I am a recent 2014 graduate and have now taken and failed the NAVLE 4 different times. I had to give up my private practice internship now twice since I failed last year and now this year in April. It is truly devastating and am in need of some advice or at least talk to someone that has possibly been in the same boat and found something that worked for them. The first time I admit I was not as prepared and failed the NAVLE after using VetPrep and maybe only completing about 50% of the material. The second time I was more prepared and completed Zuku to about 65% along with using a friends VetPrep account to complete about 30% studying from January until April. I felt a lot better about the test but still failed (399 and passing score needed to be 425). After being disappointed by failing the second time I truly focused in on the things that I was weak at: large animal medicine, my test anxiety, and putting in more time and effort into studying. I worked at a small animal private practice and studied when I was working there. Most days I would put in over 6-8 hours of studying a day every day, 5-6 on weekends. I took the test for the 3rd time in December of 2014 and found out in January that I didn't pass. I was so utterly confused and was not sure what happened this time around. I did Zuku again and made it through about 75%, reviewed old notes, vet prep power pages, zuku power pages, and really tried to work on my test anxiety. I am by nature a very slow test taker so this time around I wanted to make sure that I had focused on that aspect since I struggled completing each section on time each time I took the NAVLE. My score for the 3rd NAVLE was the worst of all which was very alarming for me. I signed up to take the NAVLE again in April and unfortunately didn't pass that time either. This was the most shocking of all since I really honestly felt good about this test this time around. I completed about 95% of Zuku, studied for at least 8-9 hours a day and worked at the small animal practice getting lots of experience working on things I still struggled with like thoracic radiographs, reproductive physio, bloodwork, ultrasound and oncology. I worked on my test anxiety and throughout the whole testing process I was never nervous, rushed, and didn't panic. I finished every single section on time with about 4-5 minutes to spare. I am waiting on my score report now but I am at a loss for words. Now I must wait until November/December to take the test again, putting my life on hold again another 6 months.

I am curious as to if someone has been in my shoes before and if so what strategies did they implement to help them pass. I am considering doing one of the test prep materials again but trying to attack this from many other angles like: buying different books, locating a NAVLE tutor (if that is even a thing), and anything else that might possibly help. Any advice would be so greatly appreciated. This is the most frustrating thing because this one test is limiting me to be the great clinician I know that I can be.

- Nate

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Did you take any practice tests (the $50 self-assessments by the NBVME)? Just curious since I took one prior to taking my NAVLE and found that it was pretty much spot on in predicting my actual score. I would definitely take at least one practice test before your next rewrite so you have an idea of how close you are to passing or not and whether there are still some sections you need to work on.

Also, did you ever have trouble with tests/exams in vet school?
 
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jesskb thanks for writing in and I am strongly considering something now that I haven't passed after 4 times. SocialStigma I did have trouble with tests in vet school and was always a B/C student but excelled in clinics. It was night and day for me. I struggled in the classroom but strongly excelled in the clinic floor. I think it is just simply the act of taking the test because I understand and know the material I just think I get tricked easily by the way the question is written. That coupled with the amount of time given for each section. This most recent time I improved tremendously and was able to finish each section with several minutes to spare each time. I have taken one of the self-assessment tests provided by the NBVME for the past two tests (try 3 and 4) and made slightly over the passing score. I want to continue to take those practice tests this time around. I also feel like I still struggle with the large animal aspect and spent a lot of time trying to improve that aspect of my score. Any advice on large animal references.
 
Hi Nate,

My heart goes out to you. I just finished up my first year. Second semester went great, but I struggled tremendously with Anatomy throughout Semester 1. During winter break, I enrolled in a skills course designed for students struggling with clinical curricula. It's called the STAT program, and is taught by a specialist in learning- Ryan Orwig. Ryan is a genius. His methods helped me to completely turn around my performance. I couldn't be more grateful. One of the best investments I ever made. Ryan runs a board exam workshop, for students struggling to pass ANY board exam- be that general practice, specialty boards, etc. The vast majority of his students are human medical folks, but the methods taught worked great for me- they're generally applicable. We had a diluted form of the boards workshop during the skills class (it ran for 10 days). Ryan will teach you how to assess performance on boards questions, and to 'train' for improved performance using methods other than cycling through a question bank. I HIGHLY recommend Ryan Orwig and ALL of the services he offers. The guy is amazing.

Check out his company here:

https://www.thestatprogram.com/services/stat-boards-workshop/
 
all i can tell you is I completed all of zuku and vetprep the year I passed and took meds for anxiety\
 
Hi Nate,

My heart goes out to you. I just finished up my first year. Second semester went great, but I struggled tremendously with Anatomy throughout Semester 1. During winter break, I enrolled in a skills course designed for students struggling with clinical curricula. It's called the STAT program, and is taught by a specialist in learning- Ryan Orwig. Ryan is a genius. His methods helped me to completely turn around my performance. I couldn't be more grateful. One of the best investments I ever made. Ryan runs a board exam workshop, for students struggling to pass ANY board exam- be that general practice, specialty boards, etc. The vast majority of his students are human medical folks, but the methods taught worked great for me- they're generally applicable. We had a diluted form of the boards workshop during the skills class (it ran for 10 days). Ryan will teach you how to assess performance on boards questions, and to 'train' for improved performance using methods other than cycling through a question bank. I HIGHLY recommend Ryan Orwig and ALL of the services he offers. The guy is amazing.

Check out his company here:

https://www.thestatprogram.com/services/stat-boards-workshop/

Hey,
I really appreciate your input and I have never heard of this program before, but have already looked into it. I have briefly spoke with Ryan and am interested in his class. Did you do the STAT program/workshop or the class? Or both? Thanks!
 
I don't know anything about the Orwig STAT program, but I think it sounds like a good lead. I think the thing that stands out most to me is that in all four attempts, you utilized somewhat similar approaches (VetPrep, Zuku) and the only thing that varied was how far you got through each. So I feel like those approaches aren't working for you. The difference between 30% completion and 70% completion really shouldn't have a ton of impact on the outcome, I don't think. I think what I found (using VetPrep) is that it presented the material ok, but it didn't really reflect the actual NAVLE questions very well. As a super simplified breakdown, I felt like VetPrep (and the Zuku review questions I saw) tended to be along the lines of "you have this animal <insert history, blood work, rads, whatever>; what's wrong with it?".... whereas NAVLE tended to be more "you have this animal <insert history, blood work, rads, whatever>; what's the best course of treatment?" NAVLE sorta assumes you'll have the right diagnosis, whereas when you're STUDYING you tend to think along the lines of trying to diagnose.

So I'd find a different way to approach the material that helps it stick better. Maybe Orwig is it, maybe not. But you need to change up <something>.

NAVLE is, in my opinion, an outstandingly awful way to evaluate someone's clinical competency. I can't figure out why ANYONE thinks it does a good OR adequate job. It's really just more of a hurdle you need to somehow get past that has no actual bearing on your competency.
 
Hi Nate,

I just finished my first year of vet school, so only enrolled in the STAT class (Ryan's flagship program). At the tail end of the class, we spent about a day on boards-style exams. The boards workshop would be much more in-depth (I believe that Ryan also offers individualized coaching as a part of that program- check to be sure). I completed the semester break (between fall and spring) course, and absolutely kicked ass my second semester. I am a huge fan of Ryan- both as a human being, and as an instructor. Ask him for my testimonial (I'm one of his few veterinary alumni). I think that he's planning on posting it to his blog at some point. Feel free to send me a PM if you have any questions. Best of success on the NAVLE!
 
Late comer to this but...I'm the husband of a graduate who has failed this exam 4 times. She is taking it for the 5th time today after studying for 5 months and completing 100% of Zuku's test prep.

This test has been a catastrophe for my wife and our family. Those jobs they say you can get with a DVM? Yeah, not happening without the passing score you need to get the license. That giant mound of student debt that you accumulate during vet school thinking you will make an income sufficient to pay it off upon graduation? Not happening unless you pass the NAVLE.

This exam has effectively ruined a lot of life plans for us and cost us tens of thousands in income that will never be recovered. No one will listen, but frankly anyone who supports the use of this exam as a criteria for licensure should be FIRED. The only thing it proves is your ability to take a test and I have yet to meet a veterinarian yet who says they could pass it 5-10 years down the road into their career. It's that unrealistic.

Good luck on your next attempt.
 
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This test has been a catastrophe for my wife and our family. Those jobs they say you can get with a DVM? Yeah, not happening without the passing score you need to get the license. That giant mound of student debt that you accumulate during vet school thinking you will make an income sufficient to pay it off upon graduation? Not happening unless you pass the NAVLE.
I don't think anyone in this country thinks you can work as a DVM without passing the NAVLE.

I get that you are upset, but what are your ideas for how to determine criteria for licensure status? While many parts of the NAVLE are frustrating to be sure, I think there needs to be some safeguard for medical professionals - there are many variables in passing core courses during your DVM. This exam is meant to sample a minimum of knowledge you need to treat animals or perform the activities of a veterinarian.
 
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The pass rate for the NAVLE is obscenely high (90-95% depending on year) and you only need to get around between a 55-65% to pass in any given year.

Anyone who fails it multiple times either has severe issues with studying or test-taking (for which they should seek help) or they simply do not have the required knowledge base.

Lines have to be drawn. There has to be an established minimum knowledge base in order to be a practitioner, and there has to be an established methodology and consistent exam to evaluate it. I'm sorry your wife has had such issues with the exam, but that's how it is.
 
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I don't think anyone in this country thinks you can work as a DVM without passing the NAVLE.

I get that you are upset, but what are your ideas for how to determine criteria for licensure status? While many parts of the NAVLE are frustrating to be sure, I think there needs to be some safeguard for medical professionals - there are many variables in passing core courses during your DVM. This exam is meant to sample a minimum of knowledge you need to treat animals or perform the activities of a veterinarian.

Come live our life. It's easy to preach if you've passed it.

Seriously, not one single practicing veterinarian that I know, and I know many now, feels they could pass that test today so what you are claiming here doesn't cut muster. Honest to God, I know of one who passed who couldn't even measure a dose in vet school. I'm not kidding. I know of another who can barely talk to clients let alone neuter a dog in less than four hours. This test does not safeguard anything.

Or perhaps you would like to defend needing to know anything about dolphins and whales to be a small animal vet? I'm sure many clients who bring in their sick dog worry endlessly whether their vet knows anything about llama estrus.

There should be an exam for each specialty. Small animal for small animal practitioners, large animal for large animal for practitioners, exotics for exotic animal practitioners, etc. As it is now it's just a kitchen sink of all manner of nonsense thrown at people based on four years of veterinary school that you already passed.

The most insulting part is that the NAVLE folks actually try to get state boards to limit how many attempts you have to take it as well as how often.

It's also not just veterinary jobs that this shafts you out of. Trying teaching anything veterinary, most schools right down to community colleges require it. Meat inspection? Yep, need to pass it for that license. Many jobs at pharmaceutical/medical equipment companies? Yep, need it in many cases short of sales. The list goes on.

Literally every single job promised to you if you get your DVM is not possible unless you pass that horrid exam. Unless you live the disappointment and the financial hardship that failing causes you just don't understand.

Veterinary school is a nightmare in itself, this is the salt in the wound.
 
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Come live our life. It's easy to preach if you've passed it.

Seriously, not one single practicing veterinarian that I know, and I know many now, feels they could pass that test today so what you are claiming here doesn't cut muster. Honest to God, I know of one who passed who couldn't even measure a dose in vet school. I'm not kidding. I know of another who can barely talk to clients let alone neuter a dog in less than four hours. This test does not safeguard anything.

Or perhaps you would like to defend needing to know anything about dolphins and whales to be a small animal vet? I'm sure many clients who bring in their sick dog worry endlessly whether their vet knows anything about llama estrus.

There should be an exam for each specialty. Small animal for small animal practitioners, large animal for large animal for practitioners, exotics for exotic animal practitioners, etc. As it is now it's just a kitchen sink of all manner of nonsense thrown at people based on four years of veterinary school that you already passed.

The most insulting part is that the NAVLE folks actually try to get state boards to limit how many attempts you have to take it as well as how often.

It's also not just veterinary jobs that this shafts you out of. Trying teaching anything veterinary, most schools right down to community colleges require it. Meat inspection? Yep, need to pass it for that license. Many jobs at pharmaceutical/medical equipment companies? Yep, need it in many cases short of sales. The list goes on.

Literally every single job promised to you if you get your DVM is not possible unless you pass that horrid exam. Unless you live the disappointment and the financial hardship that failing causes you just don't understand.

Veterinary school is a nightmare in itself, this is the salt in the wound.
You got offended pretty quickly. I simply asked what your alternative was. I wasn't passing any judgement on your or your wife except that you are obviously upset about this. Yes, you need a license to work as a DVM, even if not a clinical DVM - you are simply not a licensed DVM. This was explained to us in our first year of vet school if not during the orientation session. Going to vet school wasn't something I personally took lightly.

Yes, I don't understand what it's like to fail and have to repeat. But I don't believe that there should be different tests for each specialty - there are many vets that aren't sure what species they will be treating since the test is taken during 4th year for many. While I feel sorry that your spouse is in this situation, I don't believe that your solutions are truly solutions - they seem to be desires based on personal frustrations.

I also have never had a question on cetaceans on the exam but that is beside the point. It sucks but I don't think the answer is lashing out on SDN at other users.
 
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You got offended pretty quickly. I simply asked what your alternative was. I wasn't passing any judgement on your or your wife except that you are obviously upset about this. Yes, you need a license to work as a DVM, even if not a clinical DVM - you are simply not a licensed DVM. This was explained to us in our first year of vet school if not during the orientation session. Going to vet school wasn't something I personally took lightly.

Yes, I don't understand what it's like to fail and have to repeat. But I don't believe that there should be different tests for each specialty - there are many vets that aren't sure what species they will be treating since the test is taken during 4th year for many. While I feel sorry that your spouse is in this situation, I don't believe that your solutions are truly solutions - they seem to be desires based on personal frustrations.

I also have never had a question on cetaceans on the exam but that is beside the point. It sucks but I don't think the answer is lashing out on SDN at other users.

Hey you're living the dream. We can only look into the candy store and wish. I would not recommend this profession to anyone when so much time, money, tears, and even blood can be spent and flushed down the toilet by one exam after graduation. This will literally impact my kids' futures. But you don't care, you passed after all...
 
Hey you're living the dream. We can only look into the candy store and wish. I would not recommend this profession to anyone when so much time, money, tears, and even blood can be spent and flushed down the toilet by one exam after graduation. This will literally impact my kids' futures. But you don't care, you passed after all...
Where did I say I didn't care? The test sucks. It really does. And it sucks that she's working so hard and not seeing a payoff. But the solutions you suggest are not feasible, IMO. FWIW, even if you do pass, this profession will impact any vet's childrens' futures.
 
Hey you're living the dream. We can only look into the candy store and wish. I would not recommend this profession to anyone when so much time, money, tears, and even blood can be spent and flushed down the toilet by one exam after graduation. This will literally impact my kids' futures. But you don't care, you passed after all...

Indiscriminately spewing vitriol towards people is not helping your case.
 
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Sometimes you need to come down from your ivory tower and see the damage you do.

Have a nice day. I'm out.

Curses. My secret plot to overthrow veterinary medicine using an exam over which I have zero control and never will has been found out. If it weren't for those meddling kids I could have continued to do so much damage.....
 
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The pass rate for the NAVLE is obscenely high (90-95% depending on year) and you only need to get around between a 55-65% to pass in any given year.

Anyone who fails it multiple times either has severe issues with studying or test-taking (for which they should seek help) or they simply do not have the required knowledge base.

Lines have to be drawn. There has to be an established minimum knowledge base in order to be a practitioner, and there has to be an established methodology and consistent exam to evaluate it. I'm sorry your wife has had such issues with the exam, but that's how it is.


This.
 
Sometimes you need to come down from your ivory tower and see the damage you do.

Have a nice day. I'm out.
Perhaps if you (and/or your wife) had come here seeking assistance or advice from people who did manage to pass, instead of just letting your frustration and honestly jealousy for the people who passed NAVLE cloud your judgement, you may have gotten a lot of sympathy and possibly good advice. Instead you just came on here and whined about a system that exists that no one here has any control over because it is making your life hell. And then, even after people offered advice or questions or what have you, you proceeded to jump down their throats because these horrible people managed to pass NAVLE and they have no idea how hard it is for you and your poor wife and woe is me you horrible horrible vets.

Take a step back, redirect the anger and frustration to where it belongs (with the system in place, not the people who have made it through the system). And maybe try to find a way to work with the system, because that's what we're stuck with for the unforeseeable future. And the best way to do that is probably by asking for help from the people who have navigated it successfully, rather than criticizing them for being able to do so.

But what do I know, I'm just a 3rd year vet student who may well be in your wife's shoes in a few years.
 
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Oh my. First thread I've ever read in the Veterinary forum. I'll go back to Pre-Vet where it's rainbows and butterflies for a couple months longer.
 
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Curses. My secret plot to overthrow veterinary medicine using an exam over which I have zero control and never will has been found out. If it weren't for those meddling kids I could have continued to do so much damage.....

You expressed your support for the exam. That makes you part of the problem.
 
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You expressed your support for the exam. That makes you part of the problem.
What is your proposed alternative? It sounds like your wife is in the very small minority of this system not working. Which is unfortunate, but since I'm not hearing a viable alternative, again it just sounds like you're bitching about the system that none of us here can change, instead of trying to figure out a way to work with it.
 
The thing is, the "system" is working fine. Like I said, 95% of veterinary students pass the exam just fine. It's not a cakewalk to prepare for by any means, but come on now. The 5% who do not pass either have issues unrelated to their knowledge base such as severe test anxiety or poorly learned/applied study methods (both of which can be addressed in more constructive ways than whining and accusing people over the internet) or they just can't cut the mustard.

If we had over half of fourth year students failing NAVLE or something like that, then yes, I would completely agree with VetHusband that there is a problem with the exam and some reformats were in order. But when the vast, vast, VAST majority of people are passing no problem...the issue isn't with the exam.
 
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The thing is, the "system" is working fine. Like I said, 95% of veterinary students pass the exam just fine. It's not a cakewalk to prepare for by any means, but come on now. The 5% who do not pass either have issues unrelated to their knowledge base such as severe test anxiety or poorly learned/applied study methods (both of which can be addressed in more constructive ways than whining and accusing people over the internet) or they just can't cut the mustard.

If we had over half of fourth year students failing NAVLE or something like that, then yes, I would completely agree with VetHusband that there is a problem with the exam and some reformats were in order. But when the vast, vast, VAST majority of people are passing no problem...the issue isn't with the exam.
Yup. This. Although the test is far from perfect, it has a purpose. And while the spouse of this user is having an issue, many do not.

To expect to be able to work as an unlicensed DVM is a poor expectation. I would be more upset about whoever is promoting that misconception.
 
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The thing is, the "system" is working fine. Like I said, 95% of veterinary students pass the exam just fine. It's not a cakewalk to prepare for by any means, but come on now. The 5% who do not pass either have issues unrelated to their knowledge base such as severe test anxiety or poorly learned/applied study methods (both of which can be addressed in more constructive ways than whining and accusing people over the internet) or they just can't cut the mustard.

If we had over half of fourth year students failing NAVLE or something like that, then yes, I would completely agree with VetHusband that there is a problem with the exam and some reformats were in order. But when the vast, vast, VAST majority of people are passing no problem...the issue isn't with the exam.

Why doncha tell him about the other exam you took? The one with the 40% pass rate?

I feel like all vet school was... was learning how to take exams. Because that's all the first three years were. Exams. The one last big one sucked donkey dongle, but it's literally what everything was leading up to.

I hope your wife passes and y'all can move on with the rest of your lives.
 
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Why doncha tell him about the other exam you took? The one with the 40% pass rate?

I feel like all vet school was... was learning how to take exams. Because that's all the first three years were. Exams. The one last big one sucked donkey dongle, but it's literally what everything was leading up to.

I hope your wife passes and y'all can move on with the rest of your lives.

Believe me, I've been holding back.
 
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Why doncha tell him about the other exam you took? The one with the 40% pass rate?

I feel like all vet school was... was learning how to take exams. Because that's all the first three years were. Exams. The one last big one sucked donkey dongle, but it's literally what everything was leading up to.

I hope your wife passes and y'all can move on with the rest of your lives.


Speciality boards are a whole different ballgame... and provide residents endless reasons to bitch....
 
Literally every single job promised to you if you get your DVM is not possible unless you pass that horrid exam. Unless you live the disappointment and the financial hardship that failing causes you just don't understand.

Of course. Why anyone would think they could get a job as a doctor without having a license to practice medicine is beyond me.

And nobody promised me anything, least of all a job.
 
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Whew, randomly clicked into this thread, great read!
 
. The 5% who do not pass either have issues unrelated to their knowledge base such as severe test anxiety or poorly learned/applied study methods (both of which can be addressed in more constructive ways than whining and accusing people over the internet) or they just can't cut the mustard.

.

Really? They somehow got through veterinary school didn't they?

Tell you what, you go take the exam again, minus prep, pass it and I will shut up. I'll bet a fairly significant sum that you can't. Most vets can't and they admit it which effectively means the exam is meaningless in the long haul. It proves nothing other than your ability to cram for and take a test.

I'll also promise you this. If by some miracle my wife does pass this time I will be back here still telling you that you are wrong...because you are.
 
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Of course. Why anyone would think they could get a job as a doctor without having a license to practice medicine is beyond me.

And nobody promised me anything, least of all a job.

My wife had one promised to her. But then she failed the exam, by 1%. But she surely has a test anxiety issue or doesn't have the knowledge. Okay.
 
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Really? They somehow got through veterinary school didn't they?

Tell you what, you go take the exam again, minus prep, pass it and I will shut up. I'll bet a fairly significant sum that you can't. Most vets can't and they admit it which effectively means the exam is meaningless in the long haul. It proves nothing other than your ability to cram for and take a test.

I'll also promise you this. If by some miracle my wife does pass this time I will be back here still telling you that you are wrong...because you are.

Considering my particular specialty involves pretty much everything in vet school in even MORE detail, especially more than is covered in NAVLE, I have no doubt I could.

The reason most clinical vets would doubt their ability to pass it is because they have specialized (usually not formally, but in terms of treating primarily small vs large animals and the like) AFTER graduating in their chosen area. Of course a vet would not remember large animal medicine after 10 years of small animal practice. That is not the point of the exam. The point of the exam is to ensure that everyone coming out of veterinary school can be a passable clinician for the most common species - and the exam is weighted as such with almost half the questions being small animal - especially since you can never be sure where you are going to end up jobwise (e.g. the large number of large animal colleagues of mine who have ended up in SA practice).
 
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Really? They somehow got through veterinary school didn't they?

Tell you what, you go take the exam again, minus prep, pass it and I will shut up. I'll bet a fairly significant sum that you can't. Most vets can't and they admit it which effectively means the exam is meaningless in the long haul. It proves nothing other than your ability to cram for and take a test.

I'll also promise you this. If by some miracle my wife does pass this time I will be back here still telling you that you are wrong...because you are.
If your wife passes, that means she finally figured out the system. And it worked for her. So really, you'll be the wrong one and everyone here will be proved right. Has she looked into any testing anxiety or maybe classes to take to help with it? We aren't sitting here saying she shouldn't be a vet, I hope you realize that. All we're saying is that this is the procedure, and all of us (including your wife hopefully) have known that since day 1. It sucks what you're going through, it really does. But we're not the enemy. In fact, we could be your biggest supporters. But you need to have realistic expectations.

Also, as far as asking a vet to take the exam minus prep, well that wouldn't be the same as your wife right? Hopefully she's been prepping her butt off (you mentioned before she finished 100% of Zuku). And yes, I think everyone coming fresh out of school and with that prep right in the back of their minds has a distinct advantage when it comes to taking NAVLE, which I think is the point. They're trying to make sure that new vets have the background knowledge they need to begin practicing. As you advance in your career, the things you need to know for your particular niche solidify, while the things you don't use fade into the background. That doesn't mean you become a crappy vet, it just means you've become a vet in your field. But everyone needs to start with all of the background, because we don't have separate licensure and we could legally go into any field upon graduation. That's just the way it is. It may not be the best model, but it's what we have. Bitching about it on a forum won't help anyone and will just make you feel worse.
 
My wife had one promised to her. But then she failed the exam, by 1%. But she surely has a test anxiety issue or doesn't have the knowledge. Okay.

Honest question. Exactly what are you trying to accomplish with your posts?

I personally know people who have failed the NAVLE so I know how devastating that can be. I have a dear friend who is not lacking in the least as a veterinarian who failed it twice. The test format wasn't her thing. That being said, I'm pretty sure it's probably less than one in 2000+ graduates of accredited US schools that fail it >2 times. So is it really the test that's the problem? I mean I get you, the test is not without its flaws and passing it certainly doesn't mean you have clinical competency. But an extremely high percentage of people get by just fine, and only an exceedingly small number of people fail that many times. That means that it's not a big barrier to entry.
 
Really? They somehow got through veterinary school didn't they?

If it's a 90-95% pass rate, that means, on average, 5-10% of people who passed vet school failed the NAVLE each year. So no, passing vet school =/= passing NAVLE. It sure as hell seems to help though, with a passing rate that high.
 
Nationwide in Canada you have 2 chances to pass, so at least your wife has more wiggle room and can get through it this time. The foreign grad process is a long road so hopefully it can be avoided.
 
Have you failed 4-5 times? Have you paid for the exam five times? Have you had to live with someone who fails that many times and had to deal with the crushing effects of it?

Have you ever sent an e-mail to the vet school you went to seeking help because you can't somehow pass this precious exam and get silence in return? That's just it, the people who push this thing really have no idea what to do with people who can't pass it and end up saddled with student debt from a degree they can do nothing with. It's all "Nothing to see here! Everything is great, we're in the 90th percentile!" They don't even want to acknowledge that there are people slipping through the exam who shouldn't while others who should pass, fail.

They are, however, quite happy to make snarky comments like "perhaps you need to see a learning specialist." Are you kidding me? You would actually say that to someone who graduated from the hell that is veterinary school? That's bottomless arrogance right there.

I think I'm starting to see why the veterinary profession has such a problem with suicide when you can see yourselves as that perfect. It must be horrid when you actually have to deal with people and not a book or an exam and have your pompous world view shaken.

Your policies have consequences, human ones. Either help out the ones who fall through the cracks or change what you're doing. People are going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt to get these degrees and suffering through the programs to get to the point where they can even take the exam. Have a little respect and take care of your own, even the ones who struggle at the end. Presently you do not.
 
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Have you failed 4-5 times? Have you paid for the exam five times? Have you had to live with someone who fails that many times and had to deal with the crushing effects of it?

Have you ever sent an e-mail to the vet school you went to seeking help because you can't somehow pass this precious exam and get silence in return? That's just it, the people who push this thing really have no idea what to do with people who can't pass it and end up saddled with student debt from a degree they can do nothing with. It's all "Nothing to see here! Everything is great, we're in the 90th percentile!" They don't even want to acknowledge that there are people slipping through the exam who shouldn't while others who should pass, fail.

Yes, I do have experience with that. I have had close friends who have had to take pathology boards anywhere from 3-5 times in order to pass all the sections. A 3-day, $800+ exam that you have to travel across the country for (so add costs for flights and hotel stays as well), bring your own microscope (paying through the nose to ship it and pray it doesn't break, or literally buy it an airplane seat), an average 40% first time pass rate, and is only offered once per year....and if you don't pass, good luck getting a job in diagnostic pathology which is what most of the people who have spent 4 years in vet school and then 3 in residency plan to do. It's absolutely crushing. No one is disagreeing with you there.

However, that being said, you are in absolutely no position to judge who should or should not be a vet because you have zero experience with the field other than your wife being a vet student. To say that you do is the epitome of the very arrogance you are accusing us of.

They are, however, quite happy to make snarky comments like "perhaps you need to see a learning specialist." Are you kidding me? You would actually say that to someone who graduated from the hell that is veterinary school? That's bottomless arrogance right there.

Secondly, how is this a snarky or arrogant suggestion? You are insinuating that having these issues is something to be looked down upon. Text anxiety and learning difficulties are real and serious problems. You apparently writing them off as people being snarky or arrogant when they are suggesting seeking help for real-life issues is disingenuous at best and insulting as worst.

I think I'm starting to see why the veterinary profession has such a problem with suicide when you can see yourselves as that perfect. It must be horrid when you actually have to deal with people and not a book or an exam and have your pompous world view shaken.

No one here has ever said they are perfect. Never. You are extrapolating and demonizing out of your own anger and bitterness.

Your policies have consequences, human ones. Either help out the ones who fall through the cracks or change what you're doing. People are going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt to get these degrees and suffering through the programs to get to the point where they can even take the exam. Have a little respect and take care of your own, even the ones who struggle at the end. Presently you do not.

There are tons of ways to help those who fall through the cracks. That is why there are multitudes of test preparation resources, programs to help improve study skills and reducing test anxiety, all sorts of things. But in the end we can't have the entire profession grind to a halt and reformat everything because of a tiny percentage of people who cannot pass a licensing exam.

If your goal here is to just continue to spew insults and conjecture, I suggest you go elsewhere.

If you want to have a civil discussion about the pros and cons of limited licensure, we can do that.

But it seems the entire reason you even registered for this forum is to hate on everyone who passed the exam because of your wife's difficulties. I'm sure you have better things to do with your time than that.
 
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Have you failed 4-5 times? Have you paid for the exam five times? Have you had to live with someone who fails that many times and had to deal with the crushing effects of it?

Have you ever sent an e-mail to the vet school you went to seeking help because you can't somehow pass this precious exam and get silence in return? That's just it, the people who push this thing really have no idea what to do with people who can't pass it and end up saddled with student debt from a degree they can do nothing with. It's all "Nothing to see here! Everything is great, we're in the 90th percentile!" They don't even want to acknowledge that there are people slipping through the exam who shouldn't while others who should pass, fail.

They are, however, quite happy to make snarky comments like "perhaps you need to see a learning specialist." Are you kidding me? You would actually say that to someone who graduated from the hell that is veterinary school? That's bottomless arrogance right there.

I think I'm starting to see why the veterinary profession has such a problem with suicide when you can see yourselves as that perfect. It must be horrid when you actually have to deal with people and not a book or an exam and have your pompous world view shaken.

Your policies have consequences, human ones. Either help out the ones who fall through the cracks or change what you're doing. People are going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt to get these degrees and suffering through the programs to get to the point where they can even take the exam. Have a little respect and take care of your own, even the ones who struggle at the end. Presently you do not.
Have you ever stopped and thought that maybe you don't know the history of the people you are speaking to on a veterinary forum? You have no idea what any of us have gone through other than what we have shared here.

It's unfortunate that her home institution isn't willing to help her. Does that mean all are like that? Nope. It reflects poorly on a school when this sort of thing happens.

Learning specialists can help those who have anxieties (even if they are from having to repeat THIS test multiple times) and using one is nothing to be ashamed of. They are simply another tool to make use of when you are struggling with something. Just because she made it through vet school means nothing about her ability to take tests or to learn material. It means she was able to do so for that vet school. But the NAVLE is a different beast.

I would wager nobody here sees themselves as perfect. And they are "our" policies. They are the AVMA's policies. You should direct your vitriol there if you really think the test is at fault. However, it seems like it may not JUST be the test that is the issue. Have you heard of personal responsibility? If not, you should look into it.

It's in poor taste to say you understand why there is a suicide problem because we see ourselves as perfect. Not only are you downplaying SUICIDE but your implication is that we deserve it. Think about that. You want us to support your spouse but continue to berate us, even when giving help.

Best of luck to your spouse. She obviously has a lot to deal with.
 
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They are, however, quite happy to make snarky comments like "perhaps you need to see a learning specialist." Are you kidding me? You would actually say that to someone who graduated from the hell that is veterinary school? That's bottomless arrogance right there.
How is this snarky at all? It's pure honest and good advice. Just because she passed veterinary school doesn't mean she's great at taking standardized tests, it's a completely different thing. Obviously it's not an avenue you or your wife are pursuing, whether due to pride or arrogance or whatever, but at this point I feel like you need to put those personal feelings aside and pursue any avenue that may help your wife pass it, rather than continuing to use resources or strategies that clearly are not working.

I'll say it again, we are not the enemy here. You're getting good advice, you're just choosing to ignore it or perceive it as insults. Have your wife come on this thread and read over the comments, let her know that we're here for her if she wants to bitch or rant about the system, let her know that some of us may have some good advice for how to change things up to make it work for her, but coming here and getting angry at us isn't going to help anyone.
 
Yes, I do have experience with that. I have had close friends who have had to take pathology boards anywhere from 3-5 times in order to pass all the sections. A 3-day, $800+ exam that you have to travel across the country for (so add costs for flights and hotel stays as well), bring your own microscope (paying through the nose to ship it and pray it doesn't break, or literally buy it an airplane seat), an average 40% first time pass rate, and is only offered once per year....and if you don't pass, good luck getting a job in diagnostic pathology which is what most of the people who have spent 4 years in vet school and then 3 in residency plan to do. It's absolutely crushing. No one is disagreeing with you there.

And guess what you need to have to get to that point? A passing NAVLE score and a license. There is a parachute there. Not so for anyone who fails the NAVLE.

However, that being said, you are in absolutely no position to judge who should or should not be a vet because you have zero experience with the field other than your wife being a vet student. To say that you do is the epitome of the very arrogance you are accusing us of.

Correction friend. My wife is a veterinary school graduate. Student days have been over for a while now.

It is a "paper test" that requires rote memorization. It does not test your clinical skills, it does not test your people skills, it does not test your ability to work under the real pressure of the working world. It tests your ability to take a test. Some test takers can pass, some can not. Some idiots are really good at taking tests. This test proves jack about you as a veterinarian. As I said that bears itself out as most veterinarians could not pass the test after 5 years in practice. They performed a brain dump and promptly forgot most of it all.

I'm going to guess this is the first time you've ever gotten flack over this isn't it? You've never had to really see the damage this does to the small percentage who don't make it multiple times or ever.

You're right, I have better things to do with my time. I mean hey, thanks to the NAVLE I get to pay on that student debt now too and I didn't even go through the program.

I am done with you.
 
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I'll say it again, we are not the enemy here. You're getting good advice, you're just choosing to ignore it or perceive it as insults. Have your wife come on this thread and read over the comments, let her know that we're here for her if she wants to bitch or rant about the system, let her know that some of us may have some good advice for how to change things up to make it work for her, but coming here and getting angry at us isn't going to help anyone.

After five times, if she fails, I doubt she'll try again.
 
It does not test your clinical skills, it does not test your people skills, it does not test your ability to work under the real pressure of the working world.
Nor is it intended to. See previous comments about the intention of the test. The things you describe, while very good to have in a vet, are not requirements of being one.
 
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