advice on dealing with PI/situation

[dragonfly99]

Hi.
first time post on this particular forum.
I am an MD with background of being a lab tech x 3 years before med school, and having done a residency. I'm now doing a research fellowship which is basically bench research, with a little bit of a clinical component.

Since I've been in this lab x 1.5 years, things have been going terrible from a science standpoint. I think this is due to multiple factors, the most important of which are
a) very, very difficult project that was assigned to me, that may in fact be impossible to do (not just my opinion, but others have agreed...very risky project)
b) project and its techniques are out of my area(s) of knowledge...heavy duty chemistry and biochem (mass spec, HPLC, chemical extractin techniques, etc.) whereas my background is medicine and basic bio lab techniques like cell culture, transfections, northern, southern, western blots, etc.
c) little communication between the PI and myself, and the PI's assigned PhD "lab manager" (who actually runs the show in terms of day to day lab operations) and the fact that both these people are stretched too thin. For example, I only get feedback about my project about Q6 weeks or so in a general lab meeting with 10 people there, but not really 1 on 1 meetings to any significant extent (unless you count 1 or 2 minute conversations in the hallway).

It's probably fruitless at this juncture, but I'd appreciate any input about what to do. I'm only going to be here another 5 months, so I think I'm hosed, but it's just disappointing to be getting crap or no results and wasting the government's money as well (since they are paying me).

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[StIGMA]

Personal opinion: demand time with the PI or the PhD. Voice your concern, and do not let them put other things before you. You have to be able to meet with them or nothing will happen.

One possibility: If your project will not come to completion in the next 5 months... if possible, switch to a project that is 'guaranteed,' uses mostly techniques you know, and that has a wealth of data waiting to be easily tapped. It would be better to get a paper out with low impact (if the project is less important) than to come out with nothing.

 

[Vader]

I agree with the above poster.

It probably was not the wisest idea to put you on a very risky/difficult project within a constrained time frame (2 years), at least not without giving you a bread-and-butter project to get the aforementioned "sure thing" lower impact paper. It also wasn't a great idea to give you that type of project if he isn't around to discuss data/problems/techniques/other issues (Q6 weeks is really not reasonable).

As the above poster mentioned, it is probably better to get something tangible out of the experience (i.e. a first-author paper). Have you made contributions to other projects going on in the lab? This can be a source of co-authorship on other papers at least. Also, be sure not to burn any bridges, as it is important to have the PI's recommendation/letter when the time comes.

If you are interested in a research career, have you considered extending the amount of time in the lab or changing labs?

 

[gbwillner]

Hi.
first time post on this particular forum.
I am an MD with background of being a lab tech x 3 years before med school, and having done a residency. I'm now doing a research fellowship which is basically bench research, with a little bit of a clinical component.

Since I've been in this lab x 1.5 years, things have been going terrible from a science standpoint. I think this is due to multiple factors, the most important of which are
a) very, very difficult project that was assigned to me, that may in fact be impossible to do (not just my opinion, but others have agreed...very risky project)
b) project and its techniques are out of my area(s) of knowledge...heavy duty chemistry and biochem (mass spec, HPLC, chemical extractin techniques, etc.) whereas my background is medicine and basic bio lab techniques like cell culture, transfections, northern, southern, western blots, etc.
c) little communication between the PI and myself, and the PI's assigned PhD "lab manager" (who actually runs the show in terms of day to day lab operations) and the fact that both these people are stretched too thin. For example, I only get feedback about my project about Q6 weeks or so in a general lab meeting with 10 people there, but not really 1 on 1 meetings to any significant extent (unless you count 1 or 2 minute conversations in the hallway).

It's probably fruitless at this juncture, but I'd appreciate any input about what to do. I'm only going to be here another 5 months, so I think I'm hosed, but it's just disappointing to be getting crap or no results and wasting the government's money as well (since they are paying me).

Change labs. You are seriously wasting your time.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Hi.
first time post on this particular forum.
I am an MD with background of being a lab tech x 3 years before med school, and having done a residency. I'm now doing a research fellowship which is basically bench research, with a little bit of a clinical component.

Since I've been in this lab x 1.5 years, things have been going terrible from a science standpoint. I think this is due to multiple factors, the most important of which are
a) very, very difficult project that was assigned to me, that may in fact be impossible to do (not just my opinion, but others have agreed...very risky project)
b) project and its techniques are out of my area(s) of knowledge...heavy duty chemistry and biochem (mass spec, HPLC, chemical extractin techniques, etc.) whereas my background is medicine and basic bio lab techniques like cell culture, transfections, northern, southern, western blots, etc.
c) little communication between the PI and myself, and the PI's assigned PhD "lab manager" (who actually runs the show in terms of day to day lab operations) and the fact that both these people are stretched too thin. For example, I only get feedback about my project about Q6 weeks or so in a general lab meeting with 10 people there, but not really 1 on 1 meetings to any significant extent (unless you count 1 or 2 minute conversations in the hallway).

It's probably fruitless at this juncture, but I'd appreciate any input about what to do. I'm only going to be here another 5 months, so I think I'm hosed, but it's just disappointing to be getting crap or no results and wasting the government's money as well (since they are paying me).

Hey,

Sorry to hear about your problem. You've been very helpful throughout the other forums and I hope you'll find useful advice here.

First off, I think the mentor is highly irresponsible in several ways. He ought to meet with you at least once every two weeks if you need it. You need to contact him to get this time, if need be, but he must be available. Second, he shouldn't have given you an insurmountable project. You're technically not ready for it and even if you were acquainted with all the techniques the project might fail anyway. He should get his paid technicians who don't have an intellectual/career interest in the project to execute it, if it is indeed executable. He should have given you a safe project that involves techniques that you already knew or were easily mastered.

I had a slightly similar experience in a protein crystallography/structure lab last summer. I joined it for the PhD and it was months and months of designing fusion constructs to express transmembrane proteins. Needless to say, they didn't work. I felt the mentor was putting me on a risky project that stood to waste me tons of time and I think he wanted to dump me on other risky projects after that. That's not OK for an MD/PhD, nor is it OK for a post-MD research fellowship. I switched labs to a safer project and a mentor with which I have a much better rapport.

At this point, you've lost most of your fellowship time on this, which is a real shame. What are your overall career goals? Doing clinical medicine or research? If research, you might want to request either an extension of the fellowship or a whole new post doc and switch labs now. I don't think much can be salvaged here. It was your mentor's duty to get you in touch with people who knew the techniques (like a proteomics core) a long time ago. If ultimately interested in the clinic, you might just want to quit the lab now, switch to clinics for the next 5 months and try to salvage what you can clinically from this.

 

[Neuronix]

I had a slightly similar experience in a protein crystallography/structure lab last summer. I joined it for the PhD and it was months and months of designing fusion constructs to express transmembrane proteins. Needless to say, they didn't work. I felt the mentor was putting me on a risky project that stood to waste me tons of time and I think he wanted to dump me on other risky projects after that. That's not OK for an MD/PhD, nor is it OK for a post-MD research fellowship. I switched labs to a safer project and a mentor with which I have a much better rapport.

I'm sorry Dragonfly. I don't have much to add that hasn't already been posted. I just want all the pre-MD/PhDs and new MD/PhD to pay attention to Firefly's story and mercapto's story. It happens all the time, and you need to try to avoid it.

But one thing, I also agree with the other questions--what are your career goals? If it is a research-based career, you'll just have to look at a couple more years of fellowship. Maybe in the same lab, maybe in a new one. I hate the people who act like "A few years of fellowship and you're set". The reality is fellowships often don't work out or yield enough data. For a research-based career you're looking at 5+ years in the lab.

If it's clinical, you might just wanna say screw it and go party for the next few months. I've seen a lot of research residents/fellows do this, and I honestly can't blame them when they get screwed or the hurdles just seem so ridiculous that a research career doesn't seem appealing anymore.

 

[greg12345]

You're screwed, which really is a non-issue if you would like to do a clinical career in private practice or even a clinician-educator track in academic medicine. If you are dead set on a research career, then you will have to do a post-doc somewhere - some place where you can have protected time with minimal clinical responsibilities (e.g. clinic half day a week) for another several years. Sorry it didn't work out, I've seen it happen to the best and brightest....unfortunately your mentor wasn't the right one.

 

[Joaquin]

Hi.
first time post on this particular forum.
I am an MD with background of being a lab tech x 3 years before med school, and having done a residency. I'm now doing a research fellowship which is basically bench research, with a little bit of a clinical component.

Since I've been in this lab x 1.5 years, things have been going terrible from a science standpoint. I think this is due to multiple factors, the most important of which are
a) very, very difficult project that was assigned to me, that may in fact be impossible to do (not just my opinion, but others have agreed...very risky project)
b) project and its techniques are out of my area(s) of knowledge...heavy duty chemistry and biochem (mass spec, HPLC, chemical extractin techniques, etc.) whereas my background is medicine and basic bio lab techniques like cell culture, transfections, northern, southern, western blots, etc.
c) little communication between the PI and myself, and the PI's assigned PhD "lab manager" (who actually runs the show in terms of day to day lab operations) and the fact that both these people are stretched too thin. For example, I only get feedback about my project about Q6 weeks or so in a general lab meeting with 10 people there, but not really 1 on 1 meetings to any significant extent (unless you count 1 or 2 minute conversations in the hallway).

It's probably fruitless at this juncture, but I'd appreciate any input about what to do. I'm only going to be here another 5 months, so I think I'm hosed, but it's just disappointing to be getting crap or no results and wasting the government's money as well (since they are paying me).

i have to say, this scenario actually seems pretty common for graduate students and post docs...i went through this myself. it sucked at the time.

however, i am curious what the PI is thinking...many times i doubted my own PI and my project. looking back, his plan was right on. i am actually thankful he was not shooting for a publication...but a major contribution. some PIs are just hands off. sorry, i'm not just trying to defend the PI...i do realize you have more time pressure than a phd student and your concern is very understandable.