advice--should I do FP?

[tawanda]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I'm currently an MS4 getting ready to make the plunge into applying for residency, and I'm just looking for some advice.

I really loved all of my rotations and am having an extremely difficult time choosing. When I was on my FP rotation I felt like I was "home." I really thought I'd go into Family Medicine. However, since then I've convinced myself out of it, for several reasons. The first is, I feel that many FPs eventually do what an internist does (mainly see older people) so my thought was, why not just do IM and get more training in adults?

I also really enjoy women's health, but not necessarily all of the surgery associated with it. I loved seeing pregnant patients, delivering babies, doing pap tests, colposcopy, etc. It seems like I could do some women's health in IM but not OB. I really don't think I'd be happy as an OB/GYN...I can't imagine not ever using my stethescope again and only thinking about one part of the body. However, it seems that it is pretty difficult to actually do OB as an FP due to liability issues, especially for someone like me, who will eventually end up in a city in Ohio most likely.

I enjoyed Peds, but sometimes found it boring (so many colds and well-child checks!) but I really enjoy seeing the occaisonal kid. I also think it would be awesome (in a perfect world) to deliver the baby and then have him or her as your patient as they grew up.

Finally, there are some external factors. I feel that I have some outside pressure as far as the $$ issue goes (I'm just trying to be honest here). It just seems so unfair to work as hard as I would and make a third of what some specialists make. It is really a shame that preventative care is not valued more in our society. I have decent scores and could probably do almost anything, but just because that is true doesn't mean I should by any means.

Basically, I'm mainly considering Internal medicine and much more remotely, Anesthesia (I know very different, but love the variety of patients, with some OB and some surgical issues just like in FP). But now I had a second thought about FP and think I'm being way too hard on it...it may actually be what I want to do. I'd love to hear how some of you decided on FP and what you think about what I said. Thanks!

 

[deleted87716]

First of all, I've never told anyone that they should or shouldn't pursue any particular specialty. That's up to you, and if anyone tries to tell you what to do, don't listen to them.

That being said, the money's pretty much the same in FM as it is in IM. I wouldn't even consider that a factor in choosing between the two.

If you don't like seeing almost exclusively older patients, I'm not sure why you're so interested in IM...that's pretty much all that you'll do. In fact, the only field in which you won't see a lot of older patients is pediatrics.

FM will give you more flexibility than any other specialty. If you're a woman, you're virtually guaranteed a steady stream of female patients, which will give you a great opportunity to become the doctor for the whole family.

How did I decide on FM? Well, I was always geared towards generalist fields. The idea of limiting myself to a single body system just bored me. To my mind, a "real doctor" knows something about everything. I didn't want to ever have to say, "Sorry, that's not my area."

I started out interested in EM, but quickly tired of the environment and schedule. I really saw myself being happiest in outpatient medicine, running my own practice, setting my own schedule, etc. I kicked around the idea of doing IM as a way of hedging my bets as far as specializing goes (even considered a combined FM/IM program), but decided against it in favor of the broader scope of training provided in FM. I have no regrets.

To my patients, I'm the doctor they can always get in to see right now. I'm the one who listens to them. I don't rush them. I won't pawn them off on a mid-level. Whatever their issue, I'll make sure it gets taken care of, no matter how big or how small. I like that. They like that. It's a win-win. 🙂

 

[burlypie]

wow, what a way to reaffirm my almost-solid decision to go into FM -- thanks!

...now let's see if I can channel this enthusiasm in to my personal statement 🙂

 

[iatrosB]

It's sounds as though you've already made your decision. I think it's naturally to question it, and I'm sure you'll question it again even after you match...good luck

 

[andwhat]

as I have heard, dont know if you saw the movie "Sicko"
but current move -- supposedly to go down in the next few years, is to cut down salaries and jobs of specialists, and that would encourage more medical students to consider primary care -- as there is a vast shortage of Primary Care physicians. Only downfall to that, is that there wont me more $$ thrown into primary care, just makes you wonder who is in charge of that sort of stuff up there.

 

[George85]

Tawanda,

There are many factors that should contribute to your decision, but from what little you have said I would advise you against FP.

You already mention the money issue - this is something that cannot be ignored by the majority of medical students - unless you are independently wealthy. You already realize that primary care is not valued - that's not going to change - the US system is specialist driven and primary care will become the domain of med-level providers. I would advise you to go into IM. From there you would be able to specialize if you wanted to and to persue primary care if you wanted to. It's a myth that IM cannot see peds - I work in an immediate care center and IM docs see kids and do womens health as well.

Kentw states "if anyone tries to tell you what to do, don't listen to them". I would have to disagree. You are in the unfortunate position of having to make an uninformed decision - that's what many MS 4's have to do - so listen to as many people as possible.

Kentw also states that the money's pretty much the same in FM as it is in IM. That's true in primary care. But from IM you will have the opportunity to be that specialist that you refer to who makes 2 to 3 times what a PCP makes. If you're in FM that option is not available. And as for "more flexibility than any other specialty", I'm not sure what he means - certainly not lifestyle - go into anesthesiology where 300k and 8 weeks of will give you a better work/life balance than any other area - and it's not that flexible in the work that you can do - in an urban area the specialists will not let you encroach on their turf.

AndWhat tells you that "there is a vast shortage of Primary Care physicians". Totally wrong. There is a movement within FM to dramatically cut the number of residency slots. Some people even talk about making a 4 year program - that will only hasten the demise of physicians in primary care. If there was a true shortage you would see that reflected by increasing salaries - and I don't mean 10% a year on $140k.

 

[iatrosB]

Tawanda,

There are many factors that should contribute to your decision, but from what little you have said I would advise you against FP.

You already mention the money issue - this is something that cannot be ignored by the majority of medical students - unless you are independently wealthy. You already realize that primary care is not valued - that's not going to change - the US system is specialist driven and primary care will become the domain of med-level providers. I would advise you to go into IM. From there you would be able to specialize if you wanted to and to persue primary care if you wanted to. It's a myth that IM cannot see peds - I work in an immediate care center and IM docs see kids and do womens health as well.

Kentw states "if anyone tries to tell you what to do, don't listen to them". Not good advice. You are in the unfortunate position of having to make an uninformed decision - that's what many MS 4's have to do - so listen to as many people as possible.

Kentw also states that the money's pretty much the same in FM as it is in IM. That's true in primary care. But from IM you will have the opportunity to be that specialist that you refer to who makes 2 to 3 times what a PCP makes. If you're in FM that option is not available. And as for "more flexibility than any other specialty", I'm not sure what he means - certainly not lifestyle - go into anesthesiology where 300k and 8 weeks of will give you a better work/life balance than any other area - and it's not that flexible in the work that you can do - in an urban area the specialists will not let you encroach on their turf.

AndWhat tells you that "there is a vast shortage of Primary Care physicians". Totally wrong. There is a movement within FM to dramatically cut the number of residency slots. Some people even talk about making a 4 year program - that will only hasten the demise of physicians in primary care. If there was a true shortage you would see that reflected by increasing salaries - and I don't mean 10% a year on $140k.

1. George is obsessed with anesthesiology 🙄

2. His whole post centers around monetary reasons not to go into FM 👎

 

[George85]

>>George is obsessed with anesthesiology
Amazed not obsessed. Amazed that an extra years training can make such a difference to lifestyle and earnings - yes, that nasty money thing again - you know, what we need to pay off those huge loans due to tuition fees that have increased for no reason other than greed - what we use to put out kids through college - what we use to pay the mortgage - how we fund our pension - etc. The original poster has already identified many of the issues surronding FM, inclusing that FM is not valued by society.

>>His whole post centers around monetary reasons not to go into FM
Hardly. I wouldn't advocate choosing based on money - unless that was your main motivator - but lets not ignore it, especially when the differential is so huge between FM and almost everyone else.

And I wouldn't advise the OP to listen to my advise - these forums are not the place to gain impartial advice to make career decisions on - s/he need to go and speak to real doctors doing real jobs and see what they say - and that includes ..... yes, the financial aspect.

As George was told when he lost his keys ..... "Yes (grunt) it's about the money.

 

[iatrosB]

And I wouldn't advise the OP to listen to my advise - these forums are not the place to gain impartial advice to make career decisions on - s/he need to go and speak to real doctors doing real jobs and see what they say - and that includes ..... yes, the financial aspect.

As George was told when he lost his keys ..... "Yes (grunt) it's about the money.

I absolutely agree that money should be considered.

But, at the end of the day, if 150,000+ is not enough to live comfortably and pay off the loans...you either took out too many loans or need to adjust your lifestyle.

Go into what you want. Money should be a factor in the decision, but to tell people that you don't make enough in FM and should pass gas to make more is silly.

Any doc will do just fine, some better than others, but if you're happy with the work, it won't matter.

 

[George85]

>>if 150,000+ is not enough to live comfortably and pay off the loans
>>you either took out too many loans or need to adjust your lifestyle.
Are you simply out of touch? $200k in loans isn't uncommon anymore - do you know how much it takes to service that sort of debt - most US seniors seem to know and that's reflected in the application numbers - compare 1997 to now.

Add to that the way property costs have risen and the outrageous property tax in many areas. It's not that 150 isn't enough to live in - it's why should I work harder for less - a lot less - than many/most of my collegues - something the OP has already identified.

>>Any doc will do just fine
Again, not true. Primary care docs often have to support offices on half the income than say an ortho office does, but with the same overhead - so when overheads increase the primary care doc has less margin to work with. And it's simply going to get worse with increasing numbers of urgent care clinics and doc-in-the-box clinics.

There is plenty of job satisfaction for FP's and some great jobs around - for example, rural MN, and WI, offers good scope of practice. But, the OP states that s/he will probably end up in an urban area. Also, the OP has identified enough of the issues with FM to make me think that they're not the selfless type who wants to dedicate themselves on moral or religious grounds. To go into FP in todays environment you need to be very certain of your reasons and motivation.

 

[andwhat]

deleted.

 

[iatrosB]

>>if 150,000+ is not enough to live comfortably and pay off the loans
>>you either took out too many loans or need to adjust your lifestyle.
Are you simply out of touch? $200k in loans isn't uncommon anymore - do you know how much it takes to service that sort of debt - most US seniors seem to know and that's reflected in the application numbers - compare 1997 to now.

Add to that the way property costs have risen and the outrageous property tax in many areas. It's not that 150 isn't enough to live in - it's why should I work harder for less - a lot less - than many/most of my collegues - something the OP has already identified.

>>Any doc will do just fine
Again, not true. Primary care docs often have to support offices on half the income than say an ortho office does, but with the same overhead - so when overheads increase the primary care doc has less margin to work with. And it's simply going to get worse with increasing numbers of urgent care clinics and doc-in-the-box clinics.

There is plenty of job satisfaction for FP's and some great jobs around - for example, rural MN, and WI, offers good scope of practice. But, the OP states that s/he will probably end up in an urban area. Also, the OP has identified enough of the issues with FM to make me think that they're not the selfless type who wants to dedicate themselves on moral or religious grounds. To go into FP in todays environment you need to be very certain of your reasons and motivation.

You keep trying to compare FM salaries with other specialties, and that is crap. If you don't enjoy 13 hour days in the OR, you don't care what the ortho doc makes. If you don't enjoy gas in the OR, you don't care how much they make (or how "little they work").

Point is, if you like FM, 150,000 is enough...and 200K can be paid off with that 150K...again, adjust your lifestyle. So you drive a chevy instead of a BMW, you're still happy at the end of the day.

You're the one that sounds out of touch in regards to loan payments and living situations.

 

[andwhat]

deleted

 

[sophiejane]

It's a myth that IM cannot see peds - I work in an immediate care center and IM docs see kids and do womens health as well.

I find this disturbing. How is a general internist qualified to see children? They have no pediatrics training in their residency program, so basically they are going with the knowledge of peds that they had from 3rd year medical school rotation.

That's hardly ethical. Just because I did a surgery rotation in 3rd year doesn't mean I can do lap choles unsupervised.

 

[andwhat]

deleted

 

[iatrosB]

This is exactly what I am saying, this is complete garbage and untrue -- in other words this is some dumb kid / troll undergraduate student trying to find arguments with nothing better to do, thats where this Anesthesiology $300 K thing comes from, very immature, and inaccurate.
It not only is unethical, it is untrue, you can lose your medical license if you do so I believe, correct me if I am mistaken. But only EM / FM / IM-Peds docs can do urgent care. This is not true what this kid is posting at all and whatsoever. Dude keep on applying to medical school, maybe you can get in. In Uganda that is. Dont let up keep on trying George
George85, who was born in 1985 -- the twelve year old kid, should not be roaming around posting garbage on medical forums.
I mean theres pros and cons to every specialty, this dumb kid is not posting accurate statements.

I don't think you'll lose your lisence. I think, "technically" you are physician and surgeon upon graduation...getting priviledges and ethics is another story, but I think strictly legally - you can.

 

[racerx]

my guess is that your ex girl was an FM doc, and she left you for some other person with brains and personality

Now, why can't we just debate like adults -- without the ad hominem attacks? Is that too much to ask?

Oh yeah, I guess it is. 👎

 

[George85]

AndWhat,

One of the most amusing posts I've seen in a while – reminded me of an Ali-G sketch - by the way YouTube has some great Ali-G clips.

>> George85, who was born in 1985
Nothing gets by you - Actually, George comes from my favorite character on Seinfeld, and 85 comes from the year my daughter was born.

>> either is a troll Undergraduate / High school student
Quite flattering actually. When I'm ready to take the MCAT I'll be asking you for advice on the writing section – your command of the English language seems somewhat unique.

>> what you are talking about, an Anesthesiologist easily making $300 K
Why don't you look at the article that KentW references in his thread "Family Medicine becoming more heavily recruited".

>>I am getting offers up to $200 K
Well, $90k qualifies as up to $200, so no surprise there.

>>some $250 K
Unlikely, again look at the Merrett Hawkins Report.

>>and even yes, $300 K in some areas and I am an FMR3
BS.

>>and I can very easily provide my job offers.
Go on then.

Are you smoking something?

>>and she left you for some other person with brains and personality
Counts you out then.

>>SophieJane, How is a general internist qualified to see children?
I was surprised myself. I have no idea how urgent care is regulated.

>>IatrosB, You keep trying to compare FM salaries with other specialties, and that is crap.
Clearly US seniors don't think so.

I attended a lecture last week by a FMed program director from an Ivy League Uni. The subject was the future of Family Medicine. Compensation figured heavily in his talk. He also addressed the idea of making the residency 4 years, and the need to close down the poor quality programs that fail to fill year after year.

 

[deleted87716]

I wouldn't advise the OP to listen to my advise

George, that's one thing that we both can agree upon. 😉

 

[George85]

>>KentW, that's one thing that we both can agree upon
You and me agree - now I'm starting to think you're smoking something as well!

The personal attacks don't bother me - I just wish they were of a higher quality - really, I shoot off my mouth often enough to provide enough ammo for those with enough intellect to give me a run for my money. As for AndWhat - I'm not convinced that he's not just winding me up - is he the Ali-G of the FMed forum? I don't believe such a reply is for real.

 

[George85]

>>AndWhat - correct me if I am mistaken.
Ok ..... you're wrong.

>>George85, who was born in 1985 -- the twelve year old kid
Now I know this is "taking the piss" - even my maths isn't this bad after "a skin full".

 

[iatrosB]

>>IatrosB, You keep trying to compare FM salaries with other specialties, and that is crap.
Clearly US seniors don't think so.

Can't argue with that.

 

[iatrosB]

AndWhat,

One of the most amusing posts I’ve seen in a while – reminded me of an Ali-G sketch - by the way YouTube has some great Ali-G clips.

I love Ali-G!

Steve Nash - MP3

 

[andwhat]

ok

 

[andwhat]

deleted

 

[George85]

You mentioned 300k, and told me to PM you for proof. So, I PM'd you and asked you to prove it. I have read your rambling reply to my PM. I won't post it here as you have a reasonable expectation to privacy.

Needless to say, you have not shown any details regarding such offers - made to yourself or anyone else in Family Medicine. In your PM you reiterate your claim that you were made an offer of over 300k. You asked me not to PM you again, so I won't.

Quite simply you are a liar - in case you don't understand, a lie is a false statement deliberately presented as being true; something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

I don't agree with using these forums to make personal attacks, but this does bring up two important issues. Honesty and integrity. These are desirable qualities in everyone, but vital in a physician. The relative anonymity offered by these forums does not excuse you from being honest.

I sincerely hope you are not an R3 in family medicine. We have enough issues without unleashing someone such as yourself under the banner of Family Medicine. After reading your PM I'm starting to suspect your incoherent posts are not meant as jokes. That being the case, you really do need to speak to someone - I'm not being vindictive - I'm trying to see through the anger and bitterness you exude - do you have any compassion in your soul or are you simply consumed with hate and jealousy?

>>40 to 50
At least your maths has improved.

 

[iatrosB]

I suggest everyone calm down and stop personal attacks...otherwise you'll force Kent's hand, or worse Sophie's

 

[andwhat]

deleted

 

[iatrosB]

hmm, well at least the forum has some life...that's a good start

 

[andwhat]

deleted

 

[iatrosB]

Exactly, I just noticed that also, lol alot of viewers... well viewers should know this
YOU CAN START OUT IN FAMILY MEDICINE OUT OF RESIDENCY AT $200 K AND MORE IF YOU PLAY YOUR CARDS CORRECTLY, if you are good at time management, business, etc.
Actually Kent is the moderator of this forum. He is in Primary Care as I understand, if I am just making up stories, and lying, as George depicts, then I am sure that Kent would correct me. As the moderator of this forum, I am sure that if I was "lying" about job offers of $200 K or more, then I would be quickly corrected. But mr. Adament George wants to prove that he is correct, and he states that you only make $90 K or less in Family Medicine, and that CRNAs make MUCH more than Family Medicine docs. And that even though Ortho docs work 12 hours a day in the OR, and also see patients in the same day, that they are much better, because on PAPER they make more, even though their malpractice is much higher, and they pay more overhead, plus the hours and work proportionately is harder.
Well I do not know what this 60 year old George character is going to do or say next, but I am going to call for an end to this nonsense, you win George, actually you are the MAN George!

You're preaching to the choir here bro.

But seriously, i know it's annoying to hear smack talk of FM, but don't attack someone personally...let the numbers and facts you know to be true stand for themselves.

 

[andwhat]

deleted

 

[andwhat]

Job Finder - Family Practice - with Obstetrics - Please Reference Job # +++++

$175K Starting Salary + Production With Easy Access to Louisville & Evansville! $175K Starting Salary + Production * $25K Sign On Bonus Traditional Inpatient Work * Employed Opportunity * Full Benefits To Include:
Paid Relocation, Malpractice, Vacation, CME, Retirement




Practice Type: Single Specialty
Inpatient: Traditional
Relocation Expenses
Production Bonus



this is just ONE of SEVERAL opportunities, and theres opportunity to make even more than $200 K, each of the docs that I am working with currently are FM , and netting close to that also, and they are NOT doing Ob Gyn, and they are doing Vasectomies, they are going to do Stress tests soon as well, and minimal hospital work -- that will rack up some extra change for sure, some FM docs that incorporate Nuclear Med make up to half a million per year, NO JOKE.....
My goodness Mr. George, that job offer above, its for working 4 days per week. Yes 4 days per week and that salary.

This is in SHARP contrast with IM without specialization, OUCH

""ALL OUTPATIENT OPPORTUNITY! Practice Details: Growing multi-specialty group with approximately 55 physicians and 10 specialties seeking a BE/BC Internist for an all outpatient opportunity near Hartford, CT Join two other experienced Internists. Phone call of 1:3. Two year track to partnership. Access to state of the art equipment. Compensation: * Guaranteed salary for the first two years starting at $115K until partner status is acheived. * Competitive benefits package including 4 ...
Near Hartford, CT, CT 06076""

 

[andwhat]

""Quite simply you are a liar - in case you don't understand, a lie is a false statement deliberately presented as being true; something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression."" George's comments about me

Paworld Net Physician Assistant in Detroit, MI $103,000
Pennsylvania Family Practice Sjx in Detroit, MI $143,000
Physician Family Practice in Detroit, MI $189,000 Nurse Practitioners Physician Assistant in Detroit, MI $70,000
LPN Primary Care in Detroit, MI $54,000
Family Practice Physician in Detroit, MI $179,000
California Family Practice Llx in Detroit, MI $255,000
Florida Family Practice Llx in Detroit, MI $155,000 Physician Family & General in Detroit, MI $177,000
Senior RN in Detroit, MI $57,000
LPN Home Care in Detroit, MI $41,000

Additional salary resources: Salary.com

STOP LYING ANDWHAT!!



Arlington HealthCare
Family Practice
Mountain View, Missouri Job ID: 287009
Last Updated: December 22, 2006



Description:
Practice Near the Mark Twain National Forest Practice Details: Located 2 hours (100 miles) east of Springfield. Enjoy an enviable cost of living and a high quality of life in your new practice in the Ozarks. *Clinic has 2 F/P's, 2 NP's and 1 P/A *Opportunity can be traditional or all outpatient as there is a Hospitalist on site. * Call is shared by the group Compensation: * The salary of a newly recruited physician is guaranteed. A physician can earn more than the guaranteed amount, but not less. One of the providers there is earning $300K by seeing 25-30 patients per day. * Nursing Home Directorship available with a $12K annual bonus. *This is a rural health clinic, so reimbursements are strong. * Loan repay; 25, 25,35,35 plus taxes paid by SJHS as income is realized, sign bonus, and much more. * Sign on bonus available Hospital and Group Information: ,

well I dont know about you George, but that certainly pays my bills. You wanted numbers, and facts, and I can provide more and more if you want.

 

[andwhat]

Job Description: Join a thriving multi-specialty group that needs Family Practitioners! Enjoy hallway consults and in-house ancillaries! Focus on quality patient care and not the headaches of running a practice! Live in an area that is frequented by tourists! 1 year partnership track! Practice in a community that is 30 minutes from a World Class Beach! Dont stop reading. Recent manpower studies have shown an acute need for a Family Practitioner. This opportunity gives you the income and quality of life you have been looking for. Practice: For 51 years, this practice has had the most comprehensive outpatient medical facility in the region. Community: Enjoy the subtropical climate with mild winters that draws tourists from all over North America. The wildlife and beauty of the land are creating an ecotourism industry. Enjoy World Class Resorts, Five-star dining and shopping! This community takes pride in providing top-notch pubic and private education as well as providing a safe community. Compensation: You have the ability to make in the Top 1% of your specialty! This opportunity provides a competitive first year salary with the opportunity to become a partner in one year! Benefit from the practice ancillaries that increase your income potential. Family Practitioners making $300k annually in the Southwest Coast Area! Occupational Medicine Cardiac Holter Monitoring Ultrasound Cardiac Stress Testing Minor Surgery and Emergency Care Computerized Tomography (CT) Prescription Refill Diabetes Maintenance Patient Services Echocardiography Pulmonary Function Testing g Electrocardiography (EKG) This highly desirable community and practice opportunity will quickly fill. For immediate consideration, please contact +++ +++++ and reference#+++++++ at ---, extension +++ or email your CV at C+++++++++++++++++++

APPLICATION INFORMATION

Medical Center is seeking to employ an Outpatient Physician wherein hospitalist program will handle call and inpatients. Earnings are expected to reach upwards of $190K. There are no weekend hours but malpractice & tail coverage are paid!
This community is known for it natural beauty and offers an abundance of outdoor recreational opportunities. Situated in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains, boating, fishing, hiking and camping are favorite pastimes enjoyed by its residents. Cultural amenities are also plentiful where art galleries and museums abound. The independent school district has compiled a planning committee which includes not only school administrators and teachers, but also parents and community members. They have set up a long range plan that is based on the desire to educate all children to the highest level of their potential, the necessity to use an appropriate curriculum to assure this level of student achievement and the willingness to change to meet opportunities and challenges for the children. This is truly a community working together.


Inpatient: None
Call Ratio: None
Relocation Expenses
Production Bonus


Contact our Family Practice specialist, or submit an inquiry for this position.

 

[andwhat]

""Quite simply you are a liar - in case you don't understand, a lie is a false statement deliberately presented as being true; something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.""

I dunno, does this prove yet that I am not a liar?

$250,000 PROVEN NET INCOME UNIVERSITY TOWN!!!!! LIMITED 1/5 CALL or BETTER!

FP GROUP/$250K – UNIVERSITY TOWN

""Whether relocating a family or just yourself… whether looking for vibrant night life or quiet tranquility… whether you prefer the outdoors or a catching a show…or maybe you enjoy a little of each…this opportunity has something FOR YOU!!!

Quality of Practice: Join an established, well respected physician-run network which is building a brand new clinic in the fastest growing part of town. According to the network's administrator, "It's simple; we need to put a clinic where the homes are being built". This unique Urgent Care/Family Medicine model provides new physicians with the most efficient way to build their practice. Every family medicine doctor in the network came in on this model, and all built their practices faster than the national average and are enjoying unmatched financial and professional success.

Quality of life: You will work a flexible schedule, and see as many patients as you choose. Additionally you will enjoy a call schedule of 1/5 or better, while admitting to a State of the Art 260 bed medical facility that recently underwent a $110 Million dollar expansion. This Magnet facility is home to an excellent nursing staff and Hospitalist program, which only adds to the quality of life enjoyed by these physicians.

Income: With an incentive based compensation model, you have complete control of your earnings. Top producers see 35 to 45 patients per day and earn $250,000 per year; and no one makes less than $200,000. Additionally, you will have ample vacation time, CME, paid malpractice and access to phenomenal benefits including health insurance and an excellent retirement plan.

Location: Over 250,000 people call this booming university town home. The wooded, undulating landscapes seem to swallow the large brick and stone homes that line these city streets. With an enrollment of more than 20,000 students, this town is home to one of the top universities in the country. With a history of both academic and athletic success, this university creates the type of buzz and daily excitement only be found in college towns.

Those successes permeate through the local school systems, providing your children with the best in private or public education. Located only 40 miles from another college town of more than 500,000 people, this community will provide all the amenities you will ever need. Fine dining, theater, opera, live music, plays and night life are at your finger tips…or maybe a quiet night by the fire with a good book and your favorite wine is more like it. If the outdoors is your passion, then you will not be disappointed in the hunting, fishing, golf, cycling or other activities available for your entertainment.

If you are at all interested I would suggest calling now, before someone else takes the position first!!!""

Does this prove my point yet?

George's comments below ---

>>if 150,000+ is not enough to live comfortably and pay off the loans
>>you either took out too many loans or need to adjust your lifestyle.
Are you simply out of touch? $200k in loans isn't uncommon anymore - do you know how much it takes to service that sort of debt - most US seniors seem to know and that's reflected in the application numbers - compare 1997 to now.

certainly $200 - $300 K a year can help out with this George

Add to that the way property costs have risen and the outrageous property tax in many areas. It's not that 150 isn't enough to live in - it's why should I work harder for less - a lot less - than many/most of my collegues - something the OP has already identified

Again George, FM docs can make between $200 K and $300 K if proper and appropriate business principles are in order. I am still in shock that a 50 or 60 something year old man can act and behave in this rude and unbelievable manner. It is terrible and truly.

 

[Miami_med]

This is exactly what I am saying, this is complete garbage and untrue -- in other words this is some dumb kid / troll undergraduate student trying to find arguments with nothing better to do, thats where this Anesthesiology $300 K thing comes from, very immature, and inaccurate.
It not only is unethical, it is untrue, you can lose your medical license if you do so I believe, correct me if I am mistaken. But only EM / FM / IM-Peds docs can do urgent care. This is not true what this kid is posting at all and whatsoever. Dude keep on applying to medical school, maybe you can get in. In Uganda that is. Dont let up keep on trying George
George85, who was born in 1985 -- the twelve year old kid, should not be roaming around posting garbage on medical forums.
I mean theres pros and cons to every specialty, this dumb kid is not posting accurate statements.
George, just because you didnt get into medical school, that doesnt mean that your not special as far as being a person. You have your own George attributes! Keep on shining and maintaining that positive image of yourself George! Remember, just keep on try try try trying!

Even unboarded physicians do urgent care all the time. In fact, that is what most of them do. It is perfectly ethical for IM to do urgent care. It is perfectly legal for any physician to act within the context of any specialty (except for maybe Rad Onc, because you need a special license to use all of those fancy toys).

 

[andwhat]

Even unboarded physicians do urgent care all the time. In fact, that is what most of them do. It is perfectly ethical for IM to do urgent care. It is perfectly legal for any physician to act within the context of any specialty (except for maybe Rad Onc, because you need a special license to use all of those fancy toys).

thanks I didnt know that. I also know of an Ob - Gyn doc doing Urgent Care on the east coast.

 

[deleted87716]

i know it's annoying to hear smack talk of FM, but don't attack someone personally...let the numbers and facts you know to be true stand for themselves.

That's pretty much my stance on the subject.

It's pretty obvious to most people who read this forum who's posting reliable information and who's not. The personal attacks add nothing to the discussion.

 

[George85]

andWhat,
>>This psycho has been PMing me
I sent you a single PM, at your request, (>>Like I said, pm me you ******) and this was it:

++>>and even yes, $300 K in some areas
++BS.
++>>and I can very easily provide my job offers.
++Go on then.

>> no way didnt attack him personally
So, ****** and psycho are simply terms of endearment?

And in your incoherent, rambling, reply you stated:
"… but yes I did receive an offer that was actually OVER $300 K."

Now you say "I have job offers near $200 K and more" and "…and have seen job offers up to $300 K - but not starting out".

So, let me see if I understand. You have seen jobs advertised by agencies that mention $300k. These jobs are not for people starting out – such as an R3 – which may, or may not, be you. Even so, you claim to have had an offer of $300k. I'm not even sure that you understand how the job process even works. You have an interview, and then you get an offer. An advert from an agency is not an offer, to you or anyone else. Then, in your usual ranting fashion, you start dumping job listings into your post – these are not offers.

>>FM docs that incorporate Nuclear Med make up to half a million per year
Now it's up to half a mill – is this something you've seen in a mag, or simply another offer you turned down?

>>FP's can see patients four days a week in Urgent Care, get compensated in the >>$200 K range
Again, you have no clue. Urgent care does not pay that well. In fact, many of them employ NP's instead of FP/IM docs to keep costs down. I work in an urgent care clinic part-time and the NP's have the same scope of practice as FP's.

As iatrosB said "...let the numbers and facts you know to be true stand for themselves." Again, take a look at the Merrett Hawkins Report.

You seem unable to separate fact from fiction. This is unfortunate, as the OP was simply looking for a little information to help contribute towards an informed decision. Instead, all s/he got was a tirade of disjointed rantings from you – so much of what you have stated is in direct conflict with the the Merrett Hawkins Report. And, when others look at this sort of thread and see your inability to construct a reply – from a logical or grammatical perspective – it will simply reinforce the negative view that many hold regarding Family Medicine.

 

[sophiejane]

I don't have the time or patience or desire to read this whole thread, but when I start seeing the words "******" and "BS" it makes me think we've slid downhill and this is no longer a collegial discussion.

Will defer to Kent, but I'd say if we don't reconnect with our inner civility soon, it's going to be closing time.

 

[sophiejane]

Again, you have no clue. Urgent care does not pay that well. In fact, many of them employ NP’s instead of FP/IM docs to keep costs down. I work in an urgent care clinic part-time and the NP’s have the same scope of practice as FP’s.

There are graduates of my program making >250K a year in urgent care in a nearby metropolitan area which shall remain nameless (am I stealth with the whole anonymity thing, or what??).

It happens. Sorry it's not been your experience.

 

[andwhat]

I don't have the time or patience or desire to read this whole thread, but when I start seeing the words "******" and "BS" it makes me think we've slid downhill and this is no longer a collegial discussion.

Will defer to Kent, but I'd say if we don't reconnect with our inner civility soon, it's going to be closing time.

I do apologize for this inconvenience, and you are correct. The underlying problem, is that this character is trying desperately to belittle family medicine, without any numbers or basis. Just read all of his posts, they are all reflective of his hostile temperament -- he argues with everyone all over the Family Medicine boards. I have presented the facts. Numbers dont lie. This guy is trying desperately to fight everyone on all of the Family Medicine boards. He has even PM ed me begging for me to share my job offers with him, which are given in confidentiality. I know of Urgent Care docs that I went to med school with making close to, and over $245 K and I will interview at those places soon. I think that I am guilty somewhat of encouraging this person to post more, because the more facts that I presented, the more outraged and belligerent he has become -- similar to a wounded animal. Something to do with denial, and it hurts to see the truth revealed. It is not about money, in any profession or career. It is true that in general Primary Care does remain an underappreciated field, such as preventive medicinal aspects, however you can still make a good living and very good money. Again, the docs whom I am referring to, are ER docs that are doing Urgent Care, Family Practice docs, and IM / Peds. IM without specialization do not work in the centers in which I am referring to. Perhaps that is the reason for the difference in opportunity available.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

George,

It is not wise for an anesthesiologist, of all people, to declare how another medical field is going to be made obsolete by midlevels. 😉

 

[andwhat]

George,

It is not wise for an anesthesiologist, of all people, to declare how another medical field is going to be made obsolete by midlevels. 😉

yes he dreams that he could have been an Anesthesiologist... that is why he is so bitter.

 

[racerx]

Jeebus F-ing Chr!st!!! Would everyone grow up and cease the schoolyard crap already?! This childish $h!t isn't exactly a great advertisement for any specialty.👎

Kent,
Please tell me that this petty penis-measuring and bashing is the exception and not the norm in FM circles. 🙁 Up to this point all the FM docs I've had the pleasure of meeting were nice, easygoing folks. This throws my observations (albeit anecdotal) into question.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

Jeebus F-ing Chr!st!!! Would everyone grow up and cease the schoolyard crap already?! This childish $h!t isn't exactly a great advertisement for any specialty.👎

Kent,
Please tell me that this petty penis-measuring and bashing is the exception and not the norm in FM circles. 🙁 Up to this point all the FM docs I've had the pleasure of meeting were nice, easygoing folks. This throws my observations (albeit anecdotal) into question.

I think people were just riled up by the troll who came through here.

Don't worry... despite the flamewars in this thread, you are right about your observation that FM attracts some of the most easygoing people in the field. I'm on my FM rotation right now and have yet to meet any doc in the field who does not have a sense of humor about the job and life, and who doesn't place personal interactions over the minutae of basic science and the technical details.

This is not a field for "hardcore" personalities.

Admittedly, hardcores have their place in medicine... in the OR, and in the radiology reading room 🙄 ... but such personalities generally shy away from primary care in general and FM in particular.

 

[George85]

Sophiejane
>>There are graduates of my program making >250K a year in UC
I have never pretended that my experience is anything but limited and I'm always happy to listen and learn from others. I tend to believe what people say unless it's obvious that they havn't got a clue – such as quoting figures without enough sense to read a report that's already been referenced.

As for andWhat – he stated that he is an R3 and had an offer for 300K. The Merrell Hawkins report, coupled with his inability to write a coherent sentence made that unlikely. I called him on it. He said he could prove it. I called him on that. That brought no answers - simply rambling and ranting posts with a few insults thrown in.

ForbiddenComma
>>It is not wise for an anesthesiologist …
Don't know where you got that idea. I'm an R3 fam med resident, quite happy with my choice of FMed, which I chose for very specific reasons. I believe in primary care – I just don't believe pretending that everything is ok and it's all going to get better is going to help matters. You can't start to fix a problem until you recognize and accept the problem. While primary care becomes more marginalized so the specialists become more specialized, turning these MD's from physicians into very skilled technicians. Left to run it's course, US health care will have mid-levels providing triage, and technicians (with MD's) performing countless unnecessary procedures on a demanding population, most of whom refuse to take responsibility for their own health - for example, the US is the most obese nation on the planet, something that a strong primary care system could help address - but, instead lets perform bariatric surgery or give alcoholics $300k livers - while a large percentage of the population goes without basic health and dental care.

I also don't believe in deceiving others regarding the state of fam med. As I stated earlier, to go into FP in today's environment you need to be very certain of your reasons and motivation. I felt that the OP demonstrated enough doubts that FP wouldn't be a good choice – simply my opinion. I felt quite comfortable offering my opinion because the title of the OP was "advice – should I do FP?"

 

[Frijolero]

ForbiddenComma
>>It is not wise for an anesthesiologist …
Don't know where you got that idea. I'm an R3 fam med resident, quite happy with my choice of FMed, which I chose for very specific reasons. I believe in primary care – I just don't believe pretending that everything is ok and it's all going to get better is going to help matters. You can't start to fix a problem until you recognize and accept the problem. While primary care becomes more marginalized so the specialists become more specialized, turning these MD's from physicians into very skilled technicians. Left to run it's course, US health care will have mid-levels providing triage, and technicians (with MD's) performing countless unnecessary procedures on a demanding population, most of whom refuse to take responsibility for their own health - for example, the US is the most obese nation on the planet, something that a strong primary care system could help address - but, instead lets perform bariatric surgery or give alcoholics $300k livers - while a large percentage of the population goes without basic health and dental care.

I also don't believe in deceiving others regarding the state of fam med. As I stated earlier, to go into FP in today's environment you need to be very certain of your reasons and motivation. I felt that the OP demonstrated enough doubts that FP wouldn't be a good choice – simply my opinion. I felt quite comfortable offering my opinion because the title of the OP was "advice – should I do FP?"

Right on with what I bolded, I agree with you wholeheartedly. The thing is, as you willingly point out, that FM isn't the only specialty with battles to fight in the future. To avoid the field for the reasons you mention ignores the fact that every other field is facing a similar situation. My colleagues who are chosing gas and rads and openly admit they are doing it for the money are in for a rude awakening. That gravy train won't go on forever; the hammer will come down. In FM, for the most part, you already know what you're getting yourself into. Clearly you chose the field for reasons you are choosing not to mention, perhaps sharing those would be enlightening.

Off of the topic, I think you are largely blame-free with regards to the playground fighting with andwhat. I don't know what, if anything, was going on behind the scenes, but all I saw was your cogent posts and his reactionary craziness.

 

[deleted87716]

I've left the thread open because it's actually managed to stay on-topic despite the distracting name-calling, which I'd like to see cease. It's a good discussion, aside from that.