Advising URM's

[affected]

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Disclaimer:
I know this is my first post and that may flag me as a troll, but I registered just to ask this question, which is a real concern. Please play nice.

This is a question directed toward people who self-identify as minorities:
Suppose your professor was talking to you about med school admissions, and was explaining how competitive it has gotten, and how, to gain admission in big city X, you should aim for a 35 on the MCAT, to be on the "safe" side.
Suppose the same professor also adds that if you self-identify as a minority, and wish to claim that minority status, then you could possibly be ok with a score that's quite a bit lower.

Is this professor being hostile/discriminatory/offensive?

Again, please play nice....

 

[hippocraticoath]

Disclaimer:
I know this is my first post and that may flag me as a troll, but I registered just to ask this question, which is a real concern. Please play nice.

This is a question directed toward people who self-identify as minorities:
Suppose your professor was talking to you about med school admissions, and was explaining how competitive it has gotten, and how, to gain admission in big city X, you should aim for a 35 on the MCAT, to be on the "safe" side.
Suppose the same professor also adds that if you self-identify as a minority, and wish to claim that minority status, then you could possibly be ok with a score that's quite a bit lower.

Is this professor being hostile/discriminatory/offensive?

Again, please play nice....

Yes, report him immediately to the department chair or the omnsbudman.

 

[chman]

Well, there are other factors; such as how well you know this professor, what kind of personality the professor has, attitude toward you in the past, other racial remarks. But in my opinion he/she was probably trying to be helpful and it came out somewhat wrong. But without being there I can't really tell you one way or the other. It is true that adcoms may overlook lower scores in order to get an under represented group into the medical community.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I mean, he's right. That's definitely not the most appropriate thing to say and will vary dramatically in offensiveness depending on how he phrased it, but as you presented it, it doesn't sound like something I'd go out of my way to jeopardize his job for.

 

[chman]

Yes, report him immediately to the department chair or the omnsbudman.

How do you know? You were not there nor do you know anything about this person. Is it not possible that this person was trying to be helpful by encouraging someone to apply and did not articulate his/her thoughts very well?

 

[Zona Pellucida]

Ummmm. Seriously?

He's doing his job. Official AAMC charts show that minorities have a higher chance of an acceptance with lower stats in terms of GPA and MCAT. It's fact and not discriminatory in the least.

 

[298609]

Yes, report him immediately to the department chair or the omnsbudman.

i want to give you a thumbs down just for using the word ombudsman.

 

[affected]

Ummmm. Seriously?

He's doing his job. Official AAMC charts show that minorities have a higher chance of an acceptance with lower stats in terms of GPA and MCAT. It's fact and not discriminatory in the least.

Well, that's what I tend to think. But I could very well be biased because the prof is my hubby. And neither of us grew up in this country, so we probably don't understand race relations very well. So I'm genuinely interested in the perspective of URM's...

 

[Zona Pellucida]

Well, that's what I tend to think. But I could very well be biased because the prof is my hubby. And neither of us grew up in this country, so we probably don't understand race relations very well. So I'm genuinely interested in the perspective of URM's...

Try this link.

Your husband could print off the charts for the various ethnic groups provided by AAMC and simply present the data which will not come off as racially insensitive at all.

 

[WhizoMD]

it'd annoy me a bit, but it is a statement that's backed up by data so you can't really be offended. But, it's generally not a good idea for someone in that position to suggest that selling yourself short is okay. I'd sort of get a subconscious feeling that the professor thought I was incapable, even if that weren't the case.

-edit-
I meant this in the case of a professor, I wouldn't feel the same way if it were just an adviser

 

[morning]

There's a difference between racist and thoughtless. In this economic climate, I wouldn't try to jeopardize anyone's job without a strong reason...they probably won't be able to find another one again.

 

[affected]

Try this link.

Your husband could print off the charts for the various ethnic groups provided by AAMC and simply present the data which will not come off as racially insensitive at all.

Thank you. My husband was going by these precise stats - he was not guessing or making stuff up.
But I am wondering if this is besides the point. I am wondering if I am missing something in the whole race relationships issue. It's already been hinted at here, but I'm not sure I quite understand: Could anyone explain what, exactly, the faux-pas is here? Would it ever be ok to mention the stats, or are they best left undiscussed? And when it's not ok, is it merely a matter of making someone uncomfortable, or are we talking about a more serious "sin?" Any URM's out there feeling comfortable enough to discuss this, please try to enlighten me...

 

[affected]

it'd annoy me a bit, but it is a statement that's backed up by data so you can't really be offended. But, it's generally not a good idea for someone in that position to suggest that selling yourself short is okay. I'd sort of get a subconscious feeling that the professor thought I was incapable, even if that weren't the case.

-edit-
I meant this in the case of a professor, I wouldn't feel the same way if it were just an adviser

Thank you. This is the sort of reply that I was looking for. It helps.

 

[Elpenor]

There is nothing wrong with this at all.

I can't believe I even bothered to reply.

 

[Narmerguy]

I think that the professor would be correct because the data shows that he is correct. However, it's how he says it that could get him in trouble. If he is suggesting that the student, because he/she is a minority, is less likely to be able to fulfill the 35 mcat score etc, obviously that's a problem. Also, like someone else suggested, it is a frustrating stance to take because a professor telling any student that he doesn't have to try hard or that he has some kind of unfair advantage over all the other students will likely make that student feel uncomfortable and/or offended.

 

[Elpenor]

feel uncomfortable and/or offended.

Protection from being offended is not a right.

You are all a bunch of wussies, seriously.

 

[affected]

Protection from being offended is not a right.

You are all a bunch of wussies, seriously.

Thanks for participating, but, please, play nice. I was asking for input and s/he went out of her/his way to give it. (Plus, no one implied it was a right.)

 

[affected]

I think that the professor would be correct because the data shows that he is correct. However, it's how he says it that could get him in trouble. If he is suggesting that the student, because he/she is a minority, is less likely to be able to fulfill the 35 mcat score etc, obviously that's a problem. Also, like someone else suggested, it is a frustrating stance to take because a professor telling any student that he doesn't have to try hard or that he has some kind of unfair advantage over all the other students will likely make that student feel uncomfortable and/or offended.

Point taken. It depends on context, manner of speaking, etc. The problem seems to be that these things are often open to interpretation. In this specific case, it was a matter-of-factly conversation (or so the prof thought) in a college that has no pre-health advising whatsoever. However, it was still misinterpreted (something which leaves several people baffled.) It makes me wonder if is it is ever ok to speak of such issues. Is it? Someone suggested profs should just steer clear of these issues and leave them up to advisors. Does that still hold when no advising exists?

 

[MilkmanAl]

Americans tend to be hypersensitive to all racial issues. It's a serous pain in the butt most of the time, as you're finding out. If you want to play it safe, it's probably best to act just not bring up ethnicity when qualifications arise. Basically, it'd be easiest for him if he just gave the minority students different advice based on how things work instead of stating the reality outright. Interestingly, that's exactly the kind of racism - the subtle, outwardly socially acceptable kind - all the bleeding hearts are trying to avoid yet end up fostering by crucifying people who try to describe things as they are. Go figure.

 

[bannie22]

sew his mouth up???

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Good way of saying it: "Hey even though you don't meet the GPA/MCAT requirements for this school you should still apply because you represent a group that is seriously underrepresented in medicine, making your interest in medicine valuable enough that they will look past your small .2 GPA deficiency, etc."

Bad way of saying it: "Don't worry that you scored so low on the MCAT. You're black/hispanic/native american so you don't need high stats anyways 🙄"

Best way of saying it: (like others have said) "Hey look at this AAMC chart I found, your chances are really good at *insert school name*."

Putting someone's job on the line for something like that though...really not very nice :/
A confrontation would probably be good enough if he's being THAT offensive

 

[mipp0]

Americans tend to be hypersensitive to all racial issues. It's a serous pain in the butt most of the time, as you're finding out. If you want to play it safe, it's probably best to act just not bring up ethnicity when qualifications arise. Basically, it'd be easiest for him if he just gave the minority students different advice based on how things work instead of stating the reality outright. Interestingly, that's exactly the kind of racism - the subtle, outwardly socially acceptable kind - all the bleeding hearts are trying to avoid yet end up fostering by crucifying people who try to describe things as they are. Go figure.

Damning minorities with real racial concerns as "hypersensitive" is ridiculous. I've had a professor refer to his students in a racial slur, and though he didn't mean to offend, many were offended. There are many "racial issues" in this country that shouldn't be dismissed as some symptom of hypersensitivity.

As a moderator, you should at least be respectful?

Not to say I disagree with you entirely. I'm just saying it's a bit foolish to say "all Americans" are somehow needlessly hypersensitive, as if there is no historical context to why URminorities are where they are and to overlook how race and class intersect.

Anyway....I'm gonna go back to studying on this beautiful Friday night...

 

[njbmd]

Good way of saying it: "Hey even though you don't meet the GPA/MCAT requirements for this school you should still apply because you represent a group that is seriously underrepresented in medicine, making your interest in medicine valuable enough that they will look past your small .2 GPA deficiency, etc."

Bad way of saying it: "Don't worry that you scored so low on the MCAT. You're black/hispanic/native american so you don't need high stats anyways 🙄"

Best way of saying it: (like others have said) "Hey look at this AAMC chart I found, your chances are really good at *insert school name*."

Putting someone's job on the line for something like that though...really not very nice :/
A confrontation would probably be good enough if he's being THAT offensive

What goes in past is not necessarily the future. Don't count on anything "cutting you a break" in medical school admissions. To give any other advice is not being truthful no matter how many "charts" you have in front of you. Statistics don't take individuals into account.

 

[mipp0]

What goes in past is not necessarily the future. Don't count on anything "cutting you a break" in medical school admissions. To give any other advice is not being truthful no matter how many "charts" you have in front of you. Statistics don't take individuals into account.

There is an undeniable trend regarding GPA/MCAT and URM over several years. It would be foolish to ignore this fact.

Man, it's hard maintaining the middle ground...

 

[Morsetlis]

Protection from being offended is not a right.

You are all a bunch of wussies, seriously.

👍

 

[Morsetlis]

sew his mouth up???

This was a Saw movie!

 

[Rach83]

I don't think your husband is being hostile or offensive, but I think he did a poor job at advising this student. If this student had already taken the mcat, then it would be helpful to know what her chances were. But if this student hasn't taken the test yet, why bother telling her that she doesn't have to ace it and can aim lower?

 

[jhamaican]

he speaks the truth. i wish i was a URM

 

[mfrizzo3]

he speaks the truth. i wish i was a URM

Move to Africa

 

[Dr Lyss]

I think my premed advisors handled it fairly well. When we discussed my future goals or how I was doing, we looked at the whole package. He never said I should shoot for only a 30 because I'm a minority or that it was okay that I bombed chemistry because I have some "wiggle room." I think my goals weren't that different from my peers. The only time it may have come up was when we were discussing summer programs and what schools I should apply to. My advisors were more supportive of me applying to schools that I felt were out of my range, but nothing crazy. There are too many factors that go into admissions to be comfortable saying to a student settle for less. That would be poor advising 😉

 

[MilkmanAl]

Damning minorities with real racial concerns as "hypersensitive" is ridiculous. I've had a professor refer to his students in a racial slur, and though he didn't mean to offend, many were offended. There are many "racial issues" in this country that shouldn't be dismissed as some symptom of hypersensitivity.

As a moderator, you should at least be respectful?

Not to say I disagree with you entirely. I'm just saying it's a bit foolish to say "all Americans" are somehow needlessly hypersensitive, as if there is no historical context to why URminorities are where they are and to overlook how race and class intersect.

Anyway....I'm gonna go back to studying on this beautiful Friday night...

You either totally misunderstood my post or are trying to construct one hell of a straw man. Either way, no good can come of this. Just note that I never said that all Americans are hypersensitive to every issue and that we're not talking about someone using racial slurs.

 

[plasmidgreen]

You will notice quickly that there is an abundance of racial strife in the US. Whenever someone says something insensitive about race/ethnic issues, I generally just try to avoid them. There is no point in arguing with an ignorant person (internet forums are a big example of this).

 

[sewcurious]

You either totally misunderstood my post or are trying to construct one hell of a straw man. Either way, no good can come of this. Just note that I never said that all Americans are hypersensitive to every issue and that we're not talking about someone using racial slurs.

You don't even realize how biased your statement is. People are "hypersensitive" only to someone who doesn't see the relevance of racial issues. I would instead consider you conformist to the present ignorance about the relevance of racial discrimination throughout the lives of minorities. We have has this convo before. And despite reading the facts many of you guys continue to pretend you haven't. So again, for those of you that believe racial issues are not relevant (as I understand not all of you do):

"It is generally recognized that there are large racial differences in SES, and health researchers routinely adjust for SES when examining the race–health association...Race is an antecedent and determinant of SES, and racial differences in SES reflect, in part, the successful implementation of discriminatory policies premised on the inferiority of certain racial groups."

http://www.echt.chm.msu.edu/blockiii...ioeconomic.pdf

and more

"First, is the endorsement of an ideology of inferiority a relic of a bygone era? On the one hand, there have been dramatic improvements in the racial climate in the United States in the last 50 years. For example, national data reveal that in 1942 only 32% of whites with school-aged children believed that white and black children should go to the same schools. Ninety-six percent of white parents supported that view in 1995. Similarly, in 1958 only 37% of whites stated that they would vote for a qualified black man for President of the United States. In 1997, 95% of whites indicated that they would vote for a black person for President. At the same time, other
data indicate that racial attitudes are complex. Overwhelming support for the principle of equality coexists with a reluctance to support policies that would reduce racial inequalities.

Moreover, data on stereotypes reveal the persistence of negative images of minorityracial/ethnic populations in the United States. National data reveal that 45% of whites believe that most blacks are lazy, 51% indicated that most blacks are prone to violence, 29% that most blacks are unintelligent, and 56% that most blacks prefer to live off welfare.

These data also reveal a reluctance to endorse positive stereotypes of African Americans. Only 17% of whites indicated that most blacks are hard-working, 15% that most blacks are not prone to violence, 21% that most blacks are intelligent, and 12% that most blacks prefer to be self-supporting. These data are even more striking when compared with whites' perceptions of themselves and other groups. In general, whites view all minority racial groups more negatively than themselves, with blacks being viewed more negatively than any other group. Hispanics tend to be viewed twice as negatively as Asians. Jews tend to be viewed more positively, and southern whites more negatively, than whites in general."

This explains why your view is so scary. Because racial discrimination does affect the health of patients. There are so many of these studies, just look.

And BTW, as I have also said in previous posts. Race is a social construct, the rules being made by the dominant (white) society. There is no genetic basis for the distinctions (esp. since many, if not most, URMS are more than 50% white in this country).

 

[MilkmanAl]

Who said racial issues aren't relevant? Oh well, whatever.

 

[sewcurious]

Who said racial issues aren't relevant? Oh well, whatever.

No please explain. If you consider racial issues relevant then how are American's "hypersensistive" (having unduly vulnerable feelings, Highly or excessively sensitive)?

 

[affected]

No please explain. If you consider racial issues relevant then how are American's "hypersensistive" (having unduly vulnerable feelings, Highly or excessively sensitive)?

Again, this is coming from a person who has not grown up here, so I may be off mark. But this is what it looks like from the outside:

I am not sure if the term "hypersensitive" is all that inaccurate. Sensitization is not a reaction to something fictitious. It is an adaptation to a real stimulus, but it is also an exaggerated response to a real stimulus.

I don't think there are many people who would disagree that there are real racial issues in America. Race discrepancy is a real issue and the responses society has taken to eradicate them are healthy. People's reactions to racially inappropriate behavior are also healthy.

But when someone is scared to even mention race, or when someone quotes facts and the reaction he gets is more fitting to a criminal than the clueless person he is, well, that, I think, is hypersensitivity....

 

[sewcurious]

Again, this is coming from a person who has not grown up here, so I may be off mark. But this is what it looks like from the outside:

I am not sure if the term "hypersensitive" is all that inaccurate. Sensitization is not a reaction to something fictitious. It is an adaptation to a real stimulus, but it is also an exaggerated response to a real stimulus.

I don't think there are many people who would disagree that there are real racial issues in America. Race discrepancy is a real issue and the responses society has taken to eradicate them are healthy. People's reactions to racially inappropriate behavior are also healthy.

But when someone is scared to even mention race, or when someone quotes facts and the reaction he gets is more fitting to a criminal than the clueless person he is, well, that, I think, is hypersensitivity....

I appreciate your perspective but I would tend to disagree because those perspectives are a part of the problem. Only white people are scared to mention race (the rest of us have it thrown in our face at every turn of the channel or turn of the page), and they should be to a certain extent. They need to be very careful with their words for the reasons I mentioned: race is relevant and being sensitive to it is part of fixing the issues we have in this country.

 

[chelala]

Why would race to be involved at all? Why not just advise the student they way you would any other--do your best, raise your GPA if possible, get a 30+ MCAT, make sure you have clinical and non-clinical volunteering, etc....?

 

[StormingWynn]

Disclaimer:
I know this is my first post and that may flag me as a troll, but I registered just to ask this question, which is a real concern. Please play nice.

This is a question directed toward people who self-identify as minorities:
Suppose your professor was talking to you about med school admissions, and was explaining how competitive it has gotten, and how, to gain admission in big city X, you should aim for a 35 on the MCAT, to be on the "safe" side.
Suppose the same professor also adds that if you self-identify as a minority, and wish to claim that minority status, then you could possibly be ok with a score that's quite a bit lower.

Is this professor being hostile/discriminatory/offensive?

Again, please play nice....

I asked a professor for a LOR and he asked me what I was aiming to become. I told him I wanted to study medicine and then he asked me, "are you first generation college student?" "We'll first generation college students tend to be a bit ambitious and people coming from where you come from tend to take on the responsibility of taking care of the entire family." I was in shock when he said that. He assumed I was a First Gen, overly ambitious URM. I just played along not trying to be rude. I still asked him to write LOR's but I didn't and don't intend on using them. 👎

 

[affected]

I think my premed advisors handled it fairly well. When we discussed my future goals or how I was doing, we looked at the whole package. He never said I should shoot for only a 30 because I'm a minority or that it was okay that I bombed chemistry because I have some "wiggle room." I think my goals weren't that different from my peers. The only time it may have come up was when we were discussing summer programs and what schools I should apply to. My advisors were more supportive of me applying to schools that I felt were out of my range, but nothing crazy. There are too many factors that go into admissions to be comfortable saying to a student settle for less. That would be poor advising 😉

Thanks. That sounds very reasonable, and I agree.
I just think I should clarify this situation:

We are talking about an urban community college, where 2/3 of the students are minorities, and the majority of the remaining 1/3 are immigrants.
The general socioeconomic status is low, the previous education these students have gotten is poor, and they lack study skills. The educational system has definitely failed these students - very many of them lack in basic literacy and numeracy skills.

The city and the administration try to motivate these kids and tell them they can become anything they want. In their eagerness, they forget to tell the students what it will take to get where they want.

Many of these kids buy into the dream, pay up, and declare themselves premeds. No one wants to disappoint these kids, so the official line is that there should be no pre-health advising - no one should tell the students just how hard it is to get into med school, because they risk being disappointed and dropping out. In the same vain, there is a serious lack of enforcement of standards - the courses are not "real."

The result? Students who graduate and move on to 4 year colleges are slaughtered in courses that have prereqs. And they do abysmally on the MCAT. No one tells these kids what it takes to become a doctor, what steps are needed, how to set up an optimal course schedule, what grades are required, etc etc. "Just let them think they can succeed" is the not so unofficial line of the administration. But wishful thinking makes not a doctor (otherwise everyone on this forum would be a physician!) But they don't seem to care...

So if, in this environment, someone gives you the straight talk, wouldn't you want all the facts?

 

[affected]

I appreciate your perspective but I would tend to disagree because those perspectives are a part of the problem. Only white people are scared to mention race (the rest of us have it thrown in our face at every turn of the channel or turn of the page), and they should be to a certain extent. They need to be very careful with their words for the reasons I mentioned: race is relevant and being sensitive to it is part of fixing the issues we have in this country.

I agree that I cannot have a proper perspective on these issues. Both my color and my personal history (i.e. my non-US origin) probably get in the way.

But this is the thing: Shouldn't reactions be proportional to the offense? Do a member of the KKK and person who is insensitive/clueless (yet means well) deserve to be treated the same way?

I understand how insensitivity can foster implicit racism, and I understand that if you accept it as something benign you might run into a slippery slope situation. But still, you can't just pick up a torch and burn the whole house down when you've got termites in one room...

 

[sewcurious]

I apologize for my previous post, I was not refering to your perspective but the one that you were quoting.

I don't think, however, that your analogy is applicable. I don't know anyone who treats a confused person the same as a KKK member, and that kind of statment shows how little you understand the situation. Minorities get upset, and they have a right to when they feel insulted, expecially when prejudicial things come from the mouths of respected academic advisors that influence hundreds of other non-URM students.

Once again, I don't think what the OP posted was in any way "wrong". Those are simply the facts. I would have preferred a bit of an explanation go with it because knowledge without context helped no one. But I think you can agree that the idea that the average white person would know what a "proportional" response to the daily expression of over 200 years of ignorance and hatred is simply hubris.

 

[sunsfan]

OP, as someone who also grew up in a foreign country and immigrated to the US as an adult, I completely understand your confusion. I honestly think that all of us are still looking for a good way to talk about race and racial issues; we have yet to find that safe ground.

In the last five years I've had my share of feeling totally shocked when somebody took grave offense in something I said - something I thought is completely neutral and harmless. Because of my experience, I have gone through periods of being overly cautious - "overly PC" - so that it never happens again. I also went through a defensive stage where I'm always at the ready try to justify what I say in case somebody reacts in an unexpected way. There were also days when I avoided the topic altogether. Admittedly, there were also times when I said, F*** it, I just won't care anymore.

But as with anything else that is involved in immigration and adjusting to a new culture, you will learn over time to find your voice. You seem to have great communication skills, and your husband could probably learn from you. Your willingness to engage, and really understand other people's point of view as shown by this thread will help you find your way. Your ability to read your audience's body language, their nonverbal cues, will lead you to the right approach. I also learned that having a pleasant personality goes a long way in this - I mean, it's gonna be really hard to nitpick on something someone said if you know that person is really usually "nice" with a good heart.

In the end, I think you should also keep in mind that try as we may to please everybody, we just can't. One day out of one hundred, there will be one or two souls among fifty who will not like you as a person or take offense in what you say. Just take it in stride.

 

[sewcurious]

OP, as someone who also grew up in a foreign country and immigrated to the US as an adult, I completely understand your confusion. I honestly think that all of us are still looking for a good way to talk about race and racial issues; we have yet to find that safe ground.

In the last five years I've had my share of feeling totally shocked when somebody took grave offense in something I said - something I thought is completely neutral and harmless. Because of my experience, I have gone through periods of being overly cautious - "overly PC" - so that it never happens again. I also went through a defensive stage where I'm always at the ready try to justify what I say in case somebody reacts in an unexpected way. There were also days when I avoided the topic altogether. Admittedly, there were also times when I said, F*** it, I just won't care anymore.

But as with anything else that is involved in immigration and adjusting to a new culture, you will learn over time to find your voice. You seem to have great communication skills, and your husband could probably learn from you. Your willingness to engage, and really understand other people's point of view as shown by this thread will help you find your way. Your ability to read your audience's body language, their nonverbal cues, will lead you to the right approach. I also learned that having a pleasant personality goes a long way in this - I mean, it's gonna be really hard to nitpick on something someone said if you know that person is really usually "nice" with a good heart.

In the end, I think you should also keep in mind that try as we may to please everybody, we just can't. One day out of one hundred, there will be one or two souls among fifty who will not like you as a person or take offense in what you say. Just take it in stride.

👍

 

[chman]

I appreciate your perspective but I would tend to disagree because those perspectives are a part of the problem. Only white people are scared to mention race (the rest of us have it thrown in our face at every turn of the channel or turn of the page), and they should be to a certain extent. They need to be very careful with their words for the reasons I mentioned: race is relevant and being sensitive to it is part of fixing the issues we have in this country.

But don't you think your perspective is a bit counter productive. Maybe I have a different perspective as a white man in a primarily black neighborhood, but I feel that if white people are made scared to create a dialogue on the issue nothing will be accomplished. Until we can have an open discussion about race without people calling racist at the first sign of disagreement we are going to make little more progress than we have made. I guess what I am trying to say is that hypersensitivity is no help at all IMO. It also creates a bit of a double standard...

 

[sewcurious]

I apologize if I was unclear. I think dialogue on this issue is incredibly important. but what the OP was talking about wasn't dialogue, it was advice from an academic superior. And once again, hypersensitivity is in the eye of the beholder.

What I would suggest before people state their opinion is considering their bias. Words hurt, and I don;t think asking people to be empathetic towards the other person in the conversation is asking for much. In fact, the lack of empathy is what is at the root of the problem.

 

[chman]

I apologize if I was unclear. I think dialogue on this issue is incredibly important. but what the OP was talking about wasn't dialogue, it was advice from an academic superior. And once again, hypersensitivity is in the eye of the beholder.

What I would suggest before people state their opinion is considering their bias. Words hurt, and I don;t think asking people to be empathetic towards the other person in the conversation is asking for much. In fact, the lack of empathy is what is at the root of the problem.

Perhaps, and perhaps not. Neither one of us knows the exact wording, so neither one of us can be sure. I mean, would it have been better for said academic superior to ignore the factual evidence and tell the student to go for other tests, more classes, etc., when that student may be able to get in without doing that stuff. If it were me, I would like to know that information. Once again, it really depends on how it was said, but I don't see how giving someone factual information is racist, and to me that is hypersensitive.

I realize my friends and neighbors don't speak for all minorities, but I highly doubt that any of them would be offended by that (and we have had heated, honest race discussions many times).

 

[sewcurious]

Perhaps, and perhaps not. Neither one of us knows the exact wording, so neither one of us can be sure. I mean, would it have been better for said academic superior to ignore the factual evidence and tell the student to go for other tests, more classes, etc., when that student may be able to get in without doing that stuff. If it were me, I would like to know that information. Once again, it really depends on how it was said, but I don't see how giving someone factual information is racist, and to me that is hypersensitive.

I realize my friends and neighbors don't speak for all minorities, but I highly doubt that any of them would be offended by that (and we have had heated, honest race discussions many times).

I don't think you've read what I've actually said:

Once again, I don't think what the OP posted was in any way "wrong". Those are simply the facts. I would have preferred a bit of an explanation go with it because knowledge without context helped no one. But I think you can agree that the idea that the average white person would know what a "proportional" response to the daily expression of over 200 years of ignorance and hatred is simply hubris.

 

[sewcurious]

I don't think you've read what I've actually said:

And BTW white people assume that they can see all the aspects of racism that affect minorities. Part of the experience of racism is the internalization of the negative stereotypes constantly associated with you (look the real arguments behind into Brown vs. Board of Education). That is where being careful of your wording comes into play. Considering how URMs will respond and feel is more of an issue for white communities, because if we say negative things about you, there is an entire culture waiting to prove you right. The reverse is not true.

 

[chman]

I don't think you've read what I've actually said:

I did not read that particular response. Sorry, I was going off the one a quoted and did not get the full picture.

And BTW white people assume that they can see all the aspects of racism that affect minorities. Part of the experience of racism is the internalization of the negative stereotypes constantly associated with you (look the real arguments behind into Brown vs. Board of Education). That is where being careful of your wording comes into play. Considering how URMs will respond and feel is more of an issue for white communities, because if we say negative things about you, there is an entire culture waiting to prove you right. The reverse is not true.

I don't think most white people assume they know what it feels like to be a minority, or at least I don't. I think everyone should consider how their wording affects others, regardless of their ethnicity. The way you worded your statement makes it sound like white people should put more thought into their statements, while other races don't need to be as careful; which I don't agree with (but perhaps I am reading it wrong). If we want things to truly be equal we can't give a pass to some and not to others.