Advisor trouble

[ClinPhD]

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Hi all,

I'm hoping to get some advice on a concern I have about my advisor, particularly from anyone who may have been in a similar situation.

I'm in the process of writing my dissertation proposal, and my advisor has indicated on several occasions now that he plans to include large portions of it (verbatim) in a grant that he'll be writing this year. He's made it clear that the grant will be an extension/more methodologically rigorous version of my project; however, because I'm a student, I can't be a co-PI on it (he made a throw-away comment about having me as a "consultant or something" on the grant just to get my name on it). If the project were to be funded, I'd be gone before data collection could begin, so I wouldn't even be involved in the execution of it. Of most immediate concern to me, however, is that he may actually end up submitting it before I even propose my dissertation (let alone finish it) -- now I'm worried that this could have implications for the intellectual property rights to my writing, since submitting a grant is in a sense publishing it.

To clarify, the idea for the project was mine entirely; the topic is outside of (but related to) his current line of research and he's not all that well-versed in the relevant literature. He also has not had any part in the writing in question. He generally just helps with final edits on things like this.

I haven't talked with him about my concerns, but I know that I need to do so. I'm applying for internship this year and will need his support in that process as well as in data collection for my dissertation, so this is an especially bad time to be rocking the boat. Any advice on handling this tactfully? I'd also appreciate some perspective on whether this kind of thing is actually commonplace. I could let it go if I'm blowing it out of proportion, but right now it feels like I'm being taken advantage of by someone who has a lot of power over me and is supposed to be looking out for my best interests.

If it makes any sort of difference, this is in the context of a respectable university-based PhD program.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Do you intend to pursue a research career? If so, what sort of setting? I think that has a lot to do with how you will approach this.

Also, you might give some thought about the benefits of completing or nearly completing your dissertation before leaving on internship, even if that would delay your internship another year. Very little tends to get done on the dissertation during internship year. It is a wonderful relief to have it done before you go. I bring this up because it seems like there is a bit of a rush to get this data out there and taking a year long hiatus from your work to do internship might not be in your best interest.

Sorry you are dealing with this. 🙁

Dr. E

 

[ClinPhD]

Do you intend to pursue a research career? If so, what sort of setting? I think that has a lot to do with how you will approach this.

Also, you might give some thought about the benefits of completing or nearly completing your dissertation before leaving on internship, even if that would delay your internship another year. Very little tends to get done on the dissertation during internship year. It is a wonderful relief to have it done before you go. I bring this up because it seems like there is a bit of a rush to get this data out there and taking a year long hiatus from your work to do internship might not be in your best interest.

Sorry you are dealing with this. 🙁

Dr. E

Thank you for your comment. 🙂

I am very interested in a research career but haven't firmly decided on it. I'm more interested in settings that skew toward research obligations over teaching, so if I do go that route, I'm thinking about academic medical centers.

I definitely take your advice about getting the dissertation done before internship to heart. My data collection isn't going to be contingent on his grant, so I do have the whole upcoming year to work on it while applying and before leaving for internship (assuming I match, of course 😱).

I actually don't mind him submitting a grant based on my project since I can't think of any reason it would affect the completion of my dissertation. I'm mainly upset about the prospect of my proposal becoming his grant (and he's made it clear that this is his intention). I suspect a likely outcome if he did this and it was funded is that I would complete my project much earlier than he would, but he'd say we should wait to publish it using his data and with him as first author. Since he'd have been the sole author on a grant full of my writing before my dissertation was even on record, I'd have little recourse to challenge that. It may even look like I'd taken his writing. But even without that outcome, what he's planning on doing just seems flat out unethical to me. 🙁

 

[futureapppsy2]

because I'm a student, I can't be a co-PI on it

This is, in my experience, not true. It may be *risky* to put a grad student as a co-PI, given that they usually have less experience and fewer publications, but it can and has been done. I think it would be very much justified in your case.

I suspect a likely outcome if he did this and it was funded is that I would complete my project much earlier than he would, but he'd say we should wait to publish it using his data and with him as first author. Since he'd have been the sole author on a grant full of my writing before my dissertation was even on record, I'd have little recourse to challenge that. It may even look like I'd taken his writing. But even without that outcome, what he's planning on doing just seems flat out unethical to me.

This seems very, very sketchy to me, especially making you deliberately withhold your data so that he can be first author on any publications.

That being said, you are dependent on him to graduate and for letters of rec if you decide to go the faculty route, so you need to stay in his good graces. It sucks, but being student (or perhaps even an untenured faculty member), not rocking that boat can be more important than stopping sketchy, sometimes blatantly unethical actions from faculty members. It does truly suck to have to basically let them get away with something unethical like that just because they hold higher rank. However, it's a price of the small world of academia.

 

[ClinPhD]

This is, in my experience, not true. It may be *risky* to put a grad student as a co-PI, given that they usually have less experience and fewer publications, but it can and has been done. I think it would be very much justified in your case.

Thanks so much for pointing this out -- I didn't realize it was technically an option. I don't think he'll go for co-investigator (I'll ask), but I did a little digging and found that NIH also has an "Other Significant Contributors" designation that's a heck of a lot more appropriate for the situation than "Consultant" and alleviates some of my concern about intellectual property, assuming he goes for it. 🙂

This seems very, very sketchy to me, especially making you deliberately withhold your data so that he can be first author on any publications.

Yes indeed. To be fair, he hasn't stated an intention to do the part of it you mention above, I'm basing the 'likelihood' of that on hints he's given and past experiences with him.

That being said, you are dependent on him to graduate and for letters of rec if you decide to go the faculty route, so you need to stay in his good graces. It sucks, but being student (or perhaps even an untenured faculty member), not rocking that boat can be more important than stopping sketchy, sometimes blatantly unethical actions from faculty members. It does truly suck to have to basically let them get away with something unethical like that just because they hold higher rank. However, it's a price of the small world of academia.

Oh I know, I've been biting my tongue a lot in the last few years!

 

[Pragma]

Of most immediate concern to me, however, is that he may actually end up submitting it before I even propose my dissertation (let alone finish it) -- now I'm worried that this could have implications for the intellectual property rights to my writing, since submitting a grant is in a sense publishing it.
...
I haven't talked with him about my concerns, but I know that I need to do so.

If it is possible to propose the dissertation first, I would do everything you can to avoid that. Seems ridiculous to me that he'd pull sections from your incomplete dissertation proposal for a grant, but it is also important to acknowledge that a lot of people want to try to get something funded before the election. You could take it as flattering, but there should be a discussion about what kinds of authorship credit you will get for resulting publications, etc.

That said, submitting the grant is not exactly "publishing it" and I am guessing that if you want to publish your dissertation, you can fall back on the protections regarding student work/authorship within the APA ethics code (e.g., you are supposed to be first author on that).

On a side note, it isn't necessarily unethical for a faculty member to have a student or employee write grants for them. When I was in graduate school I wrote lots of grants for my faculty member. We generally had some group discussions about how to structure the theory and hypotheses, but a lot of these things were my own ideas. I never thought twice about it - I was being paid to write grants. However, if it were my dissertation, I probably would have wanted to understand the boundaries more clearly.

If your advisor is any good, you should be able to sit down and ask them about how the overlap between your dissertation and the grant application will play out for you in the future. They may make you some guarantees, and ultimately, it could be a good thing.

 

[ClinPhD]

If it is possible to propose the dissertation first, I would do everything you can to avoid that. Seems ridiculous to me that he'd pull sections from your incomplete dissertation proposal for a grant, but it is also important to acknowledge that a lot of people want to try to get something funded before the election. You could take it as flattering, but there should be a discussion about what kinds of authorship credit you will get for resulting publications, etc.

That said, submitting the grant is not exactly "publishing it" and I am guessing that if you want to publish your dissertation, you can fall back on the protections regarding student work/authorship within the APA ethics code (e.g., you are supposed to be first author on that).

All very good points.

On a side note, it isn't necessarily unethical for a faculty member to have a student or employee write grants for them. When I was in graduate school I wrote lots of grants for my faculty member. We generally had some group discussions about how to structure the theory and hypotheses, but a lot of these things were my own ideas. I never thought twice about it - I was being paid to write grants. However, if it were my dissertation, I probably would have wanted to understand the boundaries more clearly.

Right, I do see what you're saying. The reason why it's unethical here is that I never in any way consented for him to do this; he just informed me out of the blue--and not in a way that invited my commentary--that he was going to do it. I'm also funded as a TA and am not being paid to do research for him. Obviously, we all help our advisors with their research (and believe me, I do help plenty!), but there's no reason he'd be automatically entitled to my independent work as in an employee-employer relationship. I have a hard time seeing this as anything other than an abuse of power.

If your advisor is any good, you should be able to sit down and ask them about how the overlap between your dissertation and the grant application will play out for you in the future. They may make you some guarantees, and ultimately, it could be a good thing.

This sounds like a good way to frame the conversation/potentially avoid needing to bring up certain concerns. Thank you. 🙂

 

[Pragma]

Well given the fact that you aren't being paid and that it wasn't discussed with you, there definitely is more of a cause for concern. Now keep in mind, some advisors may consider their supervision of you an investment of their resources, so even if you aren't being paid, they may see some of your independent work as "working for them" and especially if you used any of their data or funding to help with your master's. Not saying it is right, but academics may justify it this way.

I suggest that, if you think he's not a total jerk, to try having a conversation with them. The circumstances are unique, and perhaps a candid talk will help to clarify how things stand. However, if you think that he would react in a volatile way, I'd suggest maybe discussing the matter with your DCT privately. They may provide some guidance on institutional norms regarding this sort of thing, and it is their job to protect your interests as a student.

 

[beantownpsych]

Do you intend to pursue a research career? If so, what sort of setting? I think that has a lot to do with how you will approach this.

Also, you might give some thought about the benefits of completing or nearly completing your dissertation before leaving on internship, even if that would delay your internship another year. Very little tends to get done on the dissertation during internship year. It is a wonderful relief to have it done before you go. I bring this up because it seems like there is a bit of a rush to get this data out there and taking a year long hiatus from your work to do internship might not be in your best interest.

Sorry you are dealing with this. 🙁

Dr. E

+1

I'd also consult your school/program's student handbook etc. The vast majority of schools have strict rules governing dissertations and ownership, as does APA. Frankly, I wrote substantial parts of grants for my advisor while in graduate school (without credit) and now submitting my own grants do understand the reluctance to put graduate students as Co-Is (in most cases weakens the grant). However, taking or using parts of your dissertation without your consent is just plain wrong and unacceptable. I also would advise you to carefully consider the rest of your dissertation committee as you may need them to advocate for you re: this issue.