Affirmative action and the MCAT

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Jugador75

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According to a very reliable source (a book that my friend has which is completely about minorities applying to med schools, and which did extensive surveys of all the U.S. med schools) if you are black and applying to med school, you will receive an average of 9 additional points on your MCAT! Of course, it differs by race, black being the "best" race and hispanic being one of the "worst", only getting 2 additional points on the MCAT.

Thoughts about this?

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hahaha!!

That sounds like a very racist book to me!

Blacks and Hispanics get the scores that they've earned, they don't score things differently depending on your race!

However, a black/hispanic with a 28 might have a better chance of getting into med school than a white applicant with a 32 (assuming that all their application data is comparable), just cuz they need to fill their quota of minorities. But that's the way it works in undergrad and grad schools too.

It sux for boring whites like me, but it's definitely a better system than the way it was 40 years ago when almost no blacks or hispanics could get into med school just becuz of their race.
 
Yeah, you're probably right. I'm not Black or hispanic, so I guess I don't really know what it would be like from their end. But I think if I were, I would be very annoyed if all the doctors in the US were white. Actually, even as a white that would really bother me. And I think we all know that grades and MCAT have nothing to do with how good a doc u will be. It's just a way to screen ppl out. I would rather a doc that had to work his/her butt off for a 28 than one that just breezed through and got a 40. Geniuses don't make good doctors, they make good researchers. A big heart and dedication is what makes a doctor good. Unfortunately, there is no way to test that.
No one asks what scores ppl got on their MCAT when they are looking for a good doc, so it doesn't bother me if someone gets into med school with a 25 or a 40, as long as they are devoted to medicine.
 
Originally posted by popeyepete
maybe your friend's book means that a black who gets a 25 is equivalent to a white guy getting like a 33, but that is a big stretch...I bet it is more like they get a 6 point advantage or so...8 points is a ton. Although I do know of a black girl who got into duke with a 25 and average grades whereas I have many white male friends who got the boot after scoring 37 and above with near perfect gpa's and they got into other top notch schools. As far as the last post about this being a better system than 40 years ago, yes it is a better system for URM's, but don't forget that every time an underqualified person gets in, there is a qualified person who does not...Does that seem fair? Why don't they just leave race out of it for pete's sake!!! Med school is a professional school and you will some day have people's lives in your hands so I would rather have a competant physician than one who is racially diverse...That is just my opinion, take it or leave it. Besides, most of my black and mexican friends are against affirmative action b/c everyone just assumes they are not capable so they always have this stigma surrounding them and say it is really annoying.

Getting into med school takes more than numbers. I'm just surprised that people still question that, especially among premed students. If it only took numbers, why would we bother stressing out over personal statements, or extracurricular activities, or unique experiences? I'm sure that there were other reasons why your white friends were rejected with 37, and other reasons why the black girl was accepted.

"For every underqualified applicant who gets in, a qualified applicant gets rejected"

Correction: for every QUALIFIED applicant who gets in, another QUALIFIED applicant gets rejected, irregardless of race. Is that fair? Thats life. Med school admissions is a gamble. Besides, there aren't enough URM applicants being accepted to account for all of the qualified students being rejected. Its not always race.

That stigma existed before affirmative action, and would exist even if it was abolished. I'm surrounded by a stigma that I should be able to dance, but I can't. Oh well. I can live with it.

I don't believe that points are added to MCAT scores based on race. But then again, I don't work for AAMC. If you're really concerned, call AAMC, or write a letter, and find out from the horse's mouth.

(but hey, if its true, and my practice MCATs are accurate, i can count on a 45. hehe.)
 
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AAMC doesnt add the points onto your mcat!! Adcoms do!! Jesus christ - what - did you think that when you get your score report in the mail, it will say "14+9 (for being black) = 23)" ??

Maybe you should get the 9 points. My feeling, however, is that the above poster is right, and that it actually hurts those minorities who actually ARE smart, but who have this stigma associated with them as being "underqualified".
 
Wow!! that is quite amazing. especially interesting is the fact that guys get almost a full point higher on the sciences, while almost the same on verbal.
 
This is a kind of related question...I heard someone mention today that Brown Med is particularly interested in supporting diversity...and I think this person must be clueless because he said that he doesn't even have to take the MCAT or science pre-reqs to get in (he's a URM). I can't believe this would be true... anyone heard of such a thing? (or of any other school that doesn't require the MCAT...I'm not looking to apply there personally :D , but just curious).
 
When people argue that minorities should or should not be given an advantage to get into medical school or other graduate school it would be nice if they would specify the minority group in question.

Yeah a few minority groups do get an advantage but the majority don't. Asians are just as much effected if not more the white's. You don't know how many times people say to me you will get in because your asian. Or the only reason she got in was because she's asian. They get that impression because everyone runs around talking about minorities have some type of advantage.

Some minorities do have an advantage and others are at a disadvantage.
 
Lets make it clear?

Is MCAT perfect? Hell no! you can not see what you have inside in a 8 hour exam, people who get a 27 can be a better doctor than a person who got a 38.
Is MCAT necessary? Absolutely, You need a method to measure to compare people and how the hell they will separate 40000+ applicants from each other.

Losers talk about a guy with 27 can be a better doc than a guy who got 38. But here is the deal, adcoms do not have the time to consider all of your qualifications. To know a person you need to spend years together. Unfortunately there is no way for adcoms to see in a 1 hour interview. Well may be 27 mcat might be a great doctor but why to choose him over a guy who got 37. It does not make a bit of sense. Please people when you fail something first ask yourself why it happened instead of blaming this and that. Seriously very few people have the nuts to say that.
Mcat has a curve and there is a certain percentile always gets the grade. It does not how hard it is, it does not matter if you did not have enough time or etc. Everybody is in the same ship.

I guess quality is more important that diversity. If I fail, I will never blame Anglos not to accept my turkish arse to their medical school (unless I have a 35+ mcat:))))

I
 
Karen44, it's true, Brown does not require the MCAT. But, I belive you can only get in through a linkage program it has with only 5 or 6 schools (brown, columbia, and a few others). Some other med schools (like mt. sinai) also have linkage programs and do noy require, and in fact discourage, the mcat for the students in the linkgae program. Basically the students just have to maintain a certain average and they're guaranteed admission.
 
wow, I'm surprised...I thought he just didn't know what he was talking about! So if you went to Brown for undergrad, you could get into its med school without the MCAT? Oh well, too late for me...:mad:
 
popeyepete - awesome, awesome post!! I agree with every single thing you said. Very eloquently worded too. One of the best posts I've ever read on SDN. I'm glad someone finally said it.
 
I think all your points would make sense in an ideal society. Unfortunately, society today is far from ideal. Racism still exists, and there is no doubt in my mind that if affirmative action was abolished there would be almost no URM doctors. As a patient, not a premed, that would really bother me. I love the diversity in hospitals todays. My mom was turned down with a 4.0 GPA when she was applying to med schools over 25 years ago cuz she was pregnant at the time, and they didn't think a "mommy" could be a could be a good doctor (she did however get into Cornell cuz she had a female interviewer). I think diversity in colleges and in the workplace makes for a better society. There are many flaws to the system of affirmative action, but this system is necessary because our society is still bleeding with hatred and racism.
 
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Originally posted by popeyepete
I would like to add one other thing. Just remember what Martin Luther King said, "I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." Do you think Affirmative action judges by skin color or character? Or how bout good old Bob Marley who said there should be war until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes? Yet today we sadly still judge people by the color of their skin. Does anyone agree that we should try to reach these goals of a "colorless" nation where people succeed on their own merits and we can have faith in knowing that the person doing whatever job they are doing is truly the best person for the job!

All AA discussions bring up that one line, from that one speech (which the circumstances under which he delivered the speech are never mentioned in history classes) without fail, as an argument against affirmative action. Sure, MLK would be against affirmative action as a permanent part of society, but would support it as it was originally intended, as a temporary solution. In his book, Why We Can't Wait, he states:

"Whenever this issue of compensatory or preferential treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree, but he should ask for nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic. For it is obvious that if a man enters the starting line of a race three hundred years after another man, the first would have to perform some incredible feat in order to catch up."

Then, a few years later, in Where Do We Go From Here? Chaos or Community?" he states:

"A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for him, in order to equip him to compete on a just and equal basis."

Even his family has spoken out against the perversion of his "I have a dream" when anti-AA people state that he would have been against AA. He was more than just talk, also. He organized and participated in Operation Breadbasket, in which he sought jobs for blacks, and threatened to organize boycotts against companies that would not hire blacks.

So yeah, I just had to comment on that. "I have a dream" was a great speech, but it has been overused to pervert what MLK actually stood for.
 
To whoever started this thread:

Are you laying out hearsay so that when you're not accepted, you have someone else to blame? It seems that most racism stems from this perspective. Basing a thread on a rumor from a book that you do not name the source or author just sounds like sour grapes.

Before you further propagate bigotry, you might wish to get a few facts straight.

  • 1) Native Americans are the most sought after URM.

    2) Most ad-coms look at economic disparity, not ethnicity, when considering special admissions. Like it or not, growing up in poverty presents educational challenges you probably didn't experience in suburbia. For whatever reason may be, URMs find themselves disproportionally distrbuted in the poor class.

And anyone who honestly thinks they are getting the short end of the deal if someone with a 28 who grew up in poverty gets admitted over you and your 30, would you trade positions? Would you grow up in an area where you spend most of your life scared, living paycheck to paycheck in order to have minimal preferential treatment in the application process? It's easy to complain from a comfortable seat in front of a computer screen, but would you trade that comfortable seat for the ghetto and a small advantage in the application process?
 
i just stumbled across this thread and i find it appalling.....someone said that society is still rife with racism etc....i really don't see that....call me naive, call me whatever you want, but i really don't see that......and in regards to racism etc, i dont' think that canada and the u.s. are that different....i don't see crosses burning everywhere and i really don't understand why any minority group would receive additional points on a standardized test....this to me reflects our society's penchant for political correctness.....i've taken plenty of sociology courses and i know the stats on minorities in school and their grades and how they are sometimes treated different by teachers etc....but a standardized test is a standardized test....if you don't do well it's because you aren't prepared, not because you're black, white, hispanic or whatever.....just seems so silly to me
 
Originally posted by popeyepete
to the person who assumes the original poster of the thread is rich and comfortable in front of his computer, please don't assume such racist things in the same way don't assume URM's are all poor or disadvantaged.

Please show me there I assumed they were rich? I make the assumption they are not poor, by virtue of the fact they have internet access and a computer. Given that they posted on this website, I'd say that assuming they have internet access is valid. I never assumed it was a him. I never stated all URMs are poor, I said ad-coms operate more on economics than race for that very reason. If you'd like to go back and reread what I wrote, and then explain to me where I made any of the assumptions you have accused me of, I will gladly listen.

Originally posted by popeyepete
Some are, and some aren't but same as white people. I dare you to seek out and find a poor white guy from a bad high school who goes to an ivy.

And this would prove what? I am quite certain you can find poor people of all races at ivy league schools. I know of one at Columbia who was about as poor as they come. By recognizing a poor white kid from Utah at an Ivy league school has nothing to support any idea you have presented. What is your point anyway?

Originally posted by popeyepete
Also, who cares if someone was disadvantaged, isn't this a capitalist democracy where if you work hard, you succeed?

I happen to care. If we as a society are to succeed, our most talented and resourceful people should be in a position to excel. It is a damn shame that someone who is ignorant to society and culture can go to an Ivy league school and possibly become a doctor when someone smarter and more talented didn't get the opportunity because of a bad starting position. Why should anyone care if someone else is given the opportunity to prove themself after a rough start in school?

Originally posted by popeyepete
How about the chronically lazy...

Screw them.

Originally posted by popeyepete
Why don't we also start making products cost less for URM's b/c they must not have as much money as others. Please open your minds and stop that racism!!!

Is that what a school ranked higher than an ivy league school teaches you? When you have no argument, you make analogies to product costs, which has nothing to do with this thread.
 
Hey Popeye - just out of curiosity, where do you go to school? I figure it must be MIT, Duke, Caltech, or stanford. Me - I go to Upenn. Anyway, I'd say you won this argument, hands-down. I respect other people's opinions, but only to the extent that they use LOGIC to back them up. No one else in this discussion really did that. Rather, this emotional garbage is pointless.

Best of luck with everything
 
i think popeyepete and aydinhatemi have it about right... i agree with them 100%. MCAT is not the best way for predicting a good doc, which is why it's only one of many criteria looked upon, however: the MCAT is a necessary evil and the best thing available that tests a person mental capacity and abilites that correlate with some of the good-doctor thinking skills (not the people skills).

I can not agree with affirmative action because I would not choose diversity over quality. I would rather be opperated on by a guy (regardless of race) who got into med school on his own merrit and for his own hard work than be opperated on by a guy who got in because largely because of their race.

I think at one time affirmative action had a place, but not anymore. I'm not saying that racism does not exist anymore, but it is a lot better than what it used to be and really does not have that big of an impact anymore.

People are almost as likely to stereotype a homely looking white guy (disadvantaged background, etc) as they would be a black guy, and vice versa. If a black guy and white guy both go to a med school interviews and both have a great record and emmit a professional glow, most people will not be more prejudice against one than the other. A few of my parents friends are on a couple different med school admission boards and they have personally told me that they have had interviewers not recommend people (black and white) solely on a whim: "He/She seemd kinda of arrogant", "I didn't like the way he/she held himself", "Didnt like the way he/she walked in the room", "didn't like they way he/she made eye contact:, etc, etc.... They are on the boards at 2 top notch schools where almost everyone who gets an interview have killer stats, so there isn't much left to mark people down on! That is what they joked with me about...but anyways, the bottom line:

Affirmative action no longer has a place in American society. It should be every man for himself with no reverse discrimination. A white/caucasion male should not have to work twice as hard as a minority just to get into med school. That is ridiculous!
 
i dont blaim URM for defending AA.... if i were a URM, i would be all for it as well! i am for anything that would give a better chance at getting into med school over the next guy....

all u have to do is answer one question: "does AA give you a better chance at getting into med school? does it make it mroe likely that you will get in over a white guy with the same or better stats?"
OF COURSE IT DOES, and this is what's not right! it's almost like AA is racist against white guys- reverse discrimination!

the biggest thing wrong with AA is that it keeps the thought and notion of a difference between races alive! this is why it is wrong! if you want to have a country where everyone walks "hand in hand" regardless of race, then you cannot create laws or government programs or allow popular ideas that still promote seperation of races through treating each race differently! there is no ****ing difference between me and a black guy or white guy or anything! i believe that on average and that in the eyes of God we are equals, and this should be what is upheld. one race should not be given a better chance at something than another race- this will only keep the idea of racism alive all the longer!

to simplify:
Because of AA: people will start to assume (And they already have) that minority doctors get in and through med school only because they are minorities ---> this will make white guys angery against minorities----> this promotes racism!

i have heard people say: "oh, he's a black doctor? oh, we don't go them. blah blah--- they didnt have to work as hard as white doctors" ...is this right? of course not! but it is what AA does, and is why it needs to be abolished or radically changed!

there are MANY people that share the belief that minority doctors had an easier time getting into and through med school and that as a result they are not as good of docots, and do you want to know why they have those "racist" beliefs? BECAUSE AA PROMOTES THOSE THOUGHTS, BY PROVIDING A DIFFERENCE/SEPERATION OF RACES!

AA only hurts minorities in the long run, and it is their enemy!
 
Originally posted by fun8stuff
i all u have to do is answer one question: "does AA give you a better chance at getting into med school? does it make it mroe likely that you will get in over a white guy with the same or better stats

fun8stuff, you are also benefiting from a form of AA. A white guy with equal stats will have the advantage over an Asian guy with the same stats. So whites get a form of AA over Asian applicants.
 
Besides using it as a tool to weed out, MCAT is used as a predcitor of how a student will do on the boards...and high board scores my friends to a medicalschool means money.
 
Originally posted by daffy726
I think all your points would make sense in an ideal society. Unfortunately, society today is far from ideal. Racism still exists, and there is no doubt in my mind that if affirmative action was abolished there would be almost no URM doctors. As a patient, not a premed, that would really bother me. I love the diversity in hospitals todays. My mom was turned down with a 4.0 GPA when she was applying to med schools over 25 years ago cuz she was pregnant at the time, and they didn't think a "mommy" could be a could be a good doctor (she did however get into Cornell cuz she had a female interviewer). I think diversity in colleges and in the workplace makes for a better society. There are many flaws to the system of affirmative action, but this system is necessary because our society is still bleeding with hatred and racism.


WELL SAID:clap: :clap:
 
Originally posted by fun8stuff
i dont blaim URM for defending AA.... if i were a URM, i would be all for it as well! i am for anything that would give a better chance at getting into med school over the next guy....

all u have to do is answer one question: "does AA give you a better chance at getting into med school? does it make it mroe likely that you will get in over a white guy with the same or better stats?"
OF COURSE IT DOES, and this is what's not right! it's almost like AA is racist against white guys- reverse discrimination!

the biggest thing wrong with AA is that it keeps the thought and notion of a difference between races alive! this is why it is wrong! if you want to have a country where everyone walks "hand in hand" regardless of race, then you cannot create laws or government programs or allow popular ideas that still promote seperation of races through treating each race differently! there is no ****ing difference between me and a black guy or white guy or anything! i believe that on average and that in the eyes of God we are equals, and this should be what is upheld. one race should not be given a better chance at something than another race- this will only keep the idea of racism alive all the longer!

to simplify:
Because of AA: people will start to assume (And they already have) that minority doctors get in and through med school only because they are minorities ---> this will make white guys angery against minorities----> this promotes racism!

i have heard people say: "oh, he's a black doctor? oh, we don't go them. blah blah--- they didnt have to work as hard as white doctors" ...is this right? of course not! but it is what AA does, and is why it needs to be abolished or radically changed!

there are MANY people that share the belief that minority doctors had an easier time getting into and through med school and that as a result they are not as good of docots, and do you want to know why they have those "racist" beliefs? BECAUSE AA PROMOTES THOSE THOUGHTS, BY PROVIDING A DIFFERENCE/SEPERATION OF RACES!

AA only hurts minorities in the long run, and it is their enemy!

To comment on your thoughts... this would only be true if WE WERE IN AN IDEAL SOCIETY.... WE ARE NOT...so until that time arrive policies must be in place to at least start society in that direction. WITHOUT IT the numbers of URM would be extremely low...due to a variety of factors...now I dont hear you addressing that!!!!

So if you have such strong thoughts as far as it being reverse racism..why dont you work out another possible solution..because just simply implying that everyone works hard and they will achieve is purely idealistic...because historically the numbers do not show this to be true. There are in fact other factors that work aghainst minorities and you seem so adamant against one of the strongest piece of legislation that gives them some sort of chance...


As to the individuals that believe minorities dont have to work as hard...that is pure ignorance and stems from minds who refuse to loook at the entire picture believing that institutionalized racism has some how vanished in less than sixty years.
 
Originally posted by ganglion
As to the individuals that believe minorities dont have to work as hard...that is pure ignorance and stems from minds who refuse to loook at the entire picture believing that institutionalized racism has some how vanished in less than sixty years.


Good points, and even if it had been vanished its effects have not. It is ilogical to think that with a few decades of AA all the generations that are currently living in economical, social and political disparity as a result of inequality have had enough "advantage" as to be on equal levels with the rest of society.
 
I would say adding NINE freakin points to the mcat score of blacks is more than just "catching up". I would say that it is an unfair advantage, not only over whites and asians (who get zero points added) but also over other minorities who only get, say, two points added. A poor disadvantaged black getting 9 points added relative to a rich white kid is one thing. You can agree or disagree with it (I disagree). But even if you agree with that policy, how can you justify a poor disadvantaged black still getting seven points more than a poor disadvantaged Mexican (who only gets 7)? These are actual numbers - I'm not just making them up.

The point is once you start adding points to a "standardized" test, the whole thing becomes a mess. Furthermore, I would claim that it isnt even beneficial to blacks. As long as they are getting into med school with a 20 or 22 on the mcat, they are not going to try nearly as hard as they would have if they were competing with the white kids getting the 30's. Why would they? There is no incentive! Unless you want to say that blacks are just inherently dumber than whites, and that the reason the black average on the mcat is an 18 (according to AAMC) versus an average of 25 for whites - but I dont buy that argument. I dont think they're dumber, I just think they don't care as much, and for good reason - THEY DONT HAVE TO!
 
Originally posted by Jugador75
. But even if you agree with that policy, how can you justify a poor disadvantaged black still getting seven points more than a poor disadvantaged Mexican (who only gets 7)? These are actual numbers - I'm not just making them up.

Sources for this please?

Now about the poor white student vs poor black student argument...The poor black has an excuse beyond his control generally speaking. How many white poor students grand parents picked cotton for food and roof?



The point is once you start adding points to a "standardized" test, the whole thing becomes a mess. Furthermore, I would claim that it isnt even beneficial to blacks. As long as they are getting into med school with a 20 or 22 on the mcat, they are not going to try nearly as hard as they would have if they were competing with the white kids getting the 30's. Why would they? There is no incentive! Unless you want to say that blacks are just inherently dumber than whites, and that the reason the black average on the mcat is an 18 (according to AAMC) versus an average of 25 for whites - but I dont buy that argument. I dont think they're dumber, I just think they don't care as much, and for good reason - THEY DONT HAVE TO!


Nonsense, once you are inside the medical education system each student URM or not it is all about what you do. May I say, sour grapes??


The reason the MCAT is lower for URMs is not about lack of intelligence but about something you may ignore called "the belt of poverty" - read into that and its effects on an ethnic group and its social performance and then return to the conversation.
 
Originally posted by FREE MCAT ?


Now about the poor white student vs poor black student argument...The poor black has an excuse beyond his control generally speaking. How many white poor students grand parents picked cotton for food and roof?



No, they just worked in coal mines or dug ditches or did whatever they had to for basic survival. It wasn't that long ago that any immigrant group was viewed as the scum of the Earth.
 
Originally posted by FREE MCAT ?
Sources for this please?

Now about the poor white student vs poor black student argument...The poor black has an excuse beyond his control generally speaking. How many white poor students grand parents picked cotton for food and roof?


What are you talking about?? I never said anything about a "poor white kid vs. poor black kid argument". Go back and read what I said. I said a "poor Mexican kid vs. poor black kid argument". My point is that blacks are not the only minorities or immigrants that were discriminated against, and blacks not only get help from AA with respect to whites, but they even get MORE help from AA than other minorities!

But to answer your question about how many white kids had grandfathers who picked cotton (i.e. were slaves) the answer is not many. But guess what? The same is true for blacks!! Slavery was abolished a century and half ago. What are you talking about cotton?

As far as the source for the nine additional points for blacks on the mcat - I will get that for you shortly. It's not my book, it's my friend's book. I am not an URM (you probably guessed that) unless you consider being jewish and being a first generation American a minority.
 
Originally posted by srmonkey
No, they just worked in coal mines or dug ditches or did whatever they had to for basic survival. It wasn't that long ago that any immigrant group was viewed as the scum of the Earth.


At least they got paid for their jobs and their masters would not hunt them down to kill them if they wished to return to their lands..

What am I saying, they left their lands on their own accord....
 
Originally posted by Jugador75
What are you talking about?? I never said anything about a "poor white kid vs. poor black kid argument". Go back and read what I said. I said a "poor Mexican kid vs. poor black kid argument". My point is that blacks are not the only minorities or immigrants that were discriminated against, and blacks not only get help from AA with respect to whites, but they even get MORE help from AA than other minorities!

But to answer your question about how many white kids had grandfathers who picked cotton (i.e. were slaves) the answer is not many. But guess what? The same is true for blacks!! Slavery was abolished a century and half ago. What are you talking about cotton?

As far as the source for the nine additional points for blacks on the mcat - I will get that for you shortly. It's not my book, it's my friend's book. I am not an URM (you probably guessed that) unless you consider being jewish and being a first generation American a minority.


You may not have made a poor black vs poor white student argument, but you surel mentioned black relative to white.

About blacks getting more help from AA than another URM substantiate it, until then it is all a speculation.


Where are you living to say blacks have the same number of recent generation slave relatives as white people?? :eek:
 
Originally posted by Amit1
fun8stuff, you are also benefiting from a form of AA. A white guy with equal stats will have the advantage over an Asian guy with the same stats. So whites get a form of AA over Asian applicants.

and i believe that is wrong too!
 
Originally posted by ganglion
To comment on your thoughts... this would only be true if WE WERE IN AN IDEAL SOCIETY.... WE ARE NOT...so until that time arrive policies must be in place to at least start society in that direction. WITHOUT IT the numbers of URM would be extremely low...due to a variety of factors...now I dont hear you addressing that!!!!

So if you have such strong thoughts as far as it being reverse racism..why dont you work out another possible solution..because just simply implying that everyone works hard and they will achieve is purely idealistic...because historically the numbers do not show this to be true. There are in fact other factors that work aghainst minorities and you seem so adamant against one of the strongest piece of legislation that gives them some sort of chance...


As to the individuals that believe minorities dont have to work as hard...that is pure ignorance and stems from minds who refuse to loook at the entire picture believing that institutionalized racism has some how vanished in less than sixty years.

well i agree with you partly. there was a time for AA, but that time has come and gone. i'm not saying racism has completly disappeared, but it has changed significantly in the last 120+ years!

AA is a form of racism and promotes it in itself. that is the problem. AA does not help racism at all! as long as AA is around, racism will live on. AA creates diferences and spaces between races. Is there a difference between a white guy coming from a poor disadvantaged background and an URM coming from the same background? Is there really that much difference? No, of course not, but why does the URM have an easier time getting into med school, etc? Yes, we do not live in an ideal society, but we never will! do you see poor white guys getting AA, or even as much help as a URM? of course not. a few schools may have special programs for the disadvantaged, but that doesnt compare to AA. we will never live in an ideal society and it is impossible to make accomidations for everyone.

AA has already served its purpose and it is time for people to pick their heads up and move on. In the last many years we have went from a mostly racist soceity to a society where very, very, very few people are racist. the ideas are still around, but mostly in the older generations and they are disappearing. AA is now doing more harm than good and if we do not do somethign about it soon, we will be making a huge mistake.
 
Originally posted by Jugador75
I would say adding NINE freakin points to the mcat score of blacks is more than just "catching up". I would say that it is an unfair advantage, not only over whites and asians (who get zero points added) but also over other minorities who only get, say, two points added. A poor disadvantaged black getting 9 points added relative to a rich white kid is one thing. You can agree or disagree with it (I disagree). But even if you agree with that policy, how can you justify a poor disadvantaged black still getting seven points more than a poor disadvantaged Mexican (who only gets 7)? These are actual numbers - I'm not just making them up.

The point is once you start adding points to a "standardized" test, the whole thing becomes a mess. Furthermore, I would claim that it isnt even beneficial to blacks. As long as they are getting into med school with a 20 or 22 on the mcat, they are not going to try nearly as hard as they would have if they were competing with the white kids getting the 30's. Why would they? There is no incentive! Unless you want to say that blacks are just inherently dumber than whites, and that the reason the black average on the mcat is an 18 (according to AAMC) versus an average of 25 for whites - but I dont buy that argument. I dont think they're dumber, I just think they don't care as much, and for good reason - THEY DONT HAVE TO!

great points! just more examples of how AA is only harmful to URM and how it in turn promotes racism!
 
Originally posted by FREE MCAT ?
Sources for this please?

Now about the poor white student vs poor black student argument...The poor black has an excuse beyond his control generally speaking. How many white poor students grand parents picked cotton for food and roof?

so when are you going to forgive and move on (not forget)? are you going to continue to promote being angry about something that happened in the past that no one can ever change? is this the best way to heal a major wound- to dwell on it for 200 years? of course not! you cannot go on generation to generation saying that white man needs to be forever sorry to the black man and owes him and should forever help him out!

now someone will say, "do u expect that it has totally healed within the last 60 yrs?" of course it hasn't, but the way of fixing a wound or insult is not to say sorry continuously. You say sorry, you make an attempt to right the wrong and to stop it, then you move on with your lives. it is not helping anyone to continually dwell on it! it only further promotes racism!


Originally posted by FREE MCAT ?

Nonsense, once you are inside the medical education system each student URM or not it is all about what you do. May I say, sour grapes??


The reason the MCAT is lower for URMs is not about lack of intelligence but about something you may ignore called "the belt of poverty" - read into that and its effects on an ethnic group and its social performance and then return to the conversation.


what you seem to lack is the ability to comprehend that poor white guys that grow up with poor black guys are both disadvantaged. it is true that if racism still significantly existed, the black guys would face more adversity from society, but racism has largely disappeared compared to 100 years ago... even within the last 50 years. Maybe you should talk to your grandparents or anyone that was around in that time era. they will tell you that is has immensly improved- beyound your shade of reasoning. that being said, disadvantged white guys face comparably the same amount of adversity- but let's say they don't. the disadvantaged white guys still face a ton of adversity coming from that type or background. is anything being done to help them? NO! is anything being done to help a rich, private schooled UHM? YES!

I have one question that I am unsure of (being serious): does AA take into account wealth or up bringing, or does it just take in race and ethnicity?
 
Originally posted by fun8stuff
this the best way to heal a major wound- to dwell on it for 200 years? of course not! you cannot go on generation to generation saying that white man needs to be forever sorry to the black man and owes him and should forever help him out!

AA was never intended to be a permanent part of society. It was (and is) a temporary (and flawed) solution.

I have one question that I am unsure of (being serious): does AA take into account wealth or up bringing, or does it just take in race and ethnicity?

It was originally to take race into account. i.e., if two equally qualified candidates, black and white, applied for the same job/position, the black candidate would be given more consideration. It was later extended to women.

The main problem now is that qualifications are completely subjective, and there isn't an ideal standard that all candidates (especially for school admissions) can be held up to; so we try to quantify it, to make things simpler. This quantification gives some people who achieve this standard a sense of entitlement, that simply does not exist.
 
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Amit1
fun8stuff, you are also benefiting from a form of AA. A white guy with equal stats will have the advantage over an Asian guy with the same stats. So whites get a form of AA over Asian applicants.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



>>and i believe that is wrong too!


no fun8stuff, amit's definitely right... while whites may have the most numbers applying, asians are the most overrrepresented demographic applying to medical school... south asians, for example, make up about one percent of the general population... but make up about 8% of medical school classes... true they bust their arse in college, so it doesnt make it any easier when it feels like every south asian applying has a 3.6+ gpa and a 30+ mcat ...:rolleyes:

point is, shut your trap about AA :laugh: :laugh:
 
Originally posted by deez4life
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Amit1
fun8stuff, you are also benefiting from a form of AA. A white guy with equal stats will have the advantage over an Asian guy with the same stats. So whites get a form of AA over Asian applicants.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



>>and i believe that is wrong too!


no fun8stuff, amit's definitely right... while whites may have the most numbers applying, asians are the most overrrepresented demographic applying to medical school... south asians, for example, make up about one percent of the general population... but make up about 8% of medical school classes... true they bust their arse in college, so it doesnt make it any easier when it feels like every south asian applying has a 3.6+ gpa and a 30+ mcat ...:rolleyes:

point is, shut your trap about AA :laugh: :laugh:

no u miss understood me: what i meant is that i think that it's wrong that whites are given an advantaged over asian guys. i was agreeing with amit! :)
 
Originally posted by FREE MCAT ?
At least they got paid for their jobs and their masters would not hunt them down to kill them if they wished to return to their lands..

What am I saying, they left their lands on their own accord....

Many "white" American's have grandparents (closer relatives than great-great-great-grandchildren of African slaves) that were not only "not paid" for their "jobs", but they were tortured and mass murdered. My grand mother was a slave in Auschwitz, and my great-grandparents were turned into bars of soap...

Actually, I am in favor of AA, but your comments are bothering me a lot. Just because someone is white it doesn't mean they don't have a history of hardship or persecution. If I were living in Germany now, I would want there to be some sort of AA for Jews (not that we need a handout, but just to make the Germans better people, by admitting their need for remorse.), but thank God America has been very good to my people and they don't owe me anything. America owes a lot to African Americans though, and I am glad that there is a system of AA here. I do pray though that in the near future there will be no need for AA. I can see though, from my own personal experiences, that racism still exists. Blacks would definitely have a harder time moving up if it weren't for AA compared to whites, and the only reason why there is any discussion of this, is because none of us were around b4 the 60s. If there were no incentive for schools and companies to accept URMs, the fact is that they wouldn't. A white looks like a more diligent, honest worker to most of society compared to blacks and hispanics. I know that is silly, but that's the place where society stands at this point.
What our job is now is to make sure we obliterate all hatred and racism that exists within each of us. Even if it is only against a particular person and not a group. Once hatred is created, it can only grow. If we all work on ourselves, and teach our children to love and not hate anyone, then maybe each of us can help change the world. Blaming a URM for not getting into medical school, will only add to the hatred and racism that already exists. I have a lot of hope for the future, but bashing AA (a system that has already helped change the status of URMs so much) is not what is going to help society. If it means that I'll have to work a little harder to get into medical school, that is a very small feat in the long run.
 
daffy726 - Great post. One of the most coherent arguments supporting AA that I've heard so far.
 
Originally posted by Badkarma25
i just stumbled across this thread and i find it appalling.....someone said that society is still rife with racism etc....i really don't see that....call me naive, call me whatever you want, but i really don't see that......and in regards to racism etc, i dont' think that canada and the u.s. are that different....i don't see crosses burning everywhere and i really don't understand why any minority group would receive additional points on a standardized test....this to me reflects our society's penchant for political correctness.....i've taken plenty of sociology courses and i know the stats on minorities in school and their grades and how they are sometimes treated different by teachers etc....but a standardized test is a standardized test....if you don't do well it's because you aren't prepared, not because you're black, white, hispanic or whatever.....just seems so silly to me

Total BS!!!
I live in Michigan and go to Windsor, Toronto and believe me Canada is not the same as the uS. Canada is more accepting regardless of race. Here in Michigan, a group of friends and I, all blacks have been called niggahs Yes, and this was in 2000 for freakin cryin out loud. So get your damn facts straight, racism is real, not because u dont experience it, cause I can so many racist things that has been said to me and people I know of color!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
Originally posted by fun8stuff
well i agree with you partly. there was a time for AA, but that time has come and gone. i'm not saying racism has completly disappeared, but it has changed significantly in the last 120+ years!

AA is a form of racism and promotes it in itself. that is the problem. AA does not help racism at all! as long as AA is around, racism will live on. AA creates diferences and spaces between races. Is there a difference between a white guy coming from a poor disadvantaged background and an URM coming from the same background? Is there really that much difference?


Indoubtedly there is a huge difference. History corroborates this.


AA has already served its purpose and it is time for people to pick their heads up and move on. In the last many years we have went from a mostly racist soceity to a society where very, very, very few people are racist. the ideas are still around, but mostly in the older generations and they are disappearing. AA is now doing more harm than good and if we do not do somethign about it soon, we will be making a huge mistake.

That is the error of your argument, AA is not about racism, although it deals with it, it is about EQUALITY and about REPRESENTATION. You see, the kind of resources a given ethnic group in america has had compared to the kind of resources minorities, including blacks, have had can not be compared. While Jewish, white and other white immigrants were receiving loans to buy property, buying stock, buying homes, educating their children, Blacks were dealing with segregation in elementary school...how about a huge difference! you draw your own extrapolations from there, as to how that makes it different today economically speaking for a Black as opposed to a white person, that is if you want to do History Justice.


Now about REPRESENTATION... This has to do with the needs of a community to have its members occupying leadership positions in society. In what respects decision making in such important issues such as HEALTH. Probably you can not relate to this, if you are part of the majority, but this is a real need of a patient. Think about it future doctors.
 
ALBANY, Ga. - Gerica McCrary said she cried when she heard about the decision to hold a separate white-only prom only a year after she helped bring black and white students together in her rural high school's first integrated prom.

Many white students at Taylor County High School, in the small town of Butler, said they plan to attend next week's mixed prom, but a small number of whites said they also wanted a private party.

Juniors are charged with planning the prom each year and last year they decided to have just one dance - the first integrated prom in 31 years in the rural Georgia county about 80 miles south of Atlanta.

Until then, parents and students organized separate proms for whites and blacks after school officials stopped sponsoring dances, in part because they wanted to avoid problems arising from interracial dating.

After school integration, separate proms were common in the rural South. Taylor County was among the last to cling to the practice.

Erin Posey, a white senior, said the entire junior class joined together in hosting last year's prom, but this year's junior class wasn't as unified.

``I think a lot of seniors were disappointed,'' she said. ``Now we have to choose between two groups of friends.''

The school has 439 students, 232 of them black. McCrary, who is black, and a white friend passed out fliers informing students of all races that they would be welcome at the May 9 prom at nearby Fort Valley State University. The private prom is Friday night 50 miles away in Columbus.

``I would have liked to see it together this year,'' said Gerard Latimore, a black junior class president who helped organize this year's integrated prom night. ``My class would have, too. It just didn't happen this year.''

Gerard's mother, Glenda Latimore, a 1972 graduate, attended a segregated prom. She said relatives in Philadelphia and New Jersey laugh when they read about Taylor County's prom.

``It seems like it's something secret,'' she said. ``The white people are afraid to speak up against the separation.

``But I went to a black prom and I had fun,'' she added. ``It didn't kill me, so I tell my son, 'Just go to the prom and have fun. Don't come out hating anyone.'''


05/02/03 18:11 EDT
 
Originally posted by daffy726
Many "white" American's have grandparents (closer relatives than great-great-great-grandchildren of African slaves) that were not only "not paid" for their "jobs", but they were tortured and mass murdered. My grand mother was a slave in Auschwitz, and my great-grandparents were turned into bars of soap...


I regret that sincerely, however none of your respected relatives in Europe contributed substantially (at least History does not show this) to the building of this nation. With the exception of those jew immigrants who may have come since the time of the pioneers. With no intention to diminish their tribulation, how many of them worked and built this nation making their owners rich and the rest of society (for those of you who claim your relatives did not own slaves) as black slaves did in America?

How many jew students were kept of almost 99% of higher education institutions? thus diminishing their access to a better future for that ethnic group as a whole?


Actually, I am in favor of AA, but your comments are bothering me a lot. Just because someone is white it doesn't mean they don't have a history of hardship or persecution.


No one said this should be about hardship and persecution, who in the world does not have an ancester who meets those two characteristics?

It is about making a profit of people's blood and sweat, of dehumanizing a group to the benefit of a nation called the United States of America - and not ever retributing a dime to those people or THEIR ETHNIC GROUP until one of its most prominent leaders is killed for preaching truths and then AA is brought in as a palliative.


If I were living in Germany now, I would want there to be some sort of AA for Jews (not that we need a handout, but just to make the Germans better people, by admitting their need for remorse.), but thank God America has been very good to my people and they don't owe me anything. America owes a lot to African Americans though, and I am glad that there is a system of AA here. I do pray though that in the near future there will be no need for AA. I can see though, from my own personal experiences, that racism still exists. Blacks would definitely have a harder time moving up if it weren't for AA compared to whites, and the only reason why there is any discussion of this, is because none of us were around b4 the 60s. If there were no incentive for schools and companies to accept URMs, the fact is that they wouldn't. A white looks like a more diligent, honest worker to most of society compared to blacks and hispanics. I know that is silly, but that's the place where society stands at this point.
What our job is now is to make sure we obliterate all hatred and racism that exists within each of us. Even if it is only against a particular person and not a group. Once hatred is created, it can only grow. If we all work on ourselves, and teach our children to love and not hate anyone, then maybe each of us can help change the world. Blaming a URM for not getting into medical school, will only add to the hatred and racism that already exists. I have a lot of hope for the future, but bashing AA (a system that has already helped change the status of URMs so much) is not what is going to help society. If it means that I'll have to work a little harder to get into medical school, that is a very small feat in the long run.


Thank you!
 
Discussion around this topic alone should help you still see that hatred towards minority groups still exist. As future medical providers, I challenge everyone of you to seek continuing education in the areas of cultural competency, cultural sensitivity, cultural specificity, Health Communication and Medical Errors. Don't just seek these opportunities for the CME/CE credits, do it because you care. It is very important to have diversity on all levels. Affirmative Action mostly benefits which of the following groups?--Blacks, White women, Poor, People with the 20 MCAT score. Do your research and the answer will be clear! Racism exist on many different levels. Just having a friend from another race and or ethnicity group does not put you in the clear from not being racist or predjuice towards that group.
To recognize the insidious and pervasive power of prejudice is to take the first step toward defeating it. Know what your own biases are and work on those areas (seek CE opportunities). Let's not only look at biases as a racial issue. You may have to work with patients who are sex offenders, HIV positive, people who have had 7 abortions and don't want birth control, an abusive husband/wife, etc. Don't treat all your patients equal, treat them as unique individuals!!!! TRY to Understand where they are coming from. Ask questions and communicate your misunderstandings in a professional manner. Use these moments as opportunities for growth. We are being trained to provide medical care and education to ALL patients. We need people who will understand people where they are coming from. That's one of the reasons why we have so many health disparities today. Having diverse schools only strengthens the program and our respective profession(s). I don't feel its necessary to address anyone personall about their comments; however, please look outside your own box. Not everyone from a particular culture is the same.

Read the link below, I think it will add insight to the topic of conversation.

http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2003/030319.htm


MarCohenPA2B



:clap:
 
WHITE PRIVILEGE: UNPACKING THE INVISIBLE KNAPSACK
by Peggy McIntosh
(Associate Director, Wellesley College Center for Research on Women)

Source: Independent School, Winter 90, Vol. 49 Issue 2, p31, 5p.

"I was taught to see racism only in individual
acts of meanness, not in invisible systems
conferring dominance on my group."
Through work to bring materials from women's studies into the rest of the curriculum, I have often noticed men's unwillingness to grant that they are over privileged, even though they may grant that women are disadvantaged. They may say they will work to improve women's status, in the society, the university, or the curriculum, but they can't or won't support the idea of lessening men's. Denials that amount to taboos surround the subject of advantages that men gain from women's disadvantages. These denials protect male privilege from being fully acknowledged, lessened, or ended.
Thinking through unacknowledged male privilege as a phenomenon, I realized that, since hierarchies in our society are interlocking, there was most likely a phenomenon of white privilege that was similarly denied and protected. As a white person, I realized I had been taught about racism as something that puts others at a disadvantage, but had been taught not to see one of its corollary aspects, white privilege, which puts me at an advantage.
I think whites are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege, as males are taught not to recognize male privilege. So I have begun in an untutored way to ask what it is like to have white privilege. I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was "meant" to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, codebooks, visas, clothes, tools, and blank checks.
Describing white privilege makes one newly accountable. As we in women's studies work to reveal male privilege and ask men to give up some of their power, so one who writes about having white privilege must ask, "Having described it, what will I do to lessen or end it?"
After I realized the extent to which men work from a base of unacknowledged privilege, I understood that much of their oppressiveness was unconscious. Then I remembered the frequent charges from women of color that white women whom they encounter are oppressive. I began to understand why we are justly seen as oppressive, even when we don't see ourselves that way. I began to count the ways in which I enjoy unearned skin privilege and have been conditioned into oblivion about its existence.
My schooling gave me no training in seeing myself as an oppressor, as an unfairly advantaged person, or as a participant in a damaged culture. I was taught to see myself as an individual whose moral state depended on her individual moral will. My schooling followed the pattern my colleague Elizabeth Minnich has pointed out: whites are taught to think of their lives as morally neutral, normative, and average, and also ideal, so that when we work to benefit others, this is seen as work that will allow "them" to be more like "us."
Daily effects of white privilege
I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place, and line of work cannot count on most of these conditions.
1. I can, if I wish, arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
2. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area that I can afford and in which I would want to live.
3. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
4. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
5. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
6. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
7. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
8. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
9. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods that fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can deal with my hair.
10. Whether I use checks, credit cards, or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
11. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
12. I can swear, or dress in second-hand clothes, or not answer letters without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race.
13. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
14. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
15. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
16. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color, who constitute the world's majority, without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
17. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider. 18. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to "the person in charge" I will be facing a person of my race.
19. If a traffic cop pulls me over, or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.
20. I can easily buy posters, postcards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children's magazines featuring people of my race.
21. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in rather than isolated, out of place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance, or feared.
22. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having coworkers on the job suspect that I got it because of race.
23. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.
24. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help my race will not work against me.
25. If my day, week, or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it has racial overtones.
26. I can choose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color that more or less match my skin.
Elusive and fugitive
I repeatedly forgot each of the realizations on this list until I wrote it down. For me white privilege has turned out to be an elusive and fugitive subject. The pressure to avoid it is great, for in facing it I must give up the myth of meritocracy. If these things are true, this is not such a free country; one's life is not what one makes it; many doors open for certain people through no virtues of their own.
In unpacking this invisible knapsack of white privilege, I have listed conditions of daily experience that I once took for granted. Nor did I think of any of these perquisites as bad for the holder. I now think that we need a more finely differentiated taxonomy of privilege, for some of these varieties are only what one would want for everyone in a just society, and others give license to be ignorant, oblivious, arrogant, and destructive.
I see a pattern running through the matrix of white privilege, a pattern of assumptions that were passed on to me as a white person. There was one main piece of cultural turf; it was my own turf, and I was among those who could control the turf. My skin color was an asset for any more I was educated to want to make. I could think of myself as belonging in major ways and of making social systems work for me. I could freely disparage, fear, neglect, or be oblivious to anything outside of the dominant cultural forms. Being of the main culture, I could also criticize it fairly freely.
In proportion as my racial group was being made confident, comfortable, and oblivious, other groups were likely being made unconfident, uncomfortable, and alienated. Whiteness protected me from many kinds of hostility, distress, and violence, which I was being subtly trained to visit, in turn, upon people of color.
For this reason, the word "privilege" now seems to me misleading. We usually think of privilege as being a favored state, whether earned or conferred by birth or luck. Yet some of the conditions I have described here work systematically to over empower certain groups. Such privilege simply confers dominance because of one's race or sex.
 
[continued from above post]
Earned strength, unearned power
I want, then, to distinguish between earned strength and unearned power conferred systemically. Power from unearned privilege can look like strength when it is in fact permission to escape or to dominate. But not all of the privileges on my list are inevitably damaging. Some, like the expectation that neighbors will be decent to you, or that your race will not count against you in court, should be the norm in a just society. others, like the privilege to ignore less powerful people, distort the humanity of the holders as well as the ignored groups.
We might at least start by distinguishing between positive advantages, which we can work to spread, and negative types of advantage, which unless rejected will always reinforce our present hierarchies. For example, the feeling that one belongs within the human circle, as Native Americans say, should not be seen as privilege for a few. Ideally it is an unearned entitlement. At present, since only a few have it, it is an unearned advantage for them. This paper results from a process of coming to see that some of the power that I originally saw as attendant on being a human being in the United States consisted in unearned advantage and conferred dominance.
I have met very few men who are truly distressed about systemic, unearned male advantage and conferred dominance. And so one question for me and others like me is whether we will be like them, or whether we will get truly distressed, even outraged, about unearned race advantage and conferred dominance, and, if so, what we will do to lessen them. In any case, we need to do more work in identifying how they actually affect our daily lives. Many, perhaps most, of our white students in the United States think that racism doesn't affect them because they are not people of color; they do not see "whiteness" as a racial identity. In addition, since race and sex are not the only advantaging systems at work, we need similarly to examine the daily experience of having age advantage, or ethnic advantage, or physical ability, or advantage related to nationality, religion, or sexual orientation.
Difficulties and dangers surrounding the task of finding parallels are many. Since racism, sexism, and heterosexism are not the same, the advantages associated with them should not be seen as the same. In addition, it is hard to disentangle aspects of unearned advantage that rest more on social class, economic class, race, religion, sex, and ethnic identity than on other factors. Still, all of the oppressions are interlocking, as the members of the Combahee River Collective pointed out in their "Black Feminist Statement" of 1977.
One factor seems clear about all of the interlocking oppressions. They take both active forms, which we can see, and embedded forms, which as a member of the dominant group one is taught not to see. In my class and place, I did not see myself as a racist because I was taught to recognize racism only in individual acts of meanness by members of my group, never in invisible systems conferring unsought racial dominance on my group from birth.
Disapproving of the systems won't be enough to change them. I was taught to think that racism could end if white individuals changed their attitudes. But a "white" skin in the United States opens many doors for whites whether or not we approve of the way dominance has been conferred on us. Individual acts can palliate, but cannot end, these problems.
To redesign social systems we need first to acknowledge their colossal unseen dimensions. The silences and denials surrounding privilege are the key political tool here. They keep the thinking about equality or equity incomplete, protecting unearned advantage and conferred dominance by making these subjects taboo. Most talk by whites about equal opportunity seems to me now to be about equal opportunity to try to get into a position of dominance while denying that systems of dominance exist.
It seems to me that obliviousness about white advantage, like obliviousness about male advantage, is kept strongly inculturated in the United States so as to maintain the myth of meritocracy, the myth that democratic choice is equally available to all. Keeping most people unaware that freedom of confident action is there for just a small number of people props up those in power and serves to keep power in the hands of the same groups that have most of it already.
Although systemic change takes many decades, there are pressing questions for me and, I imagine, for some others like me if we raise our daily consciousness on the perquisites of being light-skinned. What will we do with such knowledge? As we know from watching men, it is an open question whether we will choose to use unearned advantage to weaken hidden systems of advantage, and whether we will use any of our arbitrarily awarded power to try to reconstruct power systems on a broader
 
Originally posted by Badkarma25
i just stumbled across this thread and i find it appalling.....someone said that society is still rife with racism etc....i really don't see that....call me naive, call me whatever you want, but i really don't see that......and in regards to racism etc, i dont' think that canada and the u.s. are that different....i don't see crosses burning everywhere and i really don't understand why any minority group would receive additional points on a standardized test....this to me reflects our society's penchant for political correctness.....i've taken plenty of sociology courses and i know the stats on minorities in school and their grades and how they are sometimes treated different by teachers etc....but a standardized test is a standardized test....if you don't do well it's because you aren't prepared, not because you're black, white, hispanic or whatever.....just seems so silly to me

:wow: You have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know where you grew up or what race you are, but believe me, racism is still alive and well. Perhaps if you grew up in my hometown and witnessed the ni**er jokes, cross burnings, kkk rallies, racist vandalism, and hate crimes, you'd understand that racism is not something that disappeared long ago. It's still a reality, an ugly, unfortunate reality.
 
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