Affirmative Action changes

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This has nothing to do with affirmative action, really, but this comment from the comments section is interesting (and I agree):

"The real diversity that is lacking on college campuses today is not diversity of skin color but rather diversity of the mind. College campuses today are overwhelmingly liberal and increasingly intolerant of opposing views. The recent protests leading to cancellations of commencement speakers is just the tip of the iceberg.

Instead of patronizingly attempting to seek contrived diversity through race based affirmative action, colleges should seek students who dare to question the wisdom of AA, or oppose gay marriage, oppose immigration. Our college campuses are supposed to be places of open discourse, exchange of different ideas and opinions, instead it has become places where opinions are stifled, where students are simply indoctrinated with the liberal ideals."


Another comment:

"Having spent the past twelve years working at and with colleges and universities of all types and sizes--private and public, liberal arts and research, big and small--I am far more concerned with the sweeping lack of intellectual and ideological diversity than I am with racial diversity."
 
^^^ It's as if most conservatives who oppose gay marriage (among other issues) have given much thought or consideration about the feelings of those they so fiercely oppose or opened up to "discourse and exchange of different ideas and opinions".
 
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allenlchs said:
^^^ It's as if most conservatives who oppose gay marriage (among other issues) have given much thought or consideration about the feelings of those they so fiercely oppose or opened up to "discourse and exchange of different ideas and opinions".
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It doesn't really work when people from both sides treat the other side as if they're idiotic (much like you're doing here). The point here is not to vilify liberal thinking, but rather to say that there is a liberal lean to colleges that sometimes becomes intolerant to people they deem intolerant.
 
Fabio Lanzoni said:
It doesn't really work when people from both sides treat the other side as if they're idiotic (much like you're doing here). The point here is not to vilify liberal thinking, but rather to say that there is a liberal lean to colleges that sometimes becomes intolerant to people they deem intolerant.
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Ah, the condescending type. Yup, it's one of my beefs as well. But I think that's also part of the phase. Someone who's condescending by nature just adopts a specific ideology and belittles others with opposing views. And yes, it's more convenient from the comfort of an academic ivory tower.
 
J Senpai said:
Rational discourse is something we need more of and someone can oppose the ideas of another without resorting to intolerance. However, there are certain issues which have either a wrong or a right side.
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For example, Barry Bonds should have been a first ballot Hall of Famer. That's indisputable.
 
J Senpai said:
Uhh. Yeah, S--sure. Baseball!!
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Ok fine. Not the best example. But it's the first thing that came to mind. There wasn't rational discourse about this. It was a bunch of hypocritical baseball writers that decided to apply COMPLETELY different standards to him (in part because he's not the nicest guy).
So let me tie this into this discussion. It's about applying relevant standards to an imperfect process. And that wasn't the case for Barry Bonds.
 
In terms of baseball?!
Barry Bonds already had 400+ home runs and 400+ stolen bases before he started using "flaxseed oil and arthritis cream." He was already better than every player of his generation with the exception of Griffey. He started using the stuff in an era in which tons of players were using. World Series, MVP's, and Cy Young's were won with the help of PED's in many cases. It was part of the game (the same way players of past generations took stimulants). Also, Bonds was way better than everyone else when he was on the stuff. The Hall of Fame is loaded with imperfections because it's an imperfect sport. And these hypocritical writers decided to single out Barry...

In terms of admissions, it's the same. Apply standards that are relevant to the process. It's imperfect. Ppl will be pissed. But don't keep the best candidates out.

And Barry Bonds was one of the best candidates.
 
Since when did this forum get so conservative
Fabio Lanzoni said:
"The real diversity that is lacking on college campuses today is not diversity of skin color but rather diversity of the mind. College campuses today are overwhelmingly liberal and increasingly intolerant of opposing views. The recent protests leading to cancellations of commencement speakers is just the tip of the iceberg.

Instead of patronizingly attempting to seek contrived diversity through race based affirmative action, colleges should seek students who dare to question the wisdom of AA, or oppose gay marriage, oppose immigration. Our college campuses are supposed to be places of open discourse, exchange of different ideas and opinions, instead it has become places where opinions are stifled, where students are simply indoctrinated with the liberal ideals."
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What an incredibly naive and ignorant idea
 
There are reasons that some ideas fall out of favor among college educated populations. Fill schools with more people who oppose "liberal indoctrination"? 70% of people aged 18-33 are in favor of gay marriage--and most of us are politically independent. That number is only increasing in the younger populations. It's amazing to me that the response of many people to overwhelming differences in opinion is that it must be the "liberal media" or "liberal indoctrination" of academia. Not everyone comes to their beliefs through inherited political ideology but rather through deep reflection, or experiences, or research, or personal relationships.

I'm happy that certain ideas once embraced can become anathema. That is what intellectual progress looks like--not artificially propping weak, destructive viewpoints but instead advancing such that we seldom need to discuss the antiquated ideas of the past (eugenics, divine right of kings, racial superiority, earth-centered universe, etc etc etc).
 
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darkjedi said:
Since when did this forum get so conservative

What an incredibly naive and ignorant idea
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It's a forum that mainly attracts affluent pre-meds that have never had to earn a thing in their life and think those damn minorities are stealing their med school seats, but think once they get in they'll all match derm and don't want that liberal in the white house taking their money.
 
There are plenty of conservatives on college campuses. Also visit some Christian colleges, they are like mini republican national conventions.
 
Conservatives are a minority of people with a higher education degree. And, no, it has nothing to do with indoctrination (talk about condescending and belittling). Are you saying they should be forcefully over-represented in college admissions?
 
Why are y'all having so much trouble with this? All the quoted commenters were saying was that there needs to be more open discussion that respects the views of others, both from the left and right. No one is forcing schools to select for conservative students.

I will say that many far right view points are bad; grounded in religion and indefensible, not to mention they're often discriminatory. But the opposing views aren't just about same sex marriage or gender equality. The topics of government spending, immigration and abortion rights, among others are still wide open with many pros and cons to discuss.

The problem is the knee jerk reactions people have when exposed to something that sets off an alarm in their heads as being opposed to their views. They shut people out. That's not intelligent discussion, that's cognitive censorship. Too often people jump to conclusions. People have assumed I'm a redneck right winger just because I'm from Georgia. "Seriously? You don't even know me." I'd say, but they stick to the idea that I'm a bumpkin because of my home state. That isn't rational thought. That's holding to some stereotypical viewpoint handed down by your parents or someone else. It's nonsense and it's not fair.

All they're saying is that people should think for themselves.
 
J Senpai said:
The problem is the knee jerk reactions people have when exposed to something that sets off an alarm in their heads as being opposed to their views. They shut people out. That's not intelligent discussion, that's cognitive censorship. Too often people jump to conclusions. People have assumed I'm a redneck right winger just because I'm from Georgia. "Seriously? You don't even know me." I'd say, but they stick to the idea that I'm a bumpkin because of my home state. That isn't rational thought. That's holding to some stereotypical viewpoint handed down by your parents or someone else. It's nonsense and it's not fair.
.
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This is what I was referring to earlier with my first comment, but I didn't phrase it well. During my first undergrad, a lot of opinionated ppl were prone to knee-jerk reactions and sweeping generalizations. And even if I agreed with some of their political views, I wasn't pleased with their delivery. I just figured it was a phase more than anything.

Call me idealistic, but I'm more in favor of polite discourse.
 
You can call me a one issue voter because while economy, government spendings, and creating new jobs is important; there is no good in it for those who can simply be fired for who they are from those newly-created jobs; for those who cannot receive any federal benefits from the government because they are an unrecognized second class citizens. FYI, Mitt Romney himself said that he never voted for a Democrat when he had a Republican at hand http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...omney-says-ive-never-voted-democrat-when-the/

I think that the formation of political views is much more complex than jut thinking of it in terms of people going through different stages in life, when there is no grain of research supporting such notion. What is known is that industrially developed countries have been getting more liberal and that voters can also get more liberal on certain topics.
 
allenlchs said:
You can call me a one issue voter because while economy, government spendings, and creating new jobs IS important; there is no good in it for those who can be legally fired for who they are from those newly-created jobs; for those who cannot receive any federal benefits from the government because they are an unrecognized second class citizens. FYI, Mitt Romney himself said that he never voted for a Democrat when he had a Republican at hand http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...omney-says-ive-never-voted-democrat-when-the/

I think that the formation of political views is much more complex than jut thinking of it in terms of people going through different stages in life, when there is no grain of research supporting such notion. What is known is that industrially developed countries have been getting more liberal and that voters can also get more liberal on certain topics.
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How arrogant people are to assume the other side is simply going through a phase, and if enlightened enough, they will surely arrive at the logical and correct opinions the right holds.
 
allenlchs said:
You can call me a one issue voter because while economy, government spendings, and creating new jobs is important; there is no good in it for those who can simply be fired for who they are from those newly-created jobs; for those who cannot receive any federal benefits from the government because they are an unrecognized second class citizens. FYI, Mitt Romney himself said that he never voted for a Democrat when he had a Republican at hand http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...omney-says-ive-never-voted-democrat-when-the/

I think that the formation of political views is much more complex than jut thinking of it in terms of people going through different stages in life, when there is no grain of research supporting such notion. What is known is that industrially developed countries have been getting more liberal and that voters can also get more liberal on certain topics.
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PreciousHamburgers said:
How arrogant people are to assume the other side is simply going through a phase, and if enlightened enough, they will surely arrive at the logical and correct opinions the right holds.
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@allenlchs
I totally agree about ppl being treated like second class citizens. It's flat out wrong.
@PreciousHamburgers, I hope you didn't misinterpret my comments. I wasn't referring to holding specific views as a phase. It was more about being very politically involved and opinionated and later abandoning some of those views and/or practices. I just used left-leaning ppl as an example because I was around them more. Also, some who I felt were totally correct with their views just happened to be rude to others with opposing opinions.

And the possible "phase" that I was speaking about was only a personal observation. Nothing scientific about it.
 
I'm not a fan of affirmative action. The fact that anyone would get some sort of advantage based solely on race is comically stupid (sorry for the condescension, but while I'll agree that most issues have two sides, I strongly believe that this issue, along with gay marriage and maybe a handful of others, is just not reasonably debatable).

I agree that people who have faced disadvantages should be given some sort of advantage in this process. But equating race with disadvantage is just wrong. I am a woman of some color (clearly ethnic), but I don't feel that I have faced any 'disadvantage' because of this. While racism is alive and well, I've never found it hard to deal with the few ignorant (but often well-intentioned) people I've known. It's part of life, and nowadays in most parts of the US, it's not an enormous disadvantage. Economically, I probably have more advantages than the average applicant. Also, while I do have many ethnic origins, I don't exactly partake in those traditions. I'm not really bringing much diversity to a school, aside from my skin color and a checked box that will add to their diversity statistics.

Also, as far as political background goes, I think that's absolute nonsense. Schools tend come along with some sort of overarching purpose, which often includes conservative or liberal ideals. Students who are more liberal tend to be attracted to more liberal schools, and vise versa, and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. While discussions might be more interesting with varied political views, I don't really think that highly of the mercurial political views of an 18 year old college freshman. I think most people change their political affiliations as they age and learn more about the world anyway. Why not have a campus mostly filled with people that agree with the college's mission statement? We don't go to college to figure out our political viewpoints. Those solidify and grow much later with experience, not necessarily knowledge.

EDIT: Also, the commencement controversies were mostly overblown by the media. Oftentimes, it was the commencement speaker themselves that withdrew after a few meager protests from a very small percentage of the student body. In one case, the speaker was completely liberal, as were the protesters! The media made it all out to be a political bashing of innocent speakers by liberal college students. I thought it was more about the wounded pride of well-connected individuals.
 
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echo87 said:
I don't understand this notion that people ought to be tolerant of intolerance... It's a laughably bad one. Notice I'm not talking about personal beliefs which are, as with most things private, of no business to others.
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I believe the first part and third part of this paragraph contributed to an inconsistent discussion on this thread:

"Instead of patronizingly attempting to seek contrived diversity through race based affirmative action, colleges should seek students who dare to question the wisdom of AA, or oppose gay marriage, oppose immigration. Our college campuses are supposed to be places of open discourse, exchange of different ideas and opinions, instead it has become places where opinions are stifled, where students are simply indoctrinated with the liberal ideals."

Although, I agree with the bolded part.
 
allenlchs said:
You don't just take someone's words out of the context @Cyberdyne 101
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Are you referring to this?
^^^ It's as if most conservatives who oppose gay marriage (among other issues) have given much thought or consideration about the feelings of those they so fiercely oppose or opened up to "discourse and exchange of different ideas and opinions".

I agree with this.
 
@allenlchs
I thought I hit the like button on your comment when it first popped up. I feel like I was taken out of context. Also, my choice of words was rather flawed.
 
Cyberdyne 101 said:
I believe the first part and third part of this paragraph contributed to an inconsistent discussion on this thread:

"Instead of patronizingly attempting to seek contrived diversity through race based affirmative action, colleges should seek students who dare to question the wisdom of AA, or oppose gay marriage, oppose immigration. Our college campuses are supposed to be places of open discourse, exchange of different ideas and opinions, instead it has become places where opinions are stifled, where students are simply indoctrinated with the liberal ideals."

Although, I agree with the bolded part.
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I was actually referring to this post when I said "out of context". IMO the bold part does not quite convey what the original commenter tried to say, as in my opinion they tried to advocate for some sort of advancement of conservative thought on college campuses.

And then the way things got quoted I thought you were referring to me as the "condescending type", and then I just got totally confused with baseball references...

Well, we both took each other out of the context
 
allenlchs said:
I was actually referring to this post when I said "out of context". IMO the bold part does not quite convey what the original commenter tried to say, as in my opinion they tried to advocate for some sort of advancement of conservative thought on college campuses.

And then the way things got quoted I thought you were referring to me as the "condescending type", and then I just got totally confused with baseball references...

Well, we both took each other out of the context
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You are correct that the bolded part did not convey what the original commentator said. But in a subsequent post he spoke about both sides treating each other as if they're idiotic (which happens with complex multi-faceted issues). And although he was putting you in that category, I was not. I didn't think you were being condescending. And I should have come to your defense.
I am pretty liberal in many regards, but some of my liberal peers in college were condescending and unwilling to compromise (as is the case with some conservatives). And that's what I was referring to.

And in terms of baseball, it's an analogy about another flawed process. The writers decide who gets in (like it or not). Although later it's a veteran's committee (I think). With med school, it's the admissions committees. Ppl will be upset (ie why is Jack Morris not in the HOF or why does this candidate get some preference). But some cases are egregious (like Barry Bonds) and we at least need to get that right.

I was also hoping this would not derail into another cyclical flame-war about race and URM's.
 
Lol I think I've proved my point with you guys over reacting with the mere mentioning of a possible liberal lean in colleges. My job here is done. I'm not even conservative, I just recognize the hypocrisy in liberals just like liberals think conservatives are hypocrites. Have a blessed day folks!
 
Fabio Lanzoni said:
Lol I think I've proved my point with you guys over reacting with the mere mentioning of a possible liberal lean in colleges. My job here is done. I'm not even conservative, I just recognize the hypocrisy in liberals just like liberals think conservatives are hypocrites. Have a blessed day folks!
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I never saw you expressing your point, except for that insulting one, in this thread. What you did is quoted someone else's thoughts from an outside web source and put it here sweeping this thread away from its original topic.
 
allenlchs said:
I never saw you expressing your point, except for that insulting one, in this thread. What you did is quoted someone else's thoughts from an outside web source and put it here sweeping this thread away from its original topic.
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My opinion is that I agree, which I did write. The "outside web source" is the main article of this topic. I posted minimally so far; you on the other hand, have been quite instrumental in gearing this thread in that direction.
 
Of course number of people believing something does not make something justifiable. Think about slaves!

Also, please do not think that people oppose gay marriage based on nothing.

I don't see any problems two humans getting married and living together. However, I have problems with marriage benefits. As APA rejected most of pro-gay research because they are biased and small sample sized, gay marriage is yet proven to be positive to our society. Why we give out tax cuts to heterosexual couple? It brings positive effect on society, and thus government encourage heterosexual couple with benefits. The burden of proof is on homosexual people that indeed they bring positive effect.

It is like trying to get States to recognize my bacon eating. If I can prove that me eating bacon brings positive effect, state should provide me benefit for my bacon eating. And of course, state cannot ban me for eating bacon.
 
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