After school Debt

[Biomajir]

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I posted a similar question in the prevet forum, but figured I should get some advice from people who are experiencing this now. Is the debt really that bad? I will probably owe around 200,000 in debts when it is all said and done. Undergrad really cost alot, and I know vet school does too. All the doctors at work keep saying the debt is not worth it and to do something else. What do you guys think? Is the debt that bad? I mean, are some of us going to be living in cardboard boxes and not have the money to even buy food and medical care? Even DVM magazine said most graduates will not ever pay off all of the debt. It is very scary.

 

[dyachei]

I posted a similar question in the prevet forum, but figured I should get some advice from people who are experiencing this now. Is the debt really that bad? I will probably owe around 200,000 in debts when it is all said and done. Undergrad really cost alot, and I know vet school does too. All the doctors at work keep saying the debt is not worth it and to do something else. What do you guys think? Is the debt that bad? I mean, are some of us going to be living in cardboard boxes and not have the money to even buy food and medical care? Even DVM magazine said most graduates will not ever pay off all of the debt. It is very scary.

It depends on the school you go to, whether or not you're IS, etc. I personally will end with about 100K debt going IS at UTCVM (before interest). But thats not just for tuition, thats for ALL my living expenses, books, and tuition.

 

[critterfixer]

While I think the cost, particularly for out of state tuition, is far out of proportion to most starting salaries, I think the magazine overexaggerates the limited earning potential for veterinarians. While we are unlikely to see the kind of salaries physicians earn, veterinarians still make quite a bit more than the average person. So while I think the article is alarmist, it would be smart to take it as a cautionary tale when considering whether or not to go out of state or borrow much more than needed.

I am fortunate in that I am married and my husband makes a good income. I was able to pay cash for the first year, and will probably end up about $50K in debt if I take out financial aid for the next 3 years. We've just accepted that my first year or two of salary will go completely toward paying loans off, so I hope to be out of debt quickly.

That said, something does need to be done about the disproportionate rise in tuition given the salaries available. I just don't know what that something is.

 

[Epidemivet]

Thanks for posting this question Biomajir! I too am very concerned about the amount of financial aid I will need to attend Western U in the fall ($150,000). Another factor in my situation is that I am 32 and don't have as many years to work to pay those debts off as a 22 yr old would. In my mind, I also don't want to "waste" a year or two moving somewhere to gain residency for IS tuition when I could already be on my way to a DVM at Western. Any input from those in a similar situation or facing similar debts would be greatly appreciated!🙂

 

[projekt]

It seems that if you accumulate $100k more debt going to Western, and starting salary is less than that, you're wasting more than a year (financially speaking) starting immediately. But of course you have to consider whether you are better off emotionally starting now, and whether you won't feel overwhelmed afterwards.

 

[Epidemivet]

Good point, projekt. I hadn't thought of it that way. Another consideration for me is that my husband and I would like to have kids after vet school. That would be another thing to push back if I wait a year or two to in the hopes of being accepted IS someplace else. Having worked as an embryologist for an IVF clinic I have a healthy fear of putting off having kids for too long.

Honestly, the thought of blowing a sure thing and moving to get in IS somewhere (which isn't guaranteed) freaks me out as much, if not more, than the debt load I will incur at Western. And I'm excited about Western. I liked the people and the school a lot. Also, my husband is a freelance writer so being close to either NYC or LA is ideal for him. Moving to any other state would decrease his earning potential and ability to achieve his long-term career goals considerably. I think I have my answer 🙂. But I'm still curious about how other vets are dealing with this in the real world.

 

[projekt]

It sounds like you've put a lot of thought into it. I'm dealing with it by going in state and having lots of avenues for making myself worth a lot when I come out 🙂 I hate debt, but for me it's an investment. 90% of the things I could see myself doing in 10 years involve vet school 🙂

 

[Epidemivet]

When you say you're working to make yourself worth a lot when you come out do you mean getting a dual degree? Maybe you've already gone into this on another thread.

 

[projekt]

I will either do a residency or follow up vet school with an MBA.

 

[Rebeki]

In the pre-vet forum someone mentioned the "rewards" program that Banfield has for vet students if they complete a certain number of hours before they graduate. I read their website, but I was wondering if any vet students/vets had any insight on this program?

Thanks🙂

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Well...it's Banfield, eh...if you don't mind sacrificing your independence, personal ethics, and decision making authority to a suit in a corporate building who knows jack about veterinary medicine, for the sake of money (which they throw at vet student like candy).....I just know too many students who have worked for them (and client who had at one time used them) and come away with very frustrating stories and clarifications on their sugar-coated "policies". End rant. However, they do pay a ridiculous amount....definitely trying to play that student loan angle.

 

[Rebeki]

Hmmm....I think I had read some less than glowing opinions on Banfield on this forum. I think I'll do a search for that. I guess I have a little while to think about it. I (like pretty much everyone here) am worried about paying back student loans so I want to take every option into consideration.

 

[dyachei]

Hmmm....I think I had read some less than glowing opinions on Banfield on this forum. I think I'll do a search for that. I guess I have a little while to think about it. I (like pretty much everyone here) am worried about paying back student loans so I want to take every option into consideration.

The thing about Banfield is that it's run like what it is - a corporation. This means that you sell packages to consumers which include things they don't really need. You also don't make too many decisions, you put everything into a computer, etc. There are negatives and positives to this. As a vet, you're more likely to do things you wouldn't do at a smaller practice in terms of testing and procedures and you will become familiar with them. At the same time, you lose a lot of autonomy.

I was going to do this until they wanted me to reapply online when they changed their system. It was just a huge hassle when I could already have a job with a clinic I've worked with before.

 

[StealthDog]

I've heard some good things about working with VCA clinics, and I think they also have a loan repayment program if you sign up to work with them for so many years after graduation...

 

[rachroo]

what are VCA clinics?

 

[mavtwi]

VCA is another corporate animal hospital. They are the ones who run Antech Diagnostics and also have local clinics.

The last corporate group is NVA. They are the least corporate of the 3 (if that makes sense). Basically they buy established clinics whose owners are looking to sell for some reason, they don't open new clinics from the ground up. They are corporate in the sense that there is a board of directors who control finances (but don't tell you what to spend your money on, yay!). For the most part the corporation is there to take care of all of the big financial stuff (they buy big, expensive equipment; take care of payroll, etc). The doctors are allowed to practice however they wish (as long as they are practicing good medicine of course) and aren't subjected to protocols and such like they are at Banfield. You would actually have a difficult time even telling if a clinic is NVA owned because they don't put there name anywhere in the building or change the doctors or staff when they buy a practice. And yeah, each contract is individualized when you agree to a job there. They will work with what you deem important (retirement accounts, benefits for spouse/dependents, loan repayment)

Lol, so why did I tell you all of that about NVA when you asked about VCA? I have a point I swear! So basically when you look at the three: Banfield is the most corporate controlled, NVA allows the most freedom to the practice and doctors, and VCA is in between the two somewhere (but closer to NVA).

 

[VAgirl]

VCA is another corporate animal hospital. They are the ones who run Antech Diagnostics and also have local clinics.

The last corporate group is NVA. They are the least corporate of the 3 (if that makes sense). Basically they buy established clinics whose owners are looking to sell for some reason, they don't open new clinics from the ground up. They are corporate in the sense that there is a board of directors who control finances (but don't tell you what to spend your money on, yay!). For the most part the corporation is there to take care of all of the big financial stuff (they buy big, expensive equipment; take care of payroll, etc). The doctors are allowed to practice however they wish (as long as they are practicing good medicine of course) and aren't subjected to protocols and such like they are at Banfield. You would actually have a difficult time even telling if a clinic is NVA owned because they don't put there name anywhere in the building or change the doctors or staff when they buy a practice. And yeah, each contract is individualized when you agree to a job there. They will work with what you deem important (retirement accounts, benefits for spouse/dependents, loan repayment)

Lol, so why did I tell you all of that about NVA when you asked about VCA? I have a point I swear! So basically when you look at the three: Banfield is the most corporate controlled, NVA allows the most freedom to the practice and doctors, and VCA is in between the two somewhere (but closer to NVA).

Very interesting. Thank you!

 

[birdvet2006]

Just to add my .02 cents, I work for VCA and have for several years (even before I was a vet, I worked for a hospital that sold to VCA). VCA does NOT control what you do as a vet - they support quality medicine. VCA and other corporations are given a bad rep by being in the same category as Banfield.

If you have questions about VCA, I'm happy to answer them. In my experience, they do NOT have a loan repayment programme. That would be amazing (!). They also do not pay as well as Banfield. Banfield, IMO, is desperate for vets and therefore is willing to pay a lot (and they make a lot from their "packages" of medical services that they sell...VCA has nothing like this). I have heard that Banfield is offering $90k+ to new grads...and also signing bonuses etc. But that's just rumour. I personally will NOT compromise my personal ethics to work for a corporation that has certain medical policies like Banfield.

 

[twelvetigers]

The corporate ladder is going through a major rearrangement on the Antech Diagnostics part of the company. Personally, after having worked at the lab, I'd prefer to distance myself from Antech altogether. That said, I agree that the clinical part of the company is nothing like Banfield.

 

[Electrophile]

While I think the cost, particularly for out of state tuition, is far out of proportion to most starting salaries, I think the magazine overexaggerates the limited earning potential for veterinarians. While we are unlikely to see the kind of salaries physicians earn, veterinarians still make quite a bit more than the average person. So while I think the article is alarmist, it would be smart to take it as a cautionary tale when considering whether or not to go out of state or borrow much more than needed.

I don't think it's alarmist at all. It's realistic and it scares the hell out of me. Not gonna lie. There is not a single profession, not one, that goes through as many years of education as we do and has such a low average income. 60-70K for 8+years of school. The only thing that's even close is maybe lawyers, as some lawyers make only 30-40K a year. But that's kind of their choice to a degree. There are some lawyers out there making several million dollars a year. Do you know of any vets making several million? Or even several hundred thousand? The top paid specialty is veterinary nutritionists at around 200K and they probably only average that high because most of them work for industry and there's very few of them. How are we even going to buy or buy into a practice when we've got a ball and chain of debt around our ankles following us around like a lost puppy?

Oh yeah. Banfield is just about as evil as Hill's.

 

[RazorDoc2010]

Do you know of any vets making several million? Or even several hundred thousand?

Yes to both. Although not common, I do know some so it's not really impossible... some of the clinicians back home made several hundred thousand (salary, not just clinic profit)

But yes, the debt is very scary...

 

[reefervet]

There are some lawyers out there making several million dollars a year. Do you know of any vets making several million? Or even several hundred thousand?

I guess you've never lived in Southern California 😎

 

[Electrophile]

I guess you've never lived in Southern California 😎

Yeah, but southern California is not like the rest of the States. You HAVE to make that much money to even be able to buy a house out there where the average basic house is like half a million dollars. I've been to San Diego (on our honeymoon) and southern California is like going to a different country.

One of the vets at the teaching hospital had a classmate from Colorado State who is now making 200K in SoCal just doing acupuncture appointments and that's it. 😱 She had no building and almost no overhead, just rotated around different clinics, and had one vet tech help her out. Smart!

Yes to both. Although not common, I do know some so it's not really impossible... some of the clinicians back home made several hundred thousand (salary, not just clinic profit)

Is several hundred thousand like 150K or like 450K? There's a bit of a difference and I've never known any vets personally that make anywhere close to the latter. Still, 150K in Arkansas is pretty good!

 

[RazorDoc2010]

Is several hundred thousand like 150K or like 450K? There's a bit of a difference and I've never known any vets personally that make anywhere close to the latter. Still, 150K in Arkansas is pretty good!

Like probably 250k if not much more than that. And yes, that is very nice in cheap ole Arkansas!

 

[Electrophile]

Did they own like half the state? Just kidding. 😀

Nah, that's cool they shared that info with you as I'm sure a lot would be hesitant to. I am really enjoying learning the business side of practice stuff. Can't wait to own my own!

 

[chris03333]

I will probably owe around 200,000...Is the debt that bad?

yes it is that bad.😡 I think it is worth it though (ask me this again after I have been paying for a few more years😎)

 

[chris03333]

I guess you've never lived in Southern California 😎

I have lived in SoCal all my life (minus my residency) and nope don't know any veterinarians making millions. Tons of Specialists making hundreds of thousands (200-300K) but most general practitioners do not get more than 100K (unless they own a very profitable practice.)

SoCal is NOT the high $$$$ maker people make it out to be😉

 

[chris03333]

The top paid specialty is veterinary nutritionists at around 200K

Where in the world did you get that info from?
I would be willing to bet that established surgeons, pathologist, radiologists make just as much...


Is there a specific source that calls nutrition the highest paid specialty in vet med?😕

 

[Electrophile]

Yup, it was an article in a 2007 (maybe 2006?) DVM Magazine outlining what the average salaries for boarded specialties were. I read the hard copy version in the vet school library last fall, though I've been looking online for it and haven't found it. If I remember right (that being the keyword), boarded veterinary behaviorists make the least at around 90K-100K and boarded veterinary nutritionists make the most at around 200K. Boarded surgeons or internists made something like 130-150K, but I don't recall the exact numbers for those because I wasn't particularly interested in them for residencies. 🙂 Like I've said before, considering how few DACVNs there are and how deep the pockets of the 15 billion dollar pet food industry, that doesn't surprise me that they make a ton.

 

[reefervet]

I have lived in SoCal all my life (minus my residency) and nope don't know any veterinarians making millions. Tons of Specialists making hundreds of thousands (200-300K) but most general practitioners do not get more than 100K (unless they own a very profitable practice.)

SoCal is NOT the high $$$$ maker people make it out to be😉

Are you talking about first year graduates or established vets? I have lived in So Cal all my life too, but now I live in a small town. My observations are that location, as well as being a business owner can make a big difference. Anyways, for anyone interested in statistics this is what I pulled up:

2007 Graduating Class of UC Davis:

Avg. Base Salary + bonus for small animal: $72,749
Avg. Base Salary + bonus + benefits: $85,818 (males actually average over $100K starting - but there were only 14 LOL)

Keep in mind UC Davis is not So Cal, and not everyone stays in CA... but my personal experience with vets down there leads me to believe this is a pretty good representation

Oh and here's the full link:
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/placementservices/2007_Compensation.pdf

 

[Rac Umich]

Where in the world did you get that info from?
I would be willing to bet that established surgeons, pathologist, radiologists make just as much...


Is there a specific source that calls nutrition the highest paid specialty in vet med?😕

I'm surprised veterinarians specializing in laboratory animal medicine or oncology aren't near the top of the salary ladder. when i interviewed at ohio state they actually quizzed me about the income of a veterinary oncology in academia vs industry. i'm pretty sure the veterinary oncologist at wyeth, genetech, etc or the directors of lam programs aren't regretting the loans they probably paid off in less than 5 years.

 

[chris03333]

Are you talking about first year graduates or established vets? I have lived in So Cal all my life too, but now I live in a small town. My observations are that location, as well as being a business owner can make a big difference. Anyways, for anyone interested in statistics this is what I pulled up:

2007 Graduating Class of UC Davis:

Avg. Base Salary + bonus for small animal: $72,749
Avg. Base Salary + bonus + benefits: $85,818 (males actually average over $100K starting - but there were only 14 LOL)

Keep in mind UC Davis is not So Cal, and not everyone stays in CA... but my personal experience with vets down there leads me to believe this is a pretty good representation

Oh and here's the full link:
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/placementservices/2007_Compensation.pdf

those look similar to my graduating class at Western (2007) but they don't make MILLIONS....That's all I am saying (salary wise)

 

[aggiedonk]

Is anyone familiar with the salaries of veterinary toxicologists or veterinarians in conservation medicine? Besides researching this, I'd like to hear some real-life stories if anyone has any.

 

[Nexx]

Here's some stats from the AVMA regarding first year employment:

http://www.avma.org/reference/marketstats/1yremploy.asp

A friend of mine was receiving offers (about to graduate) from clinics in FL for $65k-$75k + production. Banfield (from their talks here) is offering $100k for new graduates in FL. They also do offer sign-on bonuses which includes $10k in your final year of school if you have performed some internships with them.

 

[alonepear]

Yup, it was an article in a 2007 (maybe 2006?) DVM Magazine outlining what the average salaries for boarded specialties were. I read the hard copy version in the vet school library last fall, though I've been looking online for it and haven't found it. If I remember right (that being the keyword), boarded veterinary behaviorists make the least at around 90K-100K and boarded veterinary nutritionists make the most at around 200K. Boarded surgeons or internists made something like 130-150K, but I don't recall the exact numbers for those because I wasn't particularly interested in them for residencies. 🙂 Like I've said before, considering how few DACVNs there are and how deep the pockets of the 15 billion dollar pet food industry, that doesn't surprise me that they make a ton.

I actually have the article! DVM News, Sept 2007:

Highest-paid specialists, average yearly income, source: AVMA
1. Nutrition - $202,368
2. Surgery - $183,092
3. Clinical Pharmacology - $159,027
4. Pathology - $154,047
5. Lab Animal Med - $153,013
6. Radiology - $152,995
7. Ophthalmology - $146,602
8. Poultry - $142,322
9. Internal Med - $141,791
10. Veterinary Practice - $135,500

It also states the average vet school graduate in 2006 owed $93,000 in educational debt. 32% of graduates in 2006 pursued specialties, double the amount from 10 years ago.

And "only behaviorists and those with zoological medicine board certifications earn less than DVM-only graduates at around $90,000 a year."

So much for wanting to do exotics 🙄

 

[winglessflight]

What do you guys think about salaries based on production (base salary + production)? It seems to me that it could lead a vet to push expensive procedures that they might not normally. How common is it for production to factor into overall salary?

 

[Electrophile]

I actually have the article! DVM News, Sept 2007:

Highest-paid specialists, average yearly income, source: AVMA
1. Nutrition - $202,368
2. Surgery - $183,092
3. Clinical Pharmacology - $159,027
4. Pathology - $154,047
5. Lab Animal Med - $153,013
6. Radiology - $152,995
7. Ophthalmology - $146,602
8. Poultry - $142,322
9. Internal Med - $141,791
10. Veterinary Practice - $135,500

It also states the average vet school graduate in 2006 owed $93,000 in educational debt. 32% of graduates in 2006 pursued specialties, double the amount from 10 years ago.

And "only behaviorists and those with zoological medicine board certifications earn less than DVM-only graduates at around $90,000 a year."

So much for wanting to do exotics 🙄

Oh cool! Glad you found it and to see I wasn't totally making numbers out of mid air (I was off on surgery, ah well). 😎 I was thinking about being a veterinary behaviorist (or maybe being double boarded in nutrition and behavior if I was feeling *really* ambitious), but I think I'll pass.

 

[chris03333]

I actually have the article! DVM News, Sept 2007:

Highest-paid specialists, average yearly income, source: AVMA
1. Nutrition - $202,368
2. Surgery - $183,092
3. Clinical Pharmacology - $159,027
4. Pathology - $154,047
5. Lab Animal Med - $153,013
6. Radiology - $152,995
7. Ophthalmology - $146,602
8. Poultry - $142,322
9. Internal Med - $141,791
10. Veterinary Practice - $135,500

It also states the average vet school graduate in 2006 owed $93,000 in educational debt. 32% of graduates in 2006 pursued specialties, double the amount from 10 years ago.

And "only behaviorists and those with zoological medicine board certifications earn less than DVM-only graduates at around $90,000 a year."

So much for wanting to do exotics 🙄

Thanks for posting👍