After you match somewhere, can you ask a different program if they ranked you?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Odaleyguey11

Odaleyguey11

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
Messages
26
Reaction score
4
Members don't see this ad.
Hi. I was wondering if AFTER you matched, has anyone ever asked a different program if they ranked them? I had two programs that were my # 1 and 2. Right up to the last week I was battling with which should go first. ASSUMING I match at #1, no guarantee obviously, do you think I could ask #2 if they even ranked me?

It's honestly just for personal edification. It has no practical value except if they say "no". I'd be able to let go of the last shreds of lingering regret. I feel I made the right choice but I'd still like to know if I even had a chance. Think it'd be possible? Any repercussions?

Thanks again!
 
I have definitely heard of candidates who went unmatched or ended up lower on their list, contacting the programs that passed on them and asking for feedback. I haven't heard of what you describe, but I'm not a PD.

To be clear, you'd basically be saying "I ended up at a program I liked better, but just wanted check in to see if you poor bastards tried to snag me too." At best you'll be ignored- programs are extremely busy post-Match preparing for the new class. At worst you'll come across as seeking an ego stroke, and may be remembered later on for the wrong reasons. I suggest finding a different way to accept the choice you made.
 
Sometimes they solicit you though. After I matched I received a few emails from programs asking for feedback about why I did not pick them as #1. The ones that were surveys I was happy to answer, but the ones that wanted me to email back I chose to not answer.

Good luck!
 
PrettyLadyDoc24 said:
Sometimes they solicit you though. After I matched I received a few emails from programs asking for feedback about why I did not pick them as #1. The ones that were surveys I was happy to answer, but the ones that wanted me to email back I chose to not answer.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

I see that request as more acceptable. The applicant's choice is primary, so that if you get into your first choice seat, even if you weren't a high rank for them, that still beats out every other program, even if they ranked you as their #1. So, they want to know what they could have done better to have been your first choice. They are looking for feedback to help them provide a better experience for future applicants, or to generally improve their program.

I don't think there is anything wrong with asking your 1st or 2nd or 3rd choices why they didn't rank you, when you got into your 4th ranked spot. That is information that could help you learn and grow. Going to your second choice and asking if they ranked you is like calling someone whose party you ditched for another to ask whether they thought you would have had a good time if you would have gone. It isn't about gathering information for quality improvement. It is pure ego service (which OP admits.)

Now, ego service is all well and good, and we all indulge in it a little from time to time... but wasting thought on how you fared with a site that you ranked lower than the one that took you carries a subtle hint of not being completely jazzed about your 1st choice. Residency has some elements of marriage. You are somewhat bound to the one you have, so you get the best results if you put everything into it and don't sniff around after might-have-beens.

I don't know what is up with all the relationship analogies today. Other than that I'm doing anything possible to procrastinate diving back into these neuroanatomy notes.
 
Odaleyguey11 said:
Hi. I was wondering if AFTER you matched, has anyone ever asked a different program if they ranked them? I had two programs that were my # 1 and 2. Right up to the last week I was battling with which should go first. ASSUMING I match at #1, no guarantee obviously, do you think I could ask #2 if they even ranked me?

It's honestly just for personal edification. It has no practical value except if they say "no". I'd be able to let go of the last shreds of lingering regret. I feel I made the right choice but I'd still like to know if I even had a chance. Think it'd be possible? Any repercussions?

Thanks again!
Click to expand...
Why would you even care? On an unrelated note, are you seriously doubting that your second choice school is going to rank you at all?

And this has nothing to do with "making the right choice". If you had switched the rankings, and the other school didn't rank you (or didn't rank you to match, which is what I assume you're getting at), you would still have ended up at your first choice school. That's just how the match works. The only reason to have ranked your second choice school number one would have been if it was actually your number 1 choice, not if you thought they may have ranked you highly.
 
Hangry said:
Why would you even care? On an unrelated note, are you seriously doubting that your second choice school is going to rank you at all?

And this has nothing to do with "making the right choice". If you had switched the rankings, and the other school didn't rank you (or didn't rank you to match, which is what I assume you're getting at), you would still have ended up at your first choice school. That's just how the match works. The only reason to have ranked your second choice school number one would have been if it was actually your number 1 choice, not if you thought they may have ranked you highly.
Click to expand...

Truth.

I think a lot of people don't *really* get how the match works. How high or low you were in rank doesn't really matter if you get the seat when the dust settles.

And to not rank someone at all, the program would have to basically feel that it would be better to end up with a seat unmatched. That is, one that they would risk having to fill through a post-match acceptance of someone they may not have even interviewed, in order to avoid giving it to the person that they chose not to rank.

That does happen, but it seems to require doing something absurdly inappropriate during the interview, like making sexually suggestive comments regarding the attire of one of the program's faculty. Seriously, saw that actually go down in real life. The consensus was that it would be better if they couldn't find a resident at all rather than to take that one. Otherwise, they rank everyone.

So, unless you made a terrible impression, OP, yes, they ranked you.
 
Thanks guys. The reason for the question was that the #2 program is actually much more well known and very highly ranked. It's an old program in California with a true full-spectrum "cowboy" FM curriculum. They have no shortage of excellent applicants. For better or worse I simply could not get over the location (southern Cali). Even though I went to undergrad there and used to love it when I was younger, I've changed and knew I'd rather live (for Residency and permanently) away from cities and urban areas.
My irrational, neurotic fear is that I may have taken a hit on intensity of training though. Even though my #1 is a great unnoposed program with all the opportunities to learn what I'm interested in (inpt/outpt and ER-trauma) I still feel like the Cali program had more "built into" the curriculum.

Yes this is stupid. Feel free to berate away. I'd just like closure. To make a banal analogy: It's not like I'm dumping some shlumpy date for a prettier girl. It's more like going with the less glamorous girl who I felt is a better total fit for for me than the ultra babe who didn't "feel right" but is really hot so you suck it up. Yes ego is involved. Maybe so was some insecurity but in the end I listened to my gut. I'd just like some closure one way or another when the ball drops. Unanswered questions are irritating.
 
Odaleyguey11 said:
Yes this is stupid. Feel free to berate away. I'd just like closure. To make a banal analogy: It's not like I'm dumping some shlumpy date for a prettier girl. It's more like going with the less glamorous girl who I felt is a better total fit for for me than the ultra babe who didn't "feel right" but is really hot so you suck it up. Yes ego is involved. Maybe so was some insecurity but in the end I listened to my gut. I'd just like some closure one way or another when the ball drops. Unanswered questions are irritating.
Click to expand...

Closure comes when you open your envelope. Hundreds of people choose fit/location over "brand name" programs literally every year. Frankly, you're not special. If your ego doesn't allow you to simply move on with residency, you could always just spend the rest of your career telling everyone about how you ranked "shlumpy" program over "ultra hot" program. You can do that without contacting a program that will likely have moved on from you the moment you didn't appear on their march list.
 
PrettyLadyDoc24 said:
Sometimes they solicit you though. After I matched I received a few emails from programs asking for feedback about why I did not pick them as #1. The ones that were surveys I was happy to answer, but the ones that wanted me to email back I chose to not answer.

Good luck!
Click to expand...
A program trying to see what they presented poorly or well is important because they will be going through the match process again every year. They have a reason to request feedback on how applicants viewed/ranked them. An individual wanting to see how their #2 program ranked them after they matched at their first choice is just for an ego boost.
 
Donald Juan said:
A program trying to see what they presented poorly or well is important because they will be going through the match process again every year. They have a reason to request feedback on how applicants viewed/ranked them. An individual wanting to see how their #2 program ranked them after they matched at their first choice is just for an ego boost.
Click to expand...
Exactly. They stopped caring about you when their match list, without you on it, was emailed out.
Their seeking feedback is about them trying to improve their program, their image, etc., not boost the PDs ego, because as I noted above, they stopped caring about you the instant you matched somewhere else. Even if you were their #1 choice, #2 should do just fine.


--
Il Destriero
 
Odaleyguey11 said:
My irrational, neurotic fear is that I may have taken a hit on intensity of training though. Even though my #1 is a great unnoposed program with all the opportunities to learn what I'm interested in (inpt/outpt and ER-trauma) I still feel like the Cali program had more "built into" the curriculum.
Click to expand...

Once minimum standards have been met, the quality of your education during your residency has as much to do with you as with the program. You can get out of the experience what you are willing to put into it. If you want higher intensity, look for opportunities to do a little bit more and be a little more useful. Not having it all built in does put the responsibility on you to seek out your interests... but on the other hand, it also gives you a bit more flexibility.

It sounds like you chose your #1 for all the right reasons. Where ever you land, here's hoping that you embrace it and make the very best of it without any lingering "what ifs."
 
Odaleyguey11 said:
Hi. I was wondering if AFTER you matched, has anyone ever asked a different program if they ranked them? I had two programs that were my # 1 and 2. Right up to the last week I was battling with which should go first. ASSUMING I match at #1, no guarantee obviously, do you think I could ask #2 if they even ranked me?

It's honestly just for personal edification. It has no practical value except if they say "no". I'd be able to let go of the last shreds of lingering regret. I feel I made the right choice but I'd still like to know if I even had a chance. Think it'd be possible? Any repercussions?

Thanks again!
Click to expand...

You can, sure, nothing to lose, but you're wasting your time. It's pretty much a rule that programs will not disclose criteria for ranking poorly or not ranking with candidates. Typically the question is aimed towards HR: Can I ask HR why I didn't get the job and what I can do in the future to improve my chances? Most HR departments have strict rules about not responding to these requests because doing so opens them up to liability. This type of thinking carries forward to residency selection. A residency committee has nothing to gain and everything to lose by candidly saying that you were not ranked because you were much older than your peers and came from a lower ranked medical school. The absolute best you could hope for is "this was a very competitive year and we could not offer everyone a spot," which says nothing and is worthless.
 
atomi said:
Completely false.
Click to expand...

"Almost" - Essentially a large majority of those who interview get ranked. This is straight from the mouth of a couple of PDs. Though will probably be different program to program. But some programs do feel if you're not completely weird at the interview, and your application was good enough that they sent you an interview, then you'll most likely be ranked somewhere, not necessarily ranked to match though.
 
Last edited:
PrettyLadyDoc24 said:
Sometimes they solicit you though. After I matched I received a few emails from programs asking for feedback about why I did not pick them as #1. The ones that were surveys I was happy to answer, but the ones that wanted me to email back I chose to not answer.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

I had a program that I ranked higher than the program I match at send me a survey for feedback after match day. Many of their questions were along the lines of 'what could we have done that would've made you rank us higher?' I was in a really bad mood when I filled out the survey, so I think I wrote a slightly more tactful version of 'I did rank you higher, ********. Now you're just rubbing salt in the wound because I didn't match there'.

The programs I got that e-mail from that were further down the list I was happy to respond to. Even better were the ones that got anonymous feedback at the end of the interview day, since I could actually remember what I liked and what I didn't like about the program.
 
cyanide12345678 said:
"Almost" - Essentially a large majority of those who interview get ranked. This is straight from the mouth of a couple of PDs. Though will probably be different program to program. But some programs do feel if you're not completely weird at the interview, and your application was good enough that they sent you an interview, then you'll most likely be ranked somewhere, not necessarily ranked to match though.
Click to expand...

It must not have been a very competitive program then. For anything even mildly competitive, there will be a handful who are not ranked for reasons other than gross social incompetence. As the program becomes more competitive, there will be an increasing spread between the number of interview invitations and the size of the ranklist. Being average isn't good enough to get you ranked. The fallacy is that everybody is on equal footing after they get the interview invite. They are not. If you barely managed to get an interview to a derm program with a 230 step 1 and mediocre grades and you perform average at the interview, you probably won't get ranked, whereas the person with the 270/270 and AOA who performs exactly the same at the interview will get ranked, probably highly.
 
cyanide12345678 said:
"Almost" - Essentially a large majority of those who interview get ranked. This is straight from the mouth of a couple of PDs.
Click to expand...
atomi said:
It must not have been a very competitive program then. For anything even mildly competitive, there will be a handful who are not ranked for reasons other than gross social incompetence. As the program becomes more competitive, there will be an increasing spread between the number of interview invitations and the size of the ranklist. Being average isn't good enough to get you ranked. The fallacy is that everybody is on equal footing after they get the interview invite. They are not. If you barely managed to get an interview to a derm program with a 230 step 1 and mediocre grades and you perform average at the interview, you probably won't get ranked, whereas the person with the 270/270 and AOA who performs exactly the same at the interview will get ranked, probably highly.
Click to expand...

Programs like derm are obviously going to be extremely competitive. I applied to EM, which is moderately competitive, but not cut throat like Derm. An average program in EM this cycle received between 900- 1500 applications this year for 10-15 spots. They end up interviewing around 10 people for each available position. So 100 people for 10 spots get interviewed. They likely have to send out 150-200 interview invites for getting 100 people to show up for an interview. The point I'm making is that the biggest cut is in sending out interviews. When a program picks 150-200 people out of a pool of 1000 people, they've already filtered for most factors that go into their ranking process. The interview mostly is to see that the person isn't straight up weird. My home EM program, which is supposedly one of the best in Texas, the PD herself said that the match is completely random and at times they'd fill with the top 1/3rd of their list, but there will be times when they will go all the way down to their bottom 1/3rd. I guess my only point is that the biggest cut is usually getting an interview. Only 10-20% of people applying get the invite, most of those have characteristics on their application that qualify them for ranking, even if they are just average on the interview, they will most likely get ranked, but perhaps not "ranked to match".
 
cyanide12345678 said:
Programs like derm are obviously going to be extremely competitive. I applied to EM, which is moderately competitive, but not cut throat like Derm. An average program in EM this cycle received between 900- 1500 applications this year for 10-15 spots. They end up interviewing around 10 people for each available position. So 100 people for 10 spots get interviewed. They likely have to send out 150-200 interview invites for getting 100 people to show up for an interview. The point I'm making is that the biggest cut is in sending out interviews. When a program picks 150-200 people out of a pool of 1000 people, they've already filtered for most factors that go into their ranking process. The interview mostly is to see that the person isn't straight up weird. My home EM program, which is supposedly one of the best in Texas, the PD herself said that the match is completely random and at times they'd fill with the top 1/3rd of their list, but there will be times when they will go all the way down to their bottom 1/3rd. I guess my only point is that the biggest cut is usually getting an interview. Only 10-20% of people applying get the invite, most of those have characteristics on their application that qualify them for ranking, even if they are just average on the interview, they will most likely get ranked, but perhaps not "ranked to match".
Click to expand...

I had no idea EM programs received around that many applicants. That's pretty depressing..
 
Rekt said:
I had no idea EM programs received around that many applicants. That's pretty depressing..
Click to expand...

Every rejection email I got had them telling me that the program received 1000+ applications lol. There are about 2500 total applicants this year applying to 170 programs. The average number of programs applied to now almost sits at 50 by each applicant. If you look at NRMP match data from 2015, a total of 22810 positions were ranked by these 170 programs. Hence, that's an average of 134 ranks per program. The average EM program is essentially around 13-14 in size. So essentially on average for each position 10 people were ranked, which also happens to be around how many people are interviewed for each position. Hence, unless you're weird at the interview, you should get ranked somewhere in EM. Because most programs have already thought you were better than 800 or so other applicants and that you were worthy of an interview. All these numbers come from the NRMP match data from 2015. Hence, if you interview, you most likely rank, depending on your specialty.
 
mvenus929 said:
I had a program that I ranked higher than the program I match at send me a survey for feedback after match day. Many of their questions were along the lines of 'what could we have done that would've made you rank us higher?' I was in a really bad mood when I filled out the survey, so I think I wrote a slightly more tactful version of 'I did rank you higher, ********. Now you're just rubbing salt in the wound because I didn't match there'.

The programs I got that e-mail from that were further down the list I was happy to respond to. Even better were the ones that got anonymous feedback at the end of the interview day, since I could actually remember what I liked and what I didn't like about the program.
Click to expand...

The ones with anonymous feedback I was happy to reply to. I think that's a good move on their part to solicit but not shame or blame you.

I'm sincerely sorry someone asked you why you didn't rank them higher when you did, that's awful 🙁
 
Odaleyguey11 said:
Thanks guys. The reason for the question was that the #2 program is actually much more well known and very highly ranked. It's an old program in California with a true full-spectrum "cowboy" FM curriculum. They have no shortage of excellent applicants. For better or worse I simply could not get over the location (southern Cali). Even though I went to undergrad there and used to love it when I was younger, I've changed and knew I'd rather live (for Residency and permanently) away from cities and urban areas.
My irrational, neurotic fear is that I may have taken a hit on intensity of training though. Even though my #1 is a great unnoposed program with all the opportunities to learn what I'm interested in (inpt/outpt and ER-trauma) I still feel like the Cali program had more "built into" the curriculum.

Yes this is stupid. Feel free to berate away. I'd just like closure. To make a banal analogy: It's not like I'm dumping some shlumpy date for a prettier girl. It's more like going with the less glamorous girl who I felt is a better total fit for for me than the ultra babe who didn't "feel right" but is really hot so you suck it up. Yes ego is involved. Maybe so was some insecurity but in the end I listened to my gut. I'd just like some closure one way or another when the ball drops. Unanswered questions are irritating.
Click to expand...

I ranked an unopposed community program over a "big name" prestigious program. #1 and #2. It was a tough decision, and I seriously thought about flipping a coin, because both programs were good. But I ended up going with my gut. I don't regret it at all, and I wouldn't disrespect the other place by asking them how they ranked me. If they ranked you highly, then they know you ranked someone higher. So it's really just a slap in the face to them. Never burn bridges.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

A
Can you help me rank these radiology programs please?
Replies
7
Views
2K
Ho0v-man
Ho0v-man
narrator
Is it possible to match / be ranked by a program without an interview
Replies
13
Views
2K
narrator
narrator
S
MD & DO How can I transfer to a different school?
Replies
3
Views
701
Goro
Goro
V
Can you get subspecialty letters for residency applications
Replies
1
Views
677
SurfingDoctor
SurfingDoctor
MonsterGod
  • Question Question
Did you guys have to pay to publish a case report?
Replies
3
Views
650
Goro
Goro
Top