against overseas school?

[oldpro]

Dude, that's uncalled for and sort of offensive.

What many people were saying is that age, race, and gender don't work against you nearly as much as you seem to think. One cannot use that as an "excuse" for not getting into (or trying to get into) a US school. Bad grades, sure. Want to be done faster, sure. But don't suggest that you automatically had to go to the Caribbean because of your age, sex, and skin colour, because that's simply incorrect. Many people that look like you get into US schools. If you are borderline on your stats, might it then factor in? Maybe. But if you have a really solid application, you will not be refused.

From what I understand, you chose not to apply in the US because you thought it would take too long to qualify. That's a legitimate choice and more power to you. And there are many valid criticisms about how US schools admit people - focusing too much on numbers, etc... but people's chances are based mainly on their abilities and their efforts. And US schools are not that hard to get into, compared to other countries.

It's good that you seem open to helping the OP understand the challenges Caribbean students face, and not wanting to gloss over the rough stuff. We know so little about her situation (home, work, family) and her priorities, that it's hard to give advice.

In the pre ALLO Forum it was posted under ask the ADCOM, they gave points for underserved minority I read it last night, I do not mean to offend but the world is not a fair place all the time please, I did not make this up read it for your self....................

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[oldpro]

njbmd :

I feel the need to say this , I have read your posts for about 3 years and we do not agree on the Caribbean, so be it. But I know you were qualified, Highly for medschool and had accomplished a lot, IMO Underserved had nothing to do with it.


I do think you are intelligent and I think you are a role model to others,

I do not think Caribbean will ever be first choice over the MD in the US and as long as people are comfortable with DO then DO .

I will coninue to post that over 50% FMG do make it and do well, there is a risk and that does need to be understood.

I agree though anyone going to the caribbean should realize that primary care may be the best option, few get to be surgeons from the Caribbean and that is reality.


Good Luck.

 

[trustwomen]

In the pre ALLO Forum it was posted under ask the ADCOM, they gave points for underserved minority I read it last night, I do not mean to offend but the world is not a fair place all the time please, I did not make this up read it for your self....................

First, I'm glad to see that when you wrote "undeserved" in the post I replied to the first time, it was just a misspelling of "underserved". I'm glad it was spelled correctly this time, so that I could realize your intent - talk about a meaning shift!

Second, I have no doubt that you get a few extra points for these kinds of things. However, unless you are a borderline applicant, I doubt they will make the difference between accepted and rejected. I am fairly confident that most minority students in med school were NOT borderline and were not pushed over the edge by these extra few points. It's wrong to assume that because someone happens to be a minority, that they were borderline on numbers. Odds are they would have gotten in no matter what they looked like. Similarly, students with solid applications (numbers, ECs, PS) will not be rejected because of the lack of these few points. It is only the borderline students who are at risk of this. Anyone with the ability can make themselves a solid applicant with a few years of sustained effort, and what they look like will not matter. That is what I am trying to say. Will there be some students (of all races) who are borderline applicants and get in anyway? Yes. The world needs more than just dermatologists, so that's fine. (The US also needs foreign grads to fill its residency slots, for that matter.) I don't think most people need to worry about those few extra points, and I don't think it is a defining adjustment except for very few people. I don't feel especially strongly about a borderline white applicant not getting in (and I'm white). One can always improve one's application with a bit of effort.

Anyway, that wasn't the point of this thread and I'd hate to see it hijacked.

Again, I'm glad that you are not sugarcoating the caribbean for the OP.

 

[Law2Doc]

In the pre ALLO Forum it was posted under ask the ADCOM, they gave points for underserved minority I read it last night, I do not mean to offend but the world is not a fair place all the time please, I did not make this up read it for your self....................

While some degree of affirmative action likely exists for minority applicants, that does not detract from the prior posters suggestions that many many nontrad white males get admitted to US medical schools. So your suggestion that folks have to go to the caribbean due to being older white males is simply absurd. People go to the caribbean because their academic credentials, MCAT scores etc are lacking, not their pigment or estrogen levels.

 

[oldpro]

If I misspelled I'm really sorry I did mean underserved I'll fix it if I did

this is the ADCOM post I'm talking about and yes it offends me to but it seems to be reality?

in my committee, we assign points for greater-than-expected and lesser-than-expected performance in the following areas. The numbers in curly brackets roughly represent the relative weight. Negative points can be given:
1) Personal qualities as mentioned in our school's mission statement as evidenced by PS, interview(s), LORs. {1-2}
2) Diversity including socioeconomic, ethnic, cultural, age, bootstraps, previous careers, additional languages, etc. {1}
3) Clinical experience plus community/volunteer experience. {1}
4) Research and job experience, publications. {1}
5) Academic performance as suggested by grades, upward trend, including grad school if applicable. {1}
6) MCAT performance. We take best mix-and-match attempt. {1}
7) Reapplicant changes, overall impression and red flags. {1}

You have to accumulate perhaps 4 or more of these points to be ranked in the range commonly offered acceptance. It's more complex than that, but I hope that gives you an idea. There are cutoffs for MCAT and GPA to get a secondary and interview, but they're pretty low for in-state. As for 6,000 applicants, that's a little high for my school, but we do indeed work our rear ends off.

I wish this was made up , but they do say 4 out of the list. By the way it does not say older or younger for age, over 40 a plus? I would be surprised.

 

[billydoc]

I think ppl on SDN sure like to speak in absolutes. Sure it's always nice to go to school in U.S. But....I have to come to oldpro's defense here, not the he needs it....poor guy is holding the Fort all by himself. Nobody (I hope) in their right mind will go to Carib if they don't have to. But, you don't get 9 lives, unless you are a cat . Oldpro told you guys, that he knows what he wants to do, that's being rural FP, which BTW many folks who are so damn "competative" will never consider. You all know that the uderserved areas are hurting real bad for both primary care and specialties. For some reason on SDN "competative" to many means least amount of work, for the max amount of pay. I'm not psychologically opposed to it, but that's not neccerily what defines being "competative", and I'n sure it's not for Oldpro either. Actually me and him have a few things in common. We are both white males, and we are both RNs who have been practicing for almost two decades before finally persuing medicine. Let's just say that we know a thing or two about "real World" and "helping people" as well. So if the guy knows that FP is attainable,he knows he is not gonna get problems in his home State with permanent licensure....I ask you ....Why not? B/C everybody here is asking Why? Wouldn't you say that the "real World being served better if one more qualified doc takes on that responsibility? He told you that he is 43. So, he took the most progmatic approach and he'll be done in 7 years instead of 10 or 11. Not everybody is at will to make such huge investment of their lives. Also the school that he goes to is priced right for IMG , IMHO. I say if you are realistic in your expectations then just go for it.

 

[oldpro]

One last thought I work hard and have all my life, I have had to live with a lot of Bias for the 18 years as a male RN, it was rough at times, passed over for promotions and down right Illegal treatment due to my Sex. I have a wife and a Family at first they think its great but after awhile I got bad assignments and few accolades for my success. I had successes at work as a Nurse but it was a fight and I got tired of it.

Now I'm becoming a Doctor and I decided this way to do it, I have to read things like "Most are not successful" when I know that is not true, at least not most, if the number is even as low as 50% I still think for the right situation and person this is ok, it's ok to go the Caribbean. Know the risks and that you will have to work hard all the time but it's possible to do well.

Now I'm not saying this is the best way for all, the only way, of course if you can go to a US school, but why do I have to post this all the time so I'm not shot down? I've been posting on this board for sometime and how many posts do I tell someone to go to the Caribbean? I post on several other forums and tell few to go to the Caribbean post after post I tell people it is better to go to a US school.

FOr me I think after my hard work and when I pass the 2 USMLE get a residency then pass step 3 will some of you finally give me credit, that this can work?

Thanks

 

[spicedmanna]

Hey, Oldpro, I respect you a lot. I've read many of your posts since I joined, and I love your thoughts. I don't think any of the above posters think less of you, or that you somehow couldn't succeed, because you are attending a Caribbean medical school. That would be ludicrous at best. I think you are nothing short of amazing. Keep up the good work, and I fully expect you to represent.

That said, I think there might have been some crossed wires here. I skimmed a great many of the posts on this thread, and I find myself wondering where the problem is. What I mean is, most of the people I have come to love here are on the same page about the Caribbean. The consensus seems to be that it is not the situation of preference, but if your individual condition requires you to choose the Caribbean to become a doctor, then you can succeed with the appropriate effort and will. It will be a more difficult road, wrought with additional challenges not present if one were a student in a US school, but this does not mean you cannot succeed. It does mean you will need to understand the risks involved, possibly work harder, and be realistic. That's the main idea: one needs to be realistic and informed. It will be less painful if a person considering this option understands that this is an inherently riskier bet than attending a school in the US. But if you do everything you can and work hard and smartly, you can create opportunity and success. No need to view the world through rose-colored glasses, nor the dark shades of winter. It is what it is and no matter where you attend school, ultimately it is up to YOU.

 

[notdeadyet]

The consensus seems to be that it is not the situation of preference, but if your individual condition requires you to choose the Caribbean to become a doctor, then you can succeed with the appropriate effort and will. It will be a more difficult road, wrought with additional challenges not present if one were a student in a US school, but this does not mean you cannot succeed. It does mean you will need to understand the risks involved, possibly work harder, and be realistic.

Word.

 

[Law2Doc]

Hey, Oldpro, I respect you a lot. I've read many of your posts since I joined, and I love your thoughts. I don't think any of the above posters think less of you, or that you somehow couldn't succeed, because you are attending a Caribbean medical school. That would be ludicrous at best. I think you are nothing short of amazing. Keep up the good work, and I fully expect you to represent.

That said, I think there might have been some crossed wires here. I skimmed a great many of the posts on this thread, and I find myself wondering where the problem is. What I mean is, most of the people I have come to love here are on the same page about the Caribbean. The consensus seems to be that it is not the situation of preference, but if your individual condition requires you to choose the Caribbean to become a doctor, then you can succeed with the appropriate effort and will. It will be a more difficult road, wrought with additional challenges not present if one were a student in a US school, but this does not mean you cannot succeed. It does mean you will need to understand the risks involved, possibly work harder, and be realistic. That's the main idea: one needs to be realistic and informed. It will be less painful if a person considering this option understands that this is an inherently riskier bet than attending a school in the US. But if you do everything you can and work hard and smartly, you can create opportunity and success. No need to view the world through rose-colored glasses, nor the dark shades of winter. It is what it is and no matter where you attend school, ultimately it is up to YOU.

I agree with your post and think lots of people were sort of on this same page until it was suggested that the caribbean was the path of necessity for nontrad white males.

 

[notdeadyet]

I agree with your post and think lots of people were sort of on this same page until it was suggested that the caribbean was the path of necessity for nontrad white males.

Word^2

 

[oldpro]

Thank All of you if I have misunderstood anyone, then I'm sorry, it is really hard to do what I have done and there are others at my school I know will prevail also.

I really do understand and agree with even the people I disagree with one some other issues, It's hard at times to get a point across on posts we all make.

I will not give up on SDN I have at times been really discouraged and I think Medschool is so hard its easy to get down and just be too negative.


To Q and njbmd I really do respect you and in respect I at times disagree but thats normal I would think.

 

[QofQuimica]

Thank All of you if I have misunderstood anyone, then I'm sorry, it is really hard to do what I have done and there are others at my school I know will prevail also.

I really do understand and agree with even the people I disagree with one some other issues, It's hard at times to get a point across on posts we all make.

I will not give up on SDN I have at times been really discouraged and I think Medschool is so hard its easy to get down and just be too negative.


To Q and njbmd I really do respect you and in respect I at times disagree but thats normal I would think.

Like I said before, I don't have any beef with you. I think you're fighting several straw men here. Again, *no one* is saying that all or even most Caribbean students won't make it. (I fully admit that I don't know the exact percentage of Caribbean grads who wind up as licensed US physicians, but to be fair, I don't think that you know, either. ) The OP asked why people were opposed to attending Caribbean schools. I think we all expressed more or less identical concerns in slightly different ways, including you. It *is* really hard to do what you've done. That's the point the rest of us have been trying to make all along!

As I said before, I hope you do well in school and succeed. I am sure since you work hard, you will.

 

[Old_Mil]

There are overseas schools, and there are overseas schools. If you decide to go that route, it really will pay to do some research into the institution and see how long they've been around and so on. Ross and St. George's U are two of the more reputable ones (there may be others as well). I think if I had to do it over again, that's the route that I would have gone.

 

[sumozmom]

"I think if I had to do it over again, that's the route that I would have gone."
...why.....what route did u take?

 

[sexyman]

From St. George website

"Our attrition rate in the first two years is generally 1-2% for
personal reasons and 3-5% for academic reasons. Approximately 10% of
students transfer to U.S. medical schools, generally after the second
year of study. The attrition rate in the final two years is almost
negligible."

St. George also has an 8 year average pass rate of 90% for first time usmle step one takers.

While the average pass rate for all non-US schools is around 65%.

All off shore schools are not created equal.

So to keep saying "some" students from St. Georges make it is much less accurate than "most" students from St. Georges make it.

 

[Shinken]

To those considering the Caribbean route, when you look at the overall match numbers posted by the NRMP, be aware that those statistics apply to ALL FMG/IMGs, including those from reputable Medical Schools in other countries. The NRMP numbers are not just Caribbean but Worldwide. Just food for thought. Carry on.

 

[1Path]

I agree with your post and think lots of people were sort of on this same page until it was suggested that the caribbean was the path of necessity for nontrad white males.

I think the comment about oldpro's CHOICES being a "copout" was out of line as well and no real benefit to anyone considering the Caribbean. His decision was HIS choice for HIS life. Period.

Oldpro, I can certainly appreciate your decision to attend med school at a place and time that was best for YOU and YOUR family. Best of luck in school and beyond!

 

[polymer]

I have started to wonder about Carribean schools as well. people here are correct when they say that a lot of "evidence" about success from these schools is anecdotal. But there are numbers to back up some of the success stories as well. I look at it like this. Obviously a Carribean school is a last resort for me, but if comes down to being the only resort for me, I would rather take my chances to become a doctor than do anything else in the world. I know I would be one of the success stories cause I know I would one of the ones that work my a** off both in school and for studying for the USMLE. My not getting accepted to a US school would have nothing to do with my brains or capability to be a great physician, it would be my undergraduate GPA that I earned when I was 20 years old that would keep meout. But the fact that I am willing to "pay" for my mistakes, literally pay, by having to go to a Carribean school to realize my dream I think shows the dedication I have, and the sacrifices I am willing to make.

Nicely said. I'm in the same boat. Stupid youth and paying for it now.

Here are my 2 cents. I think it comes down to the person. If they are willing to put it all on the line, they will make it. By that i mean not partying at school, treating it like undergrad (partying, not being serious) or thinking that they will graduate with a half ass effort. I think these are the people that cant pass step 1 or if they do, they do lousy on step 2. What do you expect? Of course you're going to go home empty handed.

I think anyone with dirve and persistance will make it through. And not just med school. Anywere. Invensment banking, IT, law, engeneering even janitorial service ( guy i know started started cleaning offices and now runs his own company).

Yeah, so you gotta go Carrib. But it's a shot and you're last. Since you're non-trad I assume you are older. You will know what you have to give up from your present life. Also, hopefully you have a good support system to help you through. The ones who I know gave up everything (car, condo, fast track up the corperate ladder). They had average GPA's from 15 years back but had cut their teeth in the very harsh corperate world. BUT, they gave up everything, concentrated on the task at hand and now are residents back in the states.

Like me, they wanted to join the medical community. Not necceralily to be a highly paid surgeon, but to help humanity as best as they can.

I'm rambling so I'll stop now.

Go to the big 4 ( good track record) and be prepared to work hard and not get distracted.

Best of luck.

 

[bulletproof]

To the OP:

I have written so often on the doom and gloom attrition rates at the carib. schools that I am not going to get into it again here. Many, if not most of those who fail out of REPUTABLE ( read: SGU, ROSS, AUC, SABA ) carib. schools do so because of personal issues they brought with them to the islands such as sense of entitlement etc. My entering class in jan' 04 had a number of students who failed out simply because they did not try....truly. They were indian students who were there simply ( and they would openly tell you this ) because that is what their parents wanted. When they got sick of the charade they went home...period. Another girl left because her mom was diagnosed with ovarian ca. More can just not hack living on the islands, having never left the comfort of their state prior to embarking on the carib. med. school journey. These are not reflective of the quality of the education, or of the school failing them, as some of the posts in this thread might have you believe.


There are plenty of negatives about the carib. schools including dealing with bias come residency interview season, having to outscore your US colleagues on standardized exams to prove your worth, but your concerns about attrition should be negligible if you are certain that being a physician is something YOU want, and you are convinced that you do in fact have the maturity to be willing to focus on that goal to the virtual exclusion of all else. Carib. med is one part determination, one part psychological preparation, and three parts hard work.

BTW, although it may be anecdotal everyone in my immediate circle of friends beat the U.S mean of 217 on their step one, with two of my friends going on to transfer to U.S. schools, others who prematched to university based categorical IM programs, university based anesthesia programs, 2 friend who matched radiology this year etc. etc.

I agree with all those who say go to the U.S. school first...sure. IMHO it is not worth wasting anymore than one year trying to get in, unless you really really want to be the next Dr. 90210, or a dermatologist.

I finish in 4 weeks at the age of 28, with 90+ on both steps, CS passed, prematch offer at a categorical IM program ( which I declined, although I am currently trying to get a prelim. spot at the same program), taking a year off to travel, and anticipate matching in a competitive speciality. I will come back here and fill you all in if it does not happen.

I wish all of you the best in deciding what is best for you. Please do not go to the carib. unless you are certain of your ambition and your fortitude. You will need both. But, if you get through you can do very,very well.

If going to the carib. stick to the four schools listed above, do your research, study hard, and remember that the value of advice dished out on SDN is commensurate with the price you paid for it (mine included). Good Luck.

 

[1Path]

These are not reflective of the quality of the education, or of the school failing them, as some of the posts in this thread might have you believe..

Your post was an amazing testimony to your path!

As an aside, I've always found it amusing that statements posted by so called SDN gurus are always fact, while those posted by everyone else is "anecdotal".