AI and medicine

[DYK343]

Something new to talk about since we seem to discuss the same 10 topics over and over.

If you have been following over the last year AI is getting interesting. In the future I could see AI taking over for medical roles if it continues to improve. IBM has been working on a program (watson, I believe) that could take over for medical professions in the future. Im sure there are others out there.

Initially people will be against it due to knee jerk reaction. But times are always changing and It's quite possibly the future.

How many medical professionals will be needed if a computer, with infinite knowledge and immediate training, can diagnose and treat medical problems? Something to think about. We should add 2 more schools.

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[pod squad]

I just can't wait for the day when the AI doctor refuses to do routine care because it's below their level of training

 

[Adam Smasher]

I just can't wait for the day when the AI doctor refuses to do routine care because it's below their level of training

I was trying to come up with something witty along these lines to say but you beat me to it!!!

 

[de Ribas]

Something new to talk about since we seem to discuss the same 10 topics over and over.

If you have been following over the last year AI is getting interesting. In the future I could see AI taking over for medical roles if it continues to improve. IBM has been working on a program (watson, I believe) that could take over for medical professions in the future. Im sure there are others out there.

Initially people will be against it due to knee jerk reaction. But times are always changing and It's quite possibly the future.

How many medical professionals will be needed if a computer, with infinite knowledge and immediate training, can diagnose and treat medical problems? Something to think about. We should add 2 more schools.

This is possible probably for non surgical specialties and where diagnoses is not based on exam. How would AI do physical exam or surgery?

 

[619]

Most procedure based specialty are somewhat immune from AI. AI is never going to replace a dentist.
Not just medicine but any hands on profession (basically most blue collar jobs). AI is never in the future going to fix the leaking sink or burst pipe to displace plumbers.

 

[de Ribas]

At best AI will replace NPs and PAs. Things that are easy and can be diagnosed with little history. Prescription refills. Some follow ups. Anything more complicated AI will not do it.

 

[AttackNME]

I am just picturing Baymax in a white coat doing triage work in the ER

 

[heybrother]

What's sad is that we don't imagine a future where AI makes our lives better. That said, I think we're right to be cynical since we live in a country that jokingly spent a trillion dollars on EHR and got a fragmented network of overpriced garbage that is historically more focused on billing than on quality.

AI writing the note while you see the patient - awesome, but probably not even very imaginitive. Still focused on record keeping and billing.

 

[DYK343]

Robots largely replaced factory workers. Thats a hands on profession (in the past).
Robots, human guided, currently are doing surgery with precision.
Robots attached to AI could absolutely be a surgeon. Maybe not yet because AI is in its infancy. But its going to improve drastically.
Remember the first computer? It took up a whole room. Now we have them in our pockets and on our wrists. Weve now developed computers to essentially act and think like a human.

Having a computer chart for me while I see a patient and send the bill sounds amazing.

Why cant they develop a debrider that can cut nails? Put the foot in a box and out they come all clean and shiny. Its ridiculous. I agree.
But in 30 years a real possiblity.

 

[DYK343]

This is possible probably for non surgical specialties and where diagnoses is not based on exam. How would AI do physical exam or surgery?

Labs are a large part of medicine (less for DPM) and guide a lot of decisions.

Can detect heart sounds and auscultate lung sounds easy.

Camera lens attached to data base for derm rashes, etc. Compare and contrast amongst 1000s of images in its data base in a split second.

It could happen.... People are working on developing it now actually (see watson comments above).

 

[PeaJay]

Labs are a large part of medicine (less for DPM) and guide a lot of decisions.

Can detect heart sounds and auscultate lung sounds easy.

Camera lens attached to data base for derm rashes, etc. Compare and contrast amongst 1000s of images in its data base in a split second.

It could happen.... People are working on developing it now actually (see watson comments above).

AI could be great for things not involving patient questioning.

Auscultation + EKG + labs = order confirmatory test and then wham you have a diagnosis.

Podiatry is not going to be infiltrated by AI other than for optimization of protocols. My patients would complain of heel pain to the computer, point to the big toe, and say they have 10/10 burning/sharp/dull pain all at the same time. However the only thing that hurts is the raging PTTD.

 

[PeaJay]

Having a computer chart for me while I see a patient and send the bill sounds amazing.

The company that makes dragon has a system like this. They claim ortho can use it. Automatically populates subjective and plan based off discussion and completes most of the exam based off what it hears you say.

My hospital is hopefully getting it soon. I signed up to be first in line for this gravy train.

 

[de Ribas]

So let's say in 50 years AI and robots complete take over all manufacturing, production, groceries, etc. Also medicine, most other services, financial, office jobs, IT, etc. Then what will be the reason to live for many people. We already have many people with too much time on their hands doing nothing. Less jobs, less money, more psychosocial problems. When people have nothing to do often times they go crazy.

 

[Adam Smasher]

So let's say in 50 years AI and robots complete take over all manufacturing, production, groceries, etc. Also medicine, most other services, financial, office jobs, IT, etc. Then what will be the reason to live for many people. We already have many people with too much time on their hands doing nothing. Less jobs, less money, more psychosocial problems. When people have nothing to do often times they go crazy.

The late Walter Williams gave a great rebuttal to these concerns.

If AI replaces human labor, it will be the first time in history that technology led to a reduction in income, because historically, technological advances always made us more productive. Technological capabilities will always be finite but human desires are infinite, so there will always be something for us to do.

 

[dtrack22]

AI writing the note while you see the patient

This has existed for at least 4-5 years. I spoke with a company who would do that through an Apple Watch. Prohibitively expensive for a podiatry office. They also had to have some code that was individualized for the EHR so it wasn’t an option for some systems. It used your Apple watch to listen to the encounter and would document what was verbalized.

I welcome any and all advancements in AI. It will either cut down on BS referrals since the primary care doc can actually start treating routine foot problems correctly, and/or it will cut down on my daily documentation.

 

[Shiyuan]

This has existed for at least 4-5 years. I spoke with a company who would do that through an Apple Watch. Prohibitively expensive for a podiatry office. They also had to have some code that was individualized for the EHR so it wasn’t an option for some systems. It used your Apple watch to listen to the encounter and would document what was verbalized.

I welcome any and all advancements in AI. It will either cut down on BS referrals since the primary care doc can actually start treating routine foot problems correctly, and/or it will cut down on my daily documentation.

Referrals for “limb length discrepancy” especially... see your local orthotist/prosthetist please.

 

[DYK343]

So let's say in 50 years AI and robots complete take over all manufacturing, production, groceries, etc. Also medicine, most other services, financial, office jobs, IT, etc. Then what will be the reason to live for many people. We already have many people with too much time on their hands doing nothing. Less jobs, less money, more psychosocial problems. When people have nothing to do often times they go crazy.

Didnt amazon make some grocery stores without cashiers? Whatever you put in the bag/shopping cart got charged to your account then you walked out the door?

And be clear. Im not saying I cant wait for a robot/computer to take my job. But it could happen.

Thermoradiography could "palpate" pulses. Nerve conduction velocities (or something similar) instantly. MSK exam possibly instant MRI or whatever imaging is next in line. Its all possible with new technology.

 

[de Ribas]

There is so much more involved in patient care than just xrays and lab numbers and we all know that. There will be some use for AI and technology advancement. But a lot of patient care decisions are made based on many variables. It's patients preference, social, financial, home conditions, compliance of the patient, needs of the patient, ability for someone else to care for the patient while in recovery, etc. There are many subjective cues that providers go by to come up with the treatment plan. Often times pts are very poor historians and give contradicting information. In school we learn labs, imaging, Hx, PE, but in the field often times patient treatment is beyond that. AI will probably overprescribe if going only by numbers and imaging. Medical training would so much faster if it would be only labs, imaging, Hx and PE. That's why residency takes so long because there is so much more to balance to provide best tailored patient care.

 

[HardRoadPaved]

But a lot of patient care decisions are made based on many variables..... There are many subjective cues that providers go by to come up with the treatment plan.

One thing will be reducing bias

 

[NatCh]

So let's say in 50 years AI and robots complete take over all manufacturing, production, groceries, etc. Also medicine, most other services, financial, office jobs, IT, etc. Then what will be the reason to live for many people. We already have many people with too much time on their hands doing nothing. Less jobs, less money, more psychosocial problems. When people have nothing to do often times they go crazy.

So there will be more porn and TikToks?

 

[Shiyuan]

Can AI trim nails for me? Please and thank you.

 

[VenusinFurs]

A funny thing is I remember an ai thread from over ten years ago where I argued that we weren’t even close to the point where an ai could perform a simple procedure like draining an abscess, and someone authoritatively replied that this was a bad example because draining an abscess is so basic that it should be quite elementary for an AI to do that. The Da Vinci was brought up as an example then, but over ten years later surgeons are absolutely needed to perform robot assisted surgery. It has become a branch of surgical training where the human is very much still performing the thinking, the decision making, the interpretation of visual stimuli. We have seen how household ai projects respond to tasks such as being asked to identify body parts or write a story or create art based on specific themes. We have seen what ai does to faces and bodies when it creates animations. Would you allow an ai anywhere near you with a scalpel?

I think people tend to really really underestimate how complex and poorly understood organic nervous systems are, and they tend to really really overestimate our ability to design a similar level of complexity in a machine at our current technical ability. In another 10 years could we all be out of business? Of course, it’s certainly a not minuscule possibility. But as long as I have seen people claiming ai is magical and can replace humans at anything and given the current unimpressive nature of AI, which we have been chugging along with development for decades, I’m not really inclined to think ai are going to replace humans any time soon.

This is also completely ignoring that a huge part of healing is the human touch. I believe that even if ai does become quite capable of performing all tasks a doctor does, I have doubts that it will develop empathy, an easy ability to form a rapport with a majority of patients, or the ability to seem like a person who has the patients best interests at heart. A machine intelligence may be competent, but humans don’t trust things that seem to mimic humans but aren’t human. I see ai becoming a tool that might be more of a hindrance than a help sometimes but again if I were a betting man I do not think AI can replace humans in medicine because I think a nonhuman entity is going to have limitations when it comes to dealing with humans.

 

[Feli]

.... if I were a betting man I do not think AI can replace humans in medicine because I think a nonhuman entity is going to have limitations when it comes to dealing with humans.

When AI can select ripe tomatoes and slice them in an accurate, reproducible, and cost-effective fashion, then you can start to worry about procedural job security.

That won't be in our lifetime. We've been awaiting that for decades. ^^^

Heck, I would be surprised if AI contributes anything at all meaningful during our career. In reality, that'll likely just be shipping logistics for our supply mailings or a robot vacuuming our office floor or bumbling around the restaurant to get stuck and eventually bring our food to the wrong table. We'd be over the moon if a true self-driving commute car that was affordable and could truly do thick traffic and signs and signals that you see in any metro would ever come available. It'd also be great to see an AI eBay description or website or blog or that wasn't clearly bad grammar, verbose, and largely nonsensical.

For podiatry, I would be elated if there was an affordable machine that could draw up 20 lidocaine syringes or clean and make autoclave packs or re-stock met pads in my clinic or wheel a patient in wheelchair out to their car... won't happen anytime soon, lol. I guess I will have to stick with MAs who make the patients smile. Maybe AI will do that stuff in the 2100+ century?

As you mention, even if AI did the mechanical things well (not even close... and unaffordable if it kinda can), nearly half of the reasons people see doctors is for human factor reassurance, understanding, entertainment, validation. It's not just the mechanical fix...
"The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient, while nature cures the disease.” - Voltaire"

 

[air bud]

Stryker will have a mako assisted total ankle one of these days. Not sure any other foot and ankle role.

 

[Feli]

Stryker will have a mako assisted total ankle one of these days. Not sure any other foot and ankle role.

Mako assistance is what you want for ankle total assistance role. The assistance is provided by Mako, which is by Stryker for total ankle. It is uncertain if Mako will have other roles in foot and total ankle. In nature, Mako is a shark. In surgery ankle, Mako is assist. Stryker Mako assist is new, and it started one of these days. Enjoy the total ankle with Mako assist, by Stryker orthopedic foot and ankle. The role of Mako is for total ankle assisted foot and ankle surgery. If you ask when Stryker Mak assisted total ankle role arrives, it arrives now. Stryker will have further information on Mako and total ankle assisted roles.

 

[dtrack22]

Mako assistance is what you want for ankle total assistance role. The assistance is provided by Mako, which is by Stryker for total ankle. It is uncertain if Mako will have other roles in foot and total ankle. In nature, Mako is a shark. In surgery ankle, Mako is assist. Stryker Mako assist is new, and it started one of these days. Enjoy the total ankle with Mako assist, by Stryker orthopedic foot and ankle. The role of Mako is for total ankle assisted foot and ankle surgery. If you ask when Stryker Mak assisted total ankle role arrives, it arrives now. Stryker will have further information on Mako and total ankle assisted roles.

I’ve been telling you guys Feli is actually an AI chat bot posing as a podiatrist for years. Maybe now people will believe me.

 

[VenusinFurs]

I’m a family doctor who wandered into this thread because I was thinking about ai and wanted to rant, and now I have more numbers to support my hypothesis that podiatrists are based.

 

[air bud]

I’m a family doctor who wandered into this thread because I was thinking about ai and wanted to rant, and now I have more numbers to support my hypothesis that podiatrists are based.

Bro you haven't seen the half of it.

 

[Feli]

Bro you haven't seen the half of it.

I contend that podiatrists are more base than based.