Am I applying "broadly" enough? Advice please!

[student113]

Hi guys,

I have a tentative list of my schools, in order of highest to lowest LizzyM scores according to the spreadsheet. Is this considered "broad?" Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks!

GPA: 3.8 (maybe 3.79, close enough)
MCAT: 34 balanced

CA resident but don't really want to stay in CA. Want to go to IL.

Northwestern
U of Chicago
Harvard
Cornell
U of Michigan
Columbia
Mt. Sinai
Duke
Stanford
UCSD
UCSF
NYU
Dartmouth
U of Virginia
Einstein
UC Irvine
UCLA
Stony Brook
U of Wisconsin
Rosalind Franklin
Loyola
GWU
Rush
U of Illinois

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[WMike]

Hi guys,

I have a tentative list of my schools, in order of highest to lowest LizzyM scores according to the spreadsheet. Is this considered "broad?" Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks!

GPA: 3.8 (maybe 3.79, close enough)
MCAT: 34 balanced

CA resident but don't really want to stay in CA. Want to go to IL.

Northwestern
U of Chicago
Harvard
Cornell
U of Michigan
Columbia
Mt. Sinai
Duke
Stanford
UCSD
UCSF
NYU
Dartmouth
U of Virginia
Einstein
UC Irvine
UCLA
Stony Brook
U of Wisconsin
Rosalind Franklin
Loyola
GWU
Rush
U of Illinois

The schools in bold could be considered safety schools, the rest are top programs so it is hard to say how you would do. It depends a lot on your EC's which you didn't list.

 

[bobsmith]

It's really hard to know how competitive you really are at these schools without having an idea of what your ECs are/how compelling your story is, but assuming above average to good ECs, I actually do think your list is broad enough

I'd also suggest Ohio State if you've got volunteering/altruistic activities since they seem big on that and seem to like CA residents

 

[Catalystik]

Is your BCPM GPA similiarly strong?

Half your list consists of top schools. Do you have the substantive research background that such research-giant schools tend to expect? Do you have strong leadership/community service? Will your application show you have the experiences that suggest you'll be a leader in medicine someday?

 

[J ROD]

I think your list too top heavy....I would add 5 more safety schools that like OOS and your stats match up.

Central Florida and Miami

 

[flip26]

Hi guys,

I have a tentative list of my schools, in order of highest to lowest LizzyM scores according to the spreadsheet. Is this considered "broad?" Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks!

GPA: 3.8 (maybe 3.79, close enough)
MCAT: 34 balanced

CA resident but don't really want to stay in CA. Want to go to IL.

Northwestern
U of Chicago
Harvard
Cornell
U of Michigan
Columbia
Mt. Sinai
Duke
Stanford
UCSD
UCSF
NYU
Dartmouth
U of Virginia
Einstein
UC Irvine
UCLA
Stony Brook
U of Wisconsin
Rosalind Franklin
Loyola
GWU
Rush
U of Illinois

If you want to go to med school in Illinois, then focus on those schools, plus your state schools, and drop the other Top 20s...I would drop all the bolded schools...and then I suggest adding a few more of the "safety" variety: EVMS, VCU, NYMC, SLU, Creighton...

I predict that if you follow through and apply to the bolded schools, you will get only 1 or 2 interviews from that bunch, and it won't be at Harvard, etc.

Your list is an example of overkill on schools where your chances are limited, and not enough focus on schools you are interested in, plus a few safeties for good measure.

 

[student113]

.

 

[surftheiop]

I suspect 34 is pretty low for places like Harvard, U Chicago, etc unless you have multiple significant publications or something.

But like you said, if you don't mind spending the money, its worth a shot to see if something stands out to someone along the way.

 

[Catalystik]

How many years of research will you be listing at the time you submit, and are you close to any protential publications?

The varsity sport involvement may serve you well as another source of altruistic activity, but could you state the hours of clinical experience and the hours of nonmedical volunteering?

 

[flip26]

- Location is big for me, so I am not applying to any Pennsylvania schools, even though they seem to be considered "safety"
- I really only want to be in the areas I have already chosen schools for, in order of preference: Chicago, California/NY, Wisconsin/Michigan, Virginia (but only UVA), Boston, and Duke is just for fun .

I don't really understand how I don't have enough focus on schools I'm interested in: I am applying to all the Chicago schools (not SIU I know). I understand that it looks a little top-heavy numbers wise, but unless I run out of money to apply to those, I'm thinking it can't hurt?
One of the reasons I'm big on location is because my fiance is looking to do a Ph.D. in the same place, so all these places have good choices for her, which is why I'm applying to some reach schools just in case that works out for us better.

So I want to make sure that I have enough relative "safeties" to make this not a stupid gamble. As long as I have my low end covered, I'm thinking I'll apply to reach schools if I have money because 1. why not and 2. my app is not really a numbers-heavy app, and the whole personality/fit game is unpredictable so it can't hurt to see what happens right?

Thanks and please let me know what you think in light of more information!

Here is the problem: your favorite locations and schools are EVERYBODY'S favorite locations and schools. CA, NYC, Chicago, and Boston schools get tons of apps - you need to look outside of those areas.

Nobody wants to hear it, but you really are not very competitive for Harvard, Duke, Michigan, Stanford, et al. But go ahead, knock yourself out.

Your list of schools is very top heavy. Because none of your state schools is a sure thing, you need to apply to some "safeties." If money is no object, stick with your original list, but add some of the safeties I and others suggested.

Just be aware that there is a burnout factor on doing secondaries. I hit the wall at 15 secondaries.

 

[student113]

Hmm I see your point. The truth is being in those areas is more than just preference, more of a family situation thing. So it's really not possible to be in Philly or Florida, etc.

Flip26, are you saying I just don't have enough safeties based on a numbers thing? As in, you think everybody should have x number of schools that can be considered safeties?

Catalystik, I will have held the job for more than a year, and my research thesis is over 2 quarters. My sheer number of volunteering hours will be 200 ish over 1.5 years, but both volunteering positions will be ongoing during application year. But again, I'm really not setting up my app to be a numbers+publications type. I'm not a science major and my hooks are not very conventional, so I'm really building it up to be a personal and unique app (yes I read the thread on being unique hahaha).


So I guess please ignore the top half of my list, I'm just concerned with the "safeties." of course I'm not opposed to having more, but I have the MSAR in front of me and I'm having trouble finding other safeties in those areas. I want to be in those places because this decision doesn't concern just me. I would rather become more competitive and reapply than make my fiance go to a crappy graduate program.

Out of curiosity, where do you guys get your golden rule of how many safeties is enough? Is it just a common SDN thing?

And yes I'm finalizing this list early in order to get a head start on secondaries.

 

[flip26]

EDIT: Taking out Duke, adding SUNY Upstate and Rochester


Hmm I see your point. The truth is being in those areas is more than just preference, more of a family situation thing. So it's really not possible to be in Philly or Florida, etc.

Flip26, are you saying I just don't have enough safeties based on a numbers thing? As in, you think everybody should have x number of schools that can be considered safeties?

Catalystik, I will have held the job for more than a year, and my research thesis is over 2 quarters. My sheer number of volunteering hours will be 200 ish over 1.5 years, but both volunteering positions will be ongoing during application year. But again, I'm really not setting up my app to be a numbers+publications type. I'm not a science major and my hooks are not very conventional, so I'm really building it up to be a personal and unique app (yes I read the thread on being unique hahaha).


So I guess please ignore the top half of my list, I'm just concerned with the "safeties." of course I'm not opposed to having more, but I have the MSAR in front of me and I'm having trouble finding other safeties in those areas. I want to be in those places because this decision doesn't concern just me. I would rather become more competitive and reapply than make my fiance go to a crappy graduate program.

Out of curiosity, where do you guys get your golden rule of how many safeties is enough? Is it just a common SDN thing?

And yes I'm finalizing this list early in order to get a head start on secondaries.

Your CA residency is the problem.

I am a VA resident. I applied to 3 of my state schools (did not do the new VA Tech school), and going into the app cycle I felt confident that I would get acceptances to at least 2 of my 3 state schools. As it turns out, I was accepted at UVA and VCU, and passed on the interview at EVMS that was scheduled to take place after I got the UVA acceptance.

So as I had hoped, I did not need to have any other safeties. Even so, I applied to NYMC (accepted), but the rest of my apps were directed at reaches and so-called dream schools a bit beyond the reach of my LizzyM 72 (3.9/33) which is the same as yours.

I was accepted at NYU and Einstein which were maybe slight reaches for me, got rejected at Wake Forest, but I did not even get interview invites at the very tier of schools you have targeted (MSSM, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, NU, Chicago, Yale, etc). I don't think you should count on getting covered up with interview invites, much less acceptances, at this top tier of schools.

You don't have the instate advantages I had. As a CA resident, you don't have any school you can really count on. Therefore, you need to cover yourself by adding some of the "safeties" that are, in some cases, off the beaten path and not located in the most desirable big cities in the country.

Tying your apps to the grad school goal of your GF is OK, I guess, but it really should not be the driving force in shaping your list - no matter what her grad program goals, med school admissions are much tougher and much harder to predict with any certainty. If anything, she should be making her list sync up with yours and not the other way around...

 

[student113]

Yeah, being a CA resident is a ******* ****.

Haha that being said, I agree with you Flip26. She's a much more competitive applicant for her pool, so she's basically going to wait and apply in the area I end up in, which is already a sacrifice on her part since she could literally go anywhere. So on my part, I'm trying to not get her stuck in an area where the programs don't even make it to the top 100 on the rankings.

And yeah I completely agree with the safety thing. So, I've added U of MN and U of N.C., taken out Duke and Dartmouth. I definitely know that it'll be a crapshoot at those top tiers and I don't have expectations, I'm actually just curious about how they would respond to me because my profile is not very typical. If they think my numbers are not enough, that's all good and I'd be very happy at any of these places.

Btw, do you just define "safety" as schools whose numbers are lower than yours? If so, I have about...at least 6-7 of those, so how many more is enough in your opinion?

And congratulations on your acceptances. I'm not huge on the east coast but UVA is GORGEOUS.

 

[Catalystik]

Yes, safeties have a LizzyM score below yours. Matches have the same LizzyM score. Reaches are above. I'd say 6-7 is enough, which includes compensating for the fact that your state schools can't be relied on, so you need two more than usual (typical would be 4 safeties, no set rules here, just what we observe to seem to work).

 

[flip26]

Yes, safeties have a LizzyM score below yours. Matches have the same LizzyM score. Reaches are above. I'd say 6-7 is enough, which includes compensating for the fact that your state schools can't be relied on, so you need two more than usual (Typical would be 4 safeties).

I mostly agree with this, but I think that if you have to compensate for not having a "safety" in your home state, you may need to add more than just 2 more. Thus for a CA resident, that might mean 8+ so-called safeties.

And even if your numbers > those of schools on the east coast like BU, or Georgetown, or GWU, or any other school in the DC to Boston corridor, when you consider how many apps they receive, there is no way that anybody can consider these schools to be safeties.

 

[flip26]

Yeah, being a CA resident is a ******* ****.

Haha that being said, I agree with you Flip26. She's a much more competitive applicant for her pool, so she's basically going to wait and apply in the area I end up in, which is already a sacrifice on her part since she could literally go anywhere. So on my part, I'm trying to not get her stuck in an area where the programs don't even make it to the top 100 on the rankings.

And yeah I completely agree with the safety thing. So, I've added U of MN and U of N.C., taken out Duke and Dartmouth. I definitely know that it'll be a crapshoot at those top tiers and I don't have expectations, I'm actually just curious about how they would respond to me because my profile is not very typical. If they think my numbers are not enough, that's all good and I'd be very happy at any of these places.

Btw, do you just define "safety" as schools whose numbers are lower than yours? If so, I have about...at least 6-7 of those, so how many more is enough in your opinion?

And congratulations on your acceptances. I'm not huge on the east coast but UVA is GORGEOUS.

Thanks. I feel very fortunate to have my acceptances, especially to UVA.

Honestly, I thought I would at least get a few invites to the "reach" schools I applied to, but I really got slapped down hard. And I had a strong app beyond the numbers - I had research with a pub, and I had very strong LORs, and I had a really well written PS, plus I interviewed well (5 acceptances for 6 interviews) - I had the total package, but I just didn't have that 35+ MCAT that so many of the Top 20 schools now look for as a starting point.

As I said in a prior post, the more safeties, the better, but 6 to 7 may be enough for you...so long as you don't think of GWU as a safety. And adding UNC and other state schools like U of MN is a waste, too - they just don't accept many OOSers, and those that they do seem to have strong ties to the state, something beyond "I have a relative who lives there."

 

[J ROD]

I would try and have 8-10 "safety" schools....

 

[student113]

As I said in a prior post, the more safeties, the better, but 6 to 7 may be enough for you...so long as you don't think of GWU as a safety. And adding UNC and other state schools like U of MN is a waste, too - they just don't accept many OOSers, and those that they do seem to have strong ties to the state, something beyond "I have a relative who lives there."

Hmm the spreadsheet didn't classify U of MN as "very few OOS." From the MSAR it looks like they interviewed about 7% OOS, I guess that's not very friendly =/.

On my spreadsheet 9 schools are listed as "safety," although that includes UCI, U of MN and GWU. Ugh time to comb through the list again.

 

[FluffyRabbit]

Interestingly, I have found that I have had much, much better luck getting interviews from the schools that match my stats and application profile than the ones that in theory I would be very competitive for.

I wouldn't be too obsessed about finding "safeties", i.e. schools that you would surely get into. The application process is pretty unpredictable that way, but as long as you apply to a good number of schools where you have a reasonable shot, you should be alright. Go ahead and apply to as many reaches as you can afford, but try not to count them in the number of schools you're "really" applying to if you know the chances aren't good. I know I would feel better having the rejection letter so I wouldn't think about what might have been if I had tried my luck.

 

[student113]

Interestingly, I have found that I have had much, much better luck getting interviews from the schools that match my stats and application profile than the ones that in theory I would be very competitive for.

I wouldn't be too obsessed about finding "safeties", i.e. schools that you would surely get into. The application process is pretty unpredictable that way, but as long as you apply to a good number of schools where you have a reasonable shot, you should be alright. Go ahead and apply to as many reaches as you can afford, but try not to count them in the number of schools you're "really" applying to if you know the chances aren't good. I know I would feel better having the rejection letter so I wouldn't think about what might have been if I had tried my luck.

Thank you for hitting the nail on the head.

 

[Morsetlis]

Yes, safeties have a LizzyM score below yours. Matches have the same LizzyM score. Reaches are above. I'd say 6-7 is enough, which includes compensating for the fact that your state schools can't be relied on, so you need two more than usual (typical would be 4 safeties, no set rules here, just what we observe to seem to work).

What/where is this LizzyM score?

 

[JJThomson]

What/where is this LizzyM score?

It is from the school selector spread sheet which is no longer available.

 

[flip26]

Interestingly, I have found that I have had much, much better luck getting interviews from the schools that match my stats and application profile than the ones that in theory I would be very competitive for.

I wouldn't be too obsessed about finding "safeties", i.e. schools that you would surely get into. The application process is pretty unpredictable that way, but as long as you apply to a good number of schools where you have a reasonable shot, you should be alright. Go ahead and apply to as many reaches as you can afford, but try not to count them in the number of schools you're "really" applying to if you know the chances aren't good. I know I would feel better having the rejection letter so I wouldn't think about what might have been if I had tried my luck.

To begin with, "safety" is a really poor term, although I use it too.

There is no need for anyone to obsess over them, but I say that you should spend at least as much time finding acceptable "safeties" to apply to as you spend dreaming about the Top 10 to 15...

As for having good if not better luck where one's stats match the school, I agree with that, but I also found that there weren't that many schools that excited me at this data point, either.

And the great thing about safeties, and the interviews associated with them: you can always punt. That is what I did...when I got my UVA acceptance on October 17, the first thing I did was to cancel an upcoming interview at EVMS...EVMS served its purpose for me, and then I no longer needed it. Think of "safeties" as your fallback position, both for interviews and acceptances, and you will be OK. As the cycle goes along, once you get into one of your preferred schools, you can turn loose all of your safeties.

I mean, let's be honest: except for financial reasons or a specific family situation, very few people choose to attend a "safety" over a higher ranked school...

 

[student113]

The school selector spreadsheet is still floating around somewhere. I found two different versions just last week but it did take a bit of searching and I have no idea which threads they were (I think somebody posted it halfway down a thread).

I realized that fortunately for me, 4 of the schools below my LizzyM score are in Chicago. I think everyone would agree to not apply to a safety that you don't want to or can't go to. I really want to stay in a place where I'd be excited to go to all the schools on my list. Also fortunately, there are a lot of "match" schools I love.

Thanks again everyone for all the input. I'm much more comfortable with my list now.

 

[Infinitydrop]

Not very broadly at all I would say. You need to applt to more schools in in your range of scores/slightly below. I have both higher stats than you and made it down to below half your list before i found a school that gave me an interview. Replace your tippytop schools like harvard, mt.sinai, northwestern with schools like tufts, ,usc, einstein, wf, rochester.