Am I being taken advantage of?

[erskine]

Hey everyone,

i've come yet again to ask your opinion. Currently, i'm volunteering as a medical assistant in a doctor's office. It was supposed to have been a paid position, but the job was given to someone else, and I was told that i could instead volunteer in the office and see how a doctor's private practice is run. So i've been doing that for the past few months.

I soon discovered, though, that all my duties primarily involve administrative/clerical work- the closest i get to medical work is taking a patient's vital signs when i check them in. Honestly, i am frustrated by my current position- i dislike paperwork and my position is more aptly related to secretary than a MA. Sometimes the doctor takes me out to lunch to chat and has offered to help me write some research papers, but other than that there is no compensation.

To boot, they are adding more and more responsibilities to my position, to the extent that it seems I am doing all the work of a receptionist, with no pay. I volunteer 3 days a week, which in my opinion is far more than reasonable, especially in a job that, in my opinion, isn't really helping me learn anything at all. The only reason why i've stuck around is because everyone is nice and I've started to do background research on our proposed study, but I was just informed that that research would be done in my own time. To boot, i live quite a distance away and my commute time is over an hour.

I try and remind myself of the potential LORs, or authored papers, and the potential resume booster, but sometimes it feels like they're taking me for granted. Especially since I'm doing mostly secretarial duties, something i'm not accustomed to and learn nothing from. What do you guys think?

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[Ischemic]

1. yes you are getting played
2. get them to pay you
3. go to a hospital and volunteer

 

[erskine]

i also am just starting a scribe position and am a hospital volunteer.

to be honest, it's not that they're not paying me, but rather they're making me do tasks that I really don't want to do rather than what could benefit me. I wouldn't have a problem if i was actually training to be a MA and doing some procedures, or doing research, or even just shadowing. But it's just paperwork, preparing charts, calling for records/labwork, answering the phone, etc.... I think the only thing i've learned is about 60 different phone numbers since i'm on the phone so much.

 

[rHinO1]

1) volunteering is not for YOUR benefit

2) compensation of a good LOR and your own research project seems pretty good. Make it turn into a paid position.

3) most volunteers in hospitals don't even get to take vitals.

4) If you are going to whine then quit

 

[Perrotfish]

Yes you're being taken advantage of. If you don't want pay you shadow: meaning following around the doctor and watching what he does, no helping involved. If you're doing clerical work you should be getting paid. If you want to do research for free go work in an actual lab. If you want to volunteer to help others go find an actual charity and not a for profit doctor's office.

 

[getright]

1. yes you are getting played
2. get them to pay you
3. go to a hospital and volunteer

Yea

 

[rHinO1]

i also am just starting a scribe position and am a hospital volunteer.

to be honest, it's not that they're not paying me, but rather they're making me do tasks that I really don't want to do rather than what could benefit me. I wouldn't have a problem if i was actually training to be a MA and doing some procedures, or doing research, or even just shadowing. But it's just paperwork, preparing charts, calling for records/labwork, answering the phone, etc.... I think the only thing i've learned is about 60 different phone numbers since i'm on the phone so much.

welcome to being pre-med

 

[erskine]

1) volunteering is not for YOUR benefit

2) compensation of a good LOR and your own research project seems pretty good. Make it turn into a paid position.

3) most volunteers in hospitals don't even get to take vitals.

4) If you are going to whine then quit

thanks for the input, i guess. Here's my response to them:

1) you're saying volunteering for 3 full work days a week- i'm not supposed to get anything out of it? I disagree- even volunteering in a hospital gives one a sense of well-being that you're helping out. I could stand volunteering if i was doing something remotely interesting or educational- i'm not. It's paperwork and administrative duties.

2) makes sense

3) it sounds to me like you're trying to compare volunteering a few hours in the hospital as the same thing as volunteering ~25 hours doing paperwork. Have you ever checked a patient in? It takes a minute and you barely have any time to talk to the patients.

4) perhaps....

 

[Perrotfish]

welcome to being pre-med

No, listen, you really don't need to do this crap. I promise, no one even cares that much about this portion of your application (considering a good chunk of people just make it up), and if you do feel the need to have more 'clinical volunteering' you should be able to find a doc who will actually let you see/do something.

A lot of unscrupulous people are going to realize how badly you want med school and are going to try and take advantage of you. They'll try to get you to 'volunteer' in positions that don't give you clinical exposure to save the expense of paying an employee. They'll try to sell you expensive prep courses and medical missions. They'll, in general, try to play you. What you need to understand is that this stuff is really in dead last place in terms of importance on your application and you don't need any of it. Get good grades, kill the MCAT, shadow a couple of doctors, and have at least one hobby. That's it, that's all you need. Don't make yourself miserable by overcomplicating things.

 

[erskine]

welcome to being pre-med

hmm, you seem to be a bit jaded about the process. I've fairly enjoyed my premed experience- i've even started being able to help nurses with basic procedures when i volunteer in the ER.

I'm just curious but what did you do that's comparable to my position?

 

[rHinO1]

thanks for the input, i guess. Here's my response to them:

1) you're saying volunteering for 3 full work days a week- i'm not supposed to get anything out of it? I disagree- even volunteering in a hospital gives one a sense of well-being that you're helping out. I could stand volunteering if i was doing something remotely interesting or educational- i'm not. It's paperwork and administrative duties.

2) makes sense

3) it sounds to me like you're trying to compare volunteering a few hours in the hospital as the same thing as volunteering ~25 hours doing paperwork. Have you ever checked a patient in? It takes a minute and you barely have any time to talk to the patients.

4) perhaps....

If you are going to volunteer then you do what they need you to do. Volunteering is not supposed to be for your benefit, it is to help THEM. If you don't like what you're doing then quit and find something better. Just make sure that something better is available.

I think most pre-meds would be happy if a doc took them to lunch and offered to help them write a research paper 😎

Medical assistant jobs are largely clerical in general btw... I'm surprised you didn't know that.

If you volunteer in a hospital you will more than likely still be answering phones, making beds, etc... b/c volunteers are generally not capable of actual patient care.

 

[erskine]

Yes you're being taken advantage of. If you don't want pay you shadow: meaning following around the doctor and watching what he does, no helping involved. If you're doing clerical work you should be getting paid. If you want to do research for free go work in an actual lab. If you want to volunteer to help others go find an actual charity and not a for profit doctor's office.

thanks for your input- i think i should add that it's not the doctor who's my boss (he's actually a nice guy who is willing to answer my questions if he takes me out to lunch and stuff) but a more senior MA. I might just discuss it with the doctor and find out what he thinks.

 

[rHinO1]

hmm, you seem to be a bit jaded about the process. I've fairly enjoyed my premed experience- i've even started being able to help nurses with basic procedures when i volunteer in the ER.

I'm just curious but what did you do that's comparable to my position?

I don't do that crap b/c I have a paid clinical job... volunteers in my hospital don't do jack.

 

[erskine]

If you are going to volunteer then you do what they need you to do. Volunteering is not supposed to be for your benefit, it is to help THEM. If you don't like what your dong then quit and find something better. Just make sure that something better us available.

I think most pre-meds would be happy if a doc took them to lunch and offered to help them write a research paper 😎

Medical assistant jobs are largely clerical in general btw... I'm surprised you didn't know that.

If you volunteer in a hospital you will more than likely still be answering phones, making beds, etc... b/c volunteers are generally not capable of actual patient care.

actually, MA jobs are supposedly divided between clerical and clinical duties- that's why they're MEDICAL assistants rather than CLERICAL assistants. The few MAs i know work in diagnostic labs or imaging firms, where they actually do procedures, rather than 100% paperwork.

the thing is, volunteering in a hospital ER at least i'm able to talk to the nurses and doctors, ask about procedures, watch procedures, talk to family members, assist them, and even assist with basic duties like cleaning lacerations, helping set a splint, etc.... In my opinion, just being to observe and ask questions in the ER is much more helpful than paperwork.

But i respect your opinion and am glad you commented. Don't think i'm criticizing your input, rather just trying to explain my position, which I think you imagine as a flippant, capricious stance.

 

[Perrotfish]

If you volunteer in a hospital you will more than likely still be answering phones, making beds, etc... b/c volunteers are generally not capable of actual patient care.

Which is an excellent reason not to volunteer to answer phones and make beds in a hospital either.

 

[erskine]

I don't do that crap b/c I have a paid clinical job... volunteers in my hospital don't do jack.

lol, now i understand your lack of empathy. Unless you're saddled with doing something you dislike for free, 3 days a week, i don't think you understand why i'm so frustrated.

I also have a paid clinical job (just started one) and am doing hospital volunteering, which is now quite fulfilling for me.

 

[rHinO1]

Which is an excellent reason not to volunteer to answer phones and make beds in a hospital either.

agreed, unless you have some training or get in at a good free clinic, volunteer clinical experience will be lacking.

lol, now i understand your lack of empathy. Unless you're saddled with doing something you dislike for free, 3 days a week, i don't think you understand why i'm so frustrated.

I also have a paid clinical job (just started one) and am doing hospital volunteering, which is now quite fulfilling for me.

I understand, but that is the nature of volunteer work. You have to be willing to do the stuff they need done to get something back. More than likely they are only willing to take you to lunch and help you with a research project b/c you are helping them by doing all that other stuff.

Edit: If the stuff you are getting back isn't worth it, then quit.

 

[erskine]

agreed, unless you have some training or get in at a good free clinic, volunteer clinical experience will be lacking.

I understand, but that is the nature of volunteer work. You have to be willing to do the stuff they need done to get something back. More than likely they are only willing to take you to lunch and help you with a research project b/c you are helping them by doing all that other stuff.

Edit: If the stuff you are getting back isn't worth it, then quit.

the thing is, at least in volunteer clinical experience you have some indirect exposure (if you're not allowed patient contact) by watching how other emergency room personnel interact with the patient. I've seen leg breaks with bone protrusion, people with severe skin tears, people unconscious, drug addicts, etc.... You can also ask the doctors and nurses questions when they're milling around with nothing else to do. When i'm doing paperwork, i'm not privy to any clinical activity and there's no one i can ask to explain why they're ordering certain tests or what all this medical jargon means. I just think volunteering can be fairly rewarding if you take some initiative. Whereas in my secretary-volunteering-gig, there's really no positives at all if i start showing more dedication- they just give me more paperwork to do before i go home.

what do you do for a clinical job?

 

[Antibodies]

You are getting played. Three full days per week is way too much.

I volunteered in a hospital and didn't do any paperwork.

Don't listen to rHinO1. I suggest you find a better volunteer position. Three days a week in the same volunteer position where you push papers around is way too much. You are suppose to learn something from your volunteer position. Sure, you will do some research and talk to some patients, but is that worth 3 full days a week? I bet you spend the majority of your time on the nonsense stuff. Listen to Perrotfish.

 

[Antibodies]

the thing is, at least in volunteer clinical experience you have some indirect exposure (if you're not allowed patient contact) by watching how other emergency room personnel interact with the patient. I've seen leg breaks with bone protrusion, people with severe skin tears, people unconscious, drug addicts, etc.... You can also ask the doctors and nurses questions when they're milling around with nothing else to do. When i'm doing paperwork, i'm not privy to any clinical activity and there's no one i can ask to explain why they're ordering certain tests or what all this medical jargon means. I just think volunteering can be fairly rewarding if you take some initiative. Whereas in my secretary-volunteering-gig, there's really no positives at all if i start showing more dedication- they just give me more paperwork to do before i go home.

what do you do for a clinical job?

If you are going to do this you should get paid to do it. Heck, I got paid to do research (with no BS paperwork involved).

 

[Poliscidoc]

This thread was not what I was accepting, come on people!

 

[DarknightX]

No, listen, you really don't need to do this crap. I promise, no one even cares that much about this portion of your application (considering a good chunk of people just make it up), and if you do feel the need to have more 'clinical volunteering' you should be able to find a doc who will actually let you see/do something.

A lot of unscrupulous people are going to realize how badly you want med school and are going to try and take advantage of you. They'll try to get you to 'volunteer' in positions that don't give you clinical exposure to save the expense of paying an employee. They'll try to sell you expensive prep courses and medical missions. They'll, in general, try to play you. What you need to understand is that this stuff is really in dead last place in terms of importance on your application and you don't need any of it. Get good grades, kill the MCAT, shadow a couple of doctors, and have at least one hobby. That's it, that's all you need. Don't make yourself miserable by overcomplicating things.

Great post. Just about sums it up.

Just go volunteer at a hospital once a week for a couple hours. Like the above poster said, you're working way too hard for very little benefit.

It's like having an ice cream sundae....grades are the ice cream, MCAT is the toppings, and volunteering/EC's is the cherry on top. No matter how awesome the cherry is, it isn't going to make up for the rest of the stuff.

 

[erskine]

alas, poliscidoc, i humbly beg your forgiveness in creating such a suggestive title.

just as i was hitting Post New Thread i realized that it could easily be misconstrued. But if you want to, you can think of me as a hot, insecure girl, looking for comfort and security in this harsh world....


thanks for the input, antibodies, darknight (Best. Analogy. Ever.)- i think i'll just talk to the doctor tomorrow and see what he thinks. The best case scenario in my mind would be that I volunteer part of the day doing paperwork and the rest doing research/shadowing.

 

[morning]

1) you're saying volunteering for 3 full work days a week- i'm not supposed to get anything out of it? I disagree- even volunteering in a hospital gives one a sense of well-being that you're helping out. I could stand volunteering if i was doing something remotely interesting or educational- i'm not. It's paperwork and administrative

The point of volunteer positions are not to benefit you or give you experience. They are so the organization offering the position can take advantage of free labor. The sooner you realize that, the happier you will be.

But if it's boring the crap out of you, find somewhere else for sure.

 

[Mr Karatepants]

There are *some* volunteering opportunities out there where you will get more patient contact and clinical experience. You may have to look harder, or it may be a competitive position.

At my volunteer gig, I take vitals, do EKG's, set patients up on monitors, spike IV bags, transport patients, etc... If you gain the trust of a nurse, you are free to help him or her to the extent that they trust you. There are, of course, certain things you absolutely cannot do. However, I've assisted during med codes and traumas (minimally!) and even performed chest compressions - that's certainly direct patient experience if anything is.

However, my hospital is one of two programs I can think of in my area that allow their volunteers this kind of responsibility. There are at least a half dozen others that are more popular geographically that only allow volunteers restocking and carting privileges. If you want a spot at my hospital, it's competitive. At any given moment, there are about 300 volunteer applications active, with only around 60 getting to orientation. Of volunteers that make it through orientation, only 10-15 at a time can go to the emergency department while there are usually between 40 to 80 applicants (waiting for ED while getting experience elsewhere in the hospital).

Take your time and look around and talk to some people - see if you can get into a competitive free clinic or a county hospital with a solid program. Quit getting taken advantage of, but don't burn bridges. Line up a solid gig for yourself and respectfully talk to your M.D. saying, "I really appreciate the time I spent here but I lined up this position where I will get xx experience and I have to move on." Hopefully you can still get a letter out of it.

 

[Poliscidoc]

alas, poliscidoc, i humbly beg your forgiveness in creating such a suggestive title.

just as i was hitting Post New Thread i realized that it could easily be misconstrued. But if you want to, you can think of me as a hot, insecure girl, looking for comfort and security in this harsh world....


thanks for the input, antibodies, darknight (Best. Analogy. Ever.)- i think i'll just talk to the doctor tomorrow and see what he thinks. The best case scenario in my mind would be that I volunteer part of the day doing paperwork and the rest doing research/shadowing.

I was so counting on a Pre Med guy that was nerdy doing the HW and helping the hot girl in his science classes cheat. Because "really
man she just doesn't get it and we are dateing
she just doesn't want everybody to know."

 

[TFS]

can you ask to shadow them? when i volunteered as what kind of amounted to a MA, i got to interview the patient, present to the doctor, shadow them in the exam room, etc...so that was awesome.

i had to go all the paperwork for the patient, which i didn't mind because the clinical part was great. plus it makes the experience more real.

i think it's useful to see all aspects of the business, but if all you are doing is paperwork, i would reduce my time there to once a week, or keep the experience to a shorter duration. i'm kind of dubious about the doctor's offer to help you write a research paper - do they do research, write?

finding volunteering stuff for premed can really suck. i spent 6 months at a hospital and washed toys. um fun.

 

[Thejakeman]

Honestly, sounds like you have a better deal than you think. Sounds like you're buddy-buddy with everyone there, they must like you (more importantly the doctors you work with) as they are taking you out to lunch and giving you additional duties. I'm sure they admire the work that you are doing for them, however it sounds like they are taking your presence for granted.

However, look at it this way, no matter where you are volunteering, you're always going to want to do more. The volunteers in the ED clean beds and transport patients. You're always going to want to be up in everyone grill, in the trauma room, watching cool procedures, doing and seeing more, etc, etc. You mentioned that you are getting a job as a scribe, that's great! It will open even more doors for you and get you some additional exp. Cut back on your volunteer hours. I am sure they will understand and will most likely either offer you a paid job or find someone else fill in for you. Regardless, don't lose those connections with the doctors you have already formed. Trust me, it will all pay off eventually. ...Oh the hoops we go through to get into medical school!

 

[Web MD]

I'm working as an MA in a private practice setting as well, started off volunteer, demanded pay, it's much better now. Also, since you aren't actually certified as an MA you probably can't expect much on the clinical side of things. If you're doing work, it's a job and you should save up now during the summer to fund your drinking habits in the fall. The research stuff sounds kind of nice though, especially if you can be 1st/2nd author

 

[Baron Samedi]

Nobody else sees the irony in volunteering at a private practice?

If you're gonna volunteer, actually help people. All you're doing right now is increasing some doc's profits. Go to a free clinic or non-profit hospital and help with post-op care. You're experiences will be much more rewarding and you will have much more to talk about in your interview.

 

[Web MD]

I think everyone who told OP to get paid sees the irony. On the other hand, what if we could have overambitious pre-meds undercut mid level providers by volunteering in both hospital and private practice settings? It's a brilliant move for physicians to counter mid level encrouchment - toss in a research project and LOR and BAM now both sides know what it feels like to be undercut. Of course, after several years, the pre-med MAs will slowly work their way up from volunteer to equal salary as those they replaced.

 

[nogolfinsnow]

So you "volunteer" 24hrs/week doings things that someone with a high school diploma gets paid to do (and also probably gets benefits, sick time, vacation, etc)? How do you pay rent/bills? You're totally being taken advantage of. Make them pay you or cut back to a half day per week.

 

[rbnsafsadgf]

If you are "volunteering" for a private office (i.e., not a non-profit clinic) and you are doing work that other people would get paid to do, that office is committing a gross violation of labor law.

I would forget about the LOR, contact your state's labor office and demand back-pay as you are entitled to by law for the work you have done (at least in Oregon, YMMV).

 

[erskine]

UPDATE

I talked to the doctor and told him what i thought and he basically said I'm free to do whatever I want since I'm a volunteer. Now, my relationship with him is fine- he's an extremely nice guy, offering to help me write a research paper, shadow him, introduce me to other doctors, and so forth. But during business hours, i rarely interact with the doctor- he's too busy seeing patients. Rather, i "report" to a trained Medical Assistant who really dictates what i do and when to do it. I definitely feel like that MA is taking my work for granted- and as far as I can tell i'm just doing his work. But the Dr said i could set my hours and i decided to volunteer only 1.5 days/week, half my previous load. It's still somewhat of a pain, but i think far more reasonable and I'm fairly satisfied with the arrangement. I'll be interesting to see how the MA reacts to this, though, since he's kind of a jerk.

Once again thanks for all your input.

 

[erskine]

heh, i finally figured out how to do the multi-quote thing

The point of volunteer positions are not to benefit you or give you experience. They are so the organization offering the position can take advantage of free labor. The sooner you realize that, the happier you will be.

But if it's boring the crap out of you, find somewhere else for sure.

lol, i'd generally agree but so far my hospital volunteering position is actually quite interesting- i've gotten to assist in cleaning lacerations, placing splints, setting 12-lead EKGs (i think that's what it was....), patient transport, etc.... And if nothing else, just being able to talk to the nurses and doctors is quite illuminating. But i do volunteer at a fairly small, rural-area hospital so they're probably more open than your average hospital.

Take your time and look around and talk to some people - see if you can get into a competitive free clinic or a county hospital with a solid program. Quit getting taken advantage of, but don't burn bridges. Line up a solid gig for yourself and respectfully talk to your M.D. saying, "I really appreciate the time I spent here but I lined up this position where I will get xx experience and I have to move on." Hopefully you can still get a letter out of it.

extremely good advice if i ever have to leave this position. thanks.

I was so counting on a Pre Med guy that was nerdy doing the HW and helping the hot girl in his science classes cheat. Because "really
man she just doesn't get it and we are dateing
she just doesn't want everybody to know."

you know nothing about Brooke....

can you ask to shadow them? when i volunteered as what kind of amounted to a MA, i got to interview the patient, present to the doctor, shadow them in the exam room, etc...so that was awesome.

i had to go all the paperwork for the patient, which i didn't mind because the clinical part was great. plus it makes the experience more real.

i think it's useful to see all aspects of the business, but if all you are doing is paperwork, i would reduce my time there to once a week, or keep the experience to a shorter duration. i'm kind of dubious about the doctor's offer to help you write a research paper - do they do research, write?

finding volunteering stuff for premed can really suck. i spent 6 months at a hospital and washed toys. um fun.

lol, it's good to know that so many other premeds have crappy volunteering gigs. Yeah, the dr i work with has written numerous papers and answered a lot of my questions about the research. It seems pretty legit and almost too good to be true for someone like me who has no publications.

Honestly, sounds like you have a better deal than you think. Sounds like you're buddy-buddy with everyone there, they must like you (more importantly the doctors you work with) as they are taking you out to lunch and giving you additional duties. I'm sure they admire the work that you are doing for them, however it sounds like they are taking your presence for granted.

However, look at it this way, no matter where you are volunteering, you're always going to want to do more. The volunteers in the ED clean beds and transport patients. You're always going to want to be up in everyone grill, in the trauma room, watching cool procedures, doing and seeing more, etc, etc. You mentioned that you are getting a job as a scribe, that's great! It will open even more doors for you and get you some additional exp. Cut back on your volunteer hours. I am sure they will understand and will most likely either offer you a paid job or find someone else fill in for you. Regardless, don't lose those connections with the doctors you have already formed. Trust me, it will all pay off eventually. ...Oh the hoops we go through to get into medical school!

hehe, thanks for the sound advice. I feel like a damn showdog a lot of the time....

I'm working as an MA in a private practice setting as well, started off volunteer, demanded pay, it's much better now. Also, since you aren't actually certified as an MA you probably can't expect much on the clinical side of things. If you're doing work, it's a job and you should save up now during the summer to fund your drinking habits in the fall. The research stuff sounds kind of nice though, especially if you can be 1st/2nd author

heh, i started renting out my couch/futon for anyone who wants to crash in my living room- one 6-pack of imported beer/person/night. Pay would definitely be nice, but i'm not sure if i want to get locked into a position that i honestly don't like. And i think all the experience boosters and research benefits/shadowing stuff are worth 1.5 days.

Nobody else sees the irony in volunteering at a private practice?

If you're gonna volunteer, actually help people. All you're doing right now is increasing some doc's profits. Go to a free clinic or non-profit hospital and help with post-op care. You're experiences will be much more rewarding and you will have much more to talk about in your interview.

i think its hard, though, to be able to see those rewarding experiences unless you have some connections. What do post-op volunteers do? I've never heard of them.

If you are "volunteering" for a private office (i.e., not a non-profit clinic) and you are doing work that other people would get paid to do, that office is committing a gross violation of labor law.

I would forget about the LOR, contact your state's labor office and demand back-pay as you are entitled to by law for the work you have done (at least in Oregon, YMMV).

lol, i don't think i'd want to do anything THAT drastic, but i guess its always an option if they stab me in the back with the research gig/LOR/shadowing and stuff. Always good to have a backup, guns-blazing approach in your pocket.

 

[radiodoc99]

Most of medicine involves service and volunteerism.

 

[d1ony5u5]

Good work, OP.

I guess I'm a little late since you seem to have solved your problem already, but the truth is that volunteering, unlike some people here think, is a 2-way street.

For all other pre-meds with similar issues: It is your time you are volunteering, so you decide what to do with it. If you don't like what you are getting from the experience, you are more than free to discuss it with the people supervising you, and if you can't get a better arrangement, it is quite possible that you could get more a more rewarding experience by volunteering that same time somewhere else.

Your time=your call.

Don't let people tell you you basically gave up all autonomy because you are volunteering. Redefine volunteering as giving up your time voluntarily to DO SOMETHING YOU ACTUALLY LIKE, as opposed to getting paid for it.