Am I competitive for top medical schools? MD/PhD

[silentmelody]

I'm currently one year out of college in a Masters program (not in a science field). I did my undergrad at HYS.

social science major
cum undergrad GPA: 3.8
BPCM GPA: 3.7
MCAT: 38
CA resident
ECs: 2 years hospital volunteering, 3+ years research in my field (not science -is this going to hurt?), 2+ years interning at a public health organization while in college, president of a club and involvement in a few others

Also, I got a D+ in Calculus III my freshman year, which was out of my control due to personal factors due to health. It's basically the only grade that's really dragging my GPA down, but I know that it looks awful... I have As in the rest of my prereqs...and I later retook the Calc class and got an A. I know that med schools will still see the D+ though...

I would love to apply to MD/PhD programs (in my social science field, which was also my undergrad major), but the thing is, the MD/PhD in my field is only worth the time/$ investment if I can go to a top school -- my top choices would be Harvard, UCSF, Yale, Stanford, maybe Penn, Columbia, and some others... Do I have a reasonable chance at these schools or do I need to drop the dream of the MD/PhD and just go for a PhD? Or would it help if I acquired some science research experience before applying? Or would you recommend retaking the MCAT (I'm not sure if I'll be able to do much better, though)?

Thanks for your help.

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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think that if your not competitive that no one in this world is.

My advice don't worry about a D+ in calc 3, it will not hurt or affect you at all because of your high BCPM gpa. I'd say you have a very very very good shot at MSTP MD/PHD programs. Also having research in a non-science field is totally fine.
I'm curious what kind of PhD are you interested in obtaining?

 

[silentmelody]

Thanks for your reply! I'm interested in a Sociology PhD.

Any other opinions would be welcome as well.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Thanks for your reply! I'm interested in a Sociology PhD.

Any other opinions would be welcome as well.

Ah very nice, well good luck!

 

[harvman11]

You would have a chance... but at the schools you mentioned, there's nothing near a guarantee. I certainly wouldn't count on getting in at one of those schools... what's wrong with going to a (still prestigious) school like Northwestern, UCSD, Case Western, etc? I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm just saying you can't rely on getting into a school in the top 10 when there's generally ~10 spots per program, and very few of those spots go to social science applicants. Now that I think about it, I don't think I encountered a single social science applicant at any of my interviews.

In terms of your question, your definitely a competitive applicant for those spots. Your MCAT is strong, your GPA will be a bit below average for those programs but your MCAT should make up for it. I'm not familiar with standards for social science applicants, but I'd imagine there's no reason you'd need research in a hard science field.

Just a side note I'm not sure you're clear on... MD/PhD programs are completely free, and you'll be getting a stipend of about $25,000 per year during both med and grad school. I'm just saying because you were talking about the time/$$$ investment.

 

[silentmelody]

Thanks for your honesty; I appreciate it. I'm actually not fully certain on whether MD/PhD Social Science programs are fully funded - Harvard's website at least seems to imply that funding is external and not guaranteed.

I didn't mention this earlier, but I'm on a Fulbright scholarship this year. Does that improve my chances at all, or same story? My only issue with programs outside Top 10 is that at that point, I have to start weighing the pros & cons of going MD/PhD versus just getting one of the degrees at a more prestigious school. Also, since I will be applying from abroad, I am trying to minimize the # of interviews to schools that I am only legitimately interested in. My GRE score is 1500+ and with my LORs, etc. I am fairly confident about getting into a top PhD program, if that's what it comes to. But obviously, I would prefer to go the MD/PhD route.

Out of curiosity, at the schools I mentioned... are my chances of getting in better if I apply MD/PhD or just MD? I'm fairly confident that I can get into top PhD programs in my field; I'm just more concerned about the MD part since like you said, my GPA is a bit low for these schools. Also, I don't particularly want to just go the MD route and then be straddled with a ton of debt, since I would like to go into academic medicine.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Thanks for your honesty; I appreciate it. I'm actually not fully certain on whether MD/PhD Social Science programs are fully funded - Harvard's website at least seems to imply that funding is external and not guaranteed.

I didn't mention this earlier, but I'm on a Fulbright scholarship this year. Does that improve my chances at all, or same story? My only issue with programs outside Top 10 is that at that point, I have to start weighing the pros & cons of going MD/PhD versus just getting one of the degrees at a more prestigious school. Also, since I will be applying from abroad, I am trying to minimize the # of interviews to schools that I am only legitimately interested in. My GRE score is 1500+ and with my LORs, etc. I am fairly confident about getting into a top PhD program, if that's what it comes to. But obviously, I would prefer to go the MD/PhD route.

Out of curiosity, at the schools I mentioned... are my chances of getting in better if I apply MD/PhD or just MD? I'm fairly confident that I can get into top PhD programs in my field; I'm just more concerned about the MD part since like you said, my GPA is a bit low for these schools. Also, I don't particularly want to just go the MD route and then be straddled with a ton of debt, since I would like to go into academic medicine.

Almost all MD/PHD programs are funded. Even almost every DO/PHD program is totally funded. If MD/PHD's were not funded I cant tell you right now that very few people would spend 3 extra years in school.

 

[J ROD]

In the end, I think you will be fine...no matter!!

 

[drizzt3117]

why do you want a MD? If you would do PhD only if you weren't getting into a top program, that certainly begs the question.

 

[silentmelody]

I mean, my first choice is the MD/PhD... I'm just saying that if it comes to one or the other, I would choose just the PhD over the MD because I NEED the PhD for what I want to do. The MD would just be nice to have as well. Anyway, at this point I really would prefer to do the MD/PhD if possible, considering the amount of effort I've already invested in taking premed courses, the MCAT, etc... now it just comes down to actually filling out the applications, doing interviews, etc...

I mean, do you think I ought to choose one over the other... or do I have a fair chance at top 10 MSTP?

 

[JJMrK]

Why does it have to be a top 10? We're talking about so few spots that trying to predict your chances is pretty much pointless. You are competitive for MD/PhD programs.

 

[drizzt3117]

I mean, my first choice is the MD/PhD... I'm just saying that if it comes to one or the other, I would choose just the PhD over the MD because I NEED the PhD for what I want to do. The MD would just be nice to have as well. Anyway, at this point I really would prefer to do the MD/PhD if possible, considering the amount of effort I've already invested in taking premed courses, the MCAT, etc... now it just comes down to actually filling out the applications, doing interviews, etc...

I mean, do you think I ought to choose one over the other... or do I have a fair chance at top 10 MSTP?

I just think it sounds like medicine isn't what you really want to do, which is definitely going to hurt your application anywhere if it comes across that way.

I think you have a chance, but it's really hard to tell when you're limiting yourself that far, top 10 mstp is like 80 spots in the whole country.

 

[harvman11]

I mean, my first choice is the MD/PhD... I'm just saying that if it comes to one or the other, I would choose just the PhD over the MD because I NEED the PhD for what I want to do. The MD would just be nice to have as well. Anyway, at this point I really would prefer to do the MD/PhD if possible, considering the amount of effort I've already invested in taking premed courses, the MCAT, etc... now it just comes down to actually filling out the applications, doing interviews, etc...

I mean, do you think I ought to choose one over the other... or do I have a fair chance at top 10 MSTP?

You didn't exactly answer his question of why you want the MD, and that's an answer I'm somewhat curious about just because all MD/PhD applicants have their own motivations, and I find it very interesting.

In your defense though, I think probably 80% of MD/PhD applicants would choose a straight PhD over a straight MD. This is just based on my discussions with other applicants on the interview trail, but if you're applying for an MD/PhD you are committed to your research. The medical part is nice, but the "ideal" MD/PhD grad spends 80% of their time in research, and only 20% in patient care... I think it's pretty obvious where the priorities lie. Again, I'm speaking in generalities here, but I'm just saying choosing the PhD over the MD is considered "normal".

 

[drizzt3117]

Well, the thing is, most MD/PhD people would do hard science PhDs if they didn't do MD/PhDs, in which case, even if they're not seeing patients 100%, they're still advancing research in medicine. I'm not entirely seeing this with a major in sociology. You don't need a MD/PhD to do research, run a lab, etc. You can definitely do that MD only. That's what I'm intending to do, so I think some more explanation is necessary.

 

[harvman11]

Well, the thing is, most MD/PhD people would do hard science PhDs if they didn't do MD/PhDs, in which case, even if they're not seeing patients 100%, they're still advancing research in medicine. I'm not entirely seeing this with a major in sociology. You don't need a MD/PhD to do research, run a lab, etc. You can definitely do that MD only. That's what I'm intending to do, so I think some more explanation is necessary.

Good point, I'm just used to thinking about it in terms of hard sciences, I'm not completely aware of the connection here either, except perhaps to psychiatry.

 

[drizzt3117]

Good point, I'm just used to thinking about it in terms of hard sciences, I'm not completely aware of the connection here either, except perhaps to psychiatry.

Right, I mean if you were interviewing for MSTP and someone was like "what would you do if you couldn't go into medicine?" and you said "I would get a PhD and do research to help find a cure for cancer because of my family experiences." then I mean, one can clearly see the connection. I'm just not seeing it without some more explanation and if I were interviewing the OP I would feel the same way.

 

[silentmelody]

Well, my long term goals are to do research on health policy and the social factors of health and disease in populations. I feel that a MD/PhD Sociology would give me the best tools that I need to conduct this sort of research. I have no interest in ever opening a basic science lab, etc. obviously; what I'm interested in is going into academic medicine OR professorship in a sociology department- whatever lies in my future. Obviously to some extent, I could study the social aspects of health within sociology itself without ever getting a MD degree; but the MD is going to be valuable for me to have as well. And it goes without saying that job prospects for a MD/PhD sociology are a LOT better than just the sociology PhD alone. Of course I would like to see patients as well for some of my time, but I'm just saying that that's not presently a priority. Does that make me come across as "not committed to medicine"? Because in the traditional way, I'm not; but I'm fairly sure that most MD/PhD applicants aren't committed to medicine in the same way as straight MD applicants.

In other words, if I couldn't get the MD, I would just get the PhD alone and still go into the same field with the same emphasis - I just think that I would not understand my research NEARLY as well as if I had a MD/PhD.

Another possibility that I'm considering is doing my MD and PhD separately if I can't get admitted MD/PhD to any top programs, but the huge disadvantage of this is that I would go heavily in debt with medical school...and since I want to go into academia, I'd likely be blundering in debt for quite some time. Obviously MSTP is preferable. My reason for "top programs" is because academia obviously pays a great deal of attention to where you receive your graduate degrees - while the school for the medical degree doesn't matter quite as much, the school for the PhD matters a great deal. Not to be arrogant, but I know i have the credentials & background to get into a top 5 Sociology PhD program, and it's hard for me to gamble that with the opportunity to do MD/PhD at a lower ranked school.

edit:
when I'm saying top 10, I'm moreso talking about top schools in sociology with medical schools, NOT top 10 medical schools necessarily. So, something like:

-UCSF/Berkeley
-Harvard
-Stanford
-UMich
-UChicago
-Northwestern
-Columbia
-Penn
-maybe UCLA

better chances?

 

[drizzt3117]

You'd spend 7 extra years minimum doing med school and residency and not even use them? That seems really counterproductive. Getting a MD is not intended to "understand your research better" If you want to do research in that area, just get your PhD in sociology and do the research. There's a serious shortage of physicians right now and most people doing MD/PhD still intend to see patients in a clinical or clinical research setting at as part of their normal job description.

To answer your question, I think you'd be a little more competitive given those parameters. But I think you need to think long and hard about whether this is in your best interest given your career goals.

Well, my long term goals are to do research on health policy and the social factors of health and disease in populations. I feel that a MD/PhD Sociology would give me the best tools that I need to conduct this sort of research. I have no interest in ever opening a basic science lab, etc. obviously; what I'm interested in is going into academic medicine OR professorship in a sociology department- whatever lies in my future. Obviously to some extent, I could study the social aspects of health within sociology itself without ever getting a MD degree; but the MD is going to be valuable for me to have as well. And it goes without saying that job prospects for a MD/PhD sociology are a LOT better than just the sociology PhD alone. Of course I would like to see patients as well for some of my time, but I'm just saying that that's not presently a priority. Does that make me come across as "not committed to medicine"? Because in the traditional way, I'm not; but I'm fairly sure that most MD/PhD applicants aren't committed to medicine in the same way as straight MD applicants.

In other words, if I couldn't get the MD, I would just get the PhD alone and still go into the same field with the same emphasis - I just think that I would not understand my research NEARLY as well as if I had a MD/PhD.

Another possibility that I'm considering is doing my MD and PhD separately if I can't get admitted MD/PhD to any top programs, but the huge disadvantage of this is that I would go heavily in debt with medical school...and since I want to go into academia, I'd likely be blundering in debt for quite some time. Obviously MSTP is preferable. My reason for "top programs" is because academia obviously pays a great deal of attention to where you receive your graduate degrees - while the school for the medical degree doesn't matter quite as much, the school for the PhD matters a great deal. Not to be arrogant, but I know i have the credentials & background to get into a top 5 Sociology PhD program, and it's hard for me to gamble that with the opportunity to do MD/PhD at a lower ranked school.

edit:
when I'm saying top 10, I'm moreso talking about top schools in sociology with medical schools, NOT top 10 medical schools necessarily. So, something like:

-UCSF/Berkeley
-Harvard
-Stanford
-UMich
-UChicago
-Northwestern
-Columbia
-Penn
-maybe UCLA

better chances?

 

[harvman11]

Of course I would like to see patients as well for some of my time, but I'm just saying that that's not presently a priority. Does that make me come across as "not committed to medicine"? Because in the traditional way, I'm not; but I'm fairly sure that most MD/PhD applicants aren't committed to medicine in the same way as straight MD applicants.

In other words, if I couldn't get the MD, I would just get the PhD alone and still go into the same field with the same emphasis - I just think that I would not understand my research NEARLY as well as if I had a MD/PhD.

While I agree with drizzt that you do need to think carefully about your career goals, if you actually do want to see patients in any context I think your desire for an MD is valid (though that wasn't the most convincing "I want to be a doctor" speech I've ever heard ). I know many people have varying opinions on this, but I have no problem with an MD/PhD doing straight research or going into industry. In fact, I would have much more of a problem with an MD/PhD going into private practice and ignoring research, because the whole reason their school was paid for was to train medical researchers, not private practitioners.

That said, you definitely should have a commitment to improving patient care. Whether this is through "bench" (or the sociology equivalent) to bedside research or direct patient care, an MD/PhD (or a research oriented MD for that matter) should be working toward improving the lives of patients in a direct manner. A big part of the reason to get the MD is to have experience of what issues exist on the clinical side, and be able to use these experiences to direct your research.

As for your chances, they're slightly better at said schools, but all of them are still top 20, and everything except Northwestern is top 15. However, with your stats / experiences, I would bet that you would get into at least 1 of those schools if you applied to all of them. I would still look for a couple more "safety" schools, either that or make sure to apply to PhD programs as well. That way you won't be stuck without a place to go.