am i fooling myself??

[radi0headfan]

Hey guys, I'm a nontrad(have already taken post-bacc classes and MCAT) that's thinking about applying to med school this yr, am currently having some serious doubts, and was hoping for some input since you all are in med school. Please bear with me:

I worked as an elec. engineer for a little bit after college...I'm a couple of years out of college now and still feel like I'm not getting anywhere with certain decisions that I need to make. My engr'ing job, compared to other ones in the industry, was pretty cool, but after some serious thinking, I decided to pursue medicine. As much optimism as I have towards becoming a doctor, I feel like many of my other interests are going to be sacrificed- I just know to what degree. Some of the interests I hope to keep around are pretty commonplace... like going to the gym, being able to play w/ a band on wknds,..normal right?..but I don' t know, it just seems like the few medical students I've talked to say life is hell and that I should have kept my engr'ing job. I try to take their responses as lightly as possible b/c I feel everyone, no matter what situation they're in, tends to see the grass greener on the other side. However, I'm still scared that some of their exaggerations may actually be true and that maybe I'm not cut out for the profession on some levels. I've given a lot of thought about going to medical school and have developed strong interests in several of the specialties, but I don't want to fool myself on how much I'll have to sacrifice. It's always a catch though, since the only way to find out is to actually experience it, and I feel not going through with it will always make me wonder. So I thought getting a glimpse into some other ppl's experiences(maybe at how you all arrived at a decision if you were in my shoes and maybe if you've ended up sacrificing a lot more than you thought you would) would give me a much better idea of what to expect and ultimately bring me to a decision. I've already read the "Would you do med school all over again" thread from a few yrs back, and that was insightful, somewhat depressing, and confusing all at the same time. Of course, I know asking for others' opinions could potentially get me even more confused, but I don't really know what else to do at this point. It def. doesn't help being extremely indecisive either..i'm going nuts! Maybe my last resort will be to find one of those super-reliable online personality tests that can undoubtedly tell me if this is/isn't the right thing for me Anyways, thanks in advance as I'd really appreciate any of your comments/advice.

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[Law2Doc]

Hey guys, I'm a nontrad(have already taken post-bacc classes and MCAT) that's thinking about applying to med school this yr, am currently having some serious doubts, and was hoping for some input since you all are in med school. Please bear with me:

I worked as an elec. engineer for a little bit after college...I'm a couple of years out of college now and still feel like I'm not getting anywhere with certain decisions that I need to make. My engr'ing job, compared to other ones in the industry, was pretty cool, but after some serious thinking, I decided to pursue medicine. As much optimism as I have towards becoming a doctor, I feel like many of my other interests are going to be sacrificed- I just know to what degree. Some of the interests I hope to keep around are pretty commonplace... like going to the gym, being able to play w/ a band on wknds,..normal right?..but I don' t know, it just seems like the few medical students I've talked to say life is hell and that I should have kept my engr'ing job. I try to take their responses as lightly as possible b/c I feel everyone, no matter what situation they're in, tends to see the grass greener on the other side. However, I'm still scared that some of their exaggerations may actually be true and that maybe I'm not cut out for the profession on some levels. I've given a lot of thought about going to medical school and have developed strong interests in several of the specialties, but I don't want to fool myself on how much I'll have to sacrifice. It's always a catch though, since the only way to find out is to actually experience it, and I feel not going through with it will always make me wonder. So I thought getting a glimpse into some other ppl's experiences(maybe at how you all arrived at a decision if you were in my shoes and maybe if you've ended up sacrificing a lot more than you thought you would) would give me a much better idea of what to expect and ultimately bring me to a decision. I've already read the "Would you do med school all over again" thread from a few yrs back, and that was insightful, somewhat depressing, and confusing all at the same time. Of course, I know asking for others' opinions could potentially get me even more confused, but I don't really know what else to do at this point. It def. doesn't help being extremely indecisive either..i'm going nuts! Maybe my last resort will be to find one of those super-reliable online personality tests that can undoubtedly tell me if this is/isn't the right thing for me Anyways, thanks in advance as I'd really appreciate any of your comments/advice.

This post should probably get posted in the nontrad board - folks there are more likely to have career changing experiences similar to what you have contemplated. But FWIW, IMHO personality tests are useless for any purpose other than weeding out the unstable (from eg law enforcement).

 

[Krisss17]

Hey guys, I'm a nontrad(have already taken post-bacc classes and MCAT) that's thinking about applying to med school this yr, am currently having some serious doubts, and was hoping for some input since you all are in med school. Please bear with me:

I worked as an elec. engineer for a little bit after college...I'm a couple of years out of college now and still feel like I'm not getting anywhere with certain decisions that I need to make. My engr'ing job, compared to other ones in the industry, was pretty cool, but after some serious thinking, I decided to pursue medicine. As much optimism as I have towards becoming a doctor, I feel like many of my other interests are going to be sacrificed- I just know to what degree. Some of the interests I hope to keep around are pretty commonplace... like going to the gym, being able to play w/ a band on wknds,..normal right?..but I don' t know, it just seems like the few medical students I've talked to say life is hell and that I should have kept my engr'ing job. I try to take their responses as lightly as possible b/c I feel everyone, no matter what situation they're in, tends to see the grass greener on the other side. However, I'm still scared that some of their exaggerations may actually be true and that maybe I'm not cut out for the profession on some levels. I've given a lot of thought about going to medical school and have developed strong interests in several of the specialties, but I don't want to fool myself on how much I'll have to sacrifice. It's always a catch though, since the only way to find out is to actually experience it, and I feel not going through with it will always make me wonder. So I thought getting a glimpse into some other ppl's experiences(maybe at how you all arrived at a decision if you were in my shoes and maybe if you've ended up sacrificing a lot more than you thought you would) would give me a much better idea of what to expect and ultimately bring me to a decision. I've already read the "Would you do med school all over again" thread from a few yrs back, and that was insightful, somewhat depressing, and confusing all at the same time. Of course, I know asking for others' opinions could potentially get me even more confused, but I don't really know what else to do at this point. It def. doesn't help being extremely indecisive either..i'm going nuts! Maybe my last resort will be to find one of those super-reliable online personality tests that can undoubtedly tell me if this is/isn't the right thing for me Anyways, thanks in advance as I'd really appreciate any of your comments/advice.

I understand wanting some validation since this is a big decision, but only you can make that decision. If it is really something that you want to do...do it! I'm sure that you will find many, many people while you are pursuing this career that will advise you not to...many may say don't on one day because they may be going through a tough spell, but ask them another time and they will remember why they decided to pursue this. What I'm trying to say is, don't base your decisions on others experiences, but make your own choices.

 

[Wanna_B_Scutty]

So I thought getting a glimpse into some other ppl's experiences(maybe at how you all arrived at a decision if you were in my shoes and maybe if you've ended up sacrificing a lot more than you thought you would) would give me a much better idea of what to expect and ultimately bring me to a decision.

A luck would have it, OP, SDN has a very prolific blogger named "Panda Bear" whose story is similar to yours. PB was also a non-trad, also an engineer, and also decided to go to med school. Many of your concerns are reflected in his blog.

May I suggest you give it a good read? I personally recommend starting from the oldest posts and reading chronologically. It can be found here:
http://www.pandabearmd.blogspot.com/

Good luck!

 

[Tired Pigeon]

Yes, there are sacrifices, but this is true with any serious pursuit. I think the question to ask yourself is whether you feel you'd be happy doing anything else besides medicine. If the answer is yes, pursue that. If the answer is no, welcome!

 

[8744]

Hey guys, I'm a nontrad(have already taken post-bacc classes and MCAT) that's thinking about applying to med school this yr, am currently having some serious doubts, and was hoping for some input since you all are in med school. Please bear with me:

I worked as an elec. engineer for a little bit after college...I'm a couple of years out of college now and still feel like I'm not getting anywhere with certain decisions that I need to make. My engr'ing job, compared to other ones in the industry, was pretty cool, but after some serious thinking, I decided to pursue medicine. As much optimism as I have towards becoming a doctor, I feel like many of my other interests are going to be sacrificed- I just know to what degree. Some of the interests I hope to keep around are pretty commonplace... like going to the gym, being able to play w/ a band on wknds,..normal right?..but I don' t know, it just seems like the few medical students I've talked to say life is hell and that I should have kept my engr'ing job. I try to take their responses as lightly as possible b/c I feel everyone, no matter what situation they're in, tends to see the grass greener on the other side. However, I'm still scared that some of their exaggerations may actually be true and that maybe I'm not cut out for the profession on some levels. I've given a lot of thought about going to medical school and have developed strong interests in several of the specialties, but I don't want to fool myself on how much I'll have to sacrifice. It's always a catch though, since the only way to find out is to actually experience it, and I feel not going through with it will always make me wonder. So I thought getting a glimpse into some other ppl's experiences(maybe at how you all arrived at a decision if you were in my shoes and maybe if you've ended up sacrificing a lot more than you thought you would) would give me a much better idea of what to expect and ultimately bring me to a decision. I've already read the "Would you do med school all over again" thread from a few yrs back, and that was insightful, somewhat depressing, and confusing all at the same time. Of course, I know asking for others' opinions could potentially get me even more confused, but I don't really know what else to do at this point. It def. doesn't help being extremely indecisive either..i'm going nuts! Maybe my last resort will be to find one of those super-reliable online personality tests that can undoubtedly tell me if this is/isn't the right thing for me Anyways, thanks in advance as I'd really appreciate any of your comments/advice.

If you got an electrical engineering degree, then you are cut out for medical school. It's hard, but not that hard. The only part of it that really blows hard is third year.

However, when you are a resident you will not have time to play in a band on the weekend, work out, or have a "normal" life, at least not how you conceive of having a normal life today.

If you like your job, why on earth would you even think of switching? I like being a doctor (and Emergency Medicine is a pretty decent specialty) but looking back, it hasn't really been worth the sacrifice, the poverty, and the long, long hours. I'll feel different once I finish residency but I still have two years to go and until I make my first paycheck, we are financially ruined without the proverbial pot to piss in.

Sure, I see the light at the end of the tunnel but you can't dismiss the eight years it will have taken. That's like the car salesman telling you, "Come on, it's only a thousand bucks."

"Yeah, mother****er, but it's my thousand bucks."

 

[8744]

Yes, there are sacrifices, but this is true with any serious pursuit. I think the question to ask yourself is whether you feel you'd be happy doing anything else besides medicine. If the answer is yes, pursue that. If the answer is no, welcome!

I don't buy this. I understand that people become obsessed with the idea of being a doctor (you almost have to be obsessed to navigate the admission processs) but that's not a healthy way to select a career like medicine because The entry barriers are so high that once you get on board, it is difficult to get off if you don't like it.

 

[Arsenic]

moving from allo to the nontrad forum

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Yes, Panda's an articulate guy with a similar background as your own, but don't take everything he says as gospel. I've noticed that trend recently, and it's a little worrisome. He's just one guy with one perspective after all.

Anyway, about the life thing -- doctors do have some spare time and can have hobbies and do enjoyable things in life. Depending on the specialty, they have less spare time and less control over their time than other people, though -- again, though, this is very specialty dependent.

During the first two years, you'll have ample time to do whatever you want. If you treat studying like a 9 to 5 job, you should be able to do pretty well. During the 3rd and 4th years, it really depends on what rotation you're on. My understanding is that most people arrange their 4th year so that they have lots of easier rotations and lots of spare time. Internship is supposed to suck and cut into all your spare time, but it gets better after that in lots of specialties. After that, again, it depends on what you're doing.

In the end, if having a life is important to you, you can still be a doctor. Just avoid fields like surgery.

 

[8744]

...Yes, Panda's an articulate guy with a similar background as your own, but don't take everything he says as gospel. I've noticed that trend recently, and it's a little worrisome. He's just one guy with one perspective after all...

I'm forming a cult.

Listen, all I do is comment on the conventional wisdom and give people an idea of what medical training is really like. If you can find anything on my blog that isn't true I'll gladly correct it.

 

[NonTradMed]

Yes, Panda's an articulate guy with a similar background as your own, but don't take everything he says as gospel. I've noticed that trend recently, and it's a little worrisome. He's just one guy with one perspective after all.

Anyway, about the life thing -- doctors do have some spare time and can have hobbies and do enjoyable things in life. Depending on the specialty, they have less spare time and less control over their time than other people, though -- again, though, this is very specialty dependent.

During the first two years, you'll have ample time to do whatever you want. If you treat studying like a 9 to 5 job, you should be able to do pretty well. During the 3rd and 4th years, it really depends on what rotation you're on. My understanding is that most people arrange their 4th year so that they have lots of easier rotations and lots of spare time. Internship is supposed to suck and cut into all your spare time, but it gets better after that in lots of specialties. After that, again, it depends on what you're doing.

In the end, if having a life is important to you, you can still be a doctor. Just avoid fields like surgery.

Yeah, I agree. Being a doctor is a demanding job, but you'll still have time for stuff. Try shadowing a few doctors, speaking with doctors. I did that (got lucky since my parents knew doctors) and most were Type A personality gunner types but they also had time to have fun like going out on weekends etc. Still, there are others on this board who had similar experience and you should look up their situation and see what it's like from a perspective of someone who is going through the process right now.

I'll bite and give you a bit of info on me:

I am a engineer turned med student, a kind of a nontrad, although a bit different than you. I was premed in college, but also computer science. Then I got burned out from school, took a job and was making decent amount for a college graduate ($50+ back in 2002). I was a programmer for an IT firm and it was a decent enough job. However, I was already regretting my choice for not doing medicine and about a year into my job, I decided to try for med school. Now, my story diverges from most nontrad's in that I had all my premed coursework in, and I had even taken the MCAT (expired) and I had no family and little debt to tie me down.

I struck a deal with myself: my biggest headache was chemistry and orgo. It was what drove me to not do medicine initially. I figured if I can study for my MCAT and commit to reviewing all the classes including chemistry and organic, then I would try for med school. The MCAT wasn't just a test for med school, it became a litmus test to see if I was devoted to the career of medicine or if it was just a passing fancy.

I passed with flying colors in that regard because I become somewhat obsessed with med school and I felt like it would be a far better fit than programming (I sucked at it and I hated the job). I made a plan: when I was applying, what clinical experience to get and where, when and where to get my recommendations. I volunteered at a hospital and I scoured SDN for advice. I also made contact with my undergrad. They helped me with recommendations and advice. Your only out of school a couple of years, definitely give your school a call and see what resources they have available for their students. My school said half their recommendations were made to alumni applying for graduate school.

Somehow, I managed to trick a med school into accepting me.

Anyway, in your case, with a job and no premed coursework (I presume), you may want to hold back on diving in just yet. Why don't you start out with some evening classes (don't quit your day job yet) and see how much you can dedicate yourself. Please listen to what doctors have to say about their profession and keep in mind that that all jobs will have complaints, but try to also realize that doctors may have 'special complaints' that engineering professions don't suffer from---i.e on-call, unpredictable hours, malpractice etc. Shadow a lot of doctors.

If you still continually feel that this is something you can do, then try to make a game plan. You have any longstanding loans to pay off? What about family? Starting one can be very tricky, especially as a nontrad with plans to marry and have kids.

No one can say if it's worth it for you or not. As PandaBear has said, med school has a high barrier to entry so there's no turning back. It's not like accounting or nursing where you can still change careers if you found it unsatisfactory. Your MD degree is a 'golden handcuff', you'll stuck with it for years.

But start out slow. Focus on the academics and see if your interest in medicine wanes while studying for organic or for the MCAT.

The med school years can be easy or hard depending on who you talk to. Some people think it's a 9-5 job, others (me) thinks it's more like a 70 hour/wk job (and I'm not even trying for honors). Your mileage may vary. Rotations 3rd year sucks for everyone. And residency will definitely suck. The thing is, you have to realize that you'll be back to school fulltime, with no way to support yourself, you have to ask yourself: can you live a student for four years? Residency you will get an income, but you'll be worked like a dog. It's a long road. Discuss with family, med student, and docs. Everyone's experience is different but their advice is good stuff you should listen to before diving in.

I'm forming a cult.

Listen, all I do is comment on the conventional wisdom and give people an idea of what medical training is really like. If you can find anything on my blog that isn't true I'll gladly correct it.

I have been meaning to mention this but I guess now is as good of a place as any. I'm an MS1 and I find my experiences in my first year diverges wildly from yours. You and some others on this board found the first two years very easy, hardly comparably to working. I find it the exact opposite. My job wasn't extremely demanding and we had to pull 70+ hours during certain parts of the rev cycle, but for the most part, I had evenings and weekends free. But in med school, I find that I regularly pull long hours studying, and I'm not doing all that great in school. Maybe add that people's experience first two years may vary. For me, working was far easier than med school in terms of hours worked and the fact that I didn't have to bring my work home like I do with school. Just a little mention you may want to add to your blog regarding the first two years.

 

[beanbean]

I also made the switch from engineering to medicine and am graduating med school this year into EM residency. Perhaps I'll feel differently after starting residency, but at this point I have not once regretted my decision. I have been able to balance med school and my family (husband and 3 kids) for the most part successfully. Residency will definitely be a new challenge!

As in any job, there are people who are happy and people who are not. To pursue medicine is a decision only you can make. As Panda indicated the tough thing about medicine is once you get to the point where you really find out if you like it, you are already so far into the process and debt it is hard to back away. It is healthy that you have these concerns and really want ot make sure this is the right path for you. Too many people set their goal as medical school and focus solely on obtaining that goal without seriously considering all the options life has to offer.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I'm forming a cult.

Listen, all I do is comment on the conventional wisdom and give people an idea of what medical training is really like. If you can find anything on my blog that isn't true I'll gladly correct it.

Surely your ego is not so big that you think your advice is or can be universally applicable to all people.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

OP: So, do you like your job or not? You said that it was "pretty cool" and it's not really apparent from your post WHY you want to pursue medicine as a career. You owe it to yourself, at least, to have a really good answer to this question, as, like others have said, the time that you need to invest in this whole process is enormous. Put another way, if you like your engineering job/career, why do you want to mess with that? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[radi0headfan]

I first want to say a sincere thanks again to all of you who took the time to read and respond back. Here comes my reply:

If you like your job, why on earth would you even think of switching? I like being a doctor (and Emergency Medicine is a pretty decent specialty) but looking back, it hasn't really been worth the sacrifice, the poverty, and the long, long hours. I'll feel different once I finish residency but I still have two years to go and until I make my first paycheck, we are financially ruined without the proverbial pot to piss in.

So a little bit more on my story... I quit this job in the middle of last year and I've been done with the prereqs and have also taken the MCAT. Right now I'm teaching the MCAT science sections for kaplan and doing volunteer research in a neuroscience lab. Thing is, I guess I'm just starting to doubt things maybe because as the reality of me going to medical school approaches, fear seems to kick in. I'm scared by a lot of the things I've heard, some remarks being very similar to what you said about how it isn't worth it.

And it's definitely not just Panda Bear- if so may people that were so amped up about this profession feel like it wasn't worth it at some point in the whole process, I don't know if that's just a lot of people complaining or a lot of people that didn't know what they got themselves into. I'm really hoping it's the former and have seen a trend how ppl do always look at other's situations and say...."man my job/life sucks compared to theirs." Even though I've tried to stay resilient to many ppl's opinions, it's still hard to look inside myself and say that I won't feel the same way either. When I look back someday, maybe I'll feel the same way Panda Bear does, maybe I won't.

But from what I've taken out from all your responses, I really got myself into this whole mess in my head from taking too much consideration of other people's experiences and opinions. And assembling all that data into one clear goal for myself is just impossible. Asking myself what I want is not easy either, because take for example the engr'ing job....I was working maybe 35-40 hrs/wk, flex time, $ was good, I could fix my car if I needed to, get recording equipment if i wanted to...all kinds of freedom. But for the time I was at work, it wasn't overly draining or anything, it's mainly that I didn't care about what I was doing. I didn't care about the product or the business behind the product...the only thing at work I actually did seem to care about was interacting with the customers. But what I cared about most was my life outside of work and also my colleagues were real cool to hang out with both on and off the job. Maybe that's as good as it gets and I shouldn't have walked away..but now take the job of a doctor....after spending a decent amount of time volunteering, I know I'd be much happier with the work I'd be doing, and I know I'd also like to come back and teach. But with medicine, that seems to be the smallest part of the puzzle these days. That "light at the end of the tunnel" seems to burn out faster and faster as I talk to more and more people. The hope that remains in their advice is that the happiness you gain from treating your patients makes up for all of the annoying stuff that needs to be done. But as nontradmed said, any one notion could be completely wrong when applied to any particular person, and like most of you stated in one way or another, I'll have to ultimately make the choice. And for me to ever do that, as Panda Bear, bean bean, nontradmed, and a few others said... I'll have to just experience everything for myself to completely realize what's it's all about. The worst that could happen is that I decide I don't want to go through with becoming a doctor while in medical school. That'd suck, but hey, it's not the end of the world right? I figure no one's resolve to decide on medicine is perfect, and I guess I just be need to be happy w/ the decisions I make and do my best to never look back.

 

[radi0headfan]

OP: So, do you like your job or not? You said that it was "pretty cool" and it's not really apparent from your post WHY you want to pursue medicine as a career. You owe it to yourself, at least, to have a really good answer to this question, as, like others have said, the time that you need to invest in this whole process is enormous. Put another way, if you like your engineering job/career, why do you want to mess with that? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I took a look at your MDapplicants page and couldn't help to see that you were also an engineer once. If you wouldn't mind sharing, what is the primary factor that made you make the switch? You brought up a good point of not messing with something if you already like it, and maybe I should have done that for a few more years before making this decision, but at the time I felt that I'd migrate towards medicine at some point in my life and thought I'd rather work towards it now than later.

 

[silas2642]

Okay, well I can't really offer you too much advice since I'm a med student and not a doctor. But one thing to consider is that you are are asking the advice of STUDENTS-- remember that med school is four years, and that this part of your life is short in comparison with the rest of your career. We've only begun our journey, and we can't say definitely whether or not this was all truly worth it or not just yet.

I was reading the blog of my hero, "The Fake Doctor," whose fan had a similar dilemma as you. He answered it pretty well.

"Q:So, I am 28, and all of a sudden I got the urge to go to medical school. I am a computer programmer, and I think that I'd be much better as a doctor. Do you think that 28 is too old? I found your blog when I googled medical school. I'd like to hear your opinion.
-M.

I have a few answers to this, and I'll let you decide which one you prefer to take:
1) There is an adage that says "It's never too late to start something new", and that advice applies to medical school as much as anything. That said, you better be damn sure this is what you want. Lets ignore all of the other commitments you're signing up for and do the simple math first (assuming you haven't done any premed requirements yet):
Doing a post-bacc: 1.5 years
Medical School: 4 years
Residency: 3 years (minimum)
So that's at least 8.5 years, which is an optimistic assessment, meaning you're going to be 36 or so before you are even finished with your training. Now, for many people, including a fair number of classmates of mine who are as old or older (the oldest in my class was 37 years old when she started) than you, that is not too big of a deal. Personally, I'd be frightened by the prospect of not even being finished with training by the time I am approaching 40, but that is just me. So you have to just be honest with yourself and decide whether you really want it, and if so, then go for it.
2) If you start medical school at 28, that means you will not be able to wear your long white coat/chick magnet until you are at least 32, which seems like wayyyy too long for me.
3) Wait, you want to drop computer programming to go to…medical school?!? Having recently visited the Google campus, I strongly suggest you send them your resume and do the same before making this decision. Christ"

I guess that the important thing to highlight here is whether or not you think you're going to be too old to wear your chick magnet long white coat. The less important thing that needs to be considered is whether or not you really want to do this and if you are making an educated decision. Have you shadowed enough physicians? Have you talked doctors and asked them their opinions on the future of medicine? What is driving you into medicine at this particular point in your life (sorry, I didn't read the entire thread because I'm ADD and haven't taken my meds yet as it is only 7:30 here on the east coast).

Good luck with your decision. Also, keep in mind that if you are accepted next year, you can defer med school for another year to sit on this decision a little longer.

 

[8744]

Surely your ego is not so big that you think your advice is or can be universally applicable to all people.

I just lead the horses to water....

 

[oldpro]

Hey guys, I'm a nontrad(have already taken post-bacc classes and MCAT) thinking about applying to med school I decided to pursue medicine. As much optimism as I have towards becoming a doctor, I feel like many of my other interests are going to be sacrificed- I just know to what degree. Some of the interests I hope to keep around are pretty commonplace... like going to the gym, being able to play w/ a band on wknds,..normal right?..but I don' t know, it just seems like the few medical students I've talked to say life is hell and that I should have kept my engr'ing job. I try to take their responses as lightly as possible b/c I feel everyone, no matter what situation they're in, tends to see the grass greener on the other side. However, I'm still scared that some of their exaggerations may actually be true and that maybe I'm not cut out for the profession on some levels. I've given a lot of thought about going to medical school and have developed strong interests in several of the specialties, but I don't want to fool myself on how much I'll have to sacrifice. It's always a catch though, since the only way to find out is to actually experience it, and I feel not going through with it will always make me wonder. So I thought getting a glimpse into some other ppl's experiences(maybe at how you all arrived at a decision if you were in my shoes and maybe if you've ended up sacrificing a lot more than you thought you would) would give me a much better idea of what to expect and ultimately bring me to a decision. I've already read the "Would you do med school all over again" thread from a few yrs back, and that was insightful, somewhat depressing, and confusing all at the same time. Of course, I know asking for others' opinions could potentially get me even more confused, but I don't really know what else to do at this point. It def. doesn't help being extremely indecisive either..i'm going nuts! Maybe my last resort will be to find one of those super-reliable online personality tests that can undoubtedly tell me if this is/isn't the right thing for me Anyways, thanks in advance as I'd really appreciate any of your comments/advice.

Welcome:

Is medschool hell? Well not really, it tests you and your ability to be dedicated to the profession to learning what you need to to take care of people, I once read where a premed said "You are already a Doctor when accepted into medical school" For those of us in Medical school that is the biggest joke ever, Medical school is the begining of the structure that will one day be you a Doctor, but not on day one or 500, but years down the road.

SHould you do this? Only you can know if you have the drive to.

WOuld I do it again? Hell I should have done it sooner, no regrets what so ever.

Being scared sure theres still a lot ahead, once in medschool you have to pass, then the USMLE all 3 steps, get a residency you want and make a decent living.

Being a doctor is hard work if it wasn't then more would do it, right?

 

[oldpro]

I don't buy this. I understand that people become obsessed with the idea of being a doctor (you almost have to be obsessed to navigate the admission processs) but that's not a healthy way to select a career like medicine because The entry barriers are so high that once you get on board, it is difficult to get off if you don't like it.

Yeah I agree with this in one way but in another the profession does not need more people who are only "In it for money" and "For prestige" they are the ones who become bitter and feel they are "Trapped in Hell" I think to excel one has to love what they do, look around you at the best doctors, do they look like they despise medicine?

Getting in does not make you a doctor and does not mean you should be one, it's just the door opening to opportunity.

 

[viostorm]

I'm a MS2 formerly computer science, somedays medicine sucks and some days it doesn't.

I was happier in my old job then I am now. But, life isn't always about being happy, sometimes its about doing something important ... and although med school sucks ... at the end of this hellacious process I will know how to help people ...

 

[LifetimeDoc]

I'm forming a cult.

Listen, all I do is comment on the conventional wisdom and give people an idea of what medical training is really like. If you can find anything on my blog that isn't true I'll gladly correct it.

We all get the point Panda Bear™: med school sucks, internship really sucks, residency sucks. But, the amount of "suckage" depends upon your perspective, motivations, and desires for your life's work. I thrive on "suckage", difficult situations, long hours, etc. I know that medicine is a calling for me, and being in a similar situation as the OP and many others, including Panda Bear™, I understand that leaving a lucrative/safe career to move into another can be scary and seem foolish at times.

I left a cushy job at a pharmaceutical company to start my own business with my brother because it was something I wanted to do. I came back to pursue medicine because I wanted to and because I found out it was never to late to do this and left my business (which is still running btw). I'm scared as hell about going into medicine, as everyone should be at least a little bit, because I know what challenges lay ahead. (And many because of reading Panda Bear's™ blog and many others). But, I don't let others discourage me if I feel that I have the capability and desire to make it through to be a part of medicine, whether medicine continues to decline or improve. I want to influence medicine because it's broken in the USA, and because it is such an important part of influencing and helping others' lives.

Just make sure that you are informed from as many sources as possible, definitely consult your loved ones, look at what you want your future to be and go with your own decision in the end.

 

[Think Big]

OP, I'm starting med school next year, but through my past work and experiences I have spent A LOT of time around current and prospective med students. One thing that I have noticed is that the vast majority of them go to med school straight out of undergrad. A few will go directly into a special masters or a post-bac and then on to med school. My point is that many, many medical students have never held a full-time job any longer then a summer. One kid at my interview asked me what a job interview was like . They've never had to be somewhere from 8 to 5 every day, and they've never had to pull long hours, or work weekends when proposals were due, or had to pass up a long weekend at the beach with friends because they were out of vacation time. If you have no idea what it's like to do the same job, full time, for a couple of years instead of a couple of months, how can you possibly know what jobs will suit you enough to make an educated choice about your career?

I think that it's insane to make the decision to go to med school without ever entering the workforce, but tons of people do it every year. And I think that's a big factor in med students hating school/residency and doctors hating their jobs. And by the time you get your "first job" you've invested way too much time and money into your training to choose another career path. I think that as non-trads we've got a bit of an advantage. Most of us have worked at a couple of different jobs and gotten a really good feel for what our on-the-job strengths and weaknesses are. Most of us have already balanced classwork/MCAT studying with work and family and realize that while it's tough, it's far from impossible. We also already realize that in any field, there will be fairly easy times and times where you work like hell. And finally, we realize that there are jobs out there that are EASY. Easy hours, easy tasks, no real responsibility, no real challenge, and decent pay. And we have held those jobs. And we hate them because they are boring as hell.

So OP, if being a doctor is what you want, have faith in your decision! There are a lot of folks who will dissuade you but, honestly, most of the non-trads I know personally have never looked back.

 

[8744]

We all get the point Panda Bear™: med school sucks, internship really sucks, residency sucks. But, the amount of "suckage" depends upon your perspective, motivations, and desires for your life's work. I thrive on "suckage", difficult situations, long hours, etc. I know that medicine is a calling for me, and being in a similar situation as the OP and many others, including Panda Bear™, I understand that leaving a lucrative/safe career to move into another can be scary and seem foolish at times.

I left a cushy job at a pharmaceutical company to start my own business with my brother because it was something I wanted to do. I came back to pursue medicine because I wanted to and because I found out it was never to late to do this and left my business (which is still running btw). I'm scared as hell about going into medicine, as everyone should be at least a little bit, because I know what challenges lay ahead. (And many because of reading Panda Bear's™ blog and many others). But, I don't let others discourage me if I feel that I have the capability and desire to make it through to be a part of medicine, whether medicine continues to decline or improve. I want to influence medicine because it's broken in the USA, and because it is such an important part of influencing and helping others' lives.

Just make sure that you are informed from as many sources as possible, definitely consult your loved ones, look at what you want your future to be and go with your own decision in the end.

I think you guys are trying to get too metaphysically jiggy wit' it. And you're reading too much into my blog. Residency training sucks but it it only sucks because the hours are terrible and the pay is...well...at the risk of calling down the ire of those whose instinct is to form a protective cordon around The Man...the pay is insulting for the level of work you'll be doing.

Deeply and gravely insulting. A joke. We had a series of threads where I was brow-beaten into finally admitting that we do, in fact, make slightly more per hour than the nice young man assembling my Gorditos at Taco Bell (so there)...but not that much more.

Why this is so hard for otherwise intelligent people to understand is beyond me? Bad hours. Bad pay. That's pretty much it. All the rest of it is meaningless. If the hours and pay were better it would be a decent job.

 

[Nasrudin]

I think you guys are trying to get too metaphysically jiggy wit' it. And you're reading too much into my blog. Residency training sucks but it it only sucks because the hours are terrible and the pay is...well...at the risk of calling down the ire of those whose instinct is to form a protective cordon around The Man...the pay is insulting for the level of work you'll be doing.

Deeply and gravely insulting. A joke. We had a series of threads where I was brow-beaten into finally admitting that we do, in fact, make slightly more per hour than the nice young man assembling my Gorditos at Taco Bell (so there)...but not that much more.

Why this is so hard for otherwise intelligent people to understand is beyond me? Bad hours. Bad pay. That's pretty much it. All the rest of it is meaningless. If the hours and pay were better it would be a decent job.

Ok. Utilizing your last point. After two years you should be able to pull about 150 to 200 g's right? So according to my precise calcumulations....you should surpass your engineering self in about ten years with all your debts paid. and by that time your kids will be calling you from college for cash and you will have no trouble dishing it out while you and the mrs. enjoy a nice life back in the bayou country. what's all the lament about. Your paying your dues to sing blues man, well its a little less cool than singing the blues but it pays better.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

I took a look at your MDapplicants page and couldn't help to see that you were also an engineer once. If you wouldn't mind sharing, what is the primary factor that made you make the switch? You brought up a good point of not messing with something if you already like it, and maybe I should have done that for a few more years before making this decision, but at the time I felt that I'd migrate towards medicine at some point in my life and thought I'd rather work towards it now than later.

Hey, yeah, because I had to defer my admission to Medical School a year, I am still technically an engineer, but my days as an engineer are numbered -- right now, I am an engineer in job title only (i.e. not in spirit.)

I decided to pursue medicine for three primary reasons: 1) I always wanted to be a doctor, since I was a child -- I only became an engineer because I "sold out" (though I will admit, my career as an engineer has been very lucrative.) 2) I have come to hate engineering, and pretty much dread going to work everyday. I made a recent post in another thread that pretty much summarizes what I hate about engineering:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=374049

My response is post #33, but the entire thread might interest you.

3) I truly believe that medicine fixes many of the things that I don't like about my current job/career. While, from my observation (shadowing, clinical volunteering, questioning doctors, etc) I believe that medicine, as a career, has some unique problems, as a whole, I think I will really like the day-to-day job of a doctor -- much more so than my current day-to-day job.

Best of luck to you. I think people around here tend to be overly negative about the future of medicine and the medical profession, so my advice to you is to do your own research, talk to as many "real people" (i.e. not just screen names on SDN) as possible about this (i.e. doctors in the specialties in which you are interested.) It's a long haul and you will pay your dues in terms of putting up with the archaic hazing that goes on as part of your clinical medical education and the essentially slave labor that you will be doing as a resident, but if it is what you really want to do, it will be worth it. Also, in terms of compensation, medicine is a pretty good gig. Most specialties pay, on average, in the 200k+ range after a few years of experience, whereas engineering (at least in my field) pretty much tops out at 150k (I'm not even at that level after 11 years of experience) so overall, medicine is still a pretty good gig. I believe that someone with good business sense, who chooses the right specialty (but one that they LIKE) can make significantly more than that. Someone will probably jump in and say that I am stupid and don't realize that physician salaries are constantly declining, and the same year that the polar ice caps melt and the polar bears go extinct because of global warming, physician salaries are projected to decline to $0, but the truth is that the profession is in a state of major flux, and no one really knows where it is going.

 

[Noeljan]

I think you guys are trying to get too metaphysically jiggy wit' it. And you're reading too much into my blog. Residency training sucks but it it only sucks because the hours are terrible and the pay is...well...at the risk of calling down the ire of those whose instinct is to form a protective cordon around The Man...the pay is insulting for the level of work you'll be doing.

Deeply and gravely insulting. A joke. We had a series of threads where I was brow-beaten into finally admitting that we do, in fact, make slightly more per hour than the nice young man assembling my Gorditos at Taco Bell (so there)...but not that much more.

Why this is so hard for otherwise intelligent people to understand is beyond me? Bad hours. Bad pay. That's pretty much it. All the rest of it is meaningless. If the hours and pay were better it would be a decent job.

I think Panda actually can provide more insight than others, because he does have more insight. He already went through applying, then medical school, then internship, etc. you get the point. Obviously his eyes will be more open than someone who has not yet been in those shoes. I am not saying it's totally right or wrong, but it is what it is.
Now, can't we all just get along

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I think Panda actually can provide more insight than others, because he does have more insight. He already went through applying, then medical school, then internship, etc. you get the point. Obviously his eyes will be more open than someone who has not yet been in those shoes. I am not saying it's totally right or wrong, but it is what it is.
Now, can't we all just get along

Sure, no one's saying ignore what he has to say. However, he's just one guy who went through those things. We might experience them differently. No one person's advice is infallible. So, what I'm saying is don't make any decisions based on Panda's blog. Don't make any decisions based on what we tell you here, either.

 

[radi0headfan]

Hey, yeah, because I had to defer my admission to Medical School a year, I am still technically an engineer, but my days as an engineer are numbered -- right now, I am an engineer in job title only (i.e. not in spirit.)

I decided to pursue medicine for three primary reasons: 1) I always wanted to be a doctor, since I was a child -- I only became an engineer because I "sold out" (though I will admit, my career as an engineer has been very lucrative.) 2) I have come to hate engineering, and pretty much dread going to work everyday. I made a recent post in another thread that pretty much summarizes what I hate about engineering:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=374049

My response is post #33, but the entire thread might interest you.

3) I truly believe that medicine fixes many of the things that I don't like about my current job/career. While, from my observation (shadowing, clinical volunteering, questioning doctors, etc) I believe that medicine, as a career, has some unique problems, as a whole, I think I will really like the day-to-day job of a doctor -- much more so than my current day-to-day job.

Best of luck to you. I think people around here tend to be overly negative about the future of medicine and the medical profession, so my advice to you is to do your own research, talk to as many "real people" (i.e. not just screen names on SDN) as possible about this (i.e. doctors in the specialties in which you are interested.) It's a long haul and you will pay your dues in terms of putting up with the archaic hazing that goes on as part of your clinical medical education and the essentially slave labor that you will be doing as a resident, but if it is what you really want to do, it will be worth it. Also, in terms of compensation, medicine is a pretty good gig. Most specialties pay, on average, in the 200k+ range after a few years of experience, whereas engineering (at least in my field) pretty much tops out at 150k (I'm not even at that level after 11 years of experience) so overall, medicine is still a pretty good gig. I believe that someone with good business sense, who chooses the right specialty (but one that they LIKE) can make significantly more than that. Someone will probably jump in and say that I am stupid and don't realize that physician salaries are constantly declining, and the same year that the polar ice caps melt and the polar bears go extinct because of global warming, physician salaries are projected to decline to $0, but the truth is that the profession is in a state of major flux, and no one really knows where it is going.

I think I felt somewhat the same way going to work as you did. I never dreaded the nice environment, just more having to do the work. It was somewhat boring, but my disgust was more a result of my apathy towards the job. I feel like I would have eventually become like this towards engineering even if I gave it a fairer chance. But unlike you, I never got deep enough into the field to experience all the games you talked about in the other post, and I definitely don't doubt they exist. That being said, I feel that the medical field can be just as unethical as the engineering/business industries, but I think doctors have a little more personal control over this aspect of the job than people in other fields. I remember there was a time I actually enjoyed engineering, and that time was the schooling I had in college...when I got to the real world, I didn't enjoy many aspects of my job. After getting an internship my senior yr of college, I knew that it wasn't gonna be something I wanted to do long-term. But at the same time, at a younger age, maybe I was just looking for more ideality in life when it just doesn't exist. Now a little older and looking back, I know after sitting in my cube for a day or so, those feelings of wanting to get out would come back despite the peachy life I had off the job.

The prospect of medicine opposed to engineering or vice versa is not what's running through my head, but more the life I may lose to medicine. I have other interests I feel cannot be put on hold for medical school, especially because those things will probably never come off of hold when I'm done with it. One of those things involves becoming a singer/songwriter for a year or two of my life...or maybe more if it takes me further. I'm not even worried about "failing" or "succeeding", just having the chance to do that would be greatly satisfying. My sister will probably be attending a music school in my area sometime next year and that'd be cool to actually have a chance to collaborate with her instead of going off to medical school immediately. There's only some things you can do when you're young and I don't want to miss out on the opportunity. I'm 100% positive that I'd enjoy being a doctor someday, but I also know I'd enjoy being several other things first. I think I've realized that I want to have the time to try those things out since medical school's not going anywhere. I'm 22 going on 23 and looking at the experiences from some of you nontrads, you all led a pretty full life before getting into medicine. I still feel like I'm one foot in college since I didn't work for TOO long afterwards. Maybe slowing things down even more is what'll actually make me happy with the switch.

Thanks again for all your replies! Reading your comments and learning about your experiences have been nothing short of helpful.

 

[8744]

Ok. Utilizing your last point. After two years you should be able to pull about 150 to 200 g's right? So according to my precise calcumulations....you should surpass your engineering self in about ten years with all your debts paid. and by that time your kids will be calling you from college for cash and you will have no trouble dishing it out while you and the mrs. enjoy a nice life back in the bayou country. what's all the lament about. Your paying your dues to sing blues man, well its a little less cool than singing the blues but it pays better.

See, that's the point people don't understand. Sure, I'll do all right later on but it will be 18 years, total, before I "catch up" of which I have already done six of the worst. You can't just put those six years in a little box and say, "Okay, these don't count." It has been six years of poverty and things haven't even got as bad as they possibly can because I still have two years and none of my expenses are likely to decrease in that time.

That's the attitude about residency training that I find so repulsive and why they shouldn't let people with no work experience go to medical school. Nobody cold possibly deny that residents are underpaid, at least considering that they pay mid-levels fresh out of their training twice what we make and they work half as many hours and have a tenth of the responsibility. The fact that we'll "make it big" eventually should have nothing to do with our pay now. I started at a certain salary as an engineer but it didn't double or triple after a certain arbitrary period of hazing and overwork.

Things just don't work like that. An engineering firm that paid it's junior engineers a fifth of what they paid their senior guys while paying their draftsmen three times what the junior engineers could hope to make except after working for four years would have a hard time finding employees in the free market. Nobody would work for those wages unless he were an indentured servant which we are, in many ways, as residents.

I guarantee if you offered any rational person the choice between a decent job now or a better job eigtheen years in the future they'd probably pick the decent job now. Most pre-meds have never worked and aren't trained for anything so they don't see the opportunity cost.

Besides, anybody in almost any professional career who put as much time into it as we put into residency would probably do very well, and no matter how hard he worked he would still sleep every night.

 

[Nasrudin]

I guarantee if you offered any rational person the choice between a decent job now or a better job eigtheen years in the future they'd probably pick the decent job now. Most pre-meds have never worked and aren't trained for anything so they don't see the opportunity cost.

Besides, anybody in almost any professional career who put as much time into it as we put into residency would probably do very well, and no matter how hard he worked he would still sleep every night.[/QUOTE]

Well certainly residents are grossly underpaid. But I wonder why premeds are your target audience. There's nothing we can do to change it. And honestly whosoever is so weak-minded among us to let others make up our minds over what to do with our lives...let me know, because I live a couple of blocks from the Golden Gate Bridge and they could take it off my hands real cheap. Not that I don't think realism is useful. It just doesn't make sense to preach the horrors of war to to a group of mostly young bushy-tailed recruits. And the rest of us...who have been around the block once or twice...well lets just say if I don't listen to my mama what makes you think I'd listen to you. I read your blog for the color and the wisdom of the experience not for career advice.

Also I'd be curious for your speculation as to why residents get exploited. Is it partly because the paradigm was created with 23 year olds without families in mind? Is it because its really an apprenticeship where you're essentially completing your training? Is it because there is an oversupply of labor? Why haven't the residents ever organized themselves into unions to prevent being exploited?

 

[DrMidlife]

I'm very much in favor of setting expectations and heavy dosing of realism, particularly in the nontrad forum. That's a great service. It's one thing to be 21, pursuing a medical career with the intent of saving the world, riding on your parents' pride and joy, utterly delusional about what you're getting into, and unable to comprehend advice from those who know better.

It's a totally different thing to be over 25, if not over 35, with some world knowledge, used to disappointment, increasingly cynical, no family backup (monetary or otherwise), paying off undergrad debt if not a mortgage, had your heart broken a few times, etc. and delusional.

I don't need more reasons to want to be a doctor. I want the job, I've given up everything to pursue it, and I'm willing to suffer for a really long time to get it. The more horror stories I hear, the better I can prepare for the death march. Lack of sleep and feeling stupid scare me s***less. I want to know how much it's going to suck, and how to survive.

So bring on the "don't do it because XYZ sucks" threads. "XYZ sucks" is great information.

 

[Nasrudin]

I'm very much in favor of setting expectations and heavy dosing of realism, particularly in the nontrad forum. That's a great service. It's one thing to be 21, pursuing a medical career with the intent of saving the world, riding on your parents' pride and joy, utterly delusional about what you're getting into, and unable to comprehend advice from those who know better.

It's a totally different thing to be over 25, if not over 35, with some world knowledge, used to disappointment, increasingly cynical, no family backup (monetary or otherwise), paying off undergrad debt if not a mortgage, had your heart broken a few times, etc. and delusional.

I don't need more reasons to want to be a doctor. I want the job, I've given up everything to pursue it, and I'm willing to suffer for a really long time to get it. The more horror stories I hear, the better I can prepare for the death march. Lack of sleep and feeling stupid scare me s***less. I want to know how much it's going to suck, and how to survive.

So bring on the "don't do it because XYZ sucks" threads. "XYZ sucks" is great information.

Yeah. Obviously we'd probably sit at the same lunch table in the med school cafeteria. It's just...sometimes it gets kind of old hearing the same old foreboding advice of others who presume to know enough about you to give you career advice. None of us old or young, big or small, can dictate the necessities of another's destiny or course in life...unless they be a prophet or spiritual guide of some kind. Call me crazy as coot...but i'm not in the habit of seeking out spiritual advice on sdn.
I've heard enough from physicians who after leaving me with some "sagely" advice about avoiding the woes of a medical career, would leave me with step by step instructions about how to carry out some meneal and mindless patient care task....and then after the day is done and they ride off into the sunset having saved the day to go home to their nice house full of children....I would go home to my second job where i would clean up after a bunch of snobby rich san franciscans so that I could afford to put myself through school and then study all night to do it again. You catch my drift. So all the know-it-all world weary advisers of this community can kindly **** the f' up as far as I'm concerned.

They should smokem while they gottem and get busy doing what they want with their own lives. A bit of a rant I admit. But just because someone is safe at home plate and i haven't left the dugout doesn't mean i shouldn't go to bat. The advice offered should be if not be the advice asked should be atleast the advice needed--here's the rub...just because you've walked some miles down a certain path doesn't qualify you to direct the experience sought by others unless your knowledge extends into the unseen beyond the details of work and toil.

 

[menaniac]

OP, I'm starting med school next year, but through my past work and experiences I have spent A LOT of time around current and prospective med students. One thing that I have noticed is that the vast majority of them go to med school straight out of undergrad. A few will go directly into a special masters or a post-bac and then on to med school. My point is that many, many medical students have never held a full-time job any longer then a summer. One kid at my interview asked me what a job interview was like . They've never had to be somewhere from 8 to 5 every day, and they've never had to pull long hours, or work weekends when proposals were due, or had to pass up a long weekend at the beach with friends because they were out of vacation time. If you have no idea what it's like to do the same job, full time, for a couple of years instead of a couple of months, how can you possibly know what jobs will suit you enough to make an educated choice about your career?

I think that it's insane to make the decision to go to med school without ever entering the workforce, but tons of people do it every year. And I think that's a big factor in med students hating school/residency and doctors hating their jobs. And by the time you get your "first job" you've invested way too much time and money into your training to choose another career path. I think that as non-trads we've got a bit of an advantage. Most of us have worked at a couple of different jobs and gotten a really good feel for what our on-the-job strengths and weaknesses are. Most of us have already balanced classwork/MCAT studying with work and family and realize that while it's tough, it's far from impossible. We also already realize that in any field, there will be fairly easy times and times where you work like hell. And finally, we realize that there are jobs out there that are EASY. Easy hours, easy tasks, no real responsibility, no real challenge, and decent pay. And we have held those jobs. And we hate them because they are boring as hell.

So OP, if being a doctor is what you want, have faith in your decision! There are a lot of folks who will dissuade you but, honestly, most of the non-trads I know personally have never looked back.

Amen, sister!!! One of the best posts on this topic yet. I couldn't agree more!

 

[spicedmanna]

Why this is so hard for otherwise intelligent people to understand is beyond me? Bad hours. Bad pay. That's pretty much it. All the rest of it is meaningless. If the hours and pay were better it would be a decent job.

Panda Bear, I sometimes think you don't want to be a doctor, or at least you don't seem to have the heart for the path (at least currently) when I read your posts here on SDN. I think this thought because your posts, in general, seem to focus on the overwhelming negative aspects of the job. I notice that I tend to do just that when I don't have the heart, or have somehow lost the heart, for what I am doing. Of course there are things in any job that generally suck, but if I like what I am doing, I don't usually dwell on them excessively, or at least offer a more balanced perspective. I've had some pretty crappy hours/pay in other jobs, too, and while I had the urge to scream murder for the amount of work that I offered my employers, I often felt quelled by even the infrequent hint/taste of being able to do what I imagined I would love doing when I first thought of going into that field. I could, however, be misinterpreting your comments, and in reality, you could simply be taking on the devil's advocate role/persona in attempts to balance out all the overwhelming, and perhaps unbridled, optimism found in pre-meds. Anyway, that's my point of view, and I have no illusion of being right.

I also want to point out that I get a different sense of you when I read your blog, which is really eloquent and revealing. I think you are a good writer in general, and I appreciate your in-the-moment style.

In any case, I appreciate your view point and recognize that that's all it is.

 

[8744]

Panda Bear, I sometimes think you don't want to be a doctor, or at least you don't seem to have the heart for the path (at least currently) when I read your posts here on SDN. I think this thought because your posts, in general, seem to focus on the overwhelming negative aspects of the job. I notice that I tend to do just that when I don't have the heart, or have somehow lost the heart, for what I am doing. Of course there are things in any job that generally suck, but if I like what I am doing, I don't usually dwell on them excessively, or at least offer a more balanced perspective. I've had some pretty crappy hours/pay in other jobs, too, and while I had the urge to scream murder for the amount of work that I offered my employers, I often felt quelled by even the infrequent hint/taste of being able to do what I imagined I would love doing when I first thought of going into that field. I could, however, be misinterpreting your comments, and in reality, you could simply be taking on the devil's advocate role/persona in attempts to balance out all the overwhelming, and perhaps unbridled, optimism found in pre-meds. Anyway, that's my point of view, and I have no illusion of being right.

I also want to point out that I get a different sense of you when I read your blog, which is really eloquent and revealing. I think you are a good writer in general, and I appreciate your in-the-moment style.

In any case, I appreciate your view point and recognize that that's all it is.

Residency training, at least in most specialties, is a job whose aspects are overwhelmingly negative as it involves bad pay, long hours, no respect, and a system set up to institutionalize and justify abuse.

Also, you are the only employee of the hospital with no legal protections against any of it. Even the vaunted ACGME rules are just guidelines and not a contract with penalties for its breach. The carelessness with which residents are treated should make you guys just coming up angry.

Forgive me if I don't clap my hands and sing with joy.

 

[spicedmanna]

Residency training, at least in most specialties, is a job whose aspects are overwhelmingly negative as it involves bad pay, long hours, no respect, and a system set up to institutionalize and justify abuse.

Also, you are the only employee of the hospital with no legal protections against any of it. Even the vaunted ACGME rules are just guidelines and not a contract with penalties for its breach. The carelessness with which residents are treated should make you guys just coming up angry.

Forgive me if I don't clap my hands and sing with joy.

Hmm... Hey, thanks, for the perspective from the trenches, PB. I was somewhat aware of what you speak of, but deeply appreciate you for fleshing it out further as only someone who has experienced it can.

 

[8744]

The other thing is that this is the non-traditional forum. Most of you have more to lose and less to gain than some guy going straight through from high school to residency who, once he commits to a "pre-med" type major, is usually fit for nothing else but medical school. I don't mind being criticised and corrected but to challenge the basic premise of a web site like SDN (or my blog) that all aspects of medical training should be discussed makes me think that there are a lot of people (and I'm not talking about you) who would be pretty happy if those of us with criticisms of medical training would just shut up.

I just think that you guys need to know certain things. Forewarned is forearmed. I also want to give you guys the vocabulary to work against the current abusive system of medical training and not to arrive, five years hence, as the typical resident who knows he's being abused but cannot overcome the intellectual distortions of the system to express himself coherently.

 

[Nasrudin]

The other thing is that this is the non-traditional forum. Most of you have more to lose and less to gain than some guy going straight through from high school to residency who, once he commits to a "pre-med" type major, is usually fit for nothing else but medical school. I don't mind being criticised and corrected but to challenge the basic premise of a web site like SDN (or my blog) that all aspects of medical training should be discussed makes me think that there are a lot of people (and I'm not talking about you) who would be pretty happy if those of us with criticisms of medical training would just shut up.

I just think that you guys need to know certain things. Forewarned is forearmed. I also want to give you guys the vocabulary to work against the current abusive system of medical training and not to arrive, five years hence, as the typical resident who knows he's being abused but cannot overcome the intellectual distortions of the system to express himself coherently.

Fair enough. Your descriptive writing has always been highly appreciated. What is not appreciated, at least on my part, is the presumptive career advice dispensed in a matter of fact manner.

Honestly bro, Much of the humor of your posts and blog derives from the fact that you had little idea what you were getting into. Coupled with your other experiences this gave you a fresh, unique take on what was going on around you. And in some ways that makes for much more interesting material.

I could, however, do without all the egocentricity of a lot of the been there done that sensibility that gives many physicians a sense of entitlement to spew their opinions on some of us struggling to come up in the world. That's just pompous. But y'all don't recognize it as such because you think that because the rest of us haven't gone through the most difficult thing in your life that it's your world and we're just living in it.

I also refuse to let your innate charisma and popularity curb me into being one of your hero-worshipping groupies. Nor do I think your experience is any more than your experience.

That said you're providing a solid service. Although more so for the people who would probably not be happy as physicians in the first place.

 

[8744]

Fair enough. Your descriptive writing has always been highly appreciated. What is not appreciated, at least on my part, is the presumptive career advice dispensed in a matter of fact manner.

Honestly bro, Much of the humor of your posts and blog derives from the fact that you had little idea what you were getting into. Coupled with your other experiences this gave you a fresh, unique take on what was going on around you. And in some ways that makes for much more interesting material.

I could, however, do without all the egocentricity of a lot of the been there done that sensibility that gives many physicians a sense of entitlement to spew their opinions on some of us struggling to come up in the world. That's just pompous. But y'all don't recognize it as such because you think that because the rest of us haven't gone through the most difficult thing in your life that it's your world and we're just living in it.

I also refuse to let your innate charisma and popularity curb me into being one of your hero-worshipping groupies. Nor do I think your experience is any more than your experience.

That said you're providing a solid service. Although more so for the people who would probably not be happy as physicians in the first place.

Being a Marine was much more difficult. I'm sure you haven't gone through that.

Did I mention that I was starting a cult?

 

[Nasrudin]

Being a Marine was much more difficult. I'm sure you haven't gone through that.

Did I mention that I was starting a cult?

No i haven't. Perhaps you could reflect more about that than and stop thinking your life is so miserable then. Miserable cult leaders are not quite as effective.

You're in the right place though. Premeds will fill an @sslicking vacancy in about .02 seconds. Especially an oversanctimonious @ss with authentic street creds like yours. If you could rap about some of your bling and hardness you would go platinum tomorrow.

 

[Brickhouse]

you're a radiohead fan, I'm sure whatever you choose will be cool.

 

[Nasrudin]

Pandabear....one more thing.

One of the reasons i'm calling B.S. on you so hard is because when I first read your story i was taken by it. I was like here's a guy I can root for who came up the hard way and who's going to laugh his way through this process while all the other whiny little brats i see on a daily basis will be catching hell, Panda will be chilling.

You're kind of like my favorite band. Some real roots funk and blues. Who just came out with a house music album guest starring britney spears.

Somebody's gotta represent the working guy who nobody thought should be here but made it in this business. Someone who will carry through with the guts to be passionate about being a physician while so many of them are whining about lost wages and HMO's. You keep putting out this residency is miserable stuff and your gonna lose an original fan or two. But hey whatever. I'll do it myself. Who need's heros.

 

[8744]

No i haven't. Perhaps you could reflect more about that than and stop thinking your life is so miserable then. Miserable cult leaders are not quite as effective.

You're in the right place though. Premeds will fill an @sslicking vacancy in about .02 seconds. Especially an oversanctimonious @ss with authentic street creds like yours. If you could rap about some of your bling and hardness you would go platinum tomorrow.

I'm not sensing a lot of love.

 

[8744]

Pandabear....one more thing.

One of the reasons i'm calling B.S. on you so hard is because when I first read your story i was taken by it. I was like here's a guy I can root for who came up the hard way and who's going to laugh his way through this process while all the other whiny little brats i see on a daily basis will be catching hell, Panda will be chilling.

You're kind of like my favorite band. Some real roots funk and blues. Who just came out with a house music album guest starring britney spears.

Somebody's gotta represent the working guy who nobody thought should be here but made it in this business. Someone who will carry through with the guts to be passionate about being a physician while so many of them are whining about lost wages and HMO's. You keep putting out this residency is miserable stuff and your gonna lose an original fan or two. But hey whatever. I'll do it myself. Who need's heros.

Other than the obvious satire, I challenge you to find anything on my blog that is not true. There is no "BS" to call. If anything, I tend to underplay some of the more egregious abuses I have seen because a) I don't want to be seen to be piling on and b) you wouldn't believe me.

Now, if you want to represent the working guy, go right ahead. This is entirely besides the point. The OP asked a question, he was either looking to brag on himself or he really wanted an opinion. I gave him my opinion which is a good deal more "fleshed out" than yours as it pertains to medical school and residency trainings, two things that he is going to have to endure. So if I have to sing the Smurf Song to keep my many readers (almost 800 unique hits a day and climbing) then I'm going to lose some readers.

I'd venture to guess that most of my readers appreciate my true-to-life look at medical training from the perspective of a genuine resident and would abandon me in droves if my blog were just another information organ of The Man.

May I point you to Brother Hoover's excellent blog, Medschoolhell? He makes me look like the Vice-President of your local Pre-med club.

 

[Quix]

Nas-

As a necessary proviso, my experience has been very akin to PB's. I spent several years working in psych (specifically the psych ER and adult behavioral units), and what I've read in PB's blog echoed my own experiences (I'm actually three chapters into writing a book about working there, discussing the problems faced both from patients and asinine administration). Waaaaaay too many undergraduates have absolutely no idea about the **** that goes on, from patients that are overtly hostile to your attempts to help them and who actively insult and assault you, living paycheck to paycheck, dealing with administration who create policies that are absolutely bass-ackwards, national policy that promotes more CYA decisions than actual care decisions, etc. Part of coping with this is getting it out, and in this process the vitriol naturally comes out, like withdrawing a poison from a wound. Not everyone has this kind of experience, but more and more I'm inclined to think that they are the exception, rather than the rule.

 

[Wackie]

So if I have to sing the Smurf Song to keep my many readers (almost 800 unique hits a day and climbing) then I'm going to lose some readers.

I'd venture to guess that most of my readers appreciate my true-to-life look at medical training from the perspective of a genuine resident and would abandon me in droves if my blog were just another information organ of The Man.

PB, I'll back you.
As a working stiff turned premed but still working stiff, I know when smoke is being blown up my ass. I have learned to sniff out things that are too good to be true.
99% of information for premeds is a lot of fluffy "you can be a doctor too! It's hard, but by golly you can do it! And it'll be fun!" BS. I've read a bunch of it and PB's blog is the closest to feeling like I'm getting the entire scoop as I've seen yet.

So PB reflects on many of the far from glorious parts of training to be a doctor and all of the political BS that surrounds it. *shrug*
So it doesn't make for happy time reading. When making career decisions, I'd rather have the down and dirty reality than the "Mr. Rogers Residency Show".
Four years med school then 3+ yrs training with $120+K debt, responsibility for life in your hands while severely sleep deprived and being paid as much as some pimpily faced highschool geek to flip burgers (when you crunch salary vs hours put in) is going to suck. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to come down from the clouds.


I'd rather have things portrayed worse than what they really are. Spare me the sunshine and rainbows.

 

[spicedmanna]

Nas-

As a necessary proviso, my experience has been very akin to PB's. I spent several years working in psych (specifically the psych ER and adult behavioral units), and what I've read in PB's blog echoed my own experiences (I'm actually three chapters into writing a book about working there, discussing the problems faced both from patients and asinine administration). Waaaaaay too many undergraduates have absolutely no idea about the **** that goes on, from patients that are overtly hostile to your attempts to help them and who actively insult and assault you, living paycheck to paycheck, dealing with administration who create policies that are absolutely bass-ackwards, national policy that promotes more CYA decisions than actual care decisions, etc. Part of coping with this is getting it out, and in this process the vitriol naturally comes out, like withdrawing a poison from a wound. Not everyone has this kind of experience, but more and more I'm inclined to think that they are the exception, rather than the rule.

I don't disagree with you, or with PB, or with Wackie. There's nothing wrong with heralding the horrors of the field. Yes, definitely tell us. However, I think we must not forget that we are not completely powerless to influence the kind of experience we are going to have. As for me, I'm grateful for the forewarning, and I'm not going to dwell on it too much, either, because I want to focus on creating the kind of experience I want rather than the experience you are having. I heard someone once say that we create policy in every action/interaction. Enough said.

 

[8744]

I also want to point out that I like Emergency Medicine, the specialty in which I am being trained. If that doesn't come out in my blog then you must be reading it with a big chip on your shoulder.

 

[spicedmanna]

I also want to point out that I like Emergency Medicine, the specialty in which I am being trained. If that doesn't come out in my blog then you must be reading it with a big chip on your shoulder.

It does come through your blog.