Am I looking at the correct programs?

[SLC]

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I'm a 3rd year DO student interested in applying IM. Based solely on board scores I'm wondering if I'm looking at programs I have a competitive score for.
USMLE-1: High 220's ( very near 230)
COMLEX-1: Mid 500's

I'm interested in programs out west principally, but I'm willing to go east too. I have a goal of HemeOnc fellowship in the future.

Here's how I think my potential programs stack up. Please let me know if I'm wrong in any way based on any knowledge you may have.

Reaches: OHSU, UofU, UCIrvine, UTexasHouston

Decent shot: UofA, UNM, UofIowa, UofKansas, UofKentucky, PennState, UofFlorida, UWV, LSU-NewOrleans, Banner-GoodSam, MayoAZ.

Excellent Shot: Providence St.V, Providence Portland, Legacy Emmanuel.

Unknown Shot: UofLouisville, UofCincinnati, Ohio State, University of Missouri.

Am I on the right track? Any comments? What about my unknown's?

If you have any other programs I should be considering, please let me know.

Thanks in advance, I know it's early but I'm starting to apply for away rotations and it would be good to know where I might stand with some of these programs.

 

[Otto of the Silver-Hand]

I'm a 3rd year DO student interested in applying IM. Based solely on board scores I'm wondering if I'm looking at programs I have a competitive score for.
USMLE-1: High 220's ( very near 230)
COMLEX-1: Mid 500's

I'm interested in programs out west principally, but I'm willing to go east too. I have a goal of HemeOnc fellowship in the future.

Here's how I think my potential programs stack up. Please let me know if I'm wrong in any way based on any knowledge you may have.

Reaches: OHSU, UofU, UCIrvine, UTexasHouston

Decent shot: UofA, UNM, UofIowa, UofKansas, UofKentucky, PennState, UofFlorida, UWV, LSU-NewOrleans, Banner-GoodSam, MayoAZ.

Excellent Shot: Providence St.V, Providence Portland, Legacy Emmanuel.

Unknown Shot: UofLouisville, UofCincinnati, Ohio State, University of Missouri.

Am I on the right track? Any comments? What about my unknown's?

If you have any other programs I should be considering, please let me know.

Thanks in advance, I know it's early but I'm starting to apply for away rotations and it would be good to know where I might stand with some of these programs.

You know what's ironic? UCIrvine was one of the original DO med schools. BTW, the quote in your signature adds up to 101%. You may want to look at some of the Brown affiliated hospitals.

 

[visari]

I'm a 3rd year DO student interested in applying IM. Based solely on board scores I'm wondering if I'm looking at programs I have a competitive score for.
USMLE-1: High 220's ( very near 230)
COMLEX-1: Mid 500's

I'm interested in programs out west principally, but I'm willing to go east too. I have a goal of HemeOnc fellowship in the future.

Here's how I think my potential programs stack up. Please let me know if I'm wrong in any way based on any knowledge you may have.

Reaches: OHSU, UofU, UCIrvine, UTexasHouston

Decent shot: UofA, UNM, UofIowa, UofKansas, UofKentucky, PennState, UofFlorida, UWV, LSU-NewOrleans, Banner-GoodSam, MayoAZ.

Excellent Shot: Providence St.V, Providence Portland, Legacy Emmanuel.

Unknown Shot: UofLouisville, UofCincinnati, Ohio State, University of Missouri.

Am I on the right track? Any comments? What about my unknown's?

If you have any other programs I should be considering, please let me know.

Thanks in advance, I know it's early but I'm starting to apply for away rotations and it would be good to know where I might stand with some of these programs.

Ohio State, U of Cincinnati and U of Louisville take DOs but not very often (~1-2 per class) and mostly those who have decent USMLE scores.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I'm a 3rd year DO student interested in applying IM. Based solely on board scores I'm wondering if I'm looking at programs I have a competitive score for.
USMLE-1: High 220's ( very near 230)
COMLEX-1: Mid 500's

I'm interested in programs out west principally, but I'm willing to go east too. I have a goal of HemeOnc fellowship in the future.

Here's how I think my potential programs stack up. Please let me know if I'm wrong in any way based on any knowledge you may have.

Reaches: OHSU, UofU, UCIrvine, UTexasHouston

Decent shot: UofA, UNM, UofIowa, UofKansas, UofKentucky, PennState, UofFlorida, UWV, LSU-NewOrleans, Banner-GoodSam, MayoAZ.

Excellent Shot: Providence St.V, Providence Portland, Legacy Emmanuel.

Unknown Shot: UofLouisville, UofCincinnati, Ohio State, University of Missouri.

Am I on the right track? Any comments? What about my unknown's?

If you have any other programs I should be considering, please let me know.

Thanks in advance, I know it's early but I'm starting to apply for away rotations and it would be good to know where I might stand with some of these programs.

Maryland is another option to add. You'd be borderline competitive.
VCU another good option that has been known to take DOs.

 

[gutonc]

Another thing to do is to look at your school's recent match lists and see where people have gone. While that's not a perfect measure, it at least will give you an idea of the places that have given other folks from your school a shot.

Also, you're missing at least half a dozen other reasonable CA programs if you're really interested in being in the West.

 

[SLC]

Another thing to do is to look at your school's recent match lists and see where people have gone. While that's not a perfect measure, it at least will give you an idea of the places that have given other folks from your school a shot.

Also, you're missing at least half a dozen other reasonable CA programs if you're really interested in being in the West.

I know we have a few at UofA, UNM, UofOklahoma. But I haven't seen many elsewhere out west.

And while I am most interested in staying west, I am less interested in Cali. I would love to live there but the cost of living seems more than just a little too high for a married resident with kids to get by with a $50-$60K salary. Were you perhaps thinking of Loma Linda? I've given some thought to applying there, the real estate that far inland seems a fair bit more affordable.

 

[FrankAndStein]

I'm a 3rd year DO student interested in applying IM. Based solely on board scores I'm wondering if I'm looking at programs I have a competitive score for.
USMLE-1: High 220's ( very near 230)
COMLEX-1: Mid 500's

I'm interested in programs out west principally, but I'm willing to go east too. I have a goal of HemeOnc fellowship in the future.

Here's how I think my potential programs stack up. Please let me know if I'm wrong in any way based on any knowledge you may have.

Reaches: OHSU, UofU, UCIrvine, UTexasHouston

Decent shot: UofA, UNM, UofIowa, UofKansas, UofKentucky, PennState, UofFlorida, UWV, LSU-NewOrleans, Banner-GoodSam, MayoAZ.

Excellent Shot: Providence St.V, Providence Portland, Legacy Emmanuel.

Unknown Shot: UofLouisville, UofCincinnati, Ohio State, University of Missouri.

Am I on the right track? Any comments? What about my unknown's?

If you have any other programs I should be considering, please let me know.

Thanks in advance, I know it's early but I'm starting to apply for away rotations and it would be good to know where I might stand with some of these programs.

A Texas program you may want to look at is Scott and White. Located in Temple, so it's often overlooked in Texas (esp with all the UT programs and BCM), but it's a real gem. If you want Heme/Onc they will get you there IMO.

 

[Otto of the Silver-Hand]

Maryland is another option to add. You'd be borderline competitive.
VCU another good option that has been known to take DOs.

Is that a fact... UMMC is open to DOs now. Back in my day it was Hop at Bayview ( if I knew what I was eventually end up doing I would have ranked it higher. Oh well, hindsight is always 20/20).

 

[pattr]

I know we have a few at UofA, UNM, UofOklahoma. But I haven't seen many elsewhere out west.

And while I am most interested in staying west, I am less interested in Cali. I would love to live there but the cost of living seems more than just a little too high for a married resident with kids to get by with a $50-$60K salary. Were you perhaps thinking of Loma Linda? I've given some thought to applying there, the real estate that far inland seems a fair bit more affordable.

You will be competitive for Loma Linda, which is a solid mid-tier similar to a lot of the other programs you're looking at, and the cost of living is pretty cheap in the Inland Empire especially for Cali. You should add it to your 'decent shot' list. I know for sure that you will have a hard time coming by interview invites from OHSU and UCI with your stats though.

 

[SLC]

You will be competitive for Loma Linda, which is a solid mid-tier similar to a lot of the other programs you're looking at, and the cost of living is pretty cheap in the Inland Empire especially for Cali. You should add it to your 'decent shot' list. I know for sure that you will have a hard time coming by interview invites from OHSU and UCI with your stats though.

I figured OHSU and UCI were long-shots; but especially with OHSU, I'd go there in a heartbeat. You never know unless you try I guess.

 

[gutonc]

I know we have a few at UofA, UNM, UofOklahoma. But I haven't seen many elsewhere out west.

And while I am most interested in staying west, I am less interested in Cali. I would love to live there but the cost of living seems more than just a little too high for a married resident with kids to get by with a $50-$60K salary. Were you perhaps thinking of Loma Linda? I've given some thought to applying there, the real estate that far inland seems a fair bit more affordable.

LLU was one.

CPMC, SCVMC, K-SF, K-O, K-LA, UCLA-OV, Harbor, Cedars (actually no idea if they take DOs...do your own research), Scripps-Mercy, UCR, USC (unlikely but why not?).

Outside of CA, you've covered them all on the West Coast except for Virginia Mason. UW-PC might be an option (if you're willing to spend a year in Boise). COL in Seattle borders on that in CA though.

But hey...look at that...without even trying or thinking too hard, I came up with a dozen other programs for you to apply to.

 

[Trogghunter]

these say they take comlex and assumingly more friendly to DOs on the east/se.
Philly: Einstein, temple, Jeff, Drexel
MD: all of the medstars, jhbw(but probably not serious)
De: Christiana
DC: whc? GT(wants step 2 usmle)
Tn: UTenn, Chattanooga
Va: VTc, VCU, evms
Nc: Charlotte, nhrmc/Wilmington, ecu
Sc: USC Columbia, Usc greenville
Ga: emory, GRU, mercer(Savannah and Macon)
Fl: fau, UF-gainesville, UF-jax, Orlando

 

[pattr]

LLU was one.

CPMC, SCVMC, K-SF, K-O, K-LA, UCLA-OV, Harbor, Cedars (actually no idea if they take DOs...do your own research), Scripps-Mercy, UCR, USC (unlikely but why not?).

Outside of CA, you've covered them all on the West Coast except for Virginia Mason. UW-PC might be an option (if you're willing to spend a year in Boise). COL in Seattle borders on that in CA though.

But hey...look at that...without even trying or thinking too hard, I came up with a dozen other programs for you to apply to.

To my knowledge, the cali programs that have taken DOs to Categorical IM in recent years (last 5) in order of frequency from greatest to least:

UCSF-Fresno, SCVMC, Alameda County, Loma Linda, Scripps Mercy, UCR, Kaiser Santa Clara, Kaiser Oakland, UCLA-OV (four in past four years all from WesternU), Harbor-UCLA (two in past three years), Cedars (four in past four years all from AZCOM), SB Cottage, UCI, Kaiser-SF

Unclear about USC as it has been less DO-friendly in recent years but they did take two SGU students this year, both of whom I know personally and were strong candidates. I don't think CPMC takes DOs. Obviously there are other community programs you have a good shot at (St. Mary's, White Memorial etc...) but with H/O fellowship in mind better to focus on the ones listed above.

 

[notbobtrustme]

BTW, the quote in your signature adds up to 101%.

that's the point 🙂

 

[Niviancer]

Is that a fact... UMMC is open to DOs now. Back in my day it was Hop at Bayview ( if I knew what I was eventually end up doing I would have ranked it higher. Oh well, hindsight is always 20/20).

When I saw their roster I dont recall seeing ANY DOs at UMMC

 

[swlabr1980]

My friend at UNM said they took no DOs this year for IM, and actually have more US MD grads coming in. That's a big change seeing that they've had 3-5 or so DOs in the other classes.

 

[padastra]

OHSU is the only top-tier IM residency that accepts DO students, and I imagine the 2-3 who are accepted are at the very top. There are a few middle-tier IM residencies that accept DO students, but this pool is shrinking year by year. USC, which is on a rapid upward trajectory, has become much less DO and FMG friendly and are trying very hard to recruit good MD candidates. Hopkins-Bayview and UMMC have zero DOs.

In my view, the difficulty of entering academic medicine from the DO side is not adequately communicated to aspiring medical students, especially with some advisers being older DO physicians who competed in a very different landscape.

 

[SLC]

OHSU is the only top-tier IM residency that accepts DO students, and I imagine the 2-3 who are accepted are at the very top. There are a few middle-tier IM residencies that accept DO students, but this pool is shrinking year by year. USC, which is on a rapid upward trajectory, has become much less DO and FMG friendly and are trying very hard to recruit good MD candidates. Hopkins-Bayview and UMMC have zero DOs.

In my view, the difficulty of entering academic medicine from the DO side is not adequately communicated to aspiring medical students, especially with some advisers being older DO physicians who competed in a very different landscape.

I get this impression the more and more I dig. Where I struggle is trying to discern where I stand in terms of stats.

I can see that UofIowa and Ukansas both have plenty of DO's in IM and Heme-Onc, but those people could have been a lot better stats wise than me. I can't find any good data to help me gauge where I likely stand in terms of these programs numbers wise.

For instance, UNM says applicants should have a minimum USMLE score of I think 200 to be competitive with the group of applicants they normally interview, but that doesn't mean that their classes are full of residents with 200's, they could have a 230 average for all I know. They did take someone from my school in 2013 though. Perhaps I should try and contact that person and get their advice?

Thinking about all this is so stressful!

Thanks everyone for your input so far! I have been following the responses to this thread closely. Keep the responses coming, I'm interested in hearing anyone's input.

 

[padastra]

I get this impression the more and more I dig. Where I struggle is trying to discern where I stand in terms of stats.

Are you going to apply anyways? If so, just worry about doing the best you can moving forward. You'll know soon enough how competitive you are by the interviews that you get.

 

[SLC]

Are you going to apply anyways? If so, just worry about doing the best you can moving forward. You'll know soon enough how competitive you are by the interviews that you get.

Well obviously I understand this and plan on it. But getting a feel for where I stand would help me home in on an appropriate list of places to apply to. I have a lot of university programs I'd be interested in, probably 30 or so. But I could be barking up the wrong tree entirely, and that's the stressful part.

I haven't looked at community programs too much at this point because of my Heme-Onc goal. But maybe I should be focusing on those more than mid-tier university programs? I just don't know. And I'm not focusing on university programs because of prestige or anything. Just that I've been given the advice to try and get into a university program for best shot at Heme-Onc. This has been from residents I've been able to interact with this year.

I have had some good PM conversations with pattr though, which I really appreciated.

Additionally, it would be horrible to apply only to receive no (or few) interviews because I took the wrong strategy in applying.

I just want to be well informed when I submit apps this fall.

 

[padastra]

I just want to be well informed when I submit apps this fall.

👍 Fair enough.

 

[Otto of the Silver-Hand]

these say they take comlex and assumingly more friendly to DOs on the east/se.
Philly: Einstein, temple, Jeff, Drexel
MD: all of the medstars, jhbw(but probably not serious)
De: Christiana
DC: whc? GT(wants step 2 usmle)
Tn: UTenn, Chattanooga
Va: VTc, VCU, evms
Nc: Charlotte, nhrmc/Wilmington, ecu
Sc: USC Columbia, Usc greenville
Ga: emory, GRU, mercer(Savannah and Macon)
Fl: fau, UF-gainesville, UF-jax, Orlando

I thought Temple, Jeff and Drexel were DO unfriendly.

 

[rokshana]

I thought Temple, Jeff and Drexel were DO unfriendly.

there tend to be DOs from PCOM….not sure if they look at other DO programs.

 

[Trogghunter]

there tend to be DOs from PCOM….not sure if they look at other DO programs.

Their website says that they accept comlex. Take that for what it means.

 

[Instatewaiter]

OHSU is the only top-tier IM residency that accepts DO students, and I imagine the 2-3 who are accepted are at the very top. There are a few middle-tier IM residencies that accept DO students, but this pool is shrinking year by year. USC, which is on a rapid upward trajectory, has become much less DO and FMG friendly and are trying very hard to recruit good MD candidates. Hopkins-Bayview and UMMC have zero DOs.

In my view, the difficulty of entering academic medicine from the DO side is not adequately communicated to aspiring medical students, especially with some advisers being older DO physicians who competed in a very different landscape.

Hopkins Bayview had a handful of DOs a few years ago. One of their chiefs 2 or 3 years ago was a DO. For a community IM program it is pretty competitive, though.

UMMC may have 0 DOs but I still think it is worth applying. It is a strong mid-tier program similar to VCU (which has taken DOs). It costs next to nothing to add a program. So, I think it's reasonable to try. If no one every applies to a place that has had 0 DOs, there will never be DOs in those programs.

 

[padastra]

Hopkins Bayview had a handful of DOs a few years ago. One of their chiefs 2 or 3 years ago was a DO. For a community IM program it is pretty competitive, though. UMMC may have 0 DOs but I still think it is worth applying. It is a strong mid-tier program similar to VCU (which has taken DOs).

OP has a Step 1 below 230. Of course we don't know the rest of his application, but based only on that figure even an MD would not be especially competitive at either of those two programs. Also, how much of a detriment having a DO is very much depends on the program culture--for instance, Einstein Montefiore categorically rejects DOs whereas OHSU does not.

Although each additional school is relatively low cost, there are several dozen "mid-tier" programs that OP could apply to, and when it comes down to trimming the list from 60 to 30/40, the best insight probably comes from the program's history.

 

[SLC]

So how do I determine which programs my USMLE score is competitive for?

Can I take any mention of recommended scores on their website's at face value?

Any insight in that regard would be helpful.

 

[AlmostAnMD]

Ohio State says they want at least a 215 on their website. not sure if that means that everyone with a 216 and above is OK, but I imagine 220 something would work? Dunno.

 

[SLC]

Ohio State says they want at least a 215 on their website. not sure if that means that everyone with a 216 and above is OK, but I imagine 220 something would work? Dunno.

Yeah, that's the kind of thing I'm wondering... Though the use of the verbiage "at least" might be their way of saying that's the bare minimum they'll look at. When in reality, the average score of the people they end up ranking is much higher?

I have seen plenty of programs that have verbiage like "applicants should score at least a 200 to be competitive with our usual applicant pool" which I take to mean that the average score of the people they rank to be somewhere just north of that. But then I wonder if that guideline only holds for US-MD's and the expectations USMLE wise would be higher for DO's.

I have seen programs that come right out and say that DO's have to have a higher score than MD's to be competitive. Scripps Green in San Diego for instance has a 220 as a minimum cutoff for US MD's, and 250 for DO's.

And another program I've been really looking at implies that FMG's with 230+ and at least one year clinical experience in the USA, as well as DO's with at least 230 have traditionally been most successful. I can only take that to mean that a US MD student doesn't need 230+ to have a shot there.

Everything is so vague when it comes to average USMLE scores from what I can gather. I guess I'll just have to stick mainly to what I can glean from FAQ's on the program websites, and the frequency with which the program tends to match DO's.

 

[padastra]

So how do I determine which programs my USMLE score is competitive for?

Can I take any mention of recommended scores on their website's at face value?

Any insight in that regard would be helpful.

Unfortunately there is no reliable way to know. The NRMP publishes average Step 1 scores by specialty--I would look at that and consider that there are 390 programs and only about 30-40 are "top-tier" and 60-70 are "mid-tier". The rest are lower-tier academic programs (which might still allow you to do the fellowship you want) and crappy community programs (there are some exceptions including Scripps Green, CPMC, and Hopkins Bayview). Even then it can be hard to estimate, because some programs place more value on scores and some less. For an MD aiming for a mid-tier program, I would generally say that a 230 does not help you or hurt you but for a DO I really am not sure.

 

[pattr]

I have a lot of university programs I'd be interested in, probably 30 or so...

I haven't looked at community programs too much at this point because of my Heme-Onc goal. But maybe I should be focusing on those more than mid-tier university programs? I just don't know. And I'm not focusing on university programs because of prestige or anything. Just that I've been given the advice to try and get into a university program for best shot at Heme-Onc. This has been from residents I've been able to interact with this year.

Additionally, it would be horrible to apply only to receive no (or few) interviews because I took the wrong strategy in applying.

I just want to be well informed when I submit apps this fall.

I would recommend taking step 2 early (before august) and aiming to score at least 20-30 points higher than your step 1. This can be very beneficial especially for DOs.

I would say 30 is a good number of programs to apply to, especially for university only (but still apply broadly geographically and varying tier like you are already planning to, and don't count out community programs with strong match lists), and to aim to go on 15+ interviews and rank all of them (try to rank at least 10 programs to have security in matching).

 

[jen-E]

UNM program director here. I only recently found out about this forum, and I was initially worried about the etiquette for PDs posting here, but I decided to reply to this thread because I have been asked by 2 other people about why we do not have any DOs in our current intern class. It was just the way the match worked out and not because of a bias against DOs. 2 of our chief residents for next year are DOs. Regarding USMLE, our average is 220-230, but we consider other factors so there is a fairly large range of scores. We will interview with only COMLEX, but the scores will need to be higher than with USMLE (probably 550+)

 

[pattr]

Just as an FYI to OP and other DO students applying for IM this year:

University of Southern California (USC) did match a D.O. this past year. She is listed as an MD on their website but she went to A.T. Still SOMA and she is in fact a D.O. - see http://www.uscimresidency.com/why-usc/house-staff.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

2nd year DO resident here at a middle/upper-middle tier program (which will currently remain unnamed).

My stats were:
USMLE 1/2: 237, 249
COMLEXes: 588, 634
1 2nd author paper
3rd year grades: half H, half HP (HP in IM)
HP in sub-i (drat)

I applied to more than 50 programs and got at least 30 interviews. Some things I'll note that may be helpful to you:

- You need to add UMinnesota, Indiana U, UIC, UMDNJ-RWJ, UMDNJ-NJMS, VCU, OSU, Wake Forest, possibly CCF and Georgetown/GWU to your list at the least (got interviews at all of those).

- With my stats I was rejected outright by OHSU, Wisconsin, Mayo, and Hopkins Bayview.

- I ultimately matched my number #3, and got denied at both OSU and CCF (latter was a surprise).

- Philly progs in terms of DO friendliness: Drexel >>>Temple>>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff. Jeff had not matched a DO for a very long time when I applied (although I heard this changed?)

- You probably stand the best chance at Louisville, Kentucky or Cincinnati honestly

 

[SLC]

Thanks for the additional replies, and thanks especially to jen-e for both the reply here and the PM a few weeks ago.

Since starting this thread, I did a sub-i type rotation (I was a 3rd year, but it was at one of the programs in my original post here, and I was expected to carry 3-4 patients at a time for the duration of the rotation so it was essentially a Sub-I without the formal "auditioning" component.)

Anyway, it was a horrible experience. I hated almost every minute of it. And while I recognize that most of this might have been due to the program just being particularly toxic, it really caused me to re-evaluate things a bit. I realized that most of what I had enjoyed so far in my medical school experience is better served in other fields than IM; and even though Heme-Onc was probably my favorite rotation 3rd year, I don't think I liked it enough to put up with 3 years of the type of misery I experienced on my IM rotation.

That's not a knock on IM, I'm just glad I discovered that it really isn't for me before committing to the field in the form of a residency match.

After some soul searching, and evaluating my priorities I have decided to switch fields and will no-longer be applying IM. I'm currently on Sub-I in my new field and having a blast; I feel I can match to one of my top picks in this field without much trouble.

Hopefully this thread can serve as a reference for someone later this season, or for a future application season. I know I appreciated everyone's input.

SLC

 

[IMDoc607]

I thought Temple, Jeff and Drexel were DO unfriendly.

Temple and Drexel are although I heard Temple is becoming less so. At least 3 of my upper year fellows are from Drexel and some people I know from NYCOM are at Temple. Jeff is obnoxious.