[AMA] I'm an MS4 who had less than perfect premed stats and applying for IM

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gzer0

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I'm revisiting the forum. You can ask me anything and I will try to answer if it doesn't reveal too much of my personal information. A little bit of background, I went straight from college to a mid-tier medical school despite applying with less than stellar stats (3.5 cGPA, 3.4 sGPA--with at least 4 Cs from what I remember; during sophomore year, my entire GPA was below 3.0).

Fast forward to now and I have had some good success during medical school. Received interview invitations to a lot of great IM programs and would love to pay anything I've learned forward.
 
Would you recommend getting a "head start" before MS1 by studying certain topics, or would you recommend just relaxing until then?
 
what was it about IM that was appealing to you?
 
Would you recommend getting a "head start" before MS1 by studying certain topics, or would you recommend just relaxing until then?

Do not get a head start before MS1. Everyone will be in the same boat and any short-lived advantage you get will be meaningless (you do not know the academic focus your classes will take). Enjoy your summer--medical school is a ride.

what was it about IM that was appealing to you?

All the cheesy things: chronic patient care, physician-patient relationship, cerebral differential diagnosis, lifelong learning, and a traditionally academic...I want to do something in medical education when my career takes off.
 
With all the stress and dedication that medical school takes would you say that you still enjoyed your time there? Or did you just see it as a obstacle you had to overcome to become a doctor?

If you had a significant other how much time were you able to spend with them? Also does medical school put strains on relationships?
 
MCAT was 34, my ECs were your standard premed ECs (community service, research, clinical volunteering--some leadership positions sprinkled in). The most important thing was I stayed true to my application and that the whole thing had a theme.
 
With all the stress and dedication that medical school takes would you say that you still enjoyed your time there? Or did you just see it as a obstacle you had to overcome to become a doctor?

If you had a significant other how much time were you able to spend with them? Also does medical school put strains on relationships?

I think the preclinical years and USMLE Step 1 were obstacles to get to where I am. However, I loved my clinical years since it really reinforces why you went into this field. Your patients will rejuvenate you and they are the kindest people you'll meet. It also helps to finally see the practical application of everything you have learned in the first couples years.

My significant other is a classmate, I spent a lot of time with them obviously. Medical school definitely puts strain on relationships, I think <50% of premed relationships survived. On the other hand, there was definitely some incest going on within the class and you learn how to manage your time better in the later years. I'd say we have like 10 couples matching this year together and I would think >80% of the M4 class is in a serious relationship.
 
I think the preclinical years and USMLE Step 1 were obstacles to get to where I am. However, I loved my clinical years since it really reinforces why you went into this field. Your patients will rejuvenate you and they are the kindest people you'll meet. It also helps to finally see the practical application of everything you have learned in the first couples years.

My significant other is a classmate, I spent a lot of time with them obviously. Medical school definitely puts strain on relationships, I think <50% of premed relationships survived. On the other hand, there was definitely some incest going on within the class and you learn how to manage your time better in the later years. I'd say we have like 10 couples matching this year together and I would think >80% of the M4 class is in a serious relationship.

Thank you for the response!
 
Thinking about a fellowship? Also, what would you say is the most important factor (or two) that has helped you land interviews at good IM programs? Research? Slaying step 1?
 
Thinking about a fellowship? Also, what would you say is the most important factor (or two) that has helped you land interviews at good IM programs? Research? Slaying step 1?

1. AOA
2. Step 1 score > 250
3. Strong community service and good LORs.

I'm thinking about fellowship or staying general. I don't want to say which fellowships since the applicant pool at some of these hospitals can be intimate and all it takes is a few snippets to identify someone. None of the popular subspecialties though.
 
Did you have an upward trend, or do you think your MCAT somewhat made up for your GPAs?
 
1. AOA
2. Step 1 score > 250
3. Strong community service and good LORs.

I'm thinking about fellowship or staying general. I don't want to say which fellowships since the applicant pool at some of these hospitals can be intimate and all it takes is a few snippets to identify someone. None of the popular subspecialties though.
Beast mode on step 1! Thanks for the reply.
 
Did you have an upward trend, or do you think your MCAT somewhat made up for your GPAs?

I had a strong upward trend. In fact, if I had taken a year off and included my senior year grades, both my GPAs would have went up by roughly 0.1. This can be huge getting past certain admissions screens and I strongly believe I could have gone to a much better medical school. Undergraduate prestige and even medical school prestige all matter to an extent. I don't think I would have gotten any looks if I had that undergrad GPA coming out of my state school.

I also think I never had a chance at certain schools with accelerated, self-directed curriculums despite an upward trend. It may seem risky to accept a student who seems they needed more time to adjust to college (there was a myriad of reasons why I had a low initial GPA). GPA = work ethic. MCAT = standardized test performance. Someone with a high MCAT and low GPA screams lazy, and you can't afford that in medical school. But to answer your question, my MCAT did help. In retrospect, I should have taken a year off for the GPA boost and studied longer for the MCAT rather than the month I crammed for it.
 
I think the preclinical years and USMLE Step 1 were obstacles to get to where I am. However, I loved my clinical years since it really reinforces why you went into this field. Your patients will rejuvenate you and they are the kindest people you'll meet. It also helps to finally see the practical application of everything you have learned in the first couples years.

My significant other is a classmate, I spent a lot of time with them obviously. Medical school definitely puts strain on relationships, I think <50% of premed relationships survived. On the other hand, there was definitely some incest going on within the class and you learn how to manage your time better in the later years. I'd say we have like 10 couples matching this year together and I would think >80% of the M4 class is in a serious relationship.

This is surprisingly high IMO.
 
Hell, I'm only in my first year and probably 65%+ of the class is in long-term relationships.

I was just thinking that the stress of medical school could cause some problems/break ups. Also I would think that some people would hold out on relationships since they don't really know where they're gonna be once residency rolls around.
 
The average age of first marriage for women is 26 or under in ~30 states. It shouldn't be overly surprising that a lot of people have paired off by the time they are 26.

That makes sense. I'd just assume the amount of people married by that age would be lower for physicians/future physicians given the nature of their career/training.
 
I was just thinking that the stress of medical school could cause some problems/break ups. Also I would think that some people would hold out on relationships since they don't really know where they're gonna be once residency rolls around.
From what I've heard, by MS4 almost everyone is pretty settled down. In many ways, it's not as bad as you think, stress-wise. In many other ways, it's worse. But you can definitely maintain a relationship as long as you've got decent coping skills. Even the dreaded LTRs have been really successful so far- I think out of the dozens we've got going, less than a handful have split up.
 
That makes sense. I'd just assume the amount of people married by that age would be lower for physicians/future physicians given the nature of their career/training.
Physicians are actually far more marriage-minded than the general public. Over 90% of male physicians are married, while over 75% of female physicians are. Most people that I know are looking to get married in their first year of residency so they can get started with having kids, so that means they've got to look for a suitable partner now.
 
From what I've heard, by MS4 almost everyone is pretty settled down. In many ways, it's not as bad as you think, stress-wise. In many other ways, it's worse. But you can definitely maintain a relationship as long as you've got decent coping skills. Even the dreaded LTRs have been really successful so far- I think out of the dozens we've got going, less than a handful have split up.

This is concerning hahaha... I don't think I could see myself settling down within the next five years...

Sorry, OP. Didn't mean to hijack your thread. I throw some questions at you to get this back on track:

1. Knowing what you know now, what is one thing you would tell someone who is about to matriculate this fall?

2. What did you do between MS1 and MS2? I really don't want to do anymore research once I'm in medical school and it looks like you took that same approach (based on previous post).

3. Breakfast food vs. Dinner food. Pick one.
 
I'm revisiting the forum. You can ask me anything and I will try to answer if it doesn't reveal too much of my personal information. A little bit of background, I went straight from college to a mid-tier medical school despite applying with less than stellar stats (3.5 cGPA, 3.4 sGPA--with at least 4 Cs from what I remember; during sophomore year, my entire GPA was below 3.0).

Fast forward to now and I have had some good success during medical school. Received interview invitations to a lot of great IM programs and would love to pay anything I've learned forward.
Thanks so much for doing this, @gzer0! And congratulations on your interviews!

I am applying to medical school this year with a 3.55 sGPA, 3.65 cGPA, and 32 MCAT. Although the rest of my application is really strong, I am worried that my stats are going to hold me back! What advice do you have for someone like me? How can I help my application stand out so I can get an II? When you were applying to school, what do you think helped land you a spot?

And you may not be able to answer this, but do you think strong letters of recommendation from science professors can help offset a weaker sGPA? (If you can't answer that, I actually might make a new thread to get some AdCom advice!)

Thanks!
 
1. AOA
2. Step 1 score > 250
3. Strong community service and good LORs.

I'm thinking about fellowship or staying general. I don't want to say which fellowships since the applicant pool at some of these hospitals can be intimate and all it takes is a few snippets to identify someone. None of the popular subspecialties though.

This is awesome! Congrats! You're an inspiration to me! I was fortunate to be accepted with a subpar uGPA. Did you feel like you started with a blank slate? And did undergrad GPA ever come up once you started med school?

I definitely have hopes to get in and rock it once med school starts!
 
How the heck do people afford to get married during medical school?
 
This might be a dumb question, but what the heck does IM stand for? I would also like to know about the research question @Omppu27 asked about, if you did any between MS1 and MS2? I am interested in some specialties with competitive residencies, and I am burnt out on research- I don't like it. I have 2 years neuroscience research, and by the time of matriculation I will have 1 year aerosol drug delivery and device research. I am hoping to still be competitive for competitive residencies without any additional research in med school.
 
This might be a dumb question, but what the heck does IM stand for? I would also like to know about the research question @Omppu27 asked about, if you did any between MS1 and MS2? I am interested in some specialties with competitive residencies, and I am burnt out on research- I don't like it. I have 2 years neuroscience research, and by the time of matriculation I will have 1 year aerosol drug delivery and device research. I am hoping to still be competitive for competitive residencies without any additional research in med school.
IM = internal medicine
 
1. Knowing what you know now, what is one thing you would tell someone who is about to matriculate this fall?

2. What did you do between MS1 and MS2? I really don't want to do anymore research once I'm in medical school and it looks like you took that same approach (based on previous post).

3. Breakfast food vs. Dinner food. Pick one.

1. Medical school is a blast--especially the clinical years, and especially the fourth year. Do not be intimidated by any of your classmates, no matter how smart or hard-working they may seem. Focus on yourself--do not compare yourself to your classmates. I can't tell you how many times I stressed over someone telling me they read 3-4 review books and I hadn't even cracked open one. Still, do not become isolated. Be professional and collegial, help your classmates out when they need it.

2. Between MS1 and MS2, I did a summer of research. I got a publication out of it, so it was worth it (research is important for top academic residencies). I had some research before medical school, but it unfortunately didn't amount to anything substantial despite my best efforts and interest.

3. Easy, dinner.

Also, two of other medical school friends at different schools said they only know a handful of single people in their class. They can count them on one hand.

Thanks so much for doing this, @gzer0! And congratulations on your interviews!

I am applying to medical school this year with a 3.55 sGPA, 3.65 cGPA, and 32 MCAT. Although the rest of my application is really strong, I am worried that my stats are going to hold me back! What advice do you have for someone like me? How can I help my application stand out so I can get an II? When you were applying to school, what do you think helped land you a spot?

And you may not be able to answer this, but do you think strong letters of recommendation from science professors can help offset a weaker sGPA? (If you can't answer that, I actually might make a new thread to get some AdCom advice!)

Thanks!

You had higher stats than I did (except for your MCAT). Statistically, you have a good chance of matriculating (you'll have to refer to the AAMC statistics for that, but I'm guessing it's >50%). My advice is to have an upward trend and to have a theme to your application. If you do not feel ready, do not apply. This is not a process to rush. Apply broadly. I applied to >25 schools, got 5 interviews and 5 acceptances--a couple off the waitlist. Your experience will be different depending on what state you live in--really look at that MSAR.

I'm not the best interviewee, but I don't put on a show. I prepare, but I do not memorize answers. Afterwards, I wrote thank you letters of interest to update them with my senior term grades.

Do not fluff your application, really tell a story of how you got involved things. Did you volunteer at a nursing home, shadow a geriatrician, and then do research on aging? It doesn't necessarily have to be so formulaic, but you really want to tell a story through your application to be memorable. For me, a lot of my hobbies tied into my extracurricular activities even if they weren't medically related. If you are volunteering somewhere where you aren't getting anything out of it--I'm talking to you in the red vest stapling papers and organizing folders--then ask for a more patient-oriented experience. If you paint a true story, you will hit your interviews and bring your application to life, your passions will show, and they'll like you because you were able to convey your true self.

GPAs help you get past screens. They probably factor into your overall applicant score depending on how that medical school does it. I have heard some medical schools adjust your GPA depending on the rigor of your undergraduate college or previous experience with students from there. Strong letters help, but make sure they really are strong and personal. A phone call also goes a long way. I'd take a strong letter that really knows you over some generic one from a prominent person.

This is awesome! Congrats! You're an inspiration to me! I was fortunate to be accepted with a subpar uGPA. Did you feel like you started with a blank slate? And did undergrad GPA ever come up once you started med school?

I definitely have hopes to get in and rock it once med school starts!

It was a blank slate. Undergraduate GPA doesn't matter. I knew what my potential was. I know a lot of people at the bottom of my class with 4.0s in undergrad. Good luck!

@gzer0,
What are some ways to evaluate schools' clinical training?

What should I look for/avoid during medical school?

Thanks!

This is probably the best question so far and I wish I had a better answer. You should choose a medical school not on its BS preclinical curriculum structure. The whole point of the first two years is just to prepare you for Step 1 and the wards. A school that gives you at least 4-6 weeks of dedicated study time will suffice. Preclinical curriculums are largely the same across all schools regardless of the method of delivery. Some schools will give you earlier patient contact and that might give you an advantage entering third year--but it's a short-lived one. You should choose schools on their clinical training, which is almost impossible to gauge. A good rule of thumb is that a good academic teaching hospital will attract intelligent residents/fellows/faculty who want to teach. It is better to train in that environment than at a school with lackluster, spread out hospitals. At the same time, you want a hospital that will let medical students have some level of autonomy. When you go to your medical school interviews, they usually let you talk to 1st and 2nd years who really don't know anything outside the classroom. You should try to get the contact information for some 4th years, see if they would do it again and if they feel prepared for residency. During residency applications, programs will judge the caliber of your school sometimes on their previous experience with that school's graduates. If a school consistently graduates consistently well-prepared and adjusted students, then they will build a good reputation for you. If your school has a bad reputation or has sent a program a bad resident, you can expect that does not bode favorably for you (even though you're a completely different person). Find support from your mentors. I have been lucky to have fantastic faculty, and even residents, who were in my corner throughout the end of medical school. I couldn't have done this without them, and they know I'm grateful for all their help.

During medical school, you should try to look for a good group of friends. It'll make everything enjoyable. If someone rubs you the wrong way, just smile and move on. Medical school is short and you want to surround yourself with good future colleagues. At the same time, friendships drift apart as you transition from the preclinical years to the clinical years. I haven't seen some of my best friends, roommates for months at a time.
 
1. Did you go to a P/F school? Do you think the difference between H/HP/P/F and P/F is important enough to base a decision off of, assuming that everything about the two schools is equal to you?

2. What else were you deciding between as far as choosing a specialty goes?

3. Does shadowing in med school help when you are wide open in what you're willing to do?

Thank you in advance!
 
1. Did you go to a P/F school? Do you think the difference between H/HP/P/F and P/F is important enough to base a decision off of, assuming that everything about the two schools is equal to you?

2. What else were you deciding between as far as choosing a specialty goes?

3. Does shadowing in med school help when you are wide open in what you're willing to do?

Thank you in advance!

1. I did not go to a P/F school (they changed our grading scheme during our 2nd year, but even then it was still not truly P/F). I would not base a decision to matriculate somewhere based on their grading scheme. If you really love a school and feel like you fit in with a good support system, I would go there regardless of how the grading is carried out. Keep in mind that some schools that are P/F may still have internal ranks and that some schools may be P/F preclinically, but not so during the clinical years. Your clinical years are the most important as far as grades are considered.

P/F may take the stress off and allow you to really learn the material without fear of "studying for the test." However, P/F can be detrimental to lazy students who love to get by on the bare minimum. There's also the argument that P/F is more collegial and creates less inter-class competition. My advice is that almost all your schools will have the gunner extreme and the selfless classmate in different proportions. Most likely, everyone will be in the middle somewhere on that spectrum and as long as you make sure you do well without throwing a classmate under the bus and setting an example of what it means to be a good classmate--you will be fine. I promise you. However, with all that said, "if all things are equal between two schools," go for P/F.

2. I liked everything during medical school. If I ended up not doing medicine, I would have done EM or Anesthesia. For lifestyle reasons, I would have preferred EM and Anesthesia. However, I thought medicine would get me to the career I wanted--lifestyle/salary was much lower on my priority list.

3. Do not shadow unless you feel your school is giving you inadequate exposure to a certain field of interest (if possible, take an elective to get credit). There will be interest groups during your preclinical years and in the second half when you're on the floor, you'll rotate through the majority of the specialties. Everyone figures out what they want to do by the beginning of fourth year, most earlier than that.

Are you white? URM? I am also requesting further context.

I did not identify as URM.
 
1. How many LORs did you have for your application? Is there one letter that may have significantly improved your chances?

2. Do you wish you had a done a gap year?

3. Why do you think you got accepted to medical school?

4. Go-to study habits?
 
1. How many LORs did you have for your application? Is there one letter that may have significantly improved your chances?

2. Do you wish you had a done a gap year?

3. Why do you think you got accepted to medical school?

4. Go-to study habits?

1. I had 4 letters of recommendation. One from a humanities teacher, from a professor of a science seminar class, from my undergraduate research PI, and 1 from a PI I did multiple summers of research with at another institution. This last LOR made a difference because he knew me very closely and was a very informal, approachable guy. He wasn't a big-name researcher, but he wrote me a great recommendation and made a phone call to my top choice for me. Of course, I never saw any of my recommendations, but I was confident that all of them were great.

Word of advice: I think it's nice to have a well-rounded application and I encourage students to get at least 1 research letter, 1 LOR from the sciences, and 1 from an outside field (don't know if requirements have changed). It's important to have personal recommendations, so don't get one from your huge lecture hall professor--try and take smaller seminar classes. Do not get one from someone you shadowed or did not personally interact with.

Have a package to give your letter writers with a cover letter, your resume, personal statement, and possible work you did in their class. When you ask for a recommendation, be clear in asking if they can write a STRONG and PERSONAL LOR. If they have any reservations, then you should move on. If not, sit down with the letter writer and talk about the things you want to highlight in your application or show them the work you did in their class to jog their memory. They'll thank you for making the letter writing an easy process instead of a chore. Be sure to thank them and update them with the results, they love to see where you end up!

2. Yes, I wish I had done a gap year. Although I am happy with my life and the way things turned out, I know I could have have landed a better school if I had waited. There's no rush to apply. If I took a year off, I'd be able to get some research publications and more importantly, my AMCAS GPA would have seen some good gains with the addition of senior year grades. My application would have been on par with some of my classmates that got accepted into top 20 schools. Contrary to what floats around on the premed forum, as a general rule of thumb, your undergraduate name and medical school do matter for their respective higher-level admissions processes (medical school and residency). The importance is debatable and is minuscule at best, but not dismissible. You have to weigh reputation against cost and location. The other reason to take a gap year was to just relax with friends and socially decompress before getting on the non-stop train of medical education.

3. I think I got accepted into medical school because I am genuine. I researched things I was interested in, I worked with people I loved working with, I took classes that I thought I would like (some that I still think about several years out), I volunteered and got a lot out of it, and I did not sugarcoat anything when I interviewed. Nothing on my application was something I did "to get into medical school." If they asked me about a particular EC, I could talk about it for 30 minutes and describe what I got out of it, not simply what I did. The more you put into things, the more you get out of them, and subsequently the more you can talk about them passionately.

4. My go-to study habit is to cram. In medical school, your cramming does start much earlier (we're talking weeks, sometimes months at a time--not the night before in college). That doesn't work for everyone though. For the purpose of medical school, I would recommend keeping your resources small. Master one book instead of spreading yourself thin across multiple ones. Do a ton of practice questions and practice your knowledge retrieval skills instead of just reading things multiple times. You don't necessarily have to have a study partner, but keep your ears open if your friends have more efficient ways to learn/memorize a particular topic (an analogy or mnemonic perhaps).
 
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