AMA wants to force medstudents into certain specialties

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Nilf

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Here is a recent article from the Journal of American Medical Association.

The last two sentences summarize well the direction in which the winds of change are blowing:

"It is unreasonable to expect that market forces will self-organize an effective health workforce. It is time to try public health workforce planning."

There are several other articles in Sept. 10 JAMA on related topic. The basic thrust is that medstudents follow the most lucrative specialties (duh).

The oblivious politicos at AMA are lunatics if they think they can somehow force medical students into primary care or internal medicine. However, Congress may spank those allegedly highrolling specialists with big cuts, causing much unhappiness and severe specialist shortage. No, it won't channel medical students into primary care specialties, but it will surely extend the crisis onto other specialties. Personally, if my beloved subspecialty got killed, just like primary care did, I would rather quit medicine alltogether than go into PC or IM.

Of course, in the end market will regulate itself, and the medical students will vote with their feet, avoiding poorly-paid specialties with long hours, just like they always have. However, many careers will be broken and many years of training will be wasted when the government tries manually control the resident workforce. Think about it... it's your life. Not all of you will match into dermatology, or whatever specialty will be hot in next 10 years.

So this is what policy makers are cooking for you. You should read this because (1) it will affect your future, and (2) it may be useful during interviews. For those of you clueless about healthcare, this is a good place to start.




Improving Accountability for the Public Investment in Health Profession Education

It's Time to Try Health Workforce Planning
David C. Goodman, MD, MS

JAMA. 2008;300(10):1205-1207.

There is widespread discontent with today's health workforce and its training pipeline. Patients cannot find primary care physicians who are accepting new patients and have difficulty navigating care that is fragmented over increasingly specialized clinicians. Some organizations warn that there will soon be a large gap in the number of physicians required to meet projected increases in patient utilization.1 Others point out that clinicians are ineffectively and inefficiently deployed across regions and predict that increases in the number of physicians will lead to an increase in expensive and marginally useful services that fail to improve health outcomes.2 The primary care workforce has been depleted by a shift of generalists to specialist, hospitalist, and emergency department services; little relief should be expected from the youngest physicians, who have a declining interest in primary care.3 Attention of workforce planners to the role of nonphysician clinicians is perfunctory even as the numbers and autonomy of nurses and physician assistants increase. Programs demonstrated to be highly effective in attracting physicians to care for underserved populations remain underfunded.4-5 Little progress has been made in improving racial and cultural diversity in clinicians, and many programs charged with doing so have been eliminated.6

Just as nature abhors a vacuum, so does public policy. The troubled health workforce does not reflect misguided public policy but a near absence of policy. In the policy vacuum, outdated workforce programs are coupled with entrenched professional self-interests and political inertia to hinder desperately needed change.

Three articles in this issue of JAMA demonstrate the consequences of the workforce policy vacuum. Hauer and colleagues7 queried more than a thousand fourth-year medical students at 11 US medical schools about their decision making regarding internal medicine as a specialty choice. The study's most startling finding is that only 2% of the students planned a career in primary care internal medicine and that only 19% reported that the attractiveness of a career in general internal medicine was favorably influenced by their core medicine clerkship. Although international medical graduates can help fill the primary care training positions, the lack of interest by US medical students in primary care should sound warning bells for health systems and the already tenuous safety net.

The analysis by Ebell8 confirms his 1989 study9 and the view that "white follows green"10 by demonstrating a persistent strong correlation between US medical students' specialty choice and the overall mean salaries of those specialties. Only those with an uncritical trust in the medical markets will accept that the salaries paid to orthopedic surgeons, radiologists, and otolaryngologists signal their greater importance to patients than general internists, pediatricians, and family practitioners. Ironically, while these powerful economic forces are allowed to dictate the shape of the health workforce with minimal public influence, there are calls to increase the public subsidization of medical education.1

The study by Salsberg and colleagues11 tracks the changes in numbers of graduate medical education (GME) trainees during the past decade, a period when Congress constrained the increases in Medicare GME funds. After the 1997 Balanced Budget Act, increases in GME positions paused for 5 years and then resumed an upward direction. During 2002 to 2007, new physician GME entrants increased by 7.6%, with the largest relative increases occurring in nuclear medicine, neurology, plastic surgery, otolaryngology, and neurological surgery. The percentage of all residents likely to practice in primary care decreased from 28% to 24%.

These changes did not occur by conscious public design. In today's policy vacuum, workforce "planning" is the collective decisions of hundreds of teaching hospitals—to downsize the number of family medicine residents, to start a new otolaryngology program, or to expand the size of internal medicine subspecialty fellowships. Teaching hospitals do not have the necessary information and have never been charged with calibrating their training programs' size and specialties to public health or health system goals. Instead, decisions reflect institutional priorities, and patients are left with a workforce increasingly differentiated into terminal subspecialties.

Most other developed countries view public planning of the clinical workforce as an essential partner to the public funds that pay for medical education.12 For example, public guidance joined together with market forces are essential to the functioning of the health care systems and medical education in both England and Germany. Planning in England's National Health Service (NHS) begins with identifying patient needs, followed by setting targets for staffing and training. The planning process is highly centralized with decisions about the clinician staffing of the NHS directly linked to the funding of medical schools and to postgraduate training positions.13 Although Germany has a more complex mixture of physician employment and payment, funding of health services is also publicly guided. Similarly, public policy strongly directs medical education, including medical education curriculum.14 This coupling of public medical education funding and workforce planning tempers medical school and hospital interests with broader perspectives about the numbers of physicians and specialties needed in the future. The results are never perfect, but when workforce policy in European countries misses the mark, new policies can be more quickly implemented than in the United States.
In the United States, the primary public body concerned with the medical workforce is the Council on Graduate Medical Education (COGME), which has served as the principal advisor to Congress on the physician workforce for 22 years.15 During that time, COGME has issued 19 reports that have discussed the full range of physician workforce issues with little visible impact on medical training. The most recent report from COGME raises its own concerns about the current policy structure and argues for greater GME oversight: " . . . COGME recommends that the public good GME represents should be made explicit, accountable, and subject to regular and rigorous evaluation and management."16 Recently the Association of Academic Health Centers has called for "establishment of an inclusive planning body to create a national workforce agenda and promote a sound national health workforce policy."17

COGME limitations should be understood so that they are not repeated. COGME policy brief is limited to physicians and primarily to GME. There is no explicit charge to coordinate with other federal bodies concerned with clinical workforce, such as the National Advisory Council on Nurse Education and Practice and the Advisory Committee on Training in Primary Care Medicine and Dentistry. The composition of COGME is entirely physicians, largely from teaching hospitals, without meaningful representation of patient, public health, and delivery system stakeholders. The authorization for COGME expired in 2002 and its budget is currently at the discretion and the political influence of the Secretary of Health and Human Services.18 COGME relies on the Health Resources and Services Administration for staff support, although its expertise in the health workforce has almost vanished with the elimination of the National Center for Health Workforce Information and Analysis and federally funded regional workforce centers. In contrast, the Medicare Policy Advisory Council has robust staff support with 19 analysts to assist it in formulating its recommendations.

Major reform of the US health care system is once again on the political agenda. Successful reform will require more effective workforce planning. The United States should establish a permanent health workforce commission that can help overcome the current limitations of health professions training. Five principles should guide the commission's charter. First, the public interest in the workforce should be articulated. What should be expected for the national investment in the health workforce? The specific aims should be to craft evidence-based policy that improves access to care, quality of care, health outcomes, and the affordability of care.

Second, the membership of the commission should be broad and include experts in public health, patient-centered care, and epidemiology, as well as clinicians, consumers, innovative and efficient health systems, payers, and medical educators. Third, the commission should consider policy related to health clinicians of all types. Workforce planning requires inclusive consideration of clinicians required to meet patient needs.
Fourth, an evidence-based approach to workforce policy formulation requires a dedicated staff to develop the expertise for evaluating the workforce and the likely effect of policy recommendations. This staff needs to engage with health services researchers who are independent of the analytic groups of professional societies and trade associations that are potentially conflicted by changes in workforce policy.19 Fifth, Congress should provide the commission with an increasing degree of regulatory responsibility that insulates reform from the self-interests of training programs and clinicians.

The expected argument against accountability is that it is wiser to allow market forces to decide the fundamental questions of workforce size and composition. However, doing so practically assures maintaining the status quo. It is unreasonable to expect that market forces will self-organize an effective health workforce. It is time to try public health workforce planning.
AUTHOR INFORMATION
Corresponding Author: David C. Goodman, MD, MS, Center for Health Policy Research, Dartmouth Institute for Health Policy and Clinical Practice, Dartmouth Medical School, HB 7251, Hanover, NH 03755 ([email protected] ).
 
I don't see a problem with what Congress has proposed recently, that is, increasing medicare reimbursements for primary care physicians. This doesn't take anything away from specialists and it increases the PCP salaries a little, making it a bit more attractive to med students. If you think this little increase from 19% (from the article you posted) to even 25% interest will "break" any subspecialty, you're crazy.
 
I did not slog through this post, but I read elsewhere that these same studies show that it is not merely about pay but more about lifestyle and control issues - the stresses of dealing with primary care patients, admin burdens, etc. Increasing primary care pay is a good start, but more people seem to shun these fields because of the nature of the work itself.
 
Well, if they try to force into primary care instead of Pathology, I guess I could always just go into research. There's no way I'm going into a specialty where I have to deal with patients all the time.
 
I agree with the OP. Any program that forces students into residencies, will result in a lot less quality people entering the field. I wouldn't be going through all of this to be left without a choice come residency time.👎
 
I agree with the OP. Any program that forces students into residencies, will result in a lot less quality people entering the field. I wouldn't be going through all of this to be left without a choice come residency time.👎


I don't know what sort of legislative tools the author of article has on mind when he's talking about 'public health workforce planning'. Here are several devilish ideas that they might use on you in the future:

1. They'll DRAFT you into unwanted specialties. This might be done by simply creating a rule that every medical school graduate will work in primary care for a year (or 2, or 3) after graduating medical school.

2. They'll squeeze other specialties in terms of prospective reimbursement/quality of life, bringing them on par with primary care.

3. They'll decrease residency slots in other specialties, hoping this will force more medschool grads into primary care.

4. They'll massively import foreign medical grads. Ooops... already happening.

5. They'll use midlevels like PAs. Ooops... ditto.
 
I don't know what sort of legislative tools the author of article has on mind when he's talking about 'public health workforce planning'. Here are several devilish ideas that they might use on you in the future:

1. They'll DRAFT you into unwanted specialties. This might be done by simply creating a rule that every medical school graduate will work in primary care for a year (or 2, or 3) after graduating medical school.

2. They'll squeeze other specialties in terms of prospective reimbursement/quality of life, bringing them on par with primary care.

3. They'll decrease residency slots in other specialties, hoping this will force more medschool grads into primary care.

4. They'll massively import foreign medical grads. Ooops... already happening.

5. They'll use midlevels like PAs. Ooops... ditto.

Although speculative (except for points 4 and 5 haha) those are some pretty scary possibilities with how possible they are. I mean, can you really see the public raising a fit for forcing medical graduates to have to spend a year or 2 in primary care after graduation? It would be like a mandatory internship, and THEN you could apply for the match. From reading in the Pathology board, there's already a big push to decrease residency spots in that specialty due to not enough demand and too many trained pathologist, leading to people doing SEVERAL fellowships before settling down.
 
Here are several devilish ideas that they might use on you in the future:

1. They'll DRAFT you into unwanted specialties. This might be done by simply creating a rule that every medical school graduate will work in primary care for a year (or 2, or 3) after graduating medical school.

2. They'll squeeze other specialties in terms of prospective reimbursement/quality of life, bringing them on par with primary care.

3. They'll decrease residency slots in other specialties, hoping this will force more medschool grads into primary care.

Do you have any support for these three claims, or do you just spend your day coming up with AMA conspiracy theories?

4. They'll massively import foreign medical grads. Ooops... already happening.

The foreign medical grads come here as a result of their home nation's economy/career opportunities, not because their "imported" by the AMA. Russian docs are a good example.

5. They'll use midlevels like PAs. Ooops... ditto.

What does this have to do with decreasing the number of specialists? Wouldn't this create more specialists, as the PCP slot is being filled by a midlevel?
 
Do you have any support for these three claims, or do you just spend your day coming up with AMA conspiracy theories?

Those 3 claims are just an example of typical internet rumors that should not be believed.
 
Although speculative (except for points 4 and 5 haha) those are some pretty scary possibilities with how possible they are. I mean, can you really see the public raising a fit for forcing medical graduates to have to spend a year or 2 in primary care after graduation? It would be like a mandatory internship, and THEN you could apply for the match. From reading in the Pathology board, there's already a big push to decrease residency spots in that specialty due to not enough demand and too many trained pathologist, leading to people doing SEVERAL fellowships before settling down.

Right on, brother. As a pathologist, I strongly believe the market is WAY oversaturated, and everyone would benefit from closing 30% of pathology residencies. Don't worry tho, you'll match, pathology will never be very competitive. Dermpath is another story 😎.

But I digress. IMO it's possible that they'll make everyone do 1 extra year of 'primary care internship'... From economic standpoint, it makes perfect sense. You have severe shortage of workforce in primary care, and then there are medschool graduates who really have no leverage and will do as they are told. Beneath them there is a legion of desperate medschool applicants, who will sell their soul to the devil (AMA) if it means being admitted, and are ready to be exploited.

They can open a new medical school and admit only those who will sign in blood that they will fullfil primary care obligation, sort of like Army is doing right now.
 
2. They'll squeeze other specialties in terms of prospective reimbursement/quality of life, bringing them on par with primary care.

probably, the reimbursement cuts are going to catch up with procedural services eventually. I don't know if they're going to be primary care level (after all specialist DO have longer training and specialized skills) but the whole "ROAD" thing may no longer be THE specialties.
-Roy
 
What I find most amazing is that Joy Behar - yes the redhead from The View - was able to quote this statistic yesterday on Larry King Live!

"The study's most startling finding is that only 2% of the students planned a career in primary care internal medicine..."

...in reference to a discussion on the lack of discourse on health care issues in the current presidential campaigns.
 
This is a really interesting post, thanks for posting the article!

I don't see the government "squeezing" reimbursement for other (than primary care) specialties; there are limits on this to the extent that a big portion (I think it's under half, but it is substantial) of medical insurance is paid via private parties rather than government programs. What may happen if reimbursement through gov't programs decreased substantially is that certain specialties' practitioners may "ration" care; say by allowing gov't insurance clients in only on tuesday and thursday afternoons (when no one else wants to come in), reserving the best times for those covered by the higher paying private insurance policies.

Another possibility is that the gov't may subsidize more residencies for primary care, or somehow make it more attractive as mentioned above; provide discounted cost of med school if one agrees to go primary care. The only programs I'm aware of now may require that a person relocates to wherever the gov't dictates, or joins the military. If one could go to med school for free, or even with a stipend, in return for pursuing primary care, I'd bet that would help many students go that route.

Or new schools may be opened that are specific to primary care, kind of like there are podiatry schools now; these would be geared solely toward primary care physicians. I have read that the US has one of the longest (& therefore most student-debt-prone) training systems in place around the world; maybe a primary care track could be initiated that would run, say 5 years from M1 until one is fully trained. Couple this with subsidized tuition, and more students would go this route.

Finally, a consideration is the politics -- doctors as a group are among the most highly paid, and therefore most coveted by politicians as potential donors. I can't see any changes going through that would massively negatively impact doctors in general, there are too many practicing MDs that would be up in arms (and vote with their pocketbooks) about this. Any change will need to be gradual, and politically acceptable.
 
This is a really interesting post, thanks for posting the article!

I don't see the government "squeezing" reimbursement for other (than primary care) specialties; there are limits on this to the extent that a big portion (I think it's under half, but it is substantial) of medical insurance is paid via private parties rather than government programs.

I suspect where public reimbursement cuts go private insurance will follow eventually.

Another possibility is that the gov't may subsidize more residencies for primary care, or somehow make it more attractive as mentioned above; provide discounted cost of med school if one agrees to go primary care. The only programs I'm aware of now may require that a person relocates to wherever the gov't dictates, or joins the military. If one could go to med school for free, or even with a stipend, in return for pursuing primary care, I'd bet that would help many students go that route.

This already sort of exists, i know in some states there are special programs wher you owe them year for year to practice FM or something like it in a particularly underserved areas, i think there is also an ROTC type thing if you commit to the National Public Health Service which mostly wants primary care types. I could see programs like this growing.

Finally, a consideration is the politics -- doctors as a group are among the most highly paid, and therefore most coveted by politicians as potential donors. I can't see any changes going through that would massively negatively impact doctors in general, there are too many practicing MDs that would be up in arms (and vote with their pocketbooks) about this. Any change will need to be gradual, and politically acceptable.

Doctors are fairly marginalized as a political group, I doubt politicians would ever give a **** about what they say compared to big business.
-Roy
 
This is a really interesting post, thanks for posting the article!



Another possibility is that the gov't may subsidize more residencies for primary care, or somehow make it more attractive as mentioned above; provide discounted cost of med school if one agrees to go primary care. The only programs I'm aware of now may require that a person relocates to wherever the gov't dictates, or joins the military. If one could go to med school for free, or even with a stipend, in return for pursuing primary care, I'd bet that would help many students go that route.

Or new schools may be opened that are specific to primary care, kind of like there are podiatry schools now; these would be geared solely toward primary care physicians. I have read that the US has one of the longest (& therefore most student-debt-prone) training systems in place around the world; maybe a primary care track could be initiated that would run, say 5 years from M1 until one is fully trained. Couple this with subsidized tuition, and more students would go this route.

Finally, a consideration is the politics -- doctors as a group are among the most highly paid, and therefore most coveted by politicians as potential donors. I can't see any changes going through that would massively negatively impact doctors in general, there are too many practicing MDs that would be up in arms (and vote with their pocketbooks) about this. Any change will need to be gradual, and politically acceptable.


I hope you're right, but in the era of economic downturn, massive deficit, and burgeoning healthcare costs, I cannot share your optimism.

One solution would be to subsidize medical school costs for prospective PCP, but remember that money and debt is only part of the issue. The much bigger problem is the fact that primary care, with all the beaurocratic hassles, payment denial by insurance, malpractice threat, and long hours, has become a bad career choice. This perception will not change when you throw the money at the problem.

I also believe your overestimating doctor's political power. Compare lobbying budgets of medical organizations and insurance companies.
 
Has anybody heard of the economic fallacy known as the chess-piece fallacy??

Basically, it wont work.
 
3. They'll decrease residency slots in other specialties, hoping this will force more medschool grads into primary care.

Hate to break it to you guys but this one is going to happen, although not quite as the above poster describes. There needn't be any decrease. The number of slots in non-primary care specialties will stay the same, but the enrollment in med schools is already being increased across the board by 10-15%. So that will push 10-15% of US students into the primary care slots, whether they like it or not. There won't be any fall off in medical school enrollment, because the same number each year will still get their derm, their rads, their ortho. But more and more folks will end up in things previously left to the offshore crowd.
 
Has anybody heard of the economic fallacy known as the chess-piece fallacy??

Basically, it wont work.

Unless I'm mistaken (and I could be, it's been a while since I read up on logic and fallacies), the chess piece fallacy doesn't actually apply here. That fallacy states that you (the government being the 'you' in this case) cannot move people and expect them not to object.

No one is suggesting that here. You can't move a medical student from a derm residency to an internal medicine residency if they aren't in a residency at all to begin with (how many times did I just say residency?).

All humans are motivated by incentives, and if there is more incentive to go into a primary care residency than a specialist residency, the trend will shift in that direction. Currently, the higher salary of specialists is 'worth' more to a medical student than the lifestyle of a PCP. For a small percentage of medical students, the lifestyle is 'worth' more than the larger salary of specialists.

Why can't we raise the reimbursements to PCPs and try to bring their numbers up a bit? I still haven't seen anyone post a reason that this would be bad.
 
Unless I'm mistaken (and I could be, it's been a while since I read up on logic and fallacies), the chess piece fallacy doesn't actually apply here. That fallacy states that you (the government being the 'you' in this case) cannot move people and expect them not to object.

No one is suggesting that here. You can't move a medical student from a derm residency to an internal medicine residency if they aren't in a residency at all to begin with (how many times did I just say residency?).

All humans are motivated by incentives, and if there is more incentive to go into a primary care residency than a specialist residency, the trend will shift in that direction. Currently, the higher salary of specialists is 'worth' more to a medical student than the lifestyle of a PCP. For a small percentage of medical students, the lifestyle is 'worth' more than the larger salary of specialists.

Why can't we raise the reimbursements to PCPs and try to bring their numbers up a bit? I still haven't seen anyone post a reason that this would be bad.

Because it would cost money.
 
Here is a recent article from the Journal of American Medical Association.

The last two sentences summarize well the direction in which the winds of change are blowing:

"It is unreasonable to expect that market forces will self-organize an effective health workforce. It is time to try public health workforce planning."

I know communism when I see it and this is communism.
 
I know communism when I see it and this is communism.

No, communism would be choosing children and telling them the will go to school to be a doctor, regardless of what they want to do, and then telling them they will work for free in the specialty of the state's choosing once they graduate.

Nice try at sensationalism, though.
 
Unless I'm mistaken (and I could be, it's been a while since I read up on logic and fallacies), the chess piece fallacy doesn't actually apply here. That fallacy states that you (the government being the 'you' in this case) cannot move people and expect them not to object.

No one is suggesting that here. You can't move a medical student from a derm residency to an internal medicine residency if they aren't in a residency at all to begin with (how many times did I just say residency?).

All humans are motivated by incentives, and if there is more incentive to go into a primary care residency than a specialist residency, the trend will shift in that direction. Currently, the higher salary of specialists is 'worth' more to a medical student than the lifestyle of a PCP. For a small percentage of medical students, the lifestyle is 'worth' more than the larger salary of specialists.

Why can't we raise the reimbursements to PCPs and try to bring their numbers up a bit? I still haven't seen anyone post a reason that this would be bad.
o well i dint read the whole thing...i figured they wre trying to direct ppl into specific specialties...ill read it next time, lol
 

And insurance companies (and with respect to federal funded programs, taxpayers) are in business to make money and watch out for themselves, not to make doctors go into primary care. You aren't likely to see folks say, let's give this group of physicians more money. That is impossible to sell to your voters or stockholders. The public perception is that doctors make too much as is, so trying to get money hungry types to go into primary care by making it more lucrative is simply unsalable. People would lose their jobs/seats trying to promote this. The only thing that you can sell to the public is a program to cut physician salaries in the name of containing healthcare costs. So slashing reimbursements gets the vote, increasing it never will.
 
And insurance companies (and with respect to federal funded programs, taxpayers) are in business to make money and watch out for themselves, not to make doctors go into primary care. You aren't likely to see folks say, let's give this group of physicians more money. That is impossible to sell to your voters or stockholders. The public perception is that doctors make too much as is, so trying to get money hungry types to go into primary care by making it more lucrative is simply unsalable. People would lose their jobs/seats trying to promote this. The only thing that you can sell to the public is a program to cut physician salaries in the name of containing healthcare costs. So slashing reimbursements gets the vote, increasing it never will.

What if we end up in a situation where there is a severe shortage of PCPs, and those who can get get a doctor are desperate enough to pay cash? Cash practices have been on the rise, and it will continue in areas of shortage. If the public realizes that there is a huge shortage of doctors, then how can slashing reimbursements further, continue to be seen as a solution? If cash practices become widespread amid high demand of PCPs and willingness to pay, then insurance companies will have to raise reimbursements.
 
I agree that the common perception is that doctors make too much money as is. The FIRST thing people (non-medical) tell me when I tell them I am studying to be a doctor is "wow you'll be making so much money.." 🙄

This would ignite a flame war but if anyone needs a pay decrease it is nurses. Doctors go to school for farrrr longer and get paid much more but I still think nurses deserve less or doctors deserve more. I'm sure if i was pre-nursing, my view would be different. I can't argue this since i am biased 😳
 
What if we end up in a situation where there is a severe shortage of PCPs, and those who can get get a doctor are desperate enough to pay cash? Cash practices have been on the rise, and it will continue in areas of shortage. If the public realizes that there is a huge shortage of doctors, then how can slashing reimbursements further, continue to be seen as a solution? If cash practices become widespread amid high demand of PCPs and willingness to pay, then insurance companies will have to raise reimbursements.

There is no change in supply of doctors whether US students want to go into it or not. There is a fixed number of residencies. Those that aren't filled by US grads are filled by the offshore and foreign crowd. While there is technically a shortage of doctors in various parts of the country, it may be a short lived shortage, caused by the baby boomers, and their increased geriatric medical needs. When they die off, we actually may have a surplus because the generation following them is smaller.

Cash practices will always be small potatoes in our system because most folks get insurance through work, and only want to dig into their pockets to pay cash for luxury things like botox, boob jobs, and hair transplants. Folks aren't going to go outside of their insurance for regular doctor checkups -- they don't have that kind of money to burn.
 
I agree that the common perception is that doctors make too much money as is. The FIRST thing people (non-medical) tell me when I tell them I am studying to be a doctor is "wow you'll be making so much money.." 🙄

This would ignite a flame war but if anyone needs a pay decrease it is nurses. Doctors go to school for farrrr longer and get paid much more but I still think nurses deserve less or doctors deserve more. I'm sure if i was pre-nursing, my view would be different. I can't argue this since i am biased 😳

Come on man, go for the big fish. CEOs, cut the pay of insurance executives (or any executive for that matter). We can probably all agree on that.
 
Agreed on that point. It's just frustrating because I have a few friends who are finishing nursing school starting work now. Here I am third year of undergrad stressed as hell trying to keep up with all my hard classes/ec's/etc. so I can live the dream haha. In another 10 years of stressful living (2 yrs UG/1 yr masters/4 yrs med school/3 years residency), I can FINALLY start work while trying to pay off loans. That's the most bothersome part..


Come on man, go for the big fish. CEOs, cut the pay of insurance executives (or any executive for that matter). We can probably all agree on that.
 
Agreed on that point. It's just frustrating because I have a few friends who are finishing nursing school starting work now. Here I am third year of undergrad stressed as hell trying to keep up with all my hard classes/ec's/etc. so I can live the dream haha. In another 10 years of stressful living (2 yrs UG/1 yr masters/4 yrs med school/3 years residency), I can FINALLY start work while trying to pay off loans. That's the most bothersome part..


I feel ya, watching friends house shopping ect. can be a bit depressing when you've got all kinds of school/training left.
 
I feel ya, watching friends house shopping ect. can be a bit depressing when you've got all kinds of school/training left.

Well, there is no good answer for this, except to hold out the hope that in 10 years you will be enjoying what you are doing during the week, while they might just be enjoying their weekends. It's not like you are doing this for the money, or you'd be house shopping with that other crowd.
 
I agree with your post 100% Law2doc. I guess what bothers me more than the extremely lengthy/stressful process is the fact that there is no guarantee (then again, nothing is certain in life besides death). I am more than willing to put in all of the time/training required to become a doctor and a **** good one at that who is going to be smiling everyday driving to work. The only thing in the back of the mind is the what if you don't get in anywhere. I guess after that big hurdle I can relax a bit more haha 😳

Well, there is no good answer for this, except to hold out the hope that in 10 years you will be enjoying what you are doing during the week, while they might just be enjoying their weekends. It's not like you are doing this for the money, or you'd be house shopping with that other crowd.
 
There is no change in supply of doctors whether US students want to go into it or not. There is a fixed number of residencies. Those that aren't filled by US grads are filled by the offshore and foreign crowd. While there is technically a shortage of doctors in various parts of the country, it may be a short lived shortage, caused by the baby boomers, and their increased geriatric medical needs. When they die off, we actually may have a surplus because the generation following them is smaller.

Cash practices will always be small potatoes in our system because most folks get insurance through work, and only want to dig into their pockets to pay cash for luxury things like botox, boob jobs, and hair transplants. Folks aren't going to go outside of their insurance for regular doctor checkups -- they don't have that kind of money to burn.

Residencies may still fill up, but if primary care physicians are miserable, then they will be leaving medicine in large numbers, and pay cuts will certainly help that happen. And perhaps some of the foreigners may move back to their own countries. And the shortage is not short lived; baby boomers were born from 1946 to 1964. Life expectancy is 78 years. They are only starting to enter old age. So the baby boomers will be reaching death age from 2024 to 2042, assuming life expectancy remains constant. After that, they will mostly be dead, but immigration is helping the population continue to increase, so I don't think there will be a surplus.

They do have the money to burn, but typically they don't want to spend it on their health. But if people are desperate for a doctor, then they will probably be willing to pay to see them. Whether the crisis will be that severe is yet to be seen.
 
I think it is completely true that med students are motivated by larger salaries when picking specialties. The underlying cause however, is that we have HUGE debts from medical school. If people don't have 200K+ debts with large interest rates they will be more free to choose the route that is the best fit for them.

Lifestyle is also a big consideration. If you are working 80-100+ hours a week and sacrificing important family time, I don't think asking for a large salary is unreasonable. HOwever, I think this is where PCPs are shortchanged. They have to work bad hours with difficult patients and still don't get paid as well as others.

Finally, I have noticed that there is a hierarchy and a feeling of elitism in the medical profession. Specialist residencies are more highly prized and some specialists do consider themselves better than PCPs. I noticed that in rural medicine PCPs have far more autonomy in their practice. In bigger cities however, I think that this isn't the case. The rural life isn't for everyone though.

I don't mind if the government does something to increase the salaries of PCPs. However, I don't like the idea of them essentially forcing me into a residency I don't want. If FMGs can be used to fill these slots, then why not let them?
 
Come on man, go for the big fish. CEOs, cut the pay of insurance executives (or any executive for that matter). We can probably all agree on that.

Agreed. The problem doesn't lie with other HCWs. Insurance execs and all of their middlemen don't 1) improve patient care or 2) make things any easier for physicians. They don't 3) save the majority of employees or employers money in the long run. How people haven't figured this gimmick out yet just boggles my mind.
 
I don't know what sort of legislative tools the author of article has on mind when he's talking about 'public health workforce planning'. Here are several devilish ideas that they might use on you in the future:

1. They'll DRAFT you into unwanted specialties. This might be done by simply creating a rule that every medical school graduate will work in primary care for a year (or 2, or 3) after graduating medical school.

I'm suprised that no one's addressed this one. I, for one, find it highly plausible, considering the command-and-control mentality of the AAMC, AMA et al. Everything else involving med school admissions, med school and physician licensing is done by fiat, so why not this? (Especially since it's very unlikely that many people would agree to it voluntarily.)

P.S. I think the first person who should be forced to spend a year in primary care is David C. Goodman, MD, MS. (You'll note that he currently works in a cushy think tank.)
 
I'm suprised that no one's addressed this one. I, for one, find it highly plausible, considering the command-and-control mentality of the AAMC, AMA et al. Everything else involving med school admissions, med school and physician licensing is done by fiat, so why not this? (Especially since it's very unlikely that many people would agree to it voluntarily.)

It won't happen for the same reason law students aren't commanded to enter specific fields of medicine: profit is the key. If the AMA began instructing students to go into specific residencies (despite the fact that I would think this would fall under discrimination laws of some sort, especially considering almost all schools receive federal and state funding), students would stop applying to medical school, causing schools, and AAMC, and the AMA to lose money. They couldn't care less about what is best for the patient or the doctor, but when you start infringing on their profits, you've got a problem.
 
P.S. I think the first person who should be forced to spend a year in primary care is David C. Goodman, MD, MS. (You'll note that he currently works in a cushy think tank.)

You're aware he's a pediatrician, right? He may not be practicing much now as he is in an academic setting, but I think it's awfully arrogant of you to discredit his entire career.

http://myprofile.cos.com/dcgoodman
 
It won't happen for the same reason law students aren't commanded to enter specific fields of medicine: profit is the key.

And here I thought it was because those pesky law students tend to make terrible doctors... 🙂
 
So why do people hate primary care? It seems pretty sweet to me? I mean, when I think of a doctor, I think of the guy I go to when I'm sick. Usually, that's my primary care physician. If I'm feeling particularly ill, maybe he'll direct me to a specialist. But that contact and primary care role is something that I relish as a wanna-be doctor. I wouldn't mind being a primary care doc at all.

But on the real though; I'd like to get paid enough to take vacations and also watch my kids play T-ball. Is that so much to ask, I don't think so. Especially since by the time I theoretically will finish medical school I will have completed the 21st grade 🙂

So whatever solution WE (not our lawyer friends) figure out, we need to take care of (1) patients and (2) our families and (3) our selves.
 
Well poo. It's a typo and you know it :laugh:

😀 I know I know... my brother is a current law student and when I read your post, I was imagining his reaction to being forced into a specific field of medicine - and something just made me laugh out loud. oops - I mean LOL... or is it lol? (Been working for 3 years with older (median age = 40-ish) professionals since college and this jargon isn't second nature anymore... 😛)

Seriously though - this is an interesting thread and it's been illuminating to see the mix of fact, theory, and gossip associated with this clearly volatile topic. I think I'll keep my gut instincts to myself as I read up on the issues to become more informed...
 
...Or new schools may be opened that are specific to primary care, kind of like there are podiatry schools now; these would be geared solely toward primary care physicians. I have read that the US has one of the longest (& therefore most student-debt-prone) training systems in place around the world; maybe a primary care track could be initiated that would run, say 5 years from M1 until one is fully trained. Couple this with subsidized tuition, and more students would go this route...
This is a thought I have brought up with podiatry students, med students on my rotations, adcoms, etc:

Within the next decade or so, I see one of two things happening:
1) Pod schools/residencies/docs are just swallowed up by the MD world.
2) MD programs begin to dissolve, and we'd have peds schools, OB/GYN schools, ER/PCP schools, ortho/GS/plastics schools, IM schools, derm/ENT schools, ansesthsia/pain schools, etc.

Option 2 will never happen due to egos and "tradition," but when you think about it, sometimes traditions are just plain antiquated. The people posting here today will be the doctors, voices and leaders of the medical world (school faculty, hospital admins, etc) of tomorrow. The trend of medicine is towards more and more specialization, so "Option 2" therefore becomes a lot more viable than one may think unless MDs truly want to be in residency/fellowships forever and ever.

As you probably know, podiatry is largerly similar to MD or DO programs, but we begin specialization during school. Around half of clinical 3rd and 4th years are pod rotations, and the other half are pertinent medicine rotations such as ER, int med, anesthesia, gen surg, etc (which we will later rotate through again, as residents). We don't waste time in OB since it has very little to offer a future practicing DPM. In the end, we save a ton of time, know the anat/path of our future specialty pretty well even right out of school, and graduate pretty proficient and experienced in clinical foot and ankle work. Our foot and ankle residencies are then 3-4yrs (+/- fellowship after that), but if we hadn't begun specializing early, comprehensive foot and ankle care (reconstruction, diabetic foot, sports med, lower extermity derm, etc) may be a 5-7+ year residency.

Just some food for thought...

I'd be curious as to whether anyone thinks that that specialzed schools are a viable option. I'd mostly interested in med student/resident... not pre-pods (my apologies, but those already in the programs just have a lot more perspective).
 
have to be in debt, have to go thru years of school, have to put life plans on hold

im ok with all that

but id like to see some jackass tell me what to do with my career after all that and give me no choice. try it mother******s, i double dare you
 
Although speculative (except for points 4 and 5 haha) those are some pretty scary possibilities with how possible they are. I mean, can you really see the public raising a fit for forcing medical graduates to have to spend a year or 2 in primary care after graduation? It would be like a mandatory internship, and THEN you could apply for the match. From reading in the Pathology board, there's already a big push to decrease residency spots in that specialty due to not enough demand and too many trained pathologist, leading to people doing SEVERAL fellowships before settling down.

That would suck. Schooling plus residency already takes about 13-15 years (5-7 year residency). With an extra 1-3 years of BS thrown in there, they'd make us all old as **** before we finally get to practicing our specialty.

******ed.
 
This is a thought I have brought up with podiatry students, med students on my rotations, adcoms, etc:

Within the next decade or so, I see one of two things happening:
1) Pod schools/residencies/docs are just swallowed up by the MD world.
2) MD programs begin to dissolve, and we'd have peds schools, OB/GYN schools, ER/PCP schools, ortho/GS/plastics schools, IM schools, derm/ENT schools, ansesthsia/pain schools, etc.

Option 2 will never happen due to egos and "tradition," but when you think about it, sometimes traditions are just plain antiquated. The people posting here today will be the doctors, voices and leaders of the medical world (school faculty, hospital admins, etc) of tomorrow. The trend of medicine is towards more and more specialization, so "Option 2" therefore becomes a lot more viable than one may think unless MDs truly want to be in residency/fellowships forever and ever.

I'd be curious as to whether anyone thinks that that specialzed schools are a viable option. I'd mostly interested in med student/resident... not pre-pods (my apologies, but those already in the programs just have a lot more perspective).

Neither of the two above will ever happen. The first thing won't happen because medicine already has fields like ortho in direct competition with podiatry, and so the likelihood of happily merging another discipline with its own schools and training in simply is untenable. At best you see the two fields working in conjunction with each other at some facilities.

The second suggestion can't happen, but not for the reasons above that you suggest. It's really because it cuts against one of the basic philosophies of medicine, something podiatry doesn't really share -- that every physician needs to know the basics of medicine because everything overlaps. A surgeon is still going to have patients with psych issues. The primary care doc is likely the first one to see a woman with OBGYN problems. Pediatricians are going to see kids that require surgery, or IM subspecialty work. Everything has a cross-over point. And so it's incredibly useful, if not mandatory, for everyone to have some background in each, even if it's only through med school rotations. And in fact almost all the competitive fields currently require a year of IM or surgery residency before you can enter those advanced programs, echoing the sentiment that you need to be an accomplished generalist before you can really be a competent specialist. So no, the philosophies don't gel. Podiatrists and MDs coexist, but will never merge, nor will podiatry be drawn in as just another medical specialty because the underpinnings are different, which is why they have different schools, different residencies, different foci.
 
...one of the basic philosophies of medicine, something podiatry doesn't really share -- that every physician needs to know the basics of medicine because everything overlaps. A surgeon is still going to have patients with psych issues. The primary care doc is likely the first one to see a woman with OBGYN problems. Pediatricians are going to see kids that require surgery, or IM subspecialty work. Everything has a cross-over point. And so it's incredibly useful, if not mandatory, for everyone to have some background in each, even if it's only through med school rotations. And in fact almost all the competitive fields currently require a year of IM or surgery residency before you can enter those advanced programs, echoing the sentiment that you need to be an accomplished generalist before you can really be a competent specialist...
You don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but it appears from your forum name that you may be a non-trad career changer...
Out of curiousity, how old are you, what stage of your training are you in, and are you considering specialties with considerable residency/fellowship length?

I agree that one must have an appreciation for as many other useful specialties and services as possible, but I'd contend that you have to draw the line somewhere. This is especially true for surgical specialties IMO. The mind outlasts the body, and we've all see the over-the-hill surgeons in the twilight of their career. While their experience and clinical judgement may be immense, their fine motor skills and stamina simply are sometimes no longer there, and the patient may be much better served if the knife is in the hands of the resident. If you've had even a MS3 g-surg rotation, you probably know exactly what I'm talking about.

I know that surgical specialties have a surg intern year and not med, and some, such as ortho, cut to the chase (pun intended) almost from the start of the residency. Nonetheless, is it really that crazy to suggest that it may be an idea to have surgical specialty schools? Focusing earlier on one's future area of specialization would help to offset the incredibly long training and guys who are 30+ years old coming out of their surgical fellowships (CT, vasc, specialized orthos, plastics, etc etc). That modest 30+ age for becoming an attending is even assuming they started med school at age 21 or 22yo, which is no longer the norm with the increasing numbers of US students entering MD programs after taking a year or more off to beef up their apps, completing MS programs, non-trad career changers, etc.

Again, just food for though....? :luck:
 
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