Ambiguity of Math LOR as science vs non-science

[Avicenna]

Would it be wise advice for premeds to eschew math faculty entirely when seeking LORs? If a prospective applicant is sticking to the 2 non-sci 1 sci LOR guidelines, math is ambiguous and I've seen conflicting advice on whether it is science or non science from sdn, my university premed office, as well as some school's websites. I also think med schools vary on their position whether math lors count as sci vs non sci. With that said, would it be best to avoid math LORs entirely and not risk being rejected from any specific school?

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[Cookiess]

Generally speaking, I believe schools want actual science classes for the science LOR requirement. I would not use a math class to meet the science LOR requirement. Also, it would be 2 science LOR and 1 non-science LOR (rather than the 2 non-science and 1 science LOR guideline as you listed). For the non-science LOR, I went with a history/humanities LOR but there is quite a bit of flexibility with the non-science LOR option.

 

[Avicenna]

Generally speaking, I believe schools want actual science classes for the science LOR requirement. I would not use a math class to meet the science LOR requirement. Also, it would be 2 science LOR and 1 non-science LOR (rather than the 2 non-science and 1 science LOR guideline as you listed). For the non-science LOR, I went with a history/humanities LOR but there is quite a bit of flexibility with the non-science LOR option.

so you're saying math counts as non-sci? and yeah 2 sci 1 non-sci is what i meant

 

[Cookiess]

I'm not 100% sure on this. I would personally use a humanities/history/something else if you had the option so it would add a different dimension to your LOR set. If you feel that your math LOR will be strong, you could always get it and then call specific medical schools to ask about it.

 

[Avicenna]

I'm not 100% sure on this. I would personally use a humanities/history/something else if you had the option so it would add a different dimension to your LOR set. If you feel that your math LOR will be strong, you could always get it and then call specific medical schools to ask about it.

Would it be wise advice for premeds to eschew math faculty entirely when seeking LORs?

 

[LizzyM]

If math is not science, then what's the M in BCPM and why is it there?

 

[1337leet1337]

If math is not science, then what's the M in BCPM and why is it there?

My thoughts exactly. I have also been curious about why Math LORs aren't considered valid. Isn't math at the top of the science hierarchy? I.e. Math>Physics>Chemistry>Biology>social sciences.

 

[Espressso]

Semi-related follow-up question: Does a letter of rec from a PI/Post-doc you worked under count as a non-science letter?

 

[LizzyM]

Semi-related follow-up question: Does a letter of rec from a PI/Post-doc you worked under count as a non-science letter?

What are they investigating if it is not "science"? Maybe if it is a PI or post-doc in the social sciences....

 

[starspells]

LizzyM I've seen people say some schools will count it for the science letter requirement while others will not (as in they only count BCP toward science). While SDN usually refers to the BCPM gpa as the "sgpa," the BCPM gpa is really just the GPA earned from BCPM courses.

 

[LizzyM]

I think that Math is a science and a letter from a math professor should not fill the requirement of a "non-science" letter. Ditto letters from PIs and Post-docs unless the investigator is in the social sciences (e.g. economics, anthropology, sociology, etc). That said, I think that 3 letters from three different disciplines fits the bill just fine and applicants get far more bent out of shape than adcoms on this topic.

 

[starspells]

I think that Math is a science and a letter from a math professor should not fill the requirement of a "non-science" letter. Ditto letters from PIs and Post-docs unless the investigator is in the social sciences (e.g. economics, anthropology, sociology, etc). That said, I think that 3 letters from three different disciplines fits the bill just fine and applicants get far more bent out of shape than adcoms on this topic.

I worry that if I don't fulfill the technical requirements for LORs it's grounds for rejection... I imagine other applicants feel the same way lol.

 

[soadhead]

Technically, math is not a science. Math itself does not investigate the natural world. It doesn't use the scientific method. Math is used in science, but is not a science itself And there are other sciences outside of biology, chemistry, and physics. That's why AMCAS calls it the BCPM GPA instead of the science GPA. It includes a non-science, and excludes other sciences.

 

[zedsdead]

I emailed a bunch of schools about this when I applied. The ones that responded definitively "no" were Case, Einstein, Emory, Northwestern, and Vanderbilt. Hopkins said "preferably not." Every other ignored the question and simply copy-pasted the letter policy paragraph from their website...

 

[LizzyM]

I emailed a bunch of schools about this when I applied. The ones that responded definitively "no" were Case, Einstein, Emory, Northwestern, and Vanderbilt. Hopkins said "preferably not." Every other ignored the question and simply copy-pasted the letter policy paragraph from their website...

What was the question?

 

[zedsdead]

What was the question?

No what? Science or non science?

Oops! I asked if math counts as a science and those were the schools that replied no.

 

[LizzyM]

Oops! I asked if math counts as a science and those were the schools that replied no.

OK, so if asked for science letters, figure that the pre-reqs with labs, or any advanced courses in those subject areas, are the one's you should target for LOR: bio, chem, physics, o-chem, and let's throw in biochem.

For non-science, I'd avoid math and go with subjects in which the faculty member has seen your skills in class discussion, writing, and/or teamwork. I've also seen good "non-science" letters from coaches.

 

[zedsdead]

OK, so if asked for science letters, figure that the pre-reqs with labs, or any advanced courses in those subject areas, are the one's you should target for LOR: bio, chem, physics, o-chem, and let's throw in biochem.

For non-science, I'd avoid math and go with subjects in which the faculty member has seen your skills in class discussion, writing, and/or teamwork. I've also seen good "non-science" letters from coaches.

This is what I ended up doing, but it leaves no room for math letters! Half of my courses were math and were the classes where I had the best relations with my profs. I was disappointed that at some schools these letters were neither science nor non-science, rendered completely useless.

 

[soadhead]

This is what I ended up doing, but it leaves no room for math letters! Half of my courses were math and were the classes where I had the best relations with my profs. I was disappointed that at some schools these letters were neither science nor non-science, rendered completely useless.

A lot of schools allow more than 3 letters. So if you have a strong LOR from a math professor, then you should use it for those schools that will accept additional letters.

 

[LizzyM]

This is what I ended up doing, but it leaves no room for math letters! Half of my courses were math and were the classes where I had the best relations with my profs. I was disappointed that at some schools these letters were neither science nor non-science, rendered completely useless.

You have to consider what the med schools want to know about you in asking for letters: is this person strong in the natural sciences including at the bench? is this person strong in small group -team work and able to communicate well in written and spoken English?

The sad thing is that so many of the pre-req classes are so huge that the professors have little more than the grade book to go on. Frankly, I find 95% of the letters to be less than useless.

 

[Avicenna]

"No" to what question?

Edit nvm i saw the reply

So in that case, a good premed bit of wisdom to add is "no math LORs"

 

[LizzyM]

So in that case, a good premed bit of wisdom to add is "no math LORs"

I guess Math letters are fine if you are going to meet the med schools' requirements by submitting a committee letter.

 

[vk77]

I used an LOR from a statistics professor last cycle as one of my "science letters" at every school I applied to, and got admitted to multiple schools. Take that for what it's worth.