ambition or family

[xiphoid2010]

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Yesterday, got a call from the DOP at my LTACH PRN job asking if it was a good time to talk to me. At first, I thought I must have made a mistake covering the last weekend there, but then he started chatting. Finally got around to mention that he's is seriously thinking about retiring and his wife want to move to Penn closer to family. He had mentioned it in passing before, but never thought it was going to happen so soon since he's not that old.

So the gist is that he's asking if I'll be interesting in taking his place, since it would save them considerable money/time/effort. I casually passing on my salary, and he said they can probably match that, and at the same time I would have less responsibility and workload than my current job. I already knew the system, and have the background, so he thinks have me take things over would be a smooth one. I told him that I'll let him know end of this week.

I talked to my wife last night, but she gave no clear opinions. and no matter what the pros and cons I thought of she fell back to the "I just want you to be happy" answer, but I know she wants me spend more family time. And today, I went to happy hour after work with couple of other director buddies, but caution prevented me from confiding in them. Now I'm hanging out at my microbrewry and thinking about the next step.

As I think about it:
Pro:
commute would be down to 25 minutes instead of 45
more family time, especially since now I'm a father of 2
less responsibilities, smaller staff, comparable pay

Con:
smaller LTACH system --> fewer advancement opportunites
less clinical issues --> loss of knowledge over time --> fewer career options
Switching jobs after less than 2 years --> possible red flag on CV in the future

Unsure:
Fewer subordinates --> fewer gaps/call-in, but fewer reschedule option --> workload?
Performance evaluation differences?
Benefits package differences?

Guess, I'm venting and letting alcohol do some of the talking. But it's vexing. I hate when there is no clearly right or wrong answers. On one hand, I want to achieve more. But as my wife remind me, I already achieved the goal I told her during school. You have one go at raising your family, but at the same time would hate to regret, when old and grey, for giving up on what you could have achieved. Heck, I know there is no answer on the internet, but if someone can think of something I hadn't, great. 🙂 I'll make the call tomorrow. Life sure has it's twists and turns... Sometimes I miss being in school, when there is a singular right answer to every problem.

 

[Recycled]

I see your points both ways and don't have kids myself yet....But at the end of the road, I doubt I will be thinking "I wish I'd worked more..." I could of course be horribly wrong.....

I think it comes down to....which can you imagine living without and still feeling whole/happy? Neither answer makes you "bad" BTW....we are all individuals.

 

[grumps]

Be careful. Check out how stable the prospects for the operation. Is it being shopped around? Hate to see you jump ship only to find out shortly after you have new owners.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Be careful. Check out how stable the prospects for the operation. Is it being shopped around? Hate to see you jump ship only to find out shortly after you have new owners.

This I do have an answer to. I learned to look into the financials after signing on to my current job (we got bought by a larger system out last year, now we are basically a feeder).

This LTAC is doing alright financially and expanding. The current DOP and I are on friendly terms, and I doubt he would he would/could shaft me with due diligence, but I wouldn't be surprised if he is moving up and holding that out on me. But if that's the case, he deserve it more than I.

 

[xiphoid2010]

I see your points both ways and don't have kids myself yet....But at the end of the road, I doubt I will be thinking "I wish I'd worked more..." I could of course be horribly wrong.....

I think it comes down to....which can you imagine living without and still feeling whole/happy? Neither answer makes you "bad" BTW....we are all individuals.

when
well, thank you, but that's what I am kind of afraid of. Been a man of logic and reason all my life, I can't take comfort choosing between possibilities, and especially between possibilities and intangibles. I wish I was a computer some times, could calculate every possible solutions and act on the one with the most benefit/probability.

 

[Ackj]

What advancement opportunities are you looking for? Aren't you already DOP? DOP of a smaller hospital, DOP of a LTC, don't seem like they're horribly different. If you're looking to be director of a major medical center, I suppose that's an "advancement" but probably would be diminishing returns.

New gig sounds like more pay, less hours.


OT: What's on tap tonight?

 

[Recycled]

Chimay, I hope! 🙂

What advancement opportunities are you looking for? Aren't you already DOP? DOP of a smaller hospital, DOP of a LTC, don't seem like they're horribly different. If you're looking to be director of a major medical center, I suppose that's an "advancement" but probably would be diminishing returns.

New gig sounds like more pay, less hours.


OT: What's on tap tonight?

 

[xiphoid2010]

What advancement opportunities are you looking for? Aren't you already DOP? DOP of a smaller hospital, DOP of a LTC, don't seem like they're horribly different. If you're looking to be director of a major medical center, I suppose that's an "advancement" but probably would be diminishing returns.

New gig sounds like more pay, less hours.


OT: What's on tap tonight?

Well, when I met my girlfriend, now wife, my goal was to be DOP in 5-10 years after graduation. I realized that half a year after my residency. But as the old saying goes, there is no end to ambition. After we got bought, I was thinking about how to climb up to lead a mid-sized hospital and eventually a big facility. Hadn't planned further than that.

Financially, yes, there is a diminishing rate of return at least until you make corporate. But someone said a man's defined by what he accomplish in life, and I'm a subscriber to that. For good or ill, Rockefeller, Napoleon, ect, all left their mark. I agree that family is important, but people know and live in the world of these men of note and every day Joes that worked 9-5 are all forgotten.

P.S had couple mugs of their IPA on tap. Mutl-something.. yeah, it's that good, little stronger than I'm used to. Huahh!

 

[PharmDstudent]

Do it! LTACH FTW!!

 

[samuricool]

But someone said a man's defined by what he accomplish in life, and I'm a subscriber to that. For good or ill, Rockefeller, Napoleon, ect, all left their mark. I agree that family is important, but people know and live in the world of these men of note and every day Joes that worked 9-5 are all forgotten.

sounds like you already made your choice, career > family.

Seriously, other than a couple of rare exceptions you would be one of the only pharmacists to achieve the notoriety as a Rockefeller or Napoleon. Not saying it isn't possible but It would be rare ground. From this Joe, I have no problem being forgotten. I know my place in this world. I have several other goals outside of pharmacy, none of which will make me a Newton or Buffet. Again, I'm ok with that.

There usually isn't a middle ground for things like these. Either stop looking over the fence and be happy with what you have or get use to someone else raising your kids while you're shooting for the stars.

 

[mustang sally]

sounds like you already made your choice, career > family.

Seriously, other than a couple of rare exceptions you would be one of the only pharmacists to achieve the notoriety as a Rockefeller or Napoleon. Not saying it isn't possible but It would be rare ground. From this Joe, I have no problem being forgotten. I know my place in this world. I have several other goals outside of pharmacy, none of which will make me a Newton or Buffet. Again, I'm ok with that.

There usually isn't a middle ground for things like these. Either stop looking over the fence and be happy with what you have or get use to someone else raising your kids while you're shooting for the stars.

Kind of what I was thinking...most men are forgotten. It doesn't make their lives that they led or what they meant to their families any less special though.

Is becoming a DOP at larger and larger hospitals really what is going to bring you happiness? If that is the case, I would stick with the current job.

 

[wucool33]

sounds like you already made your choice, career > family.

Seriously, other than a couple of rare exceptions you would be one of the only pharmacists to achieve the notoriety as a Rockefeller or Napoleon. Not saying it isn't possible but It would be rare ground. From this Joe, I have no problem being forgotten. I know my place in this world. I have several other goals outside of pharmacy, none of which will make me a Newton or Buffet. Again, I'm ok with that.

There usually isn't a middle ground for things like these. Either stop looking over the fence and be happy with what you have or get use to someone else raising your kids while you're shooting for the stars.

Well said.

xiphoid, unless you can come up with an idea that can change our healthcare system completely, I highly doubt you'll be remembered by anyone. But you are obviously not happy with where you are in life... and I don't think you ever will be. I just hope when you are old and gray, you can look back on your life and say you made the right choices. It will suck for your kids for not having a father figure in their lives. I'm not sure why you decided to have another kid when you already feel career is more important. That's not fair to your kids or your wife.

 

[npage148]

Coming from someone that thinks it is not big deal to work 10 days in a row I'm suprised you are debating the choice. Chose career and leave family in the rear view

 

[All4MyDaughter]

For me and for my husband, work is just work and work pays for life. Life is family, friends, traveling, hobbies, volunteering, etc.

 

[Rouelle]

For me and for my husband, work is just work and work pays for life. Life is family, friends, traveling, hobbies, volunteering, etc.

👍👍👍

 

[Ackj]

But someone said a man's defined by what he accomplish in life, and I'm a subscriber to that. For good or ill, Rockefeller, Napoleon, ect, all left their mark.\

You're in the wrong field then. How many pharmacists are remembered for greatness?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pharmacists

None of these names mean anything. Dr. Pepper was a great development for our society, but nobody has heard of Charles Alderton. If you aren't a pharmacist or history buff these names are all meaningless. If you are one of those, you'll recognize maybe 3-4 names.

 

[xiphoid2010]

You're in the wrong field then. How many pharmacists are remembered for greatness?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pharmacists

None of these names mean anything. Dr. Pepper was a great development for our society, but nobody has heard of Charles Alderton. If you aren't a pharmacist or history buff these names are all meaningless. If you are one of those, you'll recognize maybe 3-4 names.

I used Rockefeller as a name that others could instantly pickup and understand the point I'm trying to make. To achieve impact that Rockefeller did, of course, would be highly unlikely. However, you don't need to be Rockefeller to be remembered. When I was a medicinal chemist, R.B Woodward was a name few outside of the field heard of, but every chemist knew. For our profession, there are also pharmacists that will always be known for what they did for this profession.

There are many different philosophies of life, what's the meaning and what are the goals. I just happen to subscribe to one that derive meaning from contributions made beyond the personal life. But plenty of other philosophies out there, no one that's a right fit for all, of course.

 

[Momus]

In a very long period of time - geologic time scale - thousands of years from now, no one cares about Bill Gates, Rockerfeller, Hitler etc... What you do now does not matter. It's simply a blink of an eye. Just do what you want, and know that you too, will be forgotten in time

 

[awval999]

There are many different philosophies of life, what's the meaning and what are the goals. I just happen to subscribe to one that derive meaning from contributions made beyond the personal life. But plenty of other philosophies out there, no one that's a right fit for all, of course.

You are right. You only get one chance. Let's say your dream is to have a big yellow house. Then by God do whatever you need to do to get that yellow house. If your dream is to swing for the fences in your career then do that as well.

The problem in pharmacy, especially hospital pharmacy--- is that it attracts for a better word--- candidates that had the ability to go the medical school, etc, but chose pharmacy due to the lifestyle, short training, high wages in the 20's, etc.

That's why you are getting all this, I'd call it, "negative" feedback. It's rare for someone to be passionate with pharmacy like it is with medicine. I chose pharmacy because I wanted health-care esq career without much sacrifice. So did many of the others here. Many chose pharmacy because they can have a family and work part-time, travel in their 20's, not work 80-100 hr residency weeks for 3-5 years.

Your question just comes off as "uncommon".

 

[farmadiazepine]

For me I would pick family.

FYI this is coming from someone who works every day and has no wife, no girlfriend. Pick family.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Well, called the DOP back, expressed my interest and thanked him for the opportunity. At the same time asked if could meet with them onsite to learn more, to answer some questions, and how I could best contribute to the organization. That was their plan as well, so will be setting up an interview with their leadership team next week. It makes sense to keep all options open and make the most informed decision.

 

[Old Timer]

Do you seriously have to ask this question? Really? The answer should be obvious to you.
I am know almost 55 years old. No matter how you do the math there is more of my life behind me than ahead of me. Everyday when I log onto the website for the local paper, the obits show up. Do you want your obituary to read "Director of Pharmacy at ABC Hospital" I want my obituary to read "Husband, Father, Friend...." Being a Pharmacist defines you? It's your vocation. It's how you provide food and shelter for your family. The most important thing about your job is that it provides enough money without costing too much time and you don't hate doing it.

Every minute you spend away from your children when they are little can NEVER be recaptured. You can't make it up to them with things. I don't buy this quality time thing. It's the amount of time you spend with your family that's important. You cannot put a price on reading your kids a bedtime story and tucking them in.

To give you a pop culture perspective:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s5r2spPJ8g[/YOUTUBE]

Victor Frankl was psychiatrist who was sent to Auschwitz during WWII and lost his entire family. He wrote one of the great books of all time. A book I recommend to all of my students and now to you. Man's Search for Meaning.

Frankl concludes that the meaning of life is found in every moment of living; life never ceases to have meaning, even in suffering and death. In a group therapy session during a mass fast inflicted on the camp's inmates trying to protect an anonymous fellow inmate from fatal retribution by authorities, Frankl offered the thought that for everyone in a dire condition there is someone looking down, a friend, family member, or even God, who would expect not to be disappointed. Frankl concludes from his experience that a prisoner's psychological reactions are not solely the result of the conditions of his life, but also from the freedom of choice he always has even in severe suffering. The inner hold a prisoner has on his spiritual self relies on having a hope in the future, and that once a prisoner loses that hope, he is doomed.

Wikipedia

An example of Frankl's idea of finding meaning in the midst of extreme suffering is found in his account of an experience he had while working in the harsh conditions of the Auschwitz concentration camp:

... We stumbled on in the darkness, over big stones and through large puddles, along the one road leading from the camp. The accompanying guards kept shouting at us and driving us with the butts of their rifles. Anyone with very sore feet supported himself on his neighbor's arm. Hardly a word was spoken; the icy wind did not encourage talk. Hiding his mouth behind his upturned collar, the man marching next to me whispered suddenly: "If our wives could see us now! I do hope they are better off in their camps and don't know what is happening to us."

That brought thoughts of my own wife to mind. And as we stumbled on for miles, slipping on icy spots, supporting each other time and again, dragging one another up and onward, nothing was said, but we both knew: each of us was thinking of his wife. Occasionally I looked at the sky, where the stars were fading and the pink light of the morning was beginning to spread behind a dark bank of clouds. But my mind clung to my wife's image, imagining it with an uncanny acuteness. I heard her answering me, saw her smile, her frank and encouraging look. Real or not, her look was then more luminous than the sun which was beginning to rise.
A thought transfixed me: for the first time in my life I saw the truth as it is set into song by so many poets, proclaimed as the final wisdom by so many thinkers. The truth – that love is the ultimate and the highest goal to which man can aspire. Then I grasped the meaning of the greatest secret that human poetry and human thought and belief have to impart: The salvation of man is through love and in love. I understood how a man who has nothing left in this world still may know bliss, be it only for a brief moment, in the contemplation of his beloved. In a position of utter desolation, when man cannot express himself in positive action, when his only achievement may consist in enduring his sufferings in the right way – an honorable way – in such a position man can, through loving contemplation of the image he carries of his beloved, achieve fulfillment. For the first time in my life I was able to understand the meaning of the words, "The angels are lost in perpetual contemplation of an infinite glory....

Is Steve Jobs a powerful and influential person? In my view he is an abject failure. He Told his biographer:

In one of their writing sessions, Isaacson asked why Jobs had finally agreed to co-operate for a biography. "I wanted my kids to know me," he replied. "I wasn't always there for them, and I wanted them to know why, and to understand what I did."

His kids didn't know him. That man is a FU**KING FAILURE. There is nothing more important that, not the Macintosh, the Ipod, Iphone, etc......

The poet wrote:

Birth is a Beginning and
Death is a destination,
but life is a journey.

The journey has to be lived and not worked. Nothing is more important than the woman and children waiting for you at the end of the day. No amount of money, fame or accolade and replace love.

As for immortality and being remembered. You can only live on through your children if you are there to love them, guide them and influence them. They are your immortality.....

 

[farmadiazepine]

Do you seriously have to ask this question? Really? The answer should be obvious to you.
I am know almost 55 years old. No matter how you do the math there is more of my life behind me than ahead of me. Everyday when I log onto the website for the local paper, the obits show up. Do you want your obituary to read "Director of Pharmacy at ABC Hospital" I want my obituary to read "Husband, Father, Friend...." Being a Pharmacist defines you? It's your vocation. It's how you provide food and shelter for your family. The most important thing about your job is that it provides enough money without costing too much time and you don't hate doing it.

Every minute you spend away from your children when they are little can NEVER be recaptured. You can't make it up to them with things. I don't buy this quality time thing. It's the amount of time you spend with your family that's important. You cannot put a price on reading your kids a bedtime story and tucking them in.

To give you a pop culture perspective:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s5r2spPJ8g[/YOUTUBE]

Victor Frankl was psychiatrist who was sent to Auschwitz during WWII and lost his entire family. He wrote one of the great books of all time. A book I recommend to all of my students and now to you. Man's Search for Meaning.

Wikipedia





Is Steve Jobs a powerful and influential person? In my view he is an abject failure. He Told his biographer:


His kids didn't know him. That man is a FU**KING FAILURE. There is nothing more important that, not the Macintosh, the Ipod, Iphone, etc......

The poet wrote:

Birth is a Beginning and
Death is a destination,
but life is a journey.

The journey has to be lived and not worked. Nothing is more important than the woman and children waiting for you at the end of the day. No amount of money, fame or accolade and replace love.

As for immortality and being remembered. You can only live on through your children if you are there to love them, guide them and influence them. They are your immortality.....

Although I normally hate what this guy writes and his love for CVS, I think this is an awesome post. Definitely family is the most important thing, and you work so you can provide for them.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Although I normally hate what this guy writes and his love for CVS, I think this is an awesome post. Definitely family is the most important thing, and you work so you can provide for them.

Totally agree. I missed out on two years of my daughter's life because I was going to pharmacy school in another city. I was doing it for her, and had no idea (of course) that she would die at the age of 4, leaving me feeling like I missed half of her life. I will never again prioritize work over family. Just not going to happen.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Do you seriously have to ask this question? Really? The answer should be obvious to you.

Victor Frankl was psychiatrist who was sent to Auschwitz during WWII and lost his entire family. He wrote one of the great books of all time. A book I recommend to all of my students and now to you. Man's Search for Meaning.

Wikipedia

The journey has to be lived and not worked. Nothing is more important than the woman and children waiting for you at the end of the day. No amount of money, fame or accolade and replace love.

As for immortality and being remembered. You can only live on through your children if you are there to love them, guide them and influence them. They are your immortality.....

Actually, "what is the meaning and goal of life" is a question that nobody has been able to answer since the first human began to ponder it, I don't see how you can say the answer is obvious.

Take a look just how many different views and philosophers had tried to tackle it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life

I happen to more or less a subscriber to the To_realize_one's_potential_and_ideals camp.

And I had read Viktor Frankl's book, I even own a copy. He is the 3rd school of psychotherapy. But just like Freudian and Adler's school of thoughts, it's another attempt and just as incomplete. The human mind is far too complex than any single concept could to cover.

And I can't agree with categorical claim that "nothing is more important than women and children waiting for you at end of the day". That would make all non-martial or non-reproductive lives meaningless. If that's what you build your life around, then more power to you. But as I look at the animal kingdom, there are plenty of animals that bond more deeply and reproduce more successfully than humans. If that's what the goal of my life is, then I would find it quite pointless. I rather think that what elevate men above other animals, our urge to create/destroy/change the world to our will in a tangible and lasting way, is also what makes our lives more meaningful than just living/existing.

But that's just another school of thought out of hundreds, if not thousands. I'm not saying that family is not important. Family is important, but I don't agree that it's always the most important thing in life. There can be things great than any individual, or family, or life itself.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Actually, "what is the meaning and goal of life" is a question that nobody has been able to answer since the first human began to ponder it, I don't see how you can say the answer is obvious.

I can.

Life has no intrinsic meaning.

You're welcome.

Also, in before someone used the ridiculous phrase "life-work balance."

 

[BMBiology]

When is having ambition so bad? Only he and his family know what is best for them.

I learned to be independent because both of my parents had to work all of the time.

 

[Old Timer]

Actually, "what is the meaning and goal of life" is a question that nobody has been able to answer since the first human began to ponder it, I don't see how you can say the answer is obvious.

In my humble opinion, the answer is painfully obvious. To choose work/accomplishment over your family makes you a fool, sorry.

Take a look just how many different views and philosophers had tried to tackle it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life

I happen to more or less a subscriber to the To_realize_one's_potential_and_ideals camp.

And I had read Viktor Frankl's book, I even own a copy. He is the 3rd school of psychotherapy. But just like Freudian and Adler's school of thoughts, it's another attempt and just as incomplete. The human mind is far too complex than any single concept could to cover.

I suggest you read it again. I'm not saying logotherpay is the be all and end all. I'm saying his statement about what is important is spot on.

And I can't agree with categorical claim that "nothing is more important than women and children waiting for you at end of the day". That would make all non-martial or non-reproductive lives meaningless.

You are way to smart to make that argument. I don't advocate being an ascetic. I argue that there are no material things more important than your family.

If that's what you build your life around, then more power to you. But as I look at the animal kingdom, there are plenty of animals that bond more deeply and reproduce more successfully than humans. If that's what the goal of my life is, then I would find it quite pointless. I rather think that what elevate men above other animals, our urge to create/destroy/change the world to our will in a tangible and lasting way, is also what makes our lives more meaningful than just living/existing.

I do look at the animal kingdom and I do view man on a different plane than other animals. Animals have no meaning to their life. A cow does not look for deep meaning. I understand man's need to create and subdue the universe. It's controlling that impulse that separates man from animal. Ben Zoma long ago asked:

1. Ben Zoma would say: Who is wise? One who learns from every man. As is stated (Psalms 119:99): "From all my teachers I have grown wise, for Your testimonials are my meditation."

Who is strong? One who overpowers his inclinations. As is stated (Proverbs 16:32), "Better one who is slow to anger than one with might, one who rules his spirit than the captor of a city."

Who is rich? One who is satisfied with his lot. As is stated (Psalms 128:2): "If you eat of toil of your hands, fortunate are you, and good is to you"; "fortunate are you" in this world, "and good is to you" in the World to Come.

Who is honorable? One who honors his fellows. As is stated (I Samuel 2:30): "For to those who honor me, I accord honor; those who scorn me shall be demeaned."

Pirke Avot 4A

But that's just another school of thought out of hundreds, if not thousands. I'm not saying that family is not important. Family is important, but I don't agree that it's always the most important thing in life. There can be things great than any individual, or family, or life itself.

Look it's your life. You invited us to opine and so I did. Make a note of this day. If you choose your job over your family, you will come to regret it. Life is short and precious as I am well aware. My father died when I was 13. A4MD can testify about the challenges of life. You don't know what's waiting around the corner.

By the way, you are creating something when you spend time with your kids, you're creating your legacy. They will not remember the extra toys you gave them or the bigger house or the fancy cars. They will remember the moments you shared with them and they will spend the time with their kids and so on. Memory is more valuable as Frankl pointed out than any material thing. Memory endures longer and is less subject to the second law of thermodynamics than any material thing. When Steve Jobs was dying he didn't spend more time at Apple, he spent more time at home. By your way of thinking the richer and more famous you are the better you are and this is a load of crap.

 

[owlegrad]

Lot of judging going on here. For all any of you know it might be better for his wife and kids for him to work more.

lick lick lick

 

[xiphoid2010]

Old timer dude. You are obviously oblivious to all the different schools of thoughts and philosophies out there, and just stuck on one. I'm not going to waste my time going back on forth on a question that the entire human kind has failed to agree on an answer for the last 10,000 years. You are welcome to live your life based on your beliefs, I will continue to weigh my family as a part of the whole picture when making life choices, and with no absolutism.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Lot of judging going on here. For all any of you know it might be better for his wife and kids for him to work more.

My wife is a very supportive woman and I love her dearly. We discusses life and goals often before marriage, and still do. She was just as ambitious as I was, came to this country almost nothing, worked under the table full time to pay for undergrad and got into a top 10 pharmacy school. She supported my residency, urged me forward when I was burnt out. Gave her opinion for us to take a chance relocating to Texas for a leadership position, instead of play safe taking a clinical job at the VA. Before our son was born, her plan was to open and expand her own pharmacies, at which point me being a DOP would have played a supportive role to enable her ambition.

Having children definitely has definitely shifted her focus, with all things keeping her busy. She hasn't worked towards the pharmacy plan for quite some a while now, but she still very supportive of me going after whatever I wish to achieve. Great woman, glad to have her stand by me shoulder o shoulder.

 

[owlegrad]

My wife is a very supportive woman and I love her dearly. We discusses life and goals often before marriage, and still do. She was just as ambitious as I was, came to this country almost nothing, worked under the table full time to pay for undergrad and got into a top 10 pharmacy school. She supported my residency, urged me forward when I was burnt out. Gave her opinion for us to take a chance relocating to Texas for a leadership position, instead of play safe taking a clinical job at the VA. Before our son was born, her plan was to open and expand her own pharmacies, at which point me being a DOP would have played a supportive role to enable her ambition.

Having children definitely has definitely shifted her focus, with all things keeping her busy. She hasn't worked towards the pharmacy plan for quite some a while now, but she still very supportive of me going after whatever I wish to achieve. Great woman, glad to have her stand by me shoulder o shoulder.

You sound like a very lucky man.

 

[wucool33]

Just two questions:

1. Why did you ask this question in the first place if you already have your mind made up? Just like your other topics, you just end up arguing with people.

2. Sounds like your wife is giving up her dreams for family and you... Why did you decide to have a second child when family is clearly not the most important thing for you? Now your wife has no chance of pursuing her dreams and your kids will grow up without a father figure... What were you thinking?

 

[awval999]

Just two questions:

1. Why did you ask this question in the first place if you already have your mind made up? Just like your other topics, you just end up arguing with people.

2. Sounds like your wife is giving up her dreams for family and you... Why did you decide to have a second child when family is clearly not the most important thing for you? Now your wife has no chance of pursuing her dreams and your kids will grow up without a father figure... What were you thinking?

He doesn't care. His family comes second.

The most important thing to him is his career, he has already stated this.

 

[mustang sally]

I can.

Life has no intrinsic meaning.

You're welcome.

Also, in before someone used the ridiculous phrase "life-work balance."

Exactly. Therefore, the meaning of life is whatever you want it to be.

Do you ever use intuition, Xiphoid? (You kind of seem like someone who would rationalize everything out). Go with your gut.

 

[Old Timer]

Old timer dude. You are obviously oblivious to all the different schools of thoughts and philosophies out there, and just stuck on one. I'm not going to waste my time going back on forth on a question that the entire human kind has failed to agree on an answer for the last 10,000 years. You are welcome to live your life based on your beliefs, I will continue to weigh my family as a part of the whole picture when making life choices, and with no absolutism.

You are free to do as you please. As I pointed out earlier. You asked us into your world.

 

[xiphoid2010]

You are free to do as you please. As I pointed out earlier. You asked us into your world.

I asked if anyone else can think of any pros/cons/undecided points I might have missed between the two career options. The cost-benefit equation of work vs family is for me and my wife to calculate.

And most people take a moderate approach, sacrifice some family or career based on cost-benefit ratio of the exchange. So please save you "family is the meaning/goal of life" lectures.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Just two questions:

1. Why did you ask this question in the first place if you already have your mind made up? Just like your other topics, you just end up arguing with people.

2. Sounds like your wife is giving up her dreams for family and you... Why did you decide to have a second child when family is clearly not the most important thing for you? Now your wife has no chance of pursuing her dreams and your kids will grow up without a father figure... What were you thinking?

1. I didn't ask this question. The only input I asked for was if there are any addition pros and cons between the 2 career options. Then some people got on the "family is always more important" holy crusade. My decision, as usual, will be a logical calculation of the cost-benefit ratio. If my mind was made up as you insisted, then I wouldn't have called back for an interview. So you are wrong there. I don't go for absolutism, and think categorically rule out options based on some dogma is irrational.

2. She wanted a daughter, I was neutral on how many kids to have within reason. Again, like many who subcribes to the meaning of life is "to realize one's potential and ideals", I don't hold family as the one thing that automatically trumps all others.

Then here you go again, judging my family "my wife has no choice" or "kids has no father figure?" What do you know of my family? My wife has just as much power in the family as I do, if not more. She run her life the way she wants. Before children, her calculations favored career over family. After children, her equation shifted more weight to that side. And no father figure? LOL. You really think I don't play with my kids after work or on the weekends? Just because I average work 10 hr a day doesn't mean I'm not a father figure.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Exactly. Therefore, the meaning of life is whatever you want it to be.

Do you ever use intuition, Xiphoid? (You kind of seem like someone who would rationalize everything out). Go with your gut.

Exactly, as pointed out, there are hundreds of schools of thought on the meaning of life, and it's whichever you want to go with.

I have intuitions, but usually ignores them. I always preferred the comfort in making decisions based on logical/rational process. I love quantifiable data and being able to calculate things out. When comes to big decisions, I always prefer to over analyze. It slows down the decision making process sometimes, but it ends up to making more correct choices.

 

[PharmDstudent]

Enough with all the debating! LTACHs are awesome... end of discussion.

 

[awval999]

I'm gonna give Xiphoid a break here.

We all went to pharmacy school. A lot of people--- lets use the rural Midwest or South would be using the same attacks some are in this thread.

"College? Oh too good to go work and start a family?"

To be honest I have high school classmates already with 3 or 4 children living in my rural hometown living our their life in a $100k 4 bed house. They will never get to experience the traveling I do, the higher self-actualization of my job compared to theirs. Doesn't make me life "better" than theirs, just different.

Maybe Xiphoid wants a higher self-actualization in his career. His wife is on board--- or at least not putting her foot down. Maybe he wants to be in the pharmacy magazines or etc, etc. Yeah, its different than what I would choose. But others would never choose college, or never choose hospital practice, etc.

I personally agree with some of the---- I won't call them attack---- but "concerns" in this thread. But come on.... to act like he doesn't play with his kids when he gets home and etc, etc is too far.

 

[BMBiology]

And what is wrong with a $100 k house? You elitist jerk!

 

[wucool33]

1. I didn't ask this question. The only input I asked for was if there are any addition pros and cons between the 2 career options. Then some people got on the "family is always more important" holy crusade. My decision, as usual, will be a logical calculation of the cost-benefit ratio. If my mind was made up as you insisted, then I wouldn't have called back for an interview. So you are wrong there. I don't go for absolutism, and think categorically rule out options based on some dogma is irrational.

2. She wanted a daughter, I was neutral on how many kids to have within reason. Again, like many who subcribes to the meaning of life is "to realize one's potential and ideals", I don't hold family as the one thing that automatically trumps all others.

Then here you go again, judging my family "my wife has no choice" or "kids has no father figure?" What do you know of my family? My wife has just as much power in the family as I do, if not more. She run her life the way she wants. Before children, her calculations favored career over family. After children, her equation shifted more weight to that side. And no father figure? LOL. You really think I don't play with my kids after work or on the weekends? Just because I average work 10 hr a day doesn't mean I'm not a father figure.

1. If you didn't have your mind made up, then why did you start arguing with people that said family should be the number 1 priority? Why can't you just take that into consideration and be done with it?

2. I didn't judge you or your family. What I said are all logical observations. First of all, don't put words in my mouth. I never said your wife didn't have a choice, I simply said she picked family over career for you. The reason I said your kids won't have a father figure is simple... 1. You had asked a question before on if you should get a PRN job on the weekends for more "playing money". Others at the time already told you maybe you should stay at home on the weekends with your new born, since you won't get that time back again and you already make enough between you and your wife. You went out and got that PRN job anyway (so how are you playing with your kids on the weekends again?). 2. You said you want to be like Rockefeller and be remembered... At this point in your life, if you still want to achieve anything close to that, work won't end when you go home. 3. I think you are the type of person that will keep wanting more, which is fine (I actually want to be a little more like you), but you'll just have less time for everything else.

In the end, I guess it won't matter that much. My dad was getting his PhD in another city for a large chuck of my childhood, but I still love him all the same... So I guess you don't have to spend too much time with your kids.

 

[vistaril]

I used Rockefeller as a name that others could instantly pickup and understand the point I'm trying to make. To achieve impact that Rockefeller did, of course, would be highly unlikely. However, you don't need to be Rockefeller to be remembered. When I was a medicinal chemist, R.B Woodward was a name few outside of the field heard of, but every chemist knew. For our profession, there are also pharmacists that will always be known for what they did for this profession.

There are many different philosophies of life, what's the meaning and what are the goals. I just happen to subscribe to one that derive meaning from contributions made beyond the personal life. But plenty of other philosophies out there, no one that's a right fit for all, of course.

ummm....with a mindset like this, why in the world did you pick pharmacy as a career?

 

[BMBiology]

Wucool, I sense some hostility in your post.

Not every child needs to have both parents' full attention. I don't think I am an exception to the rule. Both of my parents worked full time. They didn't have a choice really. I was pretty much on my own...me and my afternoon Disney cartoons (anybody remember ducktales? Talespin?).

But when I started college, I was way more independent and mature than my friends. I knew what I had to do and I did it. When I struggled with some of my classes, I learned how to adopt and how to do things differently. That's something my friends couldn't do.

 

[wucool33]

Wucool, I sense some hostility in your post.

Not every child needs to have both parents' full attention. I don't think I am an exception to the rule. Both of my parents worked full time. They didn't have a choice really. I was pretty much on my own...me and my afternoon Disney cartoons (anybody remember ducktales? Talespin?).

But when I started college, I was way more independent and mature than my friends. I knew what I had to do and I did it. When I struggled with some of my classes, I learned how to adopt and how to do things differently. That's something my friends couldn't do.

lol where did you sense the hostility? I even said I wanted to be more like him. I also said my dad was away for a few years when I was a kid and I turned out fine.

All I was saying was that it's basically impossible to balance family and work with that much ambition. I don't think anyone can deny that.

 

[Hello2000]

My mother was a very successful, hard nosed business woman. She owned many business but along the way she was very cold and distant towards me and my siblings.

Don't get me wrong, my brother, sister and I never wanted for anything, we had a somewhat privileged upbringing and had every latest toy, tennis racket and skateboard that was out there but looking back on my childhood, I would have given all the material trappings of my mother's success to have had a warmer, nurturing and more caring mother bringing me up during my formative years. She is 80 years old now and still, I don't believe, do we have a close mother/son relationship.

 

[PharmDstudent]

You know... I've given this some thought, and I believe the only people who will care that you're even a pharmacist (let alone that you're accomplished and whatnot) are friends and family. No one else will give it a second thought, and thus, the paradox - you end up sacrificing your family and friends to make your family and friends proud.

 

[rxlea]

I can.

Life has no intrinsic meaning.

You're welcome.

Also, in before someone used the ridiculous phrase "life-work balance."

This.

 

[Theta16]

I used Rockefeller as a name that others could instantly pickup and understand the point I'm trying to make. To achieve impact that Rockefeller did, of course, would be highly unlikely. However, you don't need to be Rockefeller to be remembered. When I was a medicinal chemist, R.B Woodward was a name few outside of the field heard of, but every chemist knew. For our profession, there are also pharmacists that will always be known for what they did for this profession.

There are many different philosophies of life, what's the meaning and what are the goals. I just happen to subscribe to one that derive meaning from contributions made beyond the personal life. But plenty of other philosophies out there, no one that's a right fit for all, of course.

You should really check out the History Channel series "The Men Who Built America." Nice overview of how important Rockefeller was to the American way of life as well as how crazy talented he was in business and a great history of Standard Oil.