American Medical School vs. Indian Medical School: are they comparable?

[asimhaqq00]

Are an undergraduate and medical degree from the US (7-8 years after high school) and a medical degree from India (4 years after high school) comparable? I don't mean in terms of the ability to be licensed in the United States, but in terms of the education itself.

What are the pros and cons of this system?

My question is, how do the schools in India pack what I believe should be an 7-8 year educational experience in 4 (please pardon my American arrogance)?

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[witzelsucht]

Sounds like you kinda answered your own question there.

In all seriousness, a big chunk of college is not really relevant to practicing medicine, and 4th year of MS in the US isn't all that fruitful.

 

[CDI]

Are an undergraduate and medical degree from the US (7-8 years after high school) and a medical degree from India (4 years after high school) comparable? I don't mean in terms of the ability to be licensed in the United States, but in terms of the education itself.

What are the pros and cons of this system?

My question is, how do the schools in India pack what I believe should be an 7-8 year educational experience in 4 (please pardon my American arrogance)?

I strongly advise against taking that route.

If you were to join in Fall of 2013, you would realistically not be able to in the match until Spring of 2021. This is if you pass on time, I'd say 75% of students from the US do not pass on time (meaning they take anwyhere from 6 months to 2-3 years longer to finish).

The MBBS program is 4.5 years + 1 year of internship. Ultimately, it works out to the same amount of time, and with the increase in US med students and no increase in residency slots, that's a very heavy gamble.

Re-entry to the US medical system is exponentially more difficult than it once was. It nearly closes off your chances of a competitive US residency. You won't have time to study for the US boards as you'll be too busy memorizing textbooks only to regurgitate them in essay format for yearly exams. Although you do interact with patients from early on, clinical integration is practically non-existant.

At the end of it all: The USMLEs + residency are the equalizer. Once you're practicing, no one seems to care much. It's just a hell of a lot to get through to get to that point. Stay in the US system.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Is the indian system faster than the 7-8 years required in the US? Sure.

Are you improving your chances of getting a US residency in the field of your choice at the location of your choice by going to a US medical school? Hell yes.

I would not recommend the Carribean to anyone who asked me for advice about matriculating into medical school. I would rather have them take a year or 2 off, do research, a post-bac, pump up their application, and re-apply.

 

[Medstart108]

Is the indian system faster than the 7-8 years required in the US? Sure.

Are you improving your chances of getting a US residency in the field of your choice at the location of your choice by going to a US medical school? Hell yes.

I would not recommend the Carribean to anyone who asked me for advice about matriculating into medical school. I would rather have them take a year or 2 off, do research, a post-bac, pump up their application, and re-apply.

He never even asked about the Carribbean...

 

[evilbooyaa]

He never even asked about the Carribbean...

Sorry, I would not recommend, at this point, a non-US medical school for anyone who wants to do a residency in the US

 

[CDI]

Is the indian system faster than the 7-8 years required in the US? Sure.

Are you improving your chances of getting a US residency in the field of your choice at the location of your choice by going to a US medical school? Hell yes.

I would not recommend the Carribean to anyone who asked me for advice about matriculating into medical school. I would rather have them take a year or 2 off, do research, a post-bac, pump up their application, and re-apply.

The Indian system can be faster...but the vast majority (even the ones who ultimately return to the US and destroy the boards >250-260+) are still held back. This point should be made VERY clear to students considering this jump.

The majority of students from the US will not clear on time. The number of graduates per class who finish in the allotted 5.5 years is somewhere between 60-75% in private med schools. 'Private' med schools are the ones that students from abroad are allowed to enter. It is mostly the students from the US who fall into that 25-40% of students who take extra time just to get their degree (6 to 10 years total.)

 

[sazerac]

The OP specifically said to ignore any licensure issues. They are just asking how it takes India half the time the USA does to educate a doctor. Are Indian doctors ignorant? Are USA undergrad + medical schools inefficient? Is medicine just a whole lot easier in India? etc.

To comment that IMGs will have a difficult time getting licensed in the USA misses the point of this thread entirely.

 

[asimhaqq00]

The OP specifically said to ignore any licensure issues. They are just asking how it takes India half the time the USA does to educate a doctor. Are Indian doctors ignorant? Are USA undergrad + medical schools inefficient? Is medicine just a whole lot easier in India? etc.

To comment that IMGs will have a difficult time getting licensed in the USA misses the point of this thread entirely.

Thank you. I understand the residency difficulties, I was asking mainly about the quality of education.

 

[asimhaqq00]

The majority of students from the US will not clear on time. The number of graduates per class who finish in the allotted 5.5 years is somewhere between 60-75% in private med schools. 'Private' med schools are the ones that students from abroad are allowed to enter. It is mostly the students from the US who fall into that 25-40% of students who take extra time just to get their degree (6 to 10 years total.)

You bring up an important point. Why is that US students in Indian medical schools take so long to complete? What is it about Indian medical school that makes it so difficult for them to adjust? Also I didn't realize that US students were not allowed to go into government medical colleges in india.

 

[link2swim06]

You bring up an important point. Why is that US students in Indian medical schools take so long to complete? What is it about Indian medical school that makes it so difficult for them to adjust? Also I didn't realize that US students were not allowed to go into government medical colleges in india.

Becuase US students get an undergrad degree on top of a medical degree. Of course it takes longer.

When done I will have a degree in biology and a MD. An indian student would only have a medical degree.

 

[CDI]

The OP specifically said to ignore any licensure issues. They are just asking how it takes India half the time the USA does to educate a doctor. Are Indian doctors ignorant? Are USA undergrad + medical schools inefficient? Is medicine just a whole lot easier in India? etc.

To comment that IMGs will have a difficult time getting licensed in the USA misses the point of this thread entirely.

It was mentioned already that US undergrad plays very little role in the making of a doctor. The only benefit in the US I can see with doing undergrad first, is having that college experience, and ramping up with pre-med to the studying required in med school (which is probably still nowhere close). Also, the older age of joining (~23-24) med school in the US, may prove that candidates really know what they want prior to applying. In India, there are some as young as 17 who are joining and have spent the last 2 years taking classes specifically for that purpose. (In other words, they decided their professional track when they were as young as 14-15.)

Indian doctors are relied upon heavily by the US medical system as we've seen for decades. So I don't think there's an issue of ignorance there. It's no longer a matter of one system vs another. One could even say it would actually be "easier" to get through medical school in the US just by looking at the admissions rates and pass rates alone for Indian med schools. There have been years where in certain states of India 80-100,000 students apply...and only 3-4,000 get in. Out of those who do get in, only 60-75% pass on time. Those pass/fail rates are set. The competition is fairly steep as you are constantly graded against your peers throughout the course.

 

[Cali2]

The point of the current US higher education system is not about just getting you to the endpoint of 'practicing physician' as fast as possible. You do the undergraduate degree to (hopefully) expand other interests - that's why people go to liberal arts colleges where you spend time taking classes across a broad range of topics that will likely have nothing to do with your future career. Or, you can get additional focused training in science/research to better incorporate this with your medical career.

My understanding is that the programs in India will have to be entirely medicine and 'what you need to know for medicine' focused. You likely get very good at a more limited skill set, more quickly. Not saying this is the wrong way to do it, but it is a different approach.

 

[CDI]

You bring up an important point. Why is that US students in Indian medical schools take so long to complete? What is it about Indian medical school that makes it so difficult for them to adjust? Also I didn't realize that US students were not allowed to go into government medical colleges in india.

US students were allowed to go to govt medical colleges in India in the past, however, many have since closed that option. That being said, there are still many private colleges which are respectable (the profs are usually former profs from govt med schools).

US students take longer for a variety of reasons.

The most blatant issue is that of the anti-US (student) sentiment, which for some reason still plays a big role and can really affect the outcomes. This is both among fellow students, professors and ultimately the outside examiners whom decide your fate every year.

Secondly, the learning style and examination styles are very different. Lectures and class-time doesn't do much for us. The reason is because the yearly exams are not tested in a way that lectures can truly be helpful. At the end of the day, that is all anyone is worried about...passing those exams and moving on. So, most of your time you spend memorizing books, front to back, to reproduce it on the exam, not just the words but also with drawings. This essay format of exams is very difficult to get used to. These hurdles alone usually causes an immediate loss of 6 months after first year. The students never have a chance to recover with their peers because those who fail first year are placed in a second group of students for the entire 4.5 year course thereafter. Usually this consists of anywhere from 10-15 students. They are further labeled as the "Referred" batch. That alone can really affect a student from a psychological standpoint.

Further, while medicine is taught, read and written in English, students will often times discuss medicine in their native tongue, and patients will only speak in the native tongue. This is minor if someone is fluent in both languages, but if someone is from the US, chances are they most likely will have a learning curve to deal with initially.

Lastly, its a lifestyle adjustment; you are 8,000 miles from the place you called home for 18 yrs. That affects your academic life as well and the ability to cope with the new environment.

 

[CDI]

Becuase US students get an undergrad degree on top of a medical degree. Of course it takes longer.

When done I will have a degree in biology and a MD. An indian student would only have a medical degree.

I think you misunderstood their question.

They are asking why students from the US, who join Indian med schools, after high school, take longer on average than their Indian peers to finish at the same institutes.

I've explained some of the reasons above.

 

[Donald Juan]

I think you misunderstood their question.

They are asking why students from the US, who join Indian med schools, after high school, take longer on average than their Indian peers to finish at the same institutes.

I've explained some of the reasons above.

I think you've misunderstood the question. OP was wondering if the 8 years of undergrad + med school in the U.S. was better or just less efficient than a 4 year medical degree from India.

However, thanks to your posts on the topic I think it might have answered a lot of the question.

For one thing, we know that a lot of undergraduate things aren't necessary for med school. I have business and music majors in my class who, while may be at some disadvantages, are overall doing just fine academically. The true requirements for undergrad would take less than two years if one went to school just for that. The rest of the time is unnecessary for anything other than proving oneself. CDI said above that there are high attrition rates and low acceptance rates for Indian med schools. I don't think this proves that they are any "harder," given the weeding out process of U.S. undergrad programs. I went to a no-name state school that puts out about 5-10 med students a year, compared to 800-1000 students that identify as pre-med when they enter freshman year. I'm sure there is even more students who are considering medicine that just don't identify themselves. I don't think that students at more prestigious schools have such a high attrition rate, but it still has to be there. Of course, once we get into med school, we are almost guaranteed to pass.

Ultimately, yes, the U.S. system is obviously inefficient, but I don't think it is designed strictly for efficiency. I think the goal here is to get well rounded, mature people into medicine who will have a life long commitment to their job. I know it doesn't always work out that way, but it seems to be our goal.

 

[CDI]

I think you've misunderstood the question. OP was wondering if the 8 years of undergrad + med school in the U.S. was better or just less efficient than a 4 year medical degree from India.

However, thanks to your posts on the topic I think it might have answered a lot of the question.

For one thing, we know that a lot of undergraduate things aren't necessary for med school. I have business and music majors in my class who, while may be at some disadvantages, are overall doing just fine academically. The true requirements for undergrad would take less than two years if one went to school just for that. The rest of the time is unnecessary for anything other than proving oneself. CDI said above that there are high attrition rates and low acceptance rates for Indian med schools. I don't think this proves that they are any "harder," given the weeding out process of U.S. undergrad programs. I went to a no-name state school that puts out about 5-10 med students a year, compared to 800-1000 students that identify as pre-med when they enter freshman year. I'm sure there is even more students who are considering medicine that just don't identify themselves. I don't think that students at more prestigious schools have such a high attrition rate, but it still has to be there. Of course, once we get into med school, we are almost guaranteed to pass.

Ultimately, yes, the U.S. system is obviously inefficient, but I don't think it is designed strictly for efficiency. I think the goal here is to get well rounded, mature people into medicine who will have a life long commitment to their job. I know it doesn't always work out that way, but it seems to be our goal.

I understood the question just fine, and OP also asked the Pros & Cons - which I decided to address as well. Simple answer to the first question is obviously, "They don't pack in a 7-8 year experience into 4 years. It's apples to oranges." Which I guess, looking back, no one had actually answered till now. And now looking at OP's original question, I realized that the question itself isn't accurate, as there is no "4 year" medical degree program in India, unless they are referring to the hybrid India/Carribbean/US programs, in which case I'm not sure the exact length.

My previous response about the poster not understanding that last question, was in regards to a specific concern of the OP about why US students have difficulty finishing on-time. The poster did not answer or address this question, and instead answered the original question at hand. Please see that statement for clarification.

Regarding admissions/pass out rates, etc. I was just giving an example of how difficult it is to get in & out. Obviously med school itself is tough, and comparing the two is difficult, and not really fair. It ultimately comes down to what one is looking for and what their final goals are. The two systems are still two very different beasts. However, we can lay out what we do know.

In the US it is VERY difficult to get in, no doubt about it. However, the pass rates are practically automatic as you've mentioned. And yes, the "weeder" system starts picking people off early in undergrad, so by time of admissions the competition is already extremely high. However, in the US, many take an extra 1-2 years, to pad their resume, and then get in. Many even much older decide to join med school.

The Indian entrance is essentially based off of one entrance exam. Students join into the chosen track at the age of 15. They can't do a liberal arts degree or major in poli sci if they choose to TRY to get into medicine. They are strictly in a medical/paramedical track for the 2 years prior to taking the medical entrance exam. All 70-100,000 (each state is different) students then take that exam and it ultimately ranks you into which school you will attend, if at all (depending on the state). As you can imagine, the majority do not get in. Further, there is no such option to enter med school at a later age. You can not go back and do the pre-req 2 years, and there is in fact an age limit in place.

Now as you can probably imagine, the admissions process for a student from the US is very different from the students who are from India, as there is a quota alloted to such students as well as students in India who are willing to pay a much higher tuition rate (10-20x cost of tuition for a top ranking student, which essentially floats the institution costs and is vital to their existence). Among other things, your HS grades, SAT scores, etc may be taken into account at a more respectable institution.

Also, I think you hit on an important point: I think the goal here is to get well rounded, mature people into medicine... is something which is lacking in the Indian system and could certainly be seen as an improvement.

 

[link2swim06]

I understood the question just fine, and OP also asked the Pros & Cons - which I decided to address as well. Simple answer to the first question is obviously, "They don't pack in a 7-8 year experience into 4 years. It's apples to oranges." Which I guess, looking back, no one had actually answered till now. And now looking at OP's original question, I realized that the question itself isn't accurate, as there is no "4 year" medical degree program in India, unless they are referring to the hybrid India/Carribbean/US programs, in which case I'm not sure the exact length.

My previous response about the poster not understanding that last question, was in regards to a specific concern of the OP about why US students have difficulty finishing on-time. The poster did not answer or address this question, and instead answered the original question at hand. Please see that statement for clarification.

Regarding admissions/pass out rates, etc. I was just giving an example of how difficult it is to get in & out. Obviously med school itself is tough, and comparing the two is difficult, and not really fair. It ultimately comes down to what one is looking for and what their final goals are. The two systems are still two very different beasts. However, we can lay out what we do know.

In the US it is VERY difficult to get in, no doubt about it. However, the pass rates are practically automatic as you've mentioned. And yes, the "weeder" system starts picking people off early in undergrad, so by time of admissions the competition is already extremely high. However, in the US, many take an extra 1-2 years, to pad their resume, and then get in. Many even much older decide to join med school.

The Indian entrance is essentially based off of one entrance exam. Students join into the chosen track at the age of 15. They can't do a liberal arts degree or major in poli sci if they choose to TRY to get into medicine. They are strictly in a medical/paramedical track for the 2 years prior to taking the medical entrance exam. All 70-100,000 (each state is different) students then take that exam and it ultimately ranks you into which school you will attend, if at all (depending on the state). As you can imagine, the majority do not get in. Further, there is no such option to enter med school at a later age. You can not go back and do the pre-req 2 years, and there is in fact an age limit in place.

Now as you can probably imagine, the admissions process for a student from the US is very different from the students who are from India, as there is a quota alloted to such students as well as students in India who are willing to pay a much higher tuition rate (10-20x cost of tuition for a top ranking student, which essentially floats the institution costs and is vital to their existence). Among other things, your HS grades, SAT scores, etc may be taken into account at a more respectable institution.

Also, I think you hit on an important point: I think the goal here is to get well rounded, mature people into medicine... is something which is lacking in the Indian system and could certainly be seen as an improvement.

Gotcha, quoted the wrong post.

But to answer the OP's question I don't have a good metric to answer your question regarding quality.

I honestly don't even know the curriculum of Indian schools.

 

[Medstart108]

Becuase US students get an undergrad degree on top of a medical degree. Of course it takes longer.

When done I will have a degree in biology and a MD. An indian student would only have a medical degree.

That bachelor's is pretty much useless once you get your MD. Doctors don't even put it behind their name its just assumed if you have an MD you will have a bachelor's.

To be honest, i'd prefer if the US expanded its BSc/MD programs dramatically. I used to think the whole world did it like the US until i did the research. Most of the rest of the world do medicine straight from high school and drop out rates are in line with US medical schools.

 

[Law2Doc]

... Most of the rest of the world do medicine straight from high school and drop out rates are in line with US medical schools.

The straight from high school model preceded the US version and we intentionally rejected it as not creating the well rounded community leaders doctors are in the US today. In many countries doctors are not very well respected precisely because they are narrowly trained technicians. Part of the reason is it's really a trade school people jump into at 16-17. You show some aptitude in sciences as a tween, you can be a doctor. In the US you can go to college, take nothing science related, become very well rounded in arts and humanities and social sciences, plus have time to mature and "come of age", then can still do a postbac, and then at age 23+ after having looked at multiple career options and really thought things through, choose medicine. This generates a very different kind of professional. Its not "efficient", but in the US we consider this a decent way to vet someone for a learned profession. The guy in India who jumped into medical training at 16 might be very technically solid in his 20s, but he won't have explored many outside interests and often can't hold his own on topics unrelated to medicine. Since this is a service industry, not a science ( at least that's how it's practiced in the US), that's a real problem.

Also I think you are incorrect about "drop out rates". In the US because so many are weeded out by the prereqs and admissions, attrition is minuscule. In some European countries, where people jump into the field, the fail out rate is actually pretty high by comparison. So our system can be friendlier once you are in because you jumped through more hoops before you got there.

 

[lalalandas]

the most basic difference: An indian student has an MBBS after their four years. They have to go to school for another (i believe) 2-3 years to get an MD. If you add internship and residency to the mix, you don't have that big of a difference between the MD path in both countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_college_in_India

 

[PACERS14]

in my limited experience on the wards, the residents who are foreign grads are for the most part AT LEAST as good as their american graduating collegues

 

[CDI]

the most basic difference: An indian student has an MBBS after their four years. They have to go to school for another (i believe) 2-3 years to get an MD. If you add internship and residency to the mix, you don't have that big of a difference between the MD path in both countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_college_in_India

No...

You do not get a MBBS degree after 4 years, you get a provisional MBBS registration so you can work at a teaching hospital for a year (under supervision). If you were to not complete your intern year, you would be walking away with no degree.

After that, you are awarded your MBBS degree at the completion of your intern year, 5.5 years total. Once you get your MBBS degree you are a licensed physician and can practice on your own. Once you are ECFMG certified, you are eligible to write "MD" on official correspondence as it is then deemed equivalent.

In the US, after 4 years, you can't practice but you do have a MD. After a year PG-Y1, you can practice/work at places, but you won't be board eligible.

 

[CDI]

Most of the rest of the world do medicine straight from high school and drop out rates are in line with US medical schools.

Drop out rates might be in line, but the number of people who PASS on time is much lower in other countries. Something which is unheard of in the US, except maybe that 5th yr/Van Wilder/double major case we occasionally hear of in undergrad.

People can be held back for 6 months to multiple years in med school overseas. Some people take 10 years just to get through med school, but technically they are still not dropping out.

 

[K31]

Drop out rates might be in line, but the number of people who PASS on time is much lower in other countries. Something which is unheard of in the US, except maybe that 5th yr/Van Wilder/double major case we occasionally hear of in undergrad.

People can be held back for 6 months to multiple years in med school overseas. Some people take 10 years just to get through med school, but technically they are still not dropping out.

Taking longer to complete medical school isn't unheard of in the US. I have multiple classmates who had to repeat a year of school, and two of them took 7 years to finish their MD.

 

[chrispobl]

I understand that this thread is focused on Indian medical education vs. US medical education, however, I hope my experiences help.

I attended a US college for undergrad, but I didn't actually finish because I wasn't able to afford my college education at the time, which is why I decided to attend school in Mexico. In my experience, undergrad is, like many of you mentioned, an opportunity to expand your academic, and in some cases, personal horizons, however, what I learned in one year of undergrad wasn´t as usuful once I started med school in Mexico. I am currently a med student at a recognized public university in Mexico (National Polytecnic Institute). Students here are not required to have a BS/BA degree before attending medical school and therefore, most start very young. (Very similar to India). The only difference between med school in Mexico and in India is that med school in Mexico is 7 years long. (2 years of core medical sciences, 3 years of clinical sciences, 1 year as a pregraduate intern, and 1 year of public service as a physician). In terms of curriculum, it is all very similar, if not the same. (My US med school friends and I know basically the same information, except in a different language). I assume it is virtually the same in India. As for the amount of years it takes to become a good physician, in my opinion, it all depends on the student. In India it may be 4 years, but it could take you 5, in Mexico it may be 7, but it could take you 10. It all depends on how much effort you put in learning the material and understanding the profession.

IMG's may or may not have a disadvantage in the US residency match, but the US is known to be one of the most open countries in terms of training IMG's and allowing them to practice medicine in their hospitals. Of course, you have to get certified by ECFMG and take the USMLE. It is a tedious process, but it will all depend on you and how hard you try to get that match.

 

[link2swim06]

I understand that this thread is focused on Indian medical education vs. US medical education, however, I hope my experiences help.

I attended a US college for undergrad, but I didn't actually finish because I wasn't able to afford my college education at the time, which is why I decided to attend school in Mexico. In my experience, undergrad is, like many of you mentioned, an opportunity to expand your academic, and in some cases, personal horizons, however, what I learned in one year of undergrad wasn´t as usuful once I started med school in Mexico. I am currently a med student at a recognized public university in Mexico (National Polytecnic Institute). Students here are not required to have a BS/BA degree before attending medical school and therefore, most start very young. (Very similar to India). The only difference between med school in Mexico and in India is that med school in Mexico is 7 years long. (2 years of core medical sciences, 3 years of clinical sciences, 1 year as a pregraduate intern, and 1 year of public service as a physician). In terms of curriculum, it is all very similar, if not the same. (My US med school friends and I know basically the same information, except in a different language). I assume it is virtually the same in India. As for the amount of years it takes to become a good physician, in my opinion, it all depends on the student. In India it may be 4 years, but it could take you 5, in Mexico it may be 7, but it could take you 10. It all depends on how much effort you put in learning the material and understanding the profession.

IMG's may or may not have a disadvantage in the US residency match, but the US is known to be one of the most open countries in terms of training IMG's and allowing them to practice medicine in their hospitals. Of course, you have to get certified by ECFMG and take the USMLE. It is a tedious process, but it will all depend on you and how hard you try to get that match.

The key difference about the US is everyone who practices in the US did residency in the US. This is why it's open to about any country's graduates. Everyone gets the same training before becoming an attending (resident level).

 

[Kinis]

the most basic difference: An indian student has an MBBS after their four years. They have to go to school for another (i believe) 2-3 years to get an MD. If you add internship and residency to the mix, you don't have that big of a difference between the MD path in both countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_college_in_India

the MS or MD degree is a higher postgraduate degree, representative of specialty training. The equivalent training in the US or Canada would be completion of a medical (post-graduate) degree.

.

 

[HectorBenit]

Are an undergraduate and medical degree from the US (7-8 years after high school) and a medical degree from India (4 years after high school) comparable? I don't mean in terms of the ability to be licensed in the United States, but in terms of the education itself.

Yes its compareable interms of education and ability both....Indian's education sytem may not better as compare to US,but when I am discussing about medical student's from both country we American growing with only allopathy but Indian are growing with allopathy+"Ayurveda" ( ayurvedic medicine is a system of traditional medicine native to Indian subcontinent and a form of alternative medicine.).They arre still stronglly believed their Ayurveda tharapy before Allopathy.

They are atleast know the basic treatment by the use of "Ayurveda".....I know all that becouse my father is a doctor and had spend 3 years to know indian "Ayurveda".


I know we American are creating new milestone in medical domain but Indian are strong in their basic knowledge.

 

[badasshairday]

Excuse me, but you have your info incorrect OP.

It is 5.5 years to MBBS in India. So it is 2.5 years shorter.

In India people do "junior" college in what we in America call 11th and 12th grade of high school. In that time those who want to do medicine take relevent courses such as biology, chemistry, physics, calfulus etc. Then after junior college they start medical school to obtain their bachelors in medicine (MBBS).

Basically in India, primary school (elementary through high school) is much more rigorous than in the USA (ie. taking USA equivalent of college chemistry in physics in what amounts to the 11th and 12th grade in the USA, as well as learning 3 languages). They also do not waste time with superfluous material such as art history class for someone who is going into medicine.

If you add the time of "junior" college to the time that it takes to obtain your MBBS, it is approx 7.5 years, however everything is started approxmately 2.5 years earlier age than in the USA. That is how you end up with Indian doctors completing there medical degree 3 years sooner than USA counterparts, age of 23 compared to age of 26.

SOURCE: I am Indian-American with family who are in college in India as well as family members who are physicans in India.

 

[Medstart108]

Excuse me, but you have your info incorrect OP.

It is 5.5 years to MBBS in India. So it is 2.5 years shorter.

In India people do "junior" college in what we in America call 11th and 12th grade of high school. In that time those who want to do medicine take relevent courses such as biology, chemistry, physics, calfulus etc. Then after junior college they start medical school to obtain their bachelors in medicine (MBBS).

Basically in India, primary school (elementary through high school) is much more rigorous than in the USA (ie. taking USA equivalent of college chemistry in physics in what amounts to the 11th and 12th grade in the USA, as well as learning 3 languages). They also do not waste time with superfluous material such as art history class for someone who is going into medicine.

If you add the time of "junior" college to the time that it takes to obtain your MBBS, it is approx 7.5 years, however everything is started approxmately 2-2.5 years earlier age than in the USA.

SOURCE: I am Indian-American with family who are in college in India as well as family members who are physicans in India.

Yeah i agree, man. Most people have no clue how intense high school is in India and China. Have you seen the picture of a whole class of Chinese students on IV drips so they can skip eating to study more?

Its a lot more competitive when your country has 1 billion + people all competing for some 100-130 schools.

I have a relative in China and she learning what i was learning 2 years younger.

 

[link2swim06]

Yeah i agree, man. Most people have no clue how intense high school is in India and China. Have you seen the picture of a whole class of Chinese students on IV drips so they can skip eating to study more?

Its a lot more competitive when your country has 1 billion + people all competing for some 100-130 schools.

I have a relative in China and she learning what i was learning 2 years younger.

I bet the culture is more intense but I highly doubt it is harder. I took all AP classes the last year or two of high school and certainly didn't see any foreign students at my undergrad with a significant leg up.

I'd guess the average classes are probably harder in china or india but if you are taking AP/college level classes it's going to be the same anywhere.

 

[The kitchen sink]

I bet the culture is more intense but I highly doubt it is harder. I took all AP classes the last year or two of high school and certainly didn't see any foreign students at my undergrad with a significant leg up.

I'd guess the average classes are probably harder in china or india but if you are taking AP/college level classes it's going to be the same anywhere.

I agree, whatever they learn 'earlier' doesn't seem to make too much of diff in undergrad. Maybe because of the differences in reading comprehension and initial language barrier. Of course, this does not apply to everyone.

 

[CDI]

I bet the culture is more intense but I highly doubt it is harder. I took all AP classes the last year or two of high school and certainly didn't see any foreign students at my undergrad with a significant leg up.

I'd guess the average classes are probably harder in china or india but if you are taking AP/college level classes it's going to be the same anywhere.

Majority of AP classes are a joke. Just a bunch of busy work with a couple of essays and projects thrown into the mix. Don't really do much in terms of enhancing your education other than taking up your free time. Hardly a step above your typical honors class, which is barely tougher than your regular class.

 

[CDI]

I agree, whatever they learn 'earlier' doesn't seem to make too much of diff in undergrad. Maybe because of the differences in reading comprehension and initial language barrier. Of course, this does not apply to everyone.

It's not really about what they learn earlier that helps them. It's the rigorous/strict system itself that is the difference maker, regardless of where they wind up in the world.

The US system is cake in terms of schooling up until med school. It has plenty of in-built distractions from the task at hand of learning/education, which we appropriately call 'living life'. That's fine, it keeps people sane.

The students abroad who ultimately make it, never really have any other life once they enter school and instead develop an insane work ethic very early on. That continues on into medicine.

 

[link2swim06]

Well AP classes are generally good for college credit. Do overseas students take doctoral level physics in junior high or something? If so, then why in the world are they taking intro to physics with me at the start of college?

It's not really about what they learn earlier that helps them. It's the rigorous/strict system itself that is the difference maker, regardless of where they wind up in the world.

The US system is cake in terms of schooling up until med school. It has plenty of in-built distractions from the task at hand of learning/education, which we appropriately call 'living life'. That's fine, it keeps people sane.

The students abroad who ultimately make it, never really have any other life once they enter school and instead develop an insane work ethic very early on. That continues on into medicine.

You can spend more time studying but that doesn't mean by any means you are smarter or a better student.

I went to a top 30 undergrad which had at least 10-20% foreign students. I assume those foreign students had to be in the top 1/4 of their classes to be able to come to the US and attend a good college. Needless to say, that 10-20% did not exclusively occupy the top 10-20% of my undergrad classes. Generally it was actually American students who were top of the curve intermixed with a few foreign students.

I am not saying foreign students are lazy or stupid. Far from that. My point is a 'strict' system is necessarily better nor produces better students. Memorizing !=understanding.

 

[CDI]

Well AP classes are generally good for college credit. Do overseas students take doctoral level physics in junior high or something? If so, then why in the world are they taking intro to physics with me at the start of college?



You can spend more time studying but that doesn't mean by any means you are smarter or a better student.

I went to a top 30 undergrad which had at least 10-20% foreign students. I assume those foreign students had to be in the top 1/4 of their classes to be able to come to the US and attend a good college. Needless to say, that 10-20% did not exclusively occupy the top 10-20% of my undergrad classes. Generally it was actually American students who were top of the curve intermixed with a few foreign students.

I am not saying foreign students are lazy or stupid. Far from that. My point is a 'strict' system is necessarily better nor produces better students. Memorizing !=understanding.

AP classes are technically good for college credit, but they shouldnt be. They are way easier than the actual college level courses, atleast thats how I felt. And students overseas don't have AP classes to place out of when they join, so that's not even an option for them.

Also, they are adjusting to a new lifestyle, and a new way of teaching/education. Students from the US go abroad and have difficulty as well (which I had mentioned earlier) so it shouldn't be surprising if some of them struggle early on. Many of these students are sniffing freedom for the first time in their life. What you won't find is them slacking off...the work ethic is engrained in their head. Now, whether their study methods are efficient is a different story all together.

Lastly, the students who do come from abroad are more likely to be from a wealthy household and do decent on the SAT but by no means are they going to be the smartest the country has to offer. Those students stay back in their own country.

 

[Medstart108]

I bet the culture is more intense but I highly doubt it is harder. I took all AP classes the last year or two of high school and certainly didn't see any foreign students at my undergrad with a significant leg up.

I'd guess the average classes are probably harder in china or india but if you are taking AP/college level classes it's going to be the same anywhere.

Its actually really interesting. In China there are 2 tiers of education. There is the standard Chinese track and then there are international schools that teach the US curriculum.

The foreign students you see in your college all did the US curriculum at an International school so they had it easy. They also tend to come from wealthy families because only wealthy families can afford to send their children to international schools (which are private). These parents know that if their child was to do standard Chinese curriculum they would have a very hard time getting into a university at all let alone a good one, so they send their children to do US curriculum in the hopes of getting into a US college.

The standard chinese curriculum is where the competition is much stronger. Students work all day and only stop to eat. They usually have long school days that don't end with that. Most have tutoring all night in order to stay ahead.

 

[RadOnc04]

Excuse me, but you have your info incorrect OP.

It is 5.5 years to MBBS in India. So it is 2.5 years shorter.

In India people do "junior" college in what we in America call 11th and 12th grade of high school. In that time those who want to do medicine take relevent courses such as biology, chemistry, physics, calfulus etc. Then after junior college they start medical school to obtain their bachelors in medicine (MBBS).

Basically in India, primary school (elementary through high school) is much more rigorous than in the USA (ie. taking USA equivalent of college chemistry in physics in what amounts to the 11th and 12th grade in the USA, as well as learning 3 languages). They also do not waste time with superfluous material such as art history class for someone who is going into medicine.

If you add the time of "junior" college to the time that it takes to obtain your MBBS, it is approx 7.5 years, however everything is started approxmately 2.5 years earlier age than in the USA. That is how you end up with Indian doctors completing there medical degree 3 years sooner than USA counterparts, age of 23 compared to age of 26.

SOURCE: I am Indian-American with family who are in college in India as well as family members who are physicans in India.

This type of thinking (bolded above), is the problem with that type of educational system. Where is the creativity? Where do students develop ingenuity? The bottom line is they don't because the system "cuts out" the "unnecessary" stuff like art/art history.

Who says this is unnecessary? The most successful physicians/scientists I have met are not the brightest or the "hardest" studiers . They are the most creative and look at problems in a new/distinct way.

This is the reason, why everyone can complain "how easy" the American system is, however, as a country, we produce more ingenuity in science/medicine than the rest of the world.

It also ensures our doctors aren't robots sent to destroy the future. They actually have interests/personalities.

Btw, I was a biology major but I took a lot of "unnecessary" art classes---and those people studying "hard science" the whole time, are the ones who burnt out before/in med school.

 

[RadOnc04]

AP classes are technically good for college credit, but they shouldnt be. They are way easier than the actual college level courses, atleast thats how I felt. And students overseas don't have AP classes to place out of when they join, so that's not even an option for them.

Also, they are adjusting to a new lifestyle, and a new way of teaching/education. Students from the US go abroad and have difficulty as well (which I had mentioned earlier) so it shouldn't be surprising if some of them struggle early on. Many of these students are sniffing freedom for the first time in their life. What you won't find is them slacking off...the work ethic is engrained in their head. Now, whether their study methods are efficient is a different story all together.

Lastly, the students who do come from abroad are more likely to be from a wealthy household and do decent on the SAT but by no means are they going to be the smartest the country has to offer. Those students stay back in their own country.

Wow, you seem to be the smartest person in the world... to have so much astounding insight into every educational system out there (including EVERYones experience from international to US... including who will or will not slack off). Can I get the lottery numbers for next week?.....

I would make sure and call up the writers of the AP exams and let them know what a "joke" their test is. Don't forget to call them "stupid" before you hang up.

 

[CDI]

Wow, you seem to be the smartest person in the world... to have so much astounding insight into every educational system out there (including EVERYones experience from international to US... including who will or will not slack off). Can I get the lottery numbers for next week?.....

I would make sure and call up the writers of the AP exams and let them know what a "joke" their test is. Don't forget to call them "stupid" before you hang up.

Hard to believe, huh? Did I say anything incorrect which you'd like to point out or are you just looking for some attention here?

People grow up here, and some of us actually know how to speak another language (I know, very un-American of me. We're supposed to be uni-lingual!) so we choose to go overseas for whatever reason (grad school, med school, etc) and eventually may choose to return. There's a world out there believe it or not...

While you're calling them up, tell them they can take the AP Scholar w/ Honors or Distinction or whatever they gave me back as well. Don't need it to keep me warm at night.

 

[CDI]

This type of thinking (bolded above), is the problem with that type of educational system. Where is the creativity? Where do students develop ingenuity? The bottom line is they don't because the system "cuts out" the "unnecessary" stuff like art/art history.

Who says this is unnecessary? The most successful physicians/scientists I have met are not the brightest or the "hardest" studiers . They are the most creative and look at problems in a new/distinct way.

This is the reason, why everyone can complain "how easy" the American system is, however, as a country, we produce more ingenuity in science/medicine than the rest of the world.

It also ensures our doctors aren't robots sent to destroy the future. They actually have interests/personalities.

Btw, I was a biology major but I took a lot of "unnecessary" art classes---and those people studying "hard science" the whole time, are the ones who burnt out before/in med school.

You talk about the American system as it is some sort of exclusive thing. You forget that currently in the US there's an extremely large number of doctors who are born, raised, and 'medically educated' abroad.

The American system depended on them for decades. They don't need creativity or ingenuity to do what they do. They're just hard working doctors trying to make a living.

Chances are regardless of how many arts or drama classes you took, or how high your art IQ is, you're not going to be curing cancer or creating the next miracle drug either. It's great in theory...but clearly not required in terms of getting the most basic job done which is helping out patients in need. I'm sure some do take on the daunting task of advancing healthcare for everyone around them but the majority do not.

And while you ask who says it is "unecessary" to take such classes, what determines that it is in fact "necessary" at all? Is it proven that these courses really make people better in their respective fields later on?

 

[RadOnc04]

Hard to believe, huh? Did I say anything incorrect which you'd like to point out or are you just looking for some attention here?

People grow up here, and some of us actually know how to speak another language (I know, very un-American of me. We're supposed to be uni-lingual!) so we choose to go overseas for whatever reason (grad school, med school, etc) and eventually may choose to return. There's a world out there believe it or not...

While you're calling them up, tell them they can take the AP Scholar w/ Honors or Distinction or whatever they gave me back as well. Don't need it to keep me warm at night.

I am pointing out the fact that you think so highly of yourself that you claim to have knowledge of literally everyone's experiences in undergrad/medical school (regardless of country). This lacks tons of insight on yourself and others *which makes me question any of your claims.

Furthermore, I am "calling you out" on the fact, that you are so self-absorbed, you actually believe that because you think AP classes are worthless they must be worthless also lacks TONS of insight.....regardless, of your "awesome" AP scholar with Honors award.

Finally, for someone as "worldly" as yourself... you seem to have a lot of bias and rhetoric to everything you say. Not the open-mindedness of someone who has traveled and experienced various cultures. And it proves to me, that though you may have been many places, you clearly have not experienced many people/places/cultures.

I wonder if you even bothered to visit an art museum in your worldly adventures...? Or was that not worth your time?

By the way, a lot of medical schools use art in their education. Here was a <5 sec search.

Learning to look: developing clinical observational skills at an art museum
Medical Education
Volume 35, Issue 12, pages 1157–1161, December 2001

There are lots of other examples for your reading pleasure.

 

[CDI]

I am pointing out the fact that you think so highly of yourself that you claim to have knowledge of literally everyone's experiences in undergrad/medical school (regardless of country). This lacks tons of insight on yourself and others *which makes me question any of your claims.

Furthermore, I am "calling you out" on the fact, that you are so self-absorbed, you actually believe that because you think AP classes are worthless they must be worthless also lacks TONS of insight.....regardless, of your "awesome" AP scholar with Honors award.

Finally, for someone as "worldly" as yourself... you seem to have a lot of bias and rhetoric to everything you say. Not the open-mindedness of someone who has traveled and experienced various cultures. And it proves to me, that though you may have been many places, you clearly have not experienced many people/places/cultures.

I wonder if you even bothered to visit an art museum in your worldly adventures...? Or was that not worth your time?

By the way, a lot of medical schools use art in their education. Here was a <5 sec search.

Learning to look: developing clinical observational skills at an art museum
Medical Education
Volume 35, Issue 12, pages 1157&#8211;1161, December 2001

There are lots of other examples for your reading pleasure.

Once again, feel free to point out something I've said which is incorrect. I speak based on my own experiences. Doesn't matter if you believe me or not. I say it as I've seen it.

I've interacted with students in both countries, it's not really complicated and they are not as "foreign" as you may think. (Other than the BCG vaccine scar on their arm. Clinical pearl for you.) Just go up to one of them, they don't bite, really.

Not sure why the quotes around "calling you out", "worldly", "awesome"...or where/how I think so highly of myself. Whatever makes you feel big on the forums I guess..(?)

 

[evilbooyaa]

Indian schooling is absolutely more intensive than US Schooling. However, it is generally quite different in terms of studying methods. In India, students must memorize tons and tons of facts, generally from just reading a textbook. The smartest ones are the ones who can integrate those facts together and form a foundation. The weaker ones are the ones who cannot.

The tests in India are not multiple choice. They are (mostly) all in essay format, and if my relatives' experiences mean anything, you will not get a 100% on the test regardless of what you write. The fact that tests are not MC I believe innately makes them harder when testing scientific knowledge.

To those saying knowledge of art/history/other social information is required to be a good physician, good for you. You agree with the US education system. The Indian education system is just different. US Students who had to undergo the Indian education system (even if they knew the language) starting in 9th grade would struggle heavily. An Indian student who came to the US in 9th grade (assuming they know the language) would likely not struggle as much, at least in science and math courses. Art/History courses, I cannot say.

As to whether Indian medical schools are more rigorous than US Medical schools, I don't know the answer to that. The issue with Indian medical schools is not whether you are getting a good education or not. The issue is that if you are a middling student at an Indian medical school, you are likely not getting a residency in the US. If you are a middling student at a US medical school (not in the Caribbean), you are likely getting a residency in the US (as long as you are reasonable).

 

[link2swim06]

Indian schooling is absolutely more intensive than US Schooling. However, it is generally quite different in terms of studying methods. In India, students must memorize tons and tons of facts, generally from just reading a textbook. The smartest ones are the ones who can integrate those facts together and form a foundation. The weaker ones are the ones who cannot.

The tests in India are not multiple choice. They are (mostly) all in essay format, and if my relatives' experiences mean anything, you will not get a 100% on the test regardless of what you write. The fact that tests are not MC I believe innately makes them harder when testing scientific knowledge.

To those saying knowledge of art/history/other social information is required to be a good physician, good for you. You agree with the US education system. The Indian education system is just different. US Students who had to undergo the Indian education system (even if they knew the language) starting in 9th grade would struggle heavily. An Indian student who came to the US in 9th grade (assuming they know the language) would likely not struggle as much, at least in science and math courses. Art/History courses, I cannot say.

As to whether Indian medical schools are more rigorous than US Medical schools, I don't know the answer to that. The issue with Indian medical schools is not whether you are getting a good education or not. The issue is that if you are a middling student at an Indian medical school, you are likely not getting a residency in the US. If you are a middling student at a US medical school (not in the Caribbean), you are likely getting a residency in the US (as long as you are reasonable).

I disagree with this statement. MC test if written correctly can be much more difficult than free response sections.

Think about a step 1 questions. First you must be able to quickly understand the case/questions. Then it often requires you to piece 2-3 pieces of knowledge together. Finally it requires you often to determine which answer is most relevant between multiple answers which could all be sorta right. If you miss any of those steps then you don't get ANY points.

 

[CDI]

I disagree with this statement. MC test if written correctly can be much more difficult than free response sections.

Think about a step 1 questions. First you must be able to quickly understand the case/questions. Then it often requires you to piece 2-3 pieces of knowledge together. Finally it requires you often to determine which answer is most relevant between multiple answers which could all be sorta right. If you miss any of those steps then you don't get ANY points.

I would agree with that.

 

[DrZed]

Thought I'd chime in.

AP, like every other advance course in high school, varies depending on the teacher and how it was taught. I had a crapload of AP classes back in the day and when I started undergrad, I jumped right into the advance bio courses and orgo chem. Did totally fine. Heck, the first part of orgo was boring since I had already learned most of it. Again, this really does depend on how good of a high school teacher you had. I personally feel that we need better teachers in high school and to make high school teaching a more lucrative job, but that's a different topic so I digress.

Foreign students at the high school level I feel perform higher than US standard. It's during college-time that US students really mature whereas foreign students get shuttled into their respective fields and are kind of locked in with no way of really exploring their passions. I remember in high school, the foreign exchange students we had were insanely smart. Granted there is a selection bias since he did manage to be a foreign exchange student, but I remember he could literally sleep through every class since he had learned all of our material a few years ago.

In college, the foreign students seem to excel in one particular area in their field, but I've seen many show weaknesses when it comes to being well-rounded. For example, one might be able to code like no tomorrow, but when asked to explain the significance of their work, they go blank.

Then again, this is all my personal experiences.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I disagree with this statement. MC test if written correctly can be much more difficult than free response sections.

Think about a step 1 questions. First you must be able to quickly understand the case/questions. Then it often requires you to piece 2-3 pieces of knowledge together. Finally it requires you often to determine which answer is most relevant between multiple answers which could all be sorta right. If you miss any of those steps then you don't get ANY points.

Sure, I'll give you that. Guess what I meant was more of at the high school (and possibly college) level MC questions, which were generally 1st order, rarely second order questions, at least in my experience.

Either that, or I just suck at essay questions. Maybe it's just me.

 

[Direction]

Are an undergraduate and medical degree from the US (7-8 years after high school) and a medical degree from India (4 years after high school) comparable? I don't mean in terms of the ability to be licensed in the United States, but in terms of the education itself.

What are the pros and cons of this system?

My question is, how do the schools in India pack what I believe should be an 7-8 year educational experience in 4 (please pardon my American arrogance)?

Well I am really acquainted with thw American system...
But what I can tell you about is the Indian System
Both the systems have huge diff. like in India studies is pretty much career oriented from the moment you start 11th grade what you guys call Junior yr in America.... we have to choose specific subjects ( physics Chem and biology) which are mandatory for any medical aspirant. For 2 yrs i.e. grade 11th and 12th we study these subs to the same extent which I believe u ppl for 4 yr in pre-med(coz the syllabus for mcat and Neet which admission test for colleges in India is pretty much same and same goes for sample questions from what I have seen ) and yeah its rigorous like we have to contribute atleast 6 hrs of self study on daily basis if we want a decent med school...
After getting in the med school we study for 5.5 yrs(pre clinical,clinical and para clinical training) after which we get the degree for mbbs and we can practice private med then further there is 2 yrs course for PG in which specialisation is done after that we get the md/ms degree which is must for certain fields like cardio neuro and many others....

And if u want to study more in your respective field then there are further options

So yeah thats pretty much it..

Though I believe it would be better if we were provided with some time after the 10th grade (sophomore year) to experience other fields but just for the sake of it. It doesn't create a hurdle in our professional life or personal life or development whatever u wanna call it either.